Do MC and I really have different gripes with Trump?

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Do MC and I really have different gripes with Trump?

Postby Tsavo » Sat Oct 27, 2018 3:48 pm

MC and I both claim frustration with the Trump administration but she suggests they are different issues than my issues. Let's see...

Here are mine in no particular order...

1. Lettered people say Trump is exhibiting the same early signs as other dictators. Germany didn't see it coming either.
2. Emoluments and other hidden deals. Apparently, Putin could give Trump's businesses a billion dollars and he would never have to declare it anywhere. Trump is probably bought 10 times by now and that would explain his actions.
3. Trump has blown up the budget.
4. Trump's EPA as rolled back rules that are predicted to result in many unnecessary illnesses and deaths from mercury, arsenic and other contaminants. They have sidelined and undermined the scientists and are just making rules to benefit industry and not protect the environment.
5. Trump's EPA and DoI are denying AGW, curtailing climate work and pulling out of the Paris accord is not helping.
6. Trump's FWS service is contributing to the decimation of Africa wildlife by allowing trophy hunting imports.
7. Trump has functional idiots at Energy and Education. DeVos is a creationist and is trying to dumb down public education to keep the GOP replenished. She is rolling back protections for students from predatory loan companies.
8. The SCOTUS is now useless and out of step with modern society. The problem of money in politics will grow with their rulings. There will be jury nullifications and civil disobedience to the theocratic rulings they make. If they strike down Roe, it won't stop abortions. It will stop safe abortions and we will return to back alley abortions. They will protect GOP gerrymandering so that the GOP can continue to cheat to win.
9. Trump's DoI is opening national lands both onshore and offshore to energy exploration.
10. Trump's DoC is headed by a person who is constantly under investigation for self dealing.
11. Trump picked Pence as insurance against impeachment because Pence is arguably worse than Trump.
12. The separation of families at the boarder is a crime against humanity.

The bottom line is Trump is not religious, probably is still paying for abortions for his mistresses*, etc. but he is playing religious people so as to change this country to favor the wealthy.

*The abortion payment arranged by Cohen and said to have been for Broidy might really have been for Trump. Stay tuned not that the evangelicals will care if Trump paid for an abortion for a mistress. Nor do they care that Trump was cheating on one mistress (Karen McDougall) with Stormy Daniels all he while when his wife was home with their infant son. Nobody need criticize Evangelicals anymore as they are doing a good job exposing themselves as vacuous liars.

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Re: Do MC and I really have different gripes with Trump?

Postby khall » Sat Oct 27, 2018 6:19 pm

Don't forget he is a con man a draft dodger a tax dodger a crook (I just hope he ends up in an orange jump suit) a sniveling child a bully a narcissist ignorant. I despised him before he ran for president, I loath him now. I cannot understand ANYONE who would still support him in office.

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Re: Do MC and I really have different gripes with Trump?

Postby Tsavo » Sat Oct 27, 2018 6:51 pm

Good points, khall.

I am from NYC and while I was always aware of trump, I didn't really form strong opinions. Before he ran I thought he was a Democrat who had zero theological leanings therefore he was pro-choice, pro gay marriage, etc.

Now I still think he has zero theological leanings but is playing the religious crowd like they are idiots. And it is working. He has aligned himself with truly malign people who are bent on transferring all the wealth to just a few people. He has also aligned himself with "super-geniuses" like DeVos and Perry who together might not crack 100 on the IQ test. This has got to ring the bell on number of creationists in a cabinet. Most of the rest of his cabinet are not dumb but are evil.

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Re: Do MC and I really have different gripes with Trump?

Postby musical comedy » Sat Oct 27, 2018 8:28 pm

Tsavo wrote:MC and I both claim frustration with the Trump administration but she suggests they are different issues than my issues.
That isn't exactly what I said. My exact words were " I lose sleep and have anxiety over the government situation too". I did not single out Trump or his administration. I'm concerned about a lot of things and angry about others. However, I don't discuss politics on the internet. I only discuss political things with friends that I know share my views. The way people on both sides are getting attacked (sometimes physically), it's best to keep one's politics private. Besides, I see no point in arguing with people that have strong opposite views (that goes for dressage too). I will say though, Tsavo, while I don't discount your list of peeves, all those things aren't high on my list and some aren't on my list at all.

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Re: Do MC and I really have different gripes with Trump?

