No comments?

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No comments?

Postby VBOpie » Wed Nov 09, 2016 2:46 pm

I don't usually come here, but I wanted to see what DDBBers thought about the election results. The silence here is deafening!

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Re: No comments?

Postby Saddlebum » Wed Nov 09, 2016 3:12 pm

Devastated. Made a decision this am not to think, talk or hear about politics for 4 years. Yup, going to stay low and hibernate, bless me.

Talked with a woman last week who was going to vote for T. and I asked her why. Said she could not vote for H. because she didn't leave her husband when he was in office and was going out on her. Devastated me. Too much stupidity for me.

The amount of ignorance combined with fear is overwhelming in this country. I saw Trumpland the movie by M. Moore and it was Great. He demonstrated empathy for Republicans in the movie while still getting his points across.

One point he made clear is the hate mongering is going to come to an end with the 18-35 yo's coming up into their places in politics. They are more consciously aware.

hunkering down...

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Re: No comments?

Postby Chancellor » Wed Nov 09, 2016 3:13 pm

We are all preparing for the apocalypse.

As for Michael Moore demonstrating empathy for Republicans, I cannot believe that. MM is a complete ASS!

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Re: No comments?

Postby VBOpie » Wed Nov 09, 2016 4:01 pm

I have an acquaintance in the horse world who is pretty conservative. One of her friends posted that "the B left is incapable of tolerance." - this, from the party that wants to build a wall and deport everyone!

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Re: No comments?

Postby VBOpie » Wed Nov 09, 2016 4:02 pm

Sorry, no "B" before left - typo

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Re: No comments?

Postby Tabby » Wed Nov 09, 2016 4:59 pm

The political forum has been quiet for some time. My theory on it is that the regulars who used to come here enjoyed lively discussions on different policies, platforms, and issues. It was a good place to get an intelligent explanation from someone of different political stripes from yourself. The fact that we did not agree all the time was what made it interesting. When the Trump train started really rolling, I think we all agreed it was a wreck waiting to happen. There was nothing even TO discuss since all he ever did was bully and insult everyone. He flip flopped on so many policy statements the only things people expect him to do now are the ridiculous ones. He isn't really republican or democrat or even any of the fringe parties. Frankly, we all pretty much agreed so there wasn't anything left to say. There is a bit of discussion happening in the Go Vote thread but that's also new.

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Re: No comments?

Postby Tarlo Farm » Wed Nov 09, 2016 5:43 pm

I'm sick and sad. We are a deeply troubled country and now in deep trouble. However, I've been saying for three months now we needed to see a landslide, or he had to win by a nose. His winning is the only way the trumpettes will begin to understand what we've been saying about him: the racism, the hate, the misogyny, the jobs that have in fact been lost to robotics and are not coming back to those not educated enough to run them, the rising oceans... the list goes on and on. If we survive nuclear weapons proliferation and WWIII that will be waged in the Middle East in the upcoming years, we'll be lucky. I honestly thought this morning, "So this is how it ends."

Has everyone seen "Idiocracy"? Here we are. I honestly had a crying jag this morning.

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Re: No comments?

Postby Ponichiwa » Wed Nov 09, 2016 5:53 pm

Saddlebum wrote:One point he made clear is the hate mongering is going to come to an end with the 18-35 yo's coming up into their places in politics. They are more consciously aware.


I hope you're right, but don't forget that the majority of the Gamergate/Mens Rights Activisists/etc. are under 35.

Bigotry knows no age limitations, I'm afraid.

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Re: No comments?

Postby texsuze » Wed Nov 09, 2016 6:46 pm

My hope is that both the current health care system and tax system can see some sorely needed improvements during Trump's tenure (cringe as I type..). My fear is that all the important steps we've managed to take in placing some priority on recognizing climate change and on placing value on the natural world here on Earth will be stomped underneath Trump's golf shoes.

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Re: No comments?

Postby Koolkat » Wed Nov 09, 2016 6:55 pm

Although not entirely a fan of Hillary, I did feel like she was at least, qualified for the job. Not so Trump.

