No comments?

Josette
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Re: No comments?

Postby Josette » Mon Nov 14, 2016 12:14 pm

Bits - yes, I know because I have a complex medical hx too. They may not exclude us from access but may increase our premiums so high that we would not be able to afford the healthcare insurance. It is discrimination plain and simple.

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Re: No comments?

Postby Tarlo Farm » Mon Nov 14, 2016 3:09 pm

From a very eloquent Angelo Molhem: "If you're a Trump voter who is tired of being called a bigot, if you say you voted for him based on gun rights or economic issues, or because you think Hillary really was that awful, and in spite of his rhetoric, rather than because of it, I believe you. If you're in my life, I clearly don't think you're a vile hateful person. But if you're now watching protests across the country and you don't understand why, or think they are just being sore losers, let me break something down for you. These people aren't just angry or sad that someone they didn't support won the election, they're scared.

They're black Americans who hear talk of law and order and remember a racially charged stop and frisk program, or see an emboldened KKK holding a celebratory parade.

They're Muslim Americans who worry that spitting in their face is now okay and violations of their rights to assemble and their rights to privacy are about to come.

They're LGBT Americans who fear not just of the loss of marriage rights or restaurants gaining the right not to serve them, but of an administration that thinks it's more important to research electrocuting the gay out of them than AIDS.

They're Hispanic and Latino Americans who are scared their children will be bullied in schools, and their families ripped apart while their culture is mocked.

They're women who are wondering if we've normalized groping, and if their career endeavors will be judged by their face and body, and not their minds

I believe you when you say you didn't vote for any of these things. Most of America wasn't thrilled with the choices we had in this election. But If you didn't know that this is why they're protesting, if you think it's really just about free tuition or more government giveaways, then you, like the elite liberals you love to castigate, have also not been listening. If you're tired of being called a bigot, then you need to use the same voice you used on Tuesday and speak out against these things fully and clearly. It's not enough that you didn't say them yourself. You need to reassure your friends and family members who feel like they no longer have a seat at the table that you still stand with them, even if your priorities were different on Tuesday. If you aren't willing to do that, then you have no right to call for unity."

stella
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Re: No comments?

Postby stella » Tue Nov 15, 2016 3:15 am

The bigotry thing is a big deal for me. If you knowingly voted for a bigot, you condone bigotry. It's not about guns or jobs or the economy. It's about hate. And it's not going away. He's lining his cabinet with the alt-right.

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Re: No comments?

Postby khall » Tue Nov 15, 2016 1:48 pm

stella I am right there with you. Living in a red state has been hard this election, so much hate and bigotry that is out there and they wrap themselves in their "Christian beliefs" to explain their choice. I am just thankful that my immediate family all are liberals of one form or the other.

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Re: No comments?

Postby KathyK » Tue Nov 15, 2016 6:11 pm

It's about hate and ignorance. Trump made himself quite clear. Anyone who voted for him voted for hate, racism, bigotry, xenophobia (yes, there really is such a thing), misogyny, and religious intolerance.

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Re: No comments?

Postby amygdala » Fri Nov 18, 2016 4:28 am

judging by the people DT is surrounding himself with, what he meant by'drain the swamp'
is hire the alligators!

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Re: No comments?

Postby KathyK » Fri Nov 18, 2016 1:58 pm

He lied throughout his entire campaign, and enough people were gleefully willing to believe him that they get him elected. We will all suffer. Unless you're a wealthy -- very wealthy -- white person. You'll be just fine.

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Re: No comments?

Postby WheresMyWhite » Fri Nov 18, 2016 4:22 pm

KathyK wrote:He lied throughout his entire campaign, and enough people were gleefully willing to believe him that they get him elected. We will all suffer. Unless you're a wealthy -- very wealthy -- white person. You'll be just fine.


And as I've said more than once... perhaps not that people believed DT or thought he was an angel but that they though he was better than the alternative.

Doesn't mean either side is "right" or "wrong" or that anybody is stupid or ignorant... they just believe and think differently than you do.

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Re: No comments?