Postby fallingwaters » Sun Oct 28, 2018 11:14 am

However, I don't discuss politics on the internet. I only discuss political things with friends that I know share my views.

With all due respect, then how will you ever learn about or have an opportunity to ponder others' points of view? If you all talk and agree with one another, how can there be debate or discussion?

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Re: Do MC and I really have different gripes with Trump?

Postby kande50 » Tue Oct 30, 2018 11:31 am

fallingwaters wrote:
With all due respect, then how will you ever learn about or have an opportunity to ponder others' points of view? If you all talk and agree with one another, how can there be debate or discussion?


I too, "manage my environment" by avoiding pro-Trump debaters. I get enough of it here and there to have a pretty good idea what they think, and don't need to hear it over and over again.

In fact, I have a pro Trump family member who is able to express his views in a civil manner, and I find that a relatively painless way to catch up on the inner workings of the pro Trump brain.

I feel the same way about child and animal abuse, in that I don't need to hear about it over and over again to be aware of it.

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Re: Do MC and I really have different gripes with Trump?

Postby Tsavo » Tue Oct 30, 2018 12:26 pm

kande50 wrote:I feel the same way about child and animal abuse, in that I don't need to hear about it over and over again to be aware of it.


Maybe that is how Germany got Hitler... not enough people beating the drum enough.

I actually think there will be civil unrest on a massive scale before we lose our democracy to Trump and his ignorant, demon-haunted, evil base.

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Re: Do MC and I really have different gripes with Trump?

Postby kande50 » Tue Oct 30, 2018 1:30 pm

Tsavo wrote:
Maybe that is how Germany got Hitler... not enough people beating the drum enough.


I don't believe that blabbering about it, or reading the blabber, is a productive use of time. It can be an enjoyable bonding experience among those who have the same beliefs, and likewise for those who like to debate, but other than that it's likely just a waste of time.

I actually think there will be civil unrest on a massive scale before we lose our democracy to Trump and his ignorant, demon-haunted, evil base.


He was elected president by those who wanted him to be president. Those who didn't want him to be president can whine and cry and stamp their feet all they want, the same way the Obama haters did when he was elected. But Obama was re-elected anyway, and this ass may be re-elected too, and beating drums isn't going to change any of it.

My hope is that the problem was that so many voters didn't think he had any chance of getting elected, so didn't bother to vote, and that's what the mid-terms, and then the next election, will indicate actually did happen.

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Re: Do MC and I really have different gripes with Trump?

Postby Angfreda » Tue Oct 30, 2018 1:42 pm

kande50 wrote:
Tsavo wrote:
Maybe that is how Germany got Hitler... not enough people beating the drum enough.


I don't believe that blabbering about it, or reading the blabber, is a productive use of time. It can be an enjoyable bonding experience among those who have the same beliefs, and likewise for those who like to debate, but other than that it's likely just a waste of time.

Blabbering?

I think people on this page and others are some of the most well thought out people I know, IRL or otherwise.

I also disagree in ignoring those who are unlike us. There is some really ugly crap in my area. I refuse to allow it to go ignored for only those attacked to deal with, alone. Lack of unity against the ugly is how we ended up in this handbasket to begin with and IMO only through unity wil this merde will be driven out.
If I don't stand for and with that guy, why would that guy stand for and with me when I am the one picked on?


I actually think there will be civil unrest on a massive scale before we lose our democracy to Trump and his ignorant, demon-haunted, evil base.


He was elected president by those who wanted him to be president. Those who didn't want him to be president can whine and cry and stamp their feet all they want, the same way the Obama haters did when he was elected. But Obama was re-elected anyway, and this ass may be re-elected too, and beating drums isn't going to change any of it.

Uh sure it will. Sure it can. That's exactly how change happens!
The only time 'you can't do anything about' something is when you don't try.
And to me, this nation being turned into an ugly, hateful, bigoted, racist, anti-Semitic, sexist, … sham... is worth fighting against whether that fight includes whining, crying, stamping feet, marching, or all of those and more.
To me the problem is the naysayers who 'woe is me, nothing can be done' us all to death, content to watch as other people, who aren't them, suffer.

My hope is that the problem was that so many voters didn't think he had any chance of getting elected, so didn't bother to votee, and that's what the mid-terms, and then the next election, will show actually happened.