There was even a story last night that "his people" had approached "Pence's people" about taking over some policy issues. When asked which ones, the answer was "domestic and foreign". . . . Trump wanted his job to be making America great again, a cheer leading figurehead, of sorts (was this somewhat how Reagan played?).

Given Trump's propensity to be a loose cannon, I have to assume the true holders of Republican party power (whoever the people behind the scenes are) will to some degree give him his wish. That could work both ways.

No drama Obama gave a thoughtful and forward looking reaction this morning. I'm going to miss that guy.

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Re: No comments?

Postby WheresMyWhite » Wed Nov 09, 2016 7:53 pm

Saddlebum wrote:The amount of ignorance combined with fear is overwhelming in this country.


Just because people didn't agree with your choice doesn't mean they are ignorant any more than HRC supporters are ignorant.

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Re: No comments?

Postby Ryeissa » Wed Nov 09, 2016 7:57 pm

.
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Re: No comments?

Postby Chancellor » Wed Nov 09, 2016 8:14 pm

WheresMyWhite wrote:
Saddlebum wrote:The amount of ignorance combined with fear is overwhelming in this country.


Just because people didn't agree with your choice doesn't mean they are ignorant any more than HRC supporters are ignorant.


I tend to agree with Saddlebum WMW and you know that you and I both lean to the right :-)

There is a lot of ignorance and fear in the country. And I think that the media is a big part of the problem. Fear gets ratings. Highly rated television news programs get more advertising dollars.
I've been saying this for a very long time. It's ALSO why I think Pit bulls are vilified in the media. For ratings.
Too many people think that the news is reporting NEWS and in fact, they are reporting to get better RATINGS.

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Re: No comments?

Postby Baroque » Wed Nov 09, 2016 8:19 pm

Prepare for the apocalypse! :roll:

We hear there are lots of US citizens thinking of emigrating to Canada, New Zealand and Australia.

We have a nice climate, lots of horses and open spaces and life is pretty good here. :lol:

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Re: No comments?

Postby Chancellor » Wed Nov 09, 2016 8:33 pm

Baroque wrote:Prepare for the apocalypse! :roll:

We hear there are lots of US citizens thinking of emigrating to Canada, New Zealand and Australia.

We have a nice climate, lots of horses and open spaces and life is pretty good here. :lol:


Yeah but you have all those poisonous animals there.

Plus I am not sure New Zealand is far enough away :-)

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Re: No comments?

Postby silk » Wed Nov 09, 2016 9:06 pm

We have only one poisonous creature, which is a spider that's so rare most Kiwis will never ever encounter one (Katipo). It only exists in certain parts of the country, to boot.
Then we have a host of flightless, defenceless, critically-endangered birds and whatnot.

Australia, on the other hand... they have spiny bitey toothy poisonous dangerous things in spades.

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Re: No comments?

Postby galopp » Wed Nov 09, 2016 9:51 pm

The amount of ignorance combined with fear is overwhelming in this country.
But it is true that the majority voting for him are those with (at best) a HS education and male. And he did play on fear (of those any minority or perceived threat). What we need is EVERYONE to VOTE. I am conservative, but I voted against someone rather than for someone. And those who voted third party could have carried another to the presidency. Interesting too the HC won the popular vote. (And for what it is worth, I do know him, and he is the back end of a horse.)

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Re: No comments?

Postby stella » Wed Nov 09, 2016 11:12 pm

There are people that did not do their part and get out and vote and SHAME ON THEM.

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Re: No comments?

Postby WheresMyWhite » Wed Nov 09, 2016 11:56 pm

galopp wrote: But it is true that the majority voting for him are those with (at best) a HS education and male.


Really, do you have actual statistics to back up this statement given that he is within 1% of the popular vote (with over 120M cast) and the majority that voted for him were male with, a best, a high school education???

I would say ignorance on all sides of the table combined with fear. Most people are very good at making decisions based on emotions and not as good at making decisions based on actual fact and research... (I talking about the general populace :) ).

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Re: No comments?

Postby Chisamba » Thu Nov 10, 2016 12:06 am

I am optimistic about the new president, i am optimistic about Americans choice, the fact that people got to vote, and that the election is over.