Postby goldhorse » Fri Nov 18, 2016 5:03 pm

I know a Chinese-American young lady who was harassed in Boston last weekend. She was called a chink and told to go back to China. When I told this story to a Trump supporter, he said "That's not racism. That's just being rude." :roll: Coming out of the mouth of white male privilege.

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Re: No comments?

Postby KathyK » Fri Nov 18, 2016 6:07 pm

WheresMyWhite wrote:
KathyK wrote:He lied throughout his entire campaign, and enough people were gleefully willing to believe him that they get him elected. We will all suffer. Unless you're a wealthy -- very wealthy -- white person. You'll be just fine.


And as I've said more than once... perhaps not that people believed DT or thought he was an angel but that they though he was better than the alternative.

Do you understand how preposterous that is? The rallying cry against Clinton was that she was a liar. But for Trump to lie (lies PROVEN through video multiple times), well, that was just fine. Your justifications, which you certainly have stated more than once, are as stale as last week's bread.

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Re: No comments?

Postby kande50 » Fri Nov 18, 2016 6:36 pm

WheresMyWhite wrote:
And as I've said more than once... perhaps not that people believed DT or thought he was an angel but that they though he was better than the alternative.


Those I've talked to who voted Trump are convinced that Hillary is a much bigger, badder liar than he is, has committed much worse crimes and is way more dangerous. I'm a bit suspicious that they're either not stating why, or aren't aware of why they've chosen to believe that, but who can know what people really think?

OTOH, I don't think they can understand my thought processes either, although I'm not sure what they think my motivation might be for believing what I believe? Maybe they think I only voted for Hillary because I wanted a woman to be president, and that's why I was willing to overlook all the horrible things they think she's done? Who knows?

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Re: No comments?

Postby amygdala » Fri Nov 18, 2016 10:53 pm

when asked about some DT non-truth, newt gingrich said it wasn't a lie, it was a 'campaign device'.
thanks for clearing that up for me, newt

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Re: No comments?

Postby Tarlo Farm » Wed Nov 23, 2016 12:05 am

Multiple sites determined 28% of the things HRC said were lies, compared to 63% of the things DT said. And now, as he steps back from promise after promise after promise, more items are now identified as lies.

People were frustrated and angry with the lack of progress coming from Washington DC. Unfortunately, WAY too many of those people were ignorant of the truth and of the ways of politics. For instance; people who didn't know the GOP has controlled Congress for the past six years, people who didn't know Congress was actually two parts - a House and a Senate, people who hadn't cared enough to vote their entire lives until they were 49, 59, 63... These people didn't/don't care about the truth, they're just mad.

And scared. They're ignorant of the ways of the world, don't see the jobs he promised to bring back are actually now done by robots, don't understand the facts of trade and globalism, and haven't a clue of the intricacies of history of the Middle East. (I don't understand that one either) Their lack of understanding of the big - HUGE - picture made them willing to throw the baby out with the bath water. God save us.

I held it together until Thursday after the election when I dropped something on my head while on a ladder. I came down off the ladder, crumpled on the ground and started sobbing. It hurt, but mostly I was just wrecked. I kept saying over and over again, "How am I going to protect my friends?" And it was the ethereal "friends", not just my gay friends and people of color I know, but ALL my "friends". We may be in big trouble.

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Re: No comments?

Postby boots-aregard » Wed Nov 23, 2016 1:52 am

WheresMyWhite wrote:
KathyK wrote:He lied throughout his entire campaign, and enough people were gleefully willing to believe him that they get him elected. We will all suffer. Unless you're a wealthy -- very wealthy -- white person. You'll be just fine.


And as I've said more than once... perhaps not that people believed DT or thought he was an angel but that they though he was better than the alternative.

Doesn't mean either side is "right" or "wrong" or that anybody is stupid or ignorant... they just believe and think differently than you do.


People have different values, and basic Republican values versus Democratic Values (just to pick an axis) aren't, strictly speaking "right or wrong".

But beyond that statement, sorry, you are wrong. MANY people are stupid. MANY people are ignorant. MANY people are fearful, MANY people are mean. Many other people are intelligent, well educated, fearless, or kind, just to name the other ends of the extremes. We observe these continuums in a whole HOST of examples from horse training to relationship choices to car purchases to child rearing, to anything else you care to name. So, to say somehow these same factors don't play out in an election is truly hiding your head in the sand.