I am past hope and I think more need to be at the 'Act' stage... working for candidates you believe in, getting voters to polls, and otherwise moving the elctoral process forwards where more participants, whether voters or candidates, arefully and compltely involved.

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Re: Do MC and I really have different gripes with Trump?

Postby kande50 » Tue Oct 30, 2018 1:47 pm

Angfreda wrote:
I am past hope and I think more need to be at the 'Act' stage... working for candidates you believe in, getting voters to polls, and otherwise moving the elctoral process forwards where more participants, whether voters or candidates, arefully and compltely involved.


What this boils down to is arrogance. IOW, "my opinions are superior to yours so you need to listen to me".

Trouble is, working to get one's own way works for both sides, and right now, it's working better for repubs.

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Re: Do MC and I really have different gripes with Trump?

Postby Angfreda » Tue Oct 30, 2018 1:49 pm

Tsavo wrote:
kande50 wrote:I feel the same way about child and animal abuse, in that I don't need to hear about it over and over again to be aware of it.


Maybe that is how Germany got Hitler... not enough people beating the drum enough.

I actually think there will be civil unrest on a massive scale before we lose our democracy to Trump and his ignorant, demon-haunted, evil base.


Agree.
Honestly, I honestly question if you are not willing to go down swinging, how are you not complicit in this?
If you let Trump and the Trump supporters to define this country for you... shame on you.
This is not his country, it is ours. We get to say what it stands for, and we need to stand for/against it's actions that define it.

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Re: Do MC and I really have different gripes with Trump?

Postby WheresMyWhite » Tue Oct 30, 2018 3:45 pm

fallingwaters wrote:With all due respect, then how will you ever learn about or have an opportunity to ponder others' points of view? If you all talk and agree with one another, how can there be debate or discussion?


Why do I need to "learn" about other points of view from highly opinionated people who often are incapable of anything resembling a calm discussion and are not interested in my point of view?

Had a WFT moment last week. Last time I had my nails done I picked a nice red with a glittery topcoat because I felt like red and liked the color. Someone I ran into assumed the red was a political statement and whipped off her shoes to show me her blue toenalls. :shock: Really...?

BTW (yes, an abbreviation but in this case assume most know it means By The Way :) )... the one post above full of abbreviations was almost unreadable for me as I had no idea who/what was being talked about.

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Re: Do MC and I really have different gripes with Trump?

Postby Angfreda » Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:00 pm

kande50 wrote:
Angfreda wrote:
I am past hope and I think more need to be at the 'Act' stage... working for candidates you believe in, getting voters to polls, and otherwise moving the elctoral process forwards where more participants, whether voters or candidates, arefully and compltely involved.


What this boils down to is arrogance. IOW, "my opinions are superior to yours so you need to listen to me".

Trouble is, working to get one's own way works for both sides, and right now, it's working better for repubs.


We'll see I guess.

But at least I go to bed knowing I tried.

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Re: Do MC and I really have different gripes with Trump?

Postby Chancellor » Tue Oct 30, 2018 7:34 pm

I have many many friends IRL who are democrats while I am a moderate. And I consider myself an old school Republican with small government etc. The Republicans today with all the theology thrown in and forcing their wishes on others are not the Republicans I support.
However, why NOT listen to them? Perhaps you will learn something new. You never know where the next bit of knowledge comes from.

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Re: Do MC and I really have different gripes with Trump?

Postby khall » Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:10 pm

Why listen to these jackass repubs (and I completely disagree with kande that they are doing better than dems, just look at the tight political races going on now) when they only spout insults and faux news tag lines, the drivel (lies) that come out of Trump's mouth on a daily basis. I do have conservative friends that I can have calm and informative debates with, but they are few and far between. Those who I know are conservative (hey I live in GA, most everyone around me is) yet I still find common ground (horses, dogs, rescue etc) we just do not talk politics. Anyone who knows me on FB and IRL knows I am a die hard liberal who despises Trump.

Early voting here in middle Georgia has shown to be quite heavy turnout for a mid term election. Our governor's race is in a dead heat so far, in Georgia, with a black woman running for the Dems. And Florida is a close race with a black man running for the Dems. Georgia is about as red of a state as it can be usually, but don't be surprised if it does not turn blue this election. Stacey Abrahams has a chance, I hope she can do it! Trump is galvanizing voters on both sides. It remains to be seen which will be the most driven, we will find out in a week.

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Re: Do MC and I really have different gripes with Trump?

Postby Koolkat » Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:40 pm

Chancellor wrote:I have many many friends IRL who are democrats while I am a moderate.


Could you please clarify this, lol.

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Re: Do MC and I really have different gripes with Trump?

Postby Tsavo » Wed Oct 31, 2018 12:47 pm

WheresMyWhite wrote:
fallingwaters wrote:With all due respect, then how will you ever learn about or have an opportunity to ponder others' points of view? If you all talk and agree with one another, how can there be debate or discussion?


Why do I need to "learn" about other points of view from highly opinionated people who often are incapable of anything resembling a calm discussion and are not interested in my point of view?


That is the ruse people who do not have the facts on their side hide behind.

All these arguments in support of listening to the Trump camp are the SAME arguments creationists use when they get beat up over facts about the age of the earth. These people claim the earth is 6,000 years old which by the way is 1,000 years after the Sumerians invented glue. The Trump supporters are as objectively wrong about important matters of fact as the creationists are.

Do tax cuts help or hurt the economy? ALL the evidence is in... they hurt. The only way Trump can have any support from working class people is to lie to them and that is what he does on a daily basis. OBJECTIVELY he has lied over 5,000 times since becoming POTUS and most working class Republicans are too ignorant to know it. I deal with some of these people on FB. It scares me that they are raising kids.

Until we start enforcing the wall between church and state, we will continually have to deal with antediluvian wingnuts propounding laws against abortion, gay marriage, transgender people, etc. There are ONLY theological reasons for these laws. Therefore there are no rational reasons. All these laws come from a place of deep ignorance of biology and cruelty. You don't even need to know the biology if you are just kind.

Until we label thinking your opinion about abortion, gay rights, embryonic stem cell research, etc. has to apply to other people as a named mental illness in the DSM, perhaps as a type of inability to recognize appropriate interpersonal boundaries, things will not change. These laws are as intrusive and inappropriate and criminal as a guy putting a hand up a woman's dress on a subway and should be as illegal.

It is time for the sake of society to shed our cruel demon-haunted past and move into a world of reason and ration and kindness. At least in the public sphere so we don't look like idiot theocrats on the world stage. It's embarrassing.
Last edited by Tsavo on Wed Oct 31, 2018 4:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Do MC and I really have different gripes with Trump?

Postby Chancellor » Wed Oct 31, 2018 2:13 pm

Koolkat wrote:
Chancellor wrote:I have many many friends IRL who are democrats while I am a moderate.


Could you please clarify this, lol.



Clarify how? I am a registered Republican. I believe in small government and I also believe that if we continue to do more and more for people, that more and more people will expect help from the government. I did not vote for Trump but I would have never voted for Clinton. EVER. I have no respect for either candidate.

I don't believe that today's Republicans are true Republicans as government has no place in religion or a woman's body.

And I DO believe that there are more moderate Republicans than there are the "out there" ones. But the news media likes to portray all Republicans like that.
I firmly believe statements like "why should I listen to jackass repubs" is the root of the problem with society right now. No one cares about others. It's all about me me me.
Why should I care if I am driving slow in the fast lane? I need to be texting on my phone and to hell with that ambulance coming up behind me.
Why should I care about your opinion? Mine is the only correct one.
Perhaps we should start listening to why people believe something?

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Re: Do MC and I really have different gripes with Trump?

Postby Angfreda » Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:15 pm

Chancellor wrote:
Koolkat wrote:
Chancellor wrote:I have many many friends IRL who are democrats while I am a moderate.


Could you please clarify this, lol.



Clarify how? I am a registered Republican. I believe in small government and I also believe that if we continue to do more and more for people, that more and more people will expect help from the government. I did not vote for Trump but I would have never voted for Clinton. EVER. I have no respect for either candidate.

I don't believe that today's Republicans are true Republicans as government has no place in religion or a woman's body.

And I DO believe that there are more moderate Republicans than there are the "out there" ones. But the news media likes to portray all Republicans like that.
I firmly believe statements like "why should I listen to jackass repubs" is the root of the problem with society right now. No one cares about others. It's all about me me me.
Why should I care if I am driving slow in the fast lane? I need to be texting on my phone and to hell with that ambulance coming up behind me.
Why should I care about your opinion? Mine is the only correct one.
Perhaps we should start listening to why people believe something?


Re the portion I highlighted in red:

I don't think all Republicans are like Trump, or like the stereotype Republican.
I simply think that too many of them are... and it scares me, not for the sake of my far, far left ideals... but for the basics of the Constitution that those extremists seem to have set their sites on.

One of my family members today on Facebook posted an anti-immigrant meme about the caravan coming here to have America provide them with their dreams.
Oh the irony.
My, OUR, family came here to escape persecution and to pursue the American Dream, just likes so many of these immigrants in the caravan... we just came by boat- likely cause there's an ocean between where we were and where we saw that opportunity.
*sigh*

If we fail to see ourselves in people unlike us, we are doomed.
If we fail to see ourselves in others and declare war on them, we are lost as is this experiment in Democracy.

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Re: Do MC and I really have different gripes with Trump?

Postby Chancellor » Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:38 pm

Ang, my family came over too on a boat. However, there are some big differences in my opinion.
1. My great grandmother came over legally and became a citizen legally.
2. She came over to work here and seek the American Dream. When she went to work, she paid into Social Security and paid all her taxes.
3. She did not avail herself of services provided at no charge. She couldn't because they did not exist.
4. She learned to speak English and read enough to get by.

The differences are these. There are so many more services these days provided free of charge that take a lot of money. For instance, back when I started in healthcare, there were no free translators. Now, they provide for every language out there and free of charge. Someone has to pay those translators. Everyone talks about how expensive our health care is here but no one thinks of all these little things that add up.

"Back in the day" these services didn't exist. Now they do and every time someone avails themselves of a free service, there is a cost associated.

Today, there are people who cross the border just to have their children declared American Citizens. But when they come into the country illegally, are they paying for those services that they need to be? Going back to healthcare, if Joe and Jill from Mexico come here into the country illegally and have their child in a hospital, are they availing themselves of these services without paying back?

I do not believe (like the media likes to portray Republicans believing) that illegal aliens are all lazy etc. However, when they work here illegally, they are not paying taxes like we all have to. I also do not believe that illegal aliens are taking our jobs.

The bottom line, however, is that there exists a legal way to become a US citizen. If you so choose to be, then follow the path. Why do some follow that path and others do not?

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Re: Do MC and I really have different gripes with Trump?

Postby WheresMyWhite » Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:41 pm

Tsavo wrote:
WheresMyWhite wrote:
fallingwaters wrote:With all due respect, then how will you ever learn about or have an opportunity to ponder others' points of view? If you all talk and agree with one another, how can there be debate or discussion?


Why do I need to "learn" about other points of view from highly opinionated people who often are incapable of anything resembling a calm discussion and are not interested in my point of view?


That is the ruse people who do not have the facts on their side hide behind.


What you seemed to have missed in what I posted is I was not talking about any specific issue or person. I was attempting, and obviously failing, to point out is that it wouldn't hurt to listen to viewpoints other than your own and inflammatory rhetoric makes it hard to do that. There might be a nugget of information that would be useful for one to learn or know.

I don't know what 'ruse' you seem to feel that I was hiding behind. I suspect you are making assumptions about my political leanings based simply on how you are interpreting what I've posted. Granted, all you have for 'information' is what I've posted but I suspect if you went back and objectively re-read what I've said, I think it might be really hard to know what my political leanings are (and actually in a few cases, I have made comments that might show something other than what I suspect you think :) ). (Convoluted enough? ;) )

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Re: Do MC and I really have different gripes with Trump?

Postby Angfreda » Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:55 pm

Chancellor wrote:Ang, my family came over too on a boat. However, there are some big differences in my opinion.
1. My great grandmother came over legally and became a citizen legally.
2. She came over to work here and seek the American Dream. When she went to work, she paid into Social Security and paid all her taxes.
3. She did not avail herself of services provided at no charge. She couldn't because they did not exist.
4. She learned to speak English and read enough to get by.

The differences are these. There are so many more services these days provided free of charge that take a lot of money. For instance, back when I started in healthcare, there were no free translators. Now, they provide for every language out there and free of charge. Someone has to pay those translators. Everyone talks about how expensive our health care is here but no one thinks of all these little things that add up.

"Back in the day" these services didn't exist. Now they do and every time someone avails themselves of a free service, there is a cost associated.

Today, there are people who cross the border just to have their children declared American Citizens. But when they come into the country illegally, are they paying for those services that they need to be? Going back to healthcare, if Joe and Jill from Mexico come here into the country illegally and have their child in a hospital, are they availing themselves of these services without paying back?

I do not believe (like the media likes to portray Republicans believing) that illegal aliens are all lazy etc. However, when they work here illegally, they are not paying taxes like we all have to. So, what actions should we then take against those who employ them? Without the jobs many of them would not come. I also do not believe that illegal aliens are taking our jobs.

The bottom line, however, is that there exists a legal way to become a US citizen. If you so choose to be, then follow the path. Why do some follow that path and others do not?


Why do you think some choose not to follow the 'legal path'? And how many do you think that is that choose to not follow the legal path?
From what I understand asylum seeking, to escape drug cartels and other horrific conditions, is covered as 'legal', no?
Should we no longer offer asylum for extreme circumstance like escaping a horrible regime in your home country? and how does doing so in these circumstances compare to the denial of asylum to Jews pre WWII?

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Re: Do MC and I really have different gripes with Trump?

Postby khall » Wed Oct 31, 2018 4:05 pm

Chancelor, you forgot to add in there to my quote "When they spout Faux news lies and DT drivel aka lies" and I further explained I did have civil discussions with conservative friends, ones who actually wanted to understand my point of view. But when I am called a libetard or been told that it is my beliefs that led to the downfall of our country (under Obama, the horrors) and those conservatives refuse to admit that the economy turned around under Obama, that he was a Muslim and hates America, yeah they are not worth talking to. Now if you align yourself with this thinking, no I have no interest in talking with you. These people do not believe facts, only the lies and spin brought by Faux News and DT. Here in the deep south there are more than our fair share of this far right Evangelical crap. Those that are horrified that the four pillars of Islam are taught in a Social Studies class in public school. Sigh.

Also this harping on illegal immigration, which has fallen drastically in the last 20 years or so: https://www.factcheck.org/2018/06/illeg ... tatistics/ No one talks about how the numbers have fallen drastically since 2000. Much of it under Obama.

I am right there with you Tsavo, we absolutely need separation of church and state. The same people who are shouting that the Muslims are wanting Sharia law enacted in the US are wanting to shove their Christian faith and beliefs down others throats. Of course IMO they are not shining examples of what Christ taught since his two commandments were love thy God with all thy heart etc and love thy neighbor as thyself: they certainly are not embracing this teaching. This is why growing up in a Baptist Church I never felt comfortable in that faith teachings, the hypocrisy is out of control.

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Re: Do MC and I really have different gripes with Trump?

Postby Koolkat » Wed Oct 31, 2018 6:09 pm

Chancellor wrote:
Koolkat wrote:
Chancellor wrote:I have many many friends IRL who are democrats while I am a moderate.


Could you please clarify this, lol.



Clarify how? I am a registered Republican. I believe in small government and I also believe that if we continue to do more and more for people, that more and more people will expect help from the government. I did not vote for Trump but I would have never voted for Clinton. EVER. I have no respect for either candidate.

I don't believe that today's Republicans are true Republicans as government has no place in religion or a woman's body.

And I DO believe that there are more moderate Republicans than there are the "out there" ones. But the news media likes to portray all Republicans like that.
I firmly believe statements like "why should I listen to jackass repubs" is the root of the problem with society right now. No one cares about others. It's all about me me me.
Why should I care if I am driving slow in the fast lane? I need to be texting on my phone and to hell with that ambulance coming up behind me.
Why should I care about your opinion? Mine is the only correct one.
Perhaps we should start listening to why people believe something?


OK, you're a moderate Republican. Versus a moderate Democrat, for instance. . . ;)

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Re: Do MC and I really have different gripes with Trump?

Postby Chancellor » Wed Oct 31, 2018 6:26 pm

khall wrote:Chancelor, you forgot to add in there to my quote "When they spout Faux news lies and DT drivel aka lies" and I further explained I did have civil discussions with conservative friends, ones who actually wanted to understand my point of view. But when I am called a libetard or been told that it is my beliefs that led to the downfall of our country (under Obama, the horrors) and those conservatives refuse to admit that the economy turned around under Obama, that he was a Muslim and hates America, yeah they are not worth talking to. Now if you align yourself with this thinking, no I have no interest in talking with you. These people do not believe facts, only the lies and spin brought by Faux News and DT. Here in the deep south there are more than our fair share of this far right Evangelical crap. Those that are horrified that the four pillars of Islam are taught in a Social Studies class in public school. Sigh.

Also this harping on illegal immigration, which has fallen drastically in the last 20 years or so: https://www.factcheck.org/2018/06/illeg ... tatistics/ No one talks about how the numbers have fallen drastically since 2000. Much of it under Obama.

I am right there with you Tsavo, we absolutely need separation of church and state. The same people who are shouting that the Muslims are wanting Sharia law enacted in the US are wanting to shove their Christian faith and beliefs down others throats. Of course IMO they are not shining examples of what Christ taught since his two commandments were love thy God with all thy heart etc and love thy neighbor as thyself: they certainly are not embracing this teaching. This is why growing up in a Baptist Church I never felt comfortable in that faith teachings, the hypocrisy is out of control.


And see, this is EXACTLY what I am talking about. I have not called you a libetard, stated that Obama was Muslim or anything. Yet, you assume that this would be something I would do.
And you are attacking me assuming these are my beliefs based on the fact that I am a republican.

You claim you can't stand the people who call you libetard etc. But aren't you doing exactly the same thing to me? Assuming that I would do any of this?

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Re: Do MC and I really have different gripes with Trump?

Postby Chancellor » Wed Oct 31, 2018 6:34 pm

Angfreda wrote:
Why do you think some choose not to follow the 'legal path'? And how many do you think that is that choose to not follow the legal path?
From what I understand asylum seeking, to escape drug cartels and other horrific conditions, is covered as 'legal', no?
Should we no longer offer asylum for extreme circumstance like escaping a horrible regime in your home country? and how does doing so in these circumstances compare to the denial of asylum to Jews pre WWII?


I have no idea how many choose not to follow the legal path. And it doesn't matter to me. One is too many. What they are doing is ILLEGAL.

Your question about what to do about those that employ them is a good one. Yes, there should be action against the employers as well. Absolutely. If there were no jobs for them, perhaps they wouldn't come.

These are excellent points Ang. This kind of civil discourse should be encouraged.

My question to you is this. How many people does the US HAVE to rescue from horrific conditions or drug cartels? Sure, it would be great to be able to save everyone. But can we? Is it sustainable? If we open our borders and let everyone in who thinks they are oppressed etc, how many is too many?

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Re: Do MC and I really have different gripes with Trump?

Postby khall » Wed Oct 31, 2018 6:58 pm

Chancelor again you are picking and choosing and taking offense where none was given. In no way did I "attack" you directly in my post, what I said and I quote: "Now if you align yourself with this thinking, no I have no interest in talking with you." If you call liberals libtards or spout Faux News or any of DT's drivel then no there is no reason to have any kind of discussion, but if you can talk about policies and FACTS, then I have no trouble talking with someone of a different mindset than I. That is why I put IF in there, I did not assume anything.

Chancellor are you talking of the caravan or illegal crossings of the boarder? Which BTW is a misdemeanor. How much is on US for what is happening in Honduras and Central America?
You are also not acknowledging that the number of illegal immigrants has greatly reduced since 2000.

True story, I live in Georgia not far from Vidalia where the Vidalia onions are grown. Quite a few years ago the Feds moved in to remove all of the undocumented workers (before ICE). No workers to get the onions out of the fields, the farmer's crops were rotting and had no one to pick them. They begged the Feds to back off so they could get their crops out. In rural agricultural areas like our state has, Mexicans are invaluable to our crops and agriculture. Most farmers use the H1B visa workers, but undocumented workers are readily available as well. When crops are needed in, it is whoever steps up for the job.

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Re: Do MC and I really have different gripes with Trump?

Postby Tsavo » Wed Oct 31, 2018 7:10 pm

Given Trump, there is no honest position anywhere on the Republican spectrum. At this point, people who still claim to be any type of Republican are part of the problem and are at least complicitous. Rational people can't use the label any more.

Not all Republicans are racist but most racists are Republican. Failure to depart the party is complicity if not support.

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Re: Do MC and I really have different gripes with Trump?

Postby Tsavo » Wed Oct 31, 2018 7:27 pm

By the way, polling shows that most like 90% or so of Republicans support Trump. That's why you can't use the label if you oppose Trump.

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Re: Do MC and I really have different gripes with Trump?

Postby Chancellor » Wed Oct 31, 2018 7:56 pm

Oh, so it is okay because it is a misdemeanor? Ok. Good to know.

Tsavo, you do realize you are insulting me...the owner of this board who PAYS for YOU to be able to be here. Can you at least consider that before you say there is nothing good about Republicans? I'd also like to see your "facts" about 90% support Trump. Methinks you are using OPINION instead of fact.

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Re: Do MC and I really have different gripes with Trump?

Postby Ponichiwa » Wed Oct 31, 2018 8:14 pm

Speeding is also a misdemeanor. In some states, so is talking on the cell phone while driving. The penalties applied to those illegal actions are much less severe than illegal entry to the US (detention, deportation, separation of families...).

I see the spectrum here, not strictly black and white. Those crossing the border illegally are by and large taking a calculated risk to support themselves/their families or are fleeing from something. That's the kind of emergent need that cannot wait years for applications for citizenship-- one of my coworkers recently became a citizen after a 7-year wait. That's a long time if your family is starving!

Few are criminals that are perpetuating the drug wars-- more are victimized by those criminals.

This may be colored by where I live. I know when I was in Pittsburgh, and also when I lived in MI, my neighbors were VERY alarmed at ALL THESE CRIMINALS crossing the border. Here in TX, the conversation is more nuanced (with some notable exceptions).

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Re: Do MC and I really have different gripes with Trump?

Postby musical comedy » Wed Oct 31, 2018 9:08 pm

If interested, read the requirements for asylum. Trying to escape poverty, gangs, a bad governement, etc. are not acceptable.

To determine if you are eligible for asylum, USCIS will evaluate whether you meet the definition of a refugee according to section 101(a)(42) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (INA). In general, eligibility for asylum requires that:

- You are present in the United States (by legal or illegally entry)
- You are unable or unwilling to return to your home country due to past persecution or have a well-founded fear of persecution if you return
- The reason for persecution is related to one of five things: race, religion, nationality, membership in a particular social group, or political opinion

None of us know the makeup of participants in the caravans (there is/was more than one). There has been violence involving them attacking law enforcement, breaking down barriers, etc. There has even been violence among them. Reporters from various networks have interviewed some of the participants that openly admit they are not asylum seekers, but rather just looking for work. Mexico has offered them asylum and work permits, and many refused. Some took Mexico up on the offer. The others want to come to USA. One member interviewed said that he was going to work in Mexico for a year to save up money to pay a coyote (sp?) to take him across the border.

Maybe look at the facts of the cost, if you care about that. Illegals in this country reproduce and their offspring reproduce. These people are then citizens elgible for services. This amounts to billions, billions that could have been spent on needy americans and other things.

This isn't about Trump or being Republican or Democrat. It seems to me just common sense that we want to control our borders and for the life of me can't understand why anyone thinks otherwise. Remember, the more that get in, the more that will come. Much of South America is in poverty and crime. They all want to come. When is enough?

Lastly, those wanting to work here do not have to apply for citizenship which does take a long time. They can apply for a work visa, even a permanent work visa. They could get sponsored by their employer. For example, farmers looking for help could sponsor them.

Another thing I learned last night is that there is such a thing they call Vacation Visas. People from other countries come here to have their baby so that it is an American Citizen. They then return home. Their reasons for doing this vary, but none of them is to help USA.

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Re: Do MC and I really have different gripes with Trump?

Postby khall » Thu Nov 01, 2018 12:11 am

MC but we do know that it is likely just like in the spring that this caravan will dwindle as it closes in on the US. IMO much ado about nothing re the caravan. All of 11 from that caravan in April crossed the boarder without proper channels. Just scare tactics. The entire illegal immigrants issue IMO is scare tactics. When you look at the numbers and facts those crossing the boarder are doing so in much less numbers than they did at their height.

No one said we should not patrol the boarder, I don't know of any liberal who thinks we should have open boarders. What I feel is that we should not treat them like hardened criminals when they get here. Separating families, making children appear in court without their parents.

Let's look at the cost: The Congressional Budget Office reported in 2007 that "the tax revenues that unauthorized immigrants generate for state and local governments do not offset the total cost of services provided to them" but "in aggregate and over the long term, tax revenues of all types generated by immigrants—both legal and unauthorized—exceed the cost of the services they use."[8] Unauthorized immigrants demand goods and services[9] while an estimated 50 to 75 percent pay taxes.[10] Due to cheaper labor, they contribute to lower prices in the industries where they work, such as agriculture, restaurants, and construction.[9]

from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_ ... ted_States

Undocumented workers