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Tsavo

I also think if these clubfooted horses are ridden correctly, the mismatch in the shoulders is not very apparent as is the case with this horse. If so, there is the confounder of riding that will figure into your claim about shoulder asymmetry and clubfoot.

Tsavo

Also I don't know how you would rule out any difference in shoulder morphology being due to that slight scoliosis. I don't think these things are separable just thru simple inspection.

Tsavo

Yes on the club side and the stance.

These shoulders are almost matched in my opinion. I suspect any random horse would have a similar amount of mismatch. I thought you were saying there would be a dramatic difference that is outside random noise.

Tsavo

I am addressing your statement that " I did say a club footed horse or one with Hi/LO will ALWAYS have mismatched shoulders because of their grazing stance." These are pictures of an aged horse working at about medium 4-5 days a week. I suspect you would say this horse has matched feet. In...

Tsavo

I scanned a study of 24 horses. I have to find time do a thorough review but with only 24 horses, it is hard to justify the time. Which is the study where they looked at 45,000 horses? Also, is HI/lo the same etiology as acquired clubfoot? It may be unrelated. Stranger things have happened. These ar...

Tsavo

khall wrote:I NEVER said sidedness is causing the stance, sidedness causes the PREFERENCE in the stance.

What causes the stance?

Tsavo

Rosie B wrote:Here's a question: other than for cosmetic reasons, why would you want a club footed horse's front feet to look the same? What impact does evenness of the foot shape have on biomechanics?

I think there is an empirical argument that the horse stays sounder if you don't try to make the hooves match.

Tsavo

I found not only a source but an actual study (none of your sited works are studies but anecdotal beliefs) The Dutch study looking at 24 WB foals. You summarily dismissed said study because it was "only one". Yet they actually observed foals and MEASURED them to come to their conclusions....

Tsavo

Tsavo only if you can prove that horses are not one sided when riding, which we know is false. Horses are born with a distinct sidedness. If sidedness is causing the stance and stance causes the clubfoot then why don't most horses have clubfoot since all horses exhibit sidedness?? You are assuming ...

Tsavo

Rooney also states this... It must be emphasized that much of what is presented here is hypothetical and based on gleaned experience and mechanical principles. There is no experimental data available directly relevant to the questions examined, and it is difficult to conceive of experiments which co...

Tsavo

Here is Rooney claiming genetics AND a tendency for affect the right foot. It is much easier to accept genetics rather than stance to explain RF preponderance (cf. scoliosis preponderance for right thoracic curves and that is genetic). And the environmental fact or he includes is NOT stance but rath...

Tsavo

By the way I am NOT cherry picking articles. I am picking every article I see that addressed the issue. I have not come across a reputable source that claims stance is causing acquired clubfoot. Maybe you can find one.

Tsavo

So what causes that tension leading to the acquired club foot? How would genetics predisposition cause the horse to tighten that unit without outside forces being applied? I could see your point if there was not the issue of the grazing stance, but there is the stance and the one sidedness from tha...

Tsavo

These authors are specifically throwing out the lateralized behavior (stance) as the cause and show a highly significant sidedness... The ratio of right RF UCF to LF UCF was 5%:14% of the population and as a percentage of UCF 75%:25%. This was a highly significant result (²1 16.0556, P < 0.001). The...

Tsavo

Here is Dr. Redden who is a DVM and farrier. No mention of stance. He says there is "enough" evidence that acquired clubfoot in foals is congenital with a strong genetic influence. Radiographs of foals only a few days old suggest that bone angles certainly do not always match, nor does the...

Tsavo

This DVM does mention stance os "postulated" but only AFTER stating a bunch of other things as the cause... http://www.bendequine.com/documents/TheClubFoot.pdf Most club feet develop their abnormal conformation between 1 and 6 months of age and are the result of an acquired flexural deform...

Tsavo

You are deflecting by using HYPP which is a genetic issue, where conformational traits that is being bred for in WBs today are also genetics but leads to WHY the grazing stance is adopted, the long legs. Could the sidedness be genetic predisposed? I don't know, but I do know most horses want to car...

Tsavo

This is University of Minnesota. They do NOT mention grazing stance in re acquired clubfoot. They say it is a genetic condition affecting the rate of bone growth compared the rate of tendon growth... http://www.extension.umn.edu/agriculture/horse/health/club-feet/ Acquired flexural deformities are t...

Tsavo

If I can show that there is a preponderance of acquired clubfoot in one versus the other foot would you agree it is not the stance?

Tsavo

Really give the scoliosis a rest. Humans are not bred for certain traits like horses are. Okay I am just pointing this out because I do not think you are aware of what you are doing here. Your claim here is that club foot in horses can't be like idiopathic scoliosis in humans because horses are bre...

Tsavo

If it was genetic and a growth issue then the foal should show a club foot in both feet, but that is not what happens. What is your evidence for this statement? Why are most clubs on the right? Why do most cases of idiopathic scoliosis entail a right thoracic curve? Do you see the pattern of every ...

Tsavo

Also you don't know what is going on inside the foot that is preceding the outward appearance of the club so again genetics controlling foot development rather than stance cannot be ruled out as the driver.

Tsavo

It sounds like whatever the genetic driver is for the stance which seems to be orthopedic is also driving foot morphology. Again, in perfect analogy with scoliosis, the curvature is one of several symptoms of this genetic condition. The timeline you report strikes me as straight genetic but I would ...

Tsavo

Tsavo except when the grazing stance is disrupted by the cuff/wedge shoe or by cutting the check ligament or as in the Dutch study by feeding foals higher the unevenness is corrected EXCEPT when the conformation of the horse does not allow for the grazing stance to be corrected, i.e. the foal still...