I am gleeful, cheerful and thrilled that the media got the come uppance it deserves. I agree with this Michael Wolff perspective:
And it was a failure of modern journalistic technique too. It was the day the data died. All of the money poured by a financially challenged media industry into polls and polling analysis was for naught. It profoundly misinformed. It created a compelling and powerful narrative that was the opposite of what was actually happening. There may be few instances, except perhaps under authoritarian regimes, where the media has so successfully propounded a view of events not only of its own making but at such odds with reality. Trump is a simple proof: forget polls — they say what you want them to say.

And then there was the wholesale destruction of what is perhaps the most important media assumption: that advertising matters. A not inconsiderable portion of the profitability of most media companies comes from the extra many billions of dollars that’s poured into local television every four years. Clinton spent the usual quota (buying, for instance, almost 80 percent of the more than 120,000 campaigns ads during the general election in Florida), Trump only a fraction thereof, redefining not only how to run for office, but the symbiotic relationship of the media to politics.

I happen to like Americans more than most of you seem to. I think their election of Trump was not for bigotry or hatred or any of the things you seem to think. I think it was the flip side of the same coin that made Bernie popular. It was anti establishment, anti both parties, ( because yes, when the Republican party tried to kick Trump down, his popularity rose. when media, " hollywood" celebrities and such tried to kick him down, his support rose more. Yes, i did not expect him to win, and yes I was sure he started his campaign as a bit of a prank, but it seems i was wrong on both counts, but i still choose to be optimistic.

I am optimistic because it was a kick against media and party politics
I am optimistic because I think his style of leadership is to appoint people very good at what they do, and have them do it. This is believe it or not, how Abraham lincoln lead. Not expecting to be an expert at everything, simply expecting to be able to find some one who is an expert at something to do that particular job.
I am optimistic because i live in the USA, i choose to stay here, and the American people i meet on a day to day basis are diverse, different, complex and hard working, and i respect that.
I really do dislike political systems, but there are weaknesses and strengths in the many different systems around the world. I happen to think that a system that allows people to voice their opinion through a vote is a good system.
I was surprised by the outcome. I did not think that Mr Trump could upset the apple cart. I did think that for all the things I disliked about Hillary ( life long political establishmentalist) that the USA would finally have a female president.

I was hurt and upset when she did not have the fortitude to go to the Javetts center herself, and thank her supporters. It did not represent the strength i thought a woman should have under the circumstances, and it really did turn my opinion against her finally and fully. Her excellent concession speech given later in the day did not comfort or impress me sufficiently to overcome that distaste i felt when Podesta dismissed her supporters.

Yes, i was up all night, and by eight am, there had still not been a word from Hillary herself. as a woman, i expected better of her, and realize that in reality, she does not represent me in any way, simply because we share the same gender. Of course, nor does Mr Trump, but hey, there is balance in the system.

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Re: No comments?

Postby WheresMyWhite » Thu Nov 10, 2016 12:19 am

WheresMyWhite wrote:
galopp wrote: But it is true that the majority voting for him are those with (at best) a HS education and male.


Really, do you have actual statistics to back up this statement given that he is within 1% of the popular vote (with over 120M cast) and the majority that voted for him were male with, a best, a high school education??


And after further reflection (as statements like this can tend to drive me crazy ;) ).

You are saying (and yes, playing a slight with numbers) that 25% of 120M voters were males with only a HS education???

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Re: No comments?

Postby Briarwood » Thu Nov 10, 2016 12:39 am

Trump's vile rhetoric empowered the bigots, racists, KKK supporters, and like-wise minded people. I know they have always been here, but it is/was disturbing that they are/were so encouraged by him.

I was never an enthusiastic Clinton supporter, but felt that she was the only option in this election for the future of the country and the positive changes that have been made with regard to women's rights and civil rights.

And one question I would really like answered: How many of those who supported him can afford to stay at one of his hotels? Or will ever be able to do so at any time in the future. (Guess I had 2 questions!)

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Re: No comments?