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Re: No comments?

Postby kande50 » Wed Nov 23, 2016 11:38 am

boots-aregard wrote:
But beyond that statement, sorry, you are wrong. MANY people are stupid. MANY people are ignorant. MANY people are fearful, MANY people are mean. Many other people are intelligent, well educated, fearless, or kind, just to name the other ends of the extremes.


Except those are all value judgements too, and whether someone characterizes another as any of them depends more on their own values and perspectives than on reality.

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Re: No comments?

Postby KathyK » Fri Nov 25, 2016 12:42 am

kande50 wrote:
boots-aregard wrote:
But beyond that statement, sorry, you are wrong. MANY people are stupid. MANY people are ignorant. MANY people are fearful, MANY people are mean. Many other people are intelligent, well educated, fearless, or kind, just to name the other ends of the extremes.


Except those are all value judgements too, and whether someone characterizes another as any of them depends more on their own values and perspectives than on reality.

Recognizing meanness and fearfulness are not value judgments, and neither is recognizing being well educated.

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Re: No comments?

Postby WheresMyWhite » Fri Nov 25, 2016 1:13 am

boots-aregard wrote:But beyond that statement, sorry, you are wrong. MANY people are stupid. MANY people are ignorant. MANY people are fearful, MANY people are mean. Many other people are intelligent, well educated, fearless, or kind, just to name the other ends of the extremes.


Which I would not disagree. But I guess my point is these attributes transcend party lines. As long as one believes that one's own party are smarter or more well educated, etc than the other party, no progress will be made.

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Re: No comments?

Postby boots-aregard » Fri Nov 25, 2016 6:04 am

kande50 wrote:
boots-aregard wrote:
But beyond that statement, sorry, you are wrong. MANY people are stupid. MANY people are ignorant. MANY people are fearful, MANY people are mean. Many other people are intelligent, well educated, fearless, or kind, just to name the other ends of the extremes.


Except those are all value judgements too, and whether someone characterizes another as any of them depends more on their own values and perspectives than on reality.


For me, as an individual to decide person X over there is "stupid" because they did activity Z, yes, that's an opinion.

However, it is a FACT that intelligence spreads itself upon a bell curve. So it is a FACT that there are many stupid people just as there are many smart people, and an even bigger many people in the middle between the two extremes.

So, no, those aren't value judgements. Those are factual statements about the world. Not all qualities lie upon bell curves, but all the qualities mentioned so far are indeed continuums. It isn't necessary for you or for me to inflict our judgement about Sally over there one way or another for you and me to recognize that these continuums exist.

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Re: No comments?

Postby boots-aregard » Fri Nov 25, 2016 6:11 am

WheresMyWhite wrote:
boots-aregard wrote:But beyond that statement, sorry, you are wrong. MANY people are stupid. MANY people are ignorant. MANY people are fearful, MANY people are mean. Many other people are intelligent, well educated, fearless, or kind, just to name the other ends of the extremes.


Which I would not disagree. But I guess my point is these attributes transcend party lines. As long as one believes that one's own party are smarter or more well educated, etc than the other party, no progress will be made.


Progress isn't made on the basis of an individual's belief about their party's superiority, true. A party is far bigger than one person.

But we don't judge progress, either, very well in the 'now'. History judges progress. It's far easier to judge lack of progress. As we will all have the opportunity to observe in the next few years. The whys about that will be the theme of many future wrangles.

I don't understand, though, the constant insistence on stating that all sides are "the same". That in all conflicts, everyone is "equal", That each side is equally culpable or honorable. These are all claims of values and folks simply aren't going to believe that what they believe is equal (though completely opposed to) what their opposition believes. They are going to prefer their values and think they are better, or why would they bother even having an opinion?

You cannot equalize people's opinions by continuing to insist everybody is the same.

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Re: No comments?

Postby kande50 » Fri Nov 25, 2016 10:57 am

boots-aregard wrote:However, it is a FACT that intelligence spreads itself upon a bell curve. So it is a FACT that there are many stupid people just as there are many smart people, and an even bigger many people in the middle between the two extremes.


The problem is, which criteria should we use to decide who is smarter?


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