Tsavo

Khall, how can anyone know that the stance is causing the club rather than the forming club (due to genetics) is forcing the stance as the foal searches to get comfortable? Similarly, you would say the poor posture of kids with a growing spinal curve is causing an increase in the curve. We know that...

Tsavo

I would have to look at that article in detail and maybe consult with an expert in that field to comment. Then it would have to be repeated under other circumstances by other researchers. As one article standing alone, it is hard to ascribe much to it. Here is another abstract that tried to tease ou...

Tsavo

Khall, I think you would agree that nobody has ruled out that clubfoot might be just like idiopathic scoliosis in humans. Chisamba made a series of truly excellent points. Maybe she has research training. Also, I do not think any researcher would claim what you are claiming. This is probably more co...

Tsavo

Both of my foals were born totally normal with good conformation in the front hooves. No clubbiness whatsoever. They developed it, hence it is acquired club foot, as they grew and developed the grazing stance. You cannot conclude that just because a condition is not present at birth that it is acqu...

Tsavo

Tsavo umm horses usually have a stiffer side and a "easier" side. See above re gallop etc talking about evenness in rein etc. Much like humans are right or left handed. Makes sense that the horse would put most of their weight on the left shoulder when choosing a grazing stance. Now not a...

Tsavo

I read a long while ago that someone claimed Ridgeway uses crystal therapy. I have avoided him since. If you tell me that is incorrect I will read the article.

Tsavo

Tsavo did you read Dr. Ridgeway's laterality in horses? What I am saying is that the foal is one sided and chooses based on that sidedness (see Ridgeway article) which hoof they keep back, usually the RF. Okay you are saying the sidedness is causing the grazing stance which causes the club. That ma...

Tsavo

Tsavo in the case of foals with acquired club foot it is because they have a short usually higher set neck and long legs like this foal: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=671297212908991&set=pb.100000861553573.-2207520000.1493650364.&type=3&theater This is my Luso filly shortly af...

Tsavo

The grazing stance CAUSES the shoulder asymmetry and club foot, how do I know? Because I have seen it happen with 2 foals I have bred (my farrier agrees with me on this too). What is causing the split stance while grazing if not the shoulder? You are saying they do this before the club foot forms. ...

Tsavo

Does anyone know of any upper level or FEI horses with club foot?

Tsavo

I have wondered if you can straighten a serious club footed horse much at all. Because of the shoulders in a club footed horse are out of wack (one shoved up and other dropped down) from their grazing stance. This is so out of balance how much can lateral work change them? And if it does, will the ...

Tsavo

I think straightness or ability to straighten is a barometer of soundness, not the other way around. I think that would depend on whether one considers an asymmetrical horse unsound. And even then, how asymmetrical would a horse need to be before he was considered unsound? Do you think a club foote...

Tsavo

I also wonder how many of the soundness issues that develop in horses are caused by trying to make them travel straight when they aren't? It's not easy for me to leave it alone because I ride much straighter horses too, and prefer riding a straighter horse, but I've backed off considerably on tryin...

Tsavo

It was heartening to see previcox on the prohibited list. Made me think it would work. I think it did but it took a while to kick in even after the loading dose.

Tsavo

Wow, BMI in high teens! Congratulations. Is that a special fat measurement, or just the one you get from the weight charts? I'm a 23, so on the high side of normal. However, with age, often we don't look so good too thin. I agree with you that riding isn't really fitness exercise. It is better than...

Tsavo

I think riding to stay fit is a chicken-egg type of thing. When I wasn't fit, riding was exercise. It did improve my core somewhat but nowhere near where I am now. I cannot overstate how much easier riding is with massive core strength. Now, riding is in no way exercise despite me balancing in two p...

Tsavo

Very interesting reading the posts in this thread! To the OP... You wrote: "When you feel your horse needs to be retired, will you buy another? Or, is this your last hurrah?" I am in my late 50s and my horse is 20. I will retire my present horse in a few years even if he is sound and buy o...

Tsavo

khall wrote:Debbie M was lawn darted aka sent head first into the ground while riding a young horse. She has not ridden since because of the injuries sustained in the fall.

Has she spoken about the injuries? Do you know the nature of them?

Tsavo

Sue B wrote:Debbie quit because her surgeon was concerned that the next fall could leave her paralyzed.

Why? What was her condition?

Tsavo

Thanks for the PSA, MC!

Tsavo

Also, the post notification doesn't seem to work any more.

Tsavo

Did Debbie McDonald have to stop riding because of a neck issue? Do you know what it was? I think she is not riding any more but I am not sure.

I wonder if the movement during riding or if there would be a catastrophe if she fell off.

Tsavo

Tabby that is so funny about the note! I have had two herniated discs (decades apart) and can tell you what I did but I don't claim my situation is necessarily the same as your. Both were sports injuries but I can't say that heredity didn't play a role in susceptibility because I have read these iss...

Tsavo

What is your exact diagnosis? The state of affairs with chiropractic is that it has only been shown to help with lower back pain (nothing else) but it wasn't superior than PT or medical modalities or massage. Chiropractic is not scientific and so if it appears to works, it works by the the same prin...

Tsavo

MC, that makes some sense. I am willing to sign away my right to sue if they sell me one. LOL. I think the main reason is they want to keep the income stream in the profession. We have all manner of lay horse massagers and even non-vets who claim to be doing chiropractic. Since there is a fairly rig...

Tsavo

My understanding is it can find lameness in more than one leg simultaneously. I am not aware of any other modality that can claim that with any accuracy and repeatability.

I am not sure why they are limiting the sale of this to vets. I disagree with that.

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