Postby Rhianon » Thu Nov 10, 2016 7:05 am

What scares me most is that this xenophobic cowardice seems to be a world-wide phenomenon at that moment.

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Re: No comments?

Postby Chisamba » Thu Nov 10, 2016 8:52 am

You know that Xenophobic is not a real thing? Its a political term coined to insult people who are not liberal, and who do not want to be part of a world order.

Not every person who believes in ownership is " "xenophobic."
Lets make a metaphor. I bought a horse, she was fat, lame and untrained. Now she is sound rideable and beautiful. She is my horse. It took the skills of many to help me with the transformation. A vet, a farrier, a dentist, an acupuncturist. I buy formulated food, prepared by nutritionists. I use supplements and medicines prepared by researchers and chemists. I still feel like she is my horse. I do not plan to sell her and would be exceptionally insulted if some one took her and rode her. I call this ownership.

Okay now if she were " my country" not my horse, you would be calling me a Xenophobe.

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Re: No comments?

Postby Ponichiwa » Thu Nov 10, 2016 12:51 pm

You can have pride in your country and still welcome (or not hate/fear/etc.) people from other backgrounds and other nationalities.

But we do live in a connected world. More so every day, actually. A country like the US can't sit in the sun in its own back yard and ignore the rest of the world-- for one, we've got too many bases in too many countries to do that. Even small businesses are global nowadays thanks to Etsy and Ebay (for example). Your horse is mobile; if you don't like where she is you can move her. Your horse has limited exposure to other people; your decisions regarding her care do not have ripple-on affects to, for example, other riders or other horses. That's not the case with the US.

Seems like quite a few countries are pulling back to populism. Brexit, Poland, Greece, France, Germany. Russia's been there for years. Everyone is reacting in fear that their way of life is being lost. So pull back, don't get involved, protect your own. And then what? What happens after that?

Fearful horses are over-reactive. Fearful dogs bite. What do fearful countries do?

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Re: No comments?

Postby piedmontfields » Thu Nov 10, 2016 1:42 pm

Ponichiwa wrote: Seems like quite a few countries are pulling back to populism. Brexit, Poland, Greece, France, Germany. Russia's been there for years. Everyone is reacting in fear that their way of life is being lost. So pull back, don't get involved, protect your own. And then what? What happens after that?

Fearful horses are over-reactive. Fearful dogs bite. What do fearful countries do?


We for sure are in troubling global times.

In the US, I anticipate that those who are hurting the most now will hurt even more in 4 years. That is deeply worrying. I know it is hard for people who feel hurt and disconnected to imagine that things can get worse, but history (and contemporary life) has shown us that is very possible. I am also very concerned that our window to actually make a difference on global warming and climate change is just about gone.

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Re: No comments?

Postby PaulaO » Thu Nov 10, 2016 7:08 pm

I hate Trump with the heat of 1,000 Kenner Easy Bake Ovens. Period, end of discussion. I'm ashamed of this country and refuse to think of him as "my president." I used to believe that the office should be respected regardless of who was in it, but I no longer believe that.

Four years from now, I want the unemployed sheet metal worker from Youngstown Ohio to come forward and tell me he got his job back because of Trump.

And shame on those who did not vote.

Flame suit on. You wanted some pot stirring? There it is.

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Re: No comments?

Postby Tarlo Farm » Thu Nov 10, 2016 9:54 pm

WheresMyWhite wrote:
Saddlebum wrote:The amount of ignorance combined with fear is overwhelming in this country.


Just because people didn't agree with your choice doesn't mean they are ignorant any more than HRC supporters are ignorant.



True. However, I know two people - and heard others quoted on NPR - who had never voted before. They were/are in the age range of 50-70. They registered to vote for the GOP candidate. In one case, the person didn't know there was a House and a Senate. In two cases, at least, they didn't know the GOP has controlled Congress for six years. That's beyond ignorant into stupid. And it is stupid that put him over the top. Rural, white, males. People who are afraid the world around them is changing. I just hope it doesn't change into something resembling the rubble of Heroshima and Nagasaki before the GOP candidate is removed.

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Re: No comments?

Postby Josette » Fri Nov 11, 2016 12:26 am

Tarlo Farm wrote: That's beyond ignorant into stupid. And it is stupid that put him over the top. Rural, white, males. People who are afraid the world around them is changing. I just hope it doesn't change into something resembling the rubble of Heroshima and Nagasaki before the GOP candidate is removed.


I walk with some lovely people at a local park who are hard-core supporters of DT. What surprises me is how much they rely on FaceBook instead of researching information from various News sites. One claimed the news sites were all rigged and biased against DT. They did not have any real interest in his agenda for the country - but that he was sometimes rude (but that's because he's a NYer). :roll: It was all about how much they "hated" HC and she was crooked. None of them were very knowledgeable about any of the real issues. None discussed what was really important to them as in healthcare, protect environment, jobs for their kids..... Yes - ignorance and lack of understanding the issues and how each candidate wanted to address it was not considered. It was based on a like/hate vote without validation to back it up. :(

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Re: No comments?

Postby goldhorse » Fri Nov 11, 2016 2:53 am

This morning I got really really scared. I live in Berkeley. Probably the most liberal city in the entire United States. I was talking to a neighbor who volunteers at one of the elementary schools in the "poor" area. It has a disproportionate number of minorities and immigrants. She is very fond of a 7 year old from Yemen. The kid's mother doesn't speak English and the father only speaks broken English. The family is talking about moving back to Yemen because they feel it is safer than here. Safer than f'in Berkeley? :shock: They want to take their chances with war and bombing rather than remain here? God help us all :(

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Re: No comments?

Postby WheresMyWhite » Fri Nov 11, 2016 5:07 am

Tarlo Farm and Josette, are they flat out ignorant or because they are also GOP? And if GOP, how do you know there aren't also HRC supporters who are also just as ignorant?? A liberal media isn't going to be so quick to point out if there are any or not. I can easily see many HRC supports using FB as their primary source of election information.

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Re: No comments?

Postby Literiding » Fri Nov 11, 2016 12:29 pm

The preamble of the United States Constitution begins:

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Abraham Lincoln's Gettysburg Address (there are several different versions, but the text considered authoritative) ends:

. . . and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.

"People" in these documents can be defined as "those eligible to vote." In the days when these documents were written, the eligibility to vote generally required, 1) be a citizen of the U.S., 2) be male, 3) own real property, 4) not have voting privileges revoked because of unlawful activities. While the requirement to be male is typical 18th and 19th century male chauvinism, the requirement to own real property, a house, farm or other tangible property fixed to the land, was considered a test of a potential voter's stability and reliability. Individual mortgages were virtually unheard of before the 1950's and when you bought a house or farm, you paid the full cash value at closing. There was an exception for those claiming land under the Homestead Act which required living on and improving a parcel of land for a year in order to gain title to the land. So it took a lot of perseverance and dedication to own one's home. As a result the electorate tended to be quite conservative. Liberal/Progressives started advancing the concept of universal suffrage about the middle part of the 19th century and by the end of the 19th century and the first half of the 20th century, universal suffrage was a standard "plank" in the Democratic Party's platform. Women's suffrage didn't occur until 1920 and there has been a gradual but continuous increasing the right of suffrage to people and relaxing any restrictions on that right including modern day Democrats:

http://pilotonline.com/news/government/ ... 53b1f.html

Most rights and privileges that are granted by government require competency test, for example, you better have a driver's license to operate a motor vehicle on the highways and byways of the country. Doctors have to have a medical license granted by the State Board governing the practice of medicine. But the Democratic party has routinely opposed any conditions to exercising the right to vote and making sure those granted suffrage understood the responsibility.

So the Democratic Party "reaped what they sowed" and have little recourse to complain about those who exercised their right to vote without "due diligence."
Last edited by Literiding on Fri Nov 11, 2016 12:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: No comments?

Postby Josette » Fri Nov 11, 2016 12:36 pm

The park walkers are GOP with comments about hating HC and how terrible Obama was as a president. None mentioned other sites for news information. I choose not to use FB and jump around to various news sites for information and read up on topics of interest. It seems like the conversations were just about negative statements DT said about HC - not about the issues or inquiring now how exactly is he going to do that - make America great again? He tossed out vague statements about jobs, healthcare, etc. I guess he still has to figure it out.

Also, I do think there are older male white voters who will not vote for a woman president. Look at the red states like FL, GA, SC, AZ have the highest population of retirees - elderly wife will likely vote same as husband too IMO.
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Re: No comments?

Postby TeresaA » Fri Nov 11, 2016 2:26 pm

Zipping up my flame suit.

I was surprised at how strong my reaction was to the result. After all it's not my country. Although I believe that the US is a wonderful country and I have always enjoyed travelling there.

I did some soul searching to figure out why and realized that people were willing to accept bigotry, hate and misogyny to get reforms. To me that was appalling.

The trains ran on time under Nazi rule. What was a little genocide if that made the country great again? I hope that that is not the trend for your beautiful country and the hate crimes that are being reported are an aberration and will subside

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Re: No comments?

Postby Tabby » Fri Nov 11, 2016 2:33 pm

TeresaA wrote:I did some soul searching to figure out why and realized that people were willing to accept bigotry, hate and misogyny to get reforms. To me that was appalling.

This is exactly my feeling. Did we learn nothing from the past? I truly hope that history won't repeat itself but the current wave of protests on one side and crowing on the other doesn't sit well in my stomach. But Brexit also elicited similar reactions and now it seems to have settled down. Maybe that will happen here as well. But it doesn't change my deep sadness that I can never tell my daughter with a straight face that it's truly unacceptable for a man, especially one of power, to grope her or treat her in a disrespectful way. Apparently, that's not really all that bad at all. I feel for the young women of her generation.

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Re: No comments?

Postby PaulaO » Fri Nov 11, 2016 3:16 pm

Literiding, please explain your post. I don't understand what you are saying. You state "But the Democratic party has routinely opposed any conditions to exercising the right to vote and making sure those granted suffrage understood the responsibility.

So the Democratic Party "reaped what they sowed" and have little recourse to complain about those who exercised their right to vote without "due diligence.""

Are you saying that Democrats made sure more people are allowed to vote, then complain about the outcome? What's wrong with that? Democrats are championing the right to vote. Complaining about the outcome is non-partisian.

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Re: No comments?

Postby WheresMyWhite » Fri Nov 11, 2016 3:52 pm

Literiding wrote:Most rights and privileges that are granted by government require competency test, for example, you better have a driver's license to operate a motor vehicle on the highways and byways of the country. Doctors have to have a medical license granted by the State Board governing the practice of medicine.


I would nit pick a bit here. Yes, privileges granted are often accompanied by some type of "qualification" requirements... driver's license, medical license, attorney license, etc. These are all *privileges". Rights as conferred by the Constitution do not typically require any type of license or permit etc unless some local jurisdiction chooses to (say a permit to hold a large gathering on a public street and the would be a permit for the gathering, not the words that come out of peoples' mouths).

A right is very different than privilege and should not really, IMO, be lumped together.

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Re: No comments?

Postby Tarlo Farm » Fri Nov 11, 2016 6:26 pm

I've been thinking I might not be opposed to everyone having to pass the same test as new citizens do, to be able to vote. A little background and knowledge in civics and the Houses of government isn't a bad thing.

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Re: No comments?

Postby khall » Fri Nov 11, 2016 8:11 pm

Tarlo, yeah I can get on board with that!!

WMW comments like these "I can easily see many HRC supports using FB as their primary source of election information." are uncalled for IMO. I am a HRC supporter and I know how to do research, especially this day and age. What I have seen from many if not all Republicans or conservatives is just looking at conservative websites like redstate or drudge report. I always look at the source and see if I can find multiple sources with the same info before believing what I read. Do your due diligence and try to understand all POVs.

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Re: No comments?

Postby Tabby » Fri Nov 11, 2016 9:37 pm

I actually found this election to have the fewest political FB postings ever. It started out normal, but the more ridiculous Trump became, the fewer the posts. I think the right were a little embarrassed and the left simply didn't know what to say. All the political FB posts were recaps of comedians and SNL etc. No serious messages of any kind from either side.

It is, of course, very different post-election. Unfortunately. I don't recall it being this bad previously.

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Re: No comments?

Postby Literiding » Fri Nov 11, 2016 11:28 pm

For PaulaO,

Since I don't have a snowball's chance in the proverbial place of changing your mind or having a meaningful discussion, I'm going to leave my statement as it is. I posted it before my first cup of coffee this morning. Normally I leave these things alone. As long as someone respects my opinion, I respect their opinion regardless of how different it is from mine. So far, in the approximately 240 years the United States has been functioning, things have worked out in the long run.

For WheresMyWhite,

You are absolutely correct. A "privilege" can be revoked by a bureaucrat in the DMV where as a "right" can only be revoked by a court. But at the citizen level, there is little difference, it's still someone in government! <G>

It would have been interesting to see how HRC would have approached the implementation of her plank item regarding the rights that are conferred by Fourth Amendment. She maintained the Supreme Court erred in their ruling which allowed citizens in good standing own firearms. I would suspect that the Fourth Amendment right is the individual right that is most often lost and never restored. While it has been many years since I bought a firearm, it is a very bureaucratic exercise with background checks and waiting periods, etc. I bought a .45 ACP pistol because the Navy wouldn't pay to train me to shoot the gun and I was managing a nuclear weapons security detail that carried them. Good leadership requires that I have the same qualifications as my subordinates. Also, when an officer is sent ashore in a "hostile" area, the Navy issues the officer a handgun while the enlisted get an assault rifle or shotgun. I wanted to have some confidence that I could actually hit something with it should I find myself in a situation packing a .45 Automatic. When the military shifted to the Beretta 9mm automatic, I bought one for the same reason.

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Re: No comments?

Postby musical comedy » Fri Nov 11, 2016 11:49 pm

Literiding wrote:For PaulaO,

Since I don't have a snowball's chance in the proverbial place of changing your mind or having a meaningful discussion, I'm going to leave my statement as it is. I posted it before my first cup of coffee this morning. Normally I leave these things alone. <respectfully snipped).
FWIW, I appreciated and understood your post. I've always liked your posts.

I've posted a few comments here and there on political forums when I just couldn't resist. However, I have no interest in bickering back and forth with people (on any subject) that have completely different viewpoints. Why do people like to do that? Like over on COTH, it's a nasty nasty place over there.

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Re: No comments?

Postby PaulaO » Fri Nov 11, 2016 11:55 pm

I'm not wanting to bicker. I'm saying I truly don't understand what Literiding is saying. Think of this as a chance to educate me.

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Re: No comments?

Postby Tabby » Sat Nov 12, 2016 2:01 am

musical comedy wrote:I've posted a few comments here and there on political forums when I just couldn't resist. However, I have no interest in bickering back and forth with people (on any subject) that have completely different viewpoints. Why do people like to do that? Like over on COTH, it's a nasty nasty place over there.

It isn't bickering, it's discussion. I, for one, find it extremely valuable. I have a very strong point of view which I will defend to the death. However, I understand that you and many others have differing points of view which you will also defend to the death. I don't want to die and neither do you. So I am willing to listen to your side and even try to rationalize it. Growth comes from an open mind. I have one. Don't take my opinions as an insult - perhaps there's a key point I've missed in my analysis.

I've stated before - this board is unique in the sense that we can all express our views intelligently without media and fear mongering and all the rest. I'm not American and I don't know everything about the American system but it is sure nice to have a place to ask.

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Re: No comments?

Postby WheresMyWhite » Sat Nov 12, 2016 2:27 am

Literiding wrote:It would have been interesting to see how HRC would have approached the implementation of her plank item regarding the rights that are conferred by Fourth Amendment. She maintained the Supreme Court erred in their ruling which allowed citizens in good standing own firearms. I would suspect that the Fourth Amendment right is the individual right that is most often lost and never restored.


Color me more than confused.

We talking about the Second Amendment here the right to keep and bear Arms or the Fourth Amendment prohibiting illegal search and seizure?

I knew that my comment about using FB as a resource would be rejected. I did not say any of you did. I suspect your "research" consistent of primarily anecdotal observations on what you saw on FB unless you are aware of an actual study or poll comparing the use of FB and other social media as a source of voting decisions between parties.

I guess my point is that many seem to feel that the Reps are not well educated and possessing mostly only a GED and use social media while the Dems are much more highly educated and would never stoop to use social media and would rely purely on good solid research... (if you feel that I am talking about you, that is on you, not on me :) ).

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Re: No comments?

Postby Literiding » Sat Nov 12, 2016 11:06 am

musical comedy;

Thank-you for your kind comments.

PaulaO;

You'll have to find someone else to chop up, I respectfully decline. <G>

WheresMyWhite;

My BAD!!!

Not being a Second Amendment fanatic, I had to look it up. I used the National Archives,

https://www.archives.gov/founding-docs/ ... transcript

and I wasn't paying enough attention. The text begins with a 1789 Joint Resolution of Congress Proposing TWELVE Amendments to the U.S. Constitution. In that resolution, the "right" being discussed was the "Article the fourth" and so I was confused. When the dust settled, there were TEN original amendments that formed the Bill of Rights and the right to bear Arms became the Second Amendment.

Sorry for the confusion!!

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Re: No comments?

Postby WheresMyWhite » Sat Nov 12, 2016 3:49 pm

Literiding wrote:Not being a Second Amendment fanatic, I had to look it up. I used the National Archives,


I would consider this a Bill of Rights knowledge issue, not a Second Amendment issue since, as you pointed out, there are ten and more than just the 2nd are fundamental individual rights granted to the people by the signers of the Constitution.

I found it a bit ironic that so many of the Dems here have been pinging on the lack of research (which yes, I see you did, just not the right documents ;) ) and lack of education on the part of the Reps and the need for some type of civic "education" required to cast a vote that the wrong amendment was cited :)

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Re: No comments?

Postby boots-aregard » Sun Nov 13, 2016 2:45 am

piedmontfields wrote: I am also very concerned that our window to actually make a difference on global warming and climate change is just about gone.


This. I think the states can (and should) stand up to any rankly stupid stuff coming out of the administration. They can. States decide certain things on their own.

But climate change is bigger than even a majority of states. I'm very worried about that.

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Re: No comments?

Postby Josette » Sun Nov 13, 2016 12:33 pm

piedmontfields wrote: I am also very concerned that our window to actually make a difference on global warming and climate change is just about gone.


This and that we need regulations to help keep our environment clean and to recover for the future. The pipeline going through ND near the Native American lands who depend on clean water. Their fears are totally legitimate after the recent broken pipeline that just occurred in AL. All the recent earthquake activity in OK attributed to fracking process. OH has some of the worse toxic super fund sites in the country. WA has some as well. Storage containers underground for waste radiation by products as risk of leaking because they are so old and decaying. The list goes on and on. This is our earth and we better take care of it IMO.

Also - someone had mentioned in another post reading the book - The Emperor of All Maladies: A Biography of Cancer. It covers a history of environmental pollution and cigarette smoking links to cancer and the political lobbyists and government denial for YEARS. Plus the years of cancer research and the extreme suffering of patients trying to survive these horrific diseases. Next, lookup the increase in cancer throughout the world in developing countries without pollution controls who are destroying the environment. We are our own worse enemy because we do not prioritize what is truly important for survival.

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Re: No comments?

Postby bits » Mon Nov 14, 2016 4:13 am

I'm concerned about pre existing health conditions being excluded from health insurance.

We have insurance through work now, but should something happen id like to know I can get insurance. I was denied in the early 90's from one single tiny kidney stone that passed on its own. When I told someone who voted for T about my concern he says... "Well,pre existing conditions are really rare... THAT came from someone who has high blood pressure!!! The insurance companies had a list of over 400 things they'd deny insurance for and high blood pressure was one of them!!! The T people just don't get it.

Same guy also said the beaches are going away in Hawaii because the islands are sinking.

The stupidity of some people is astonishing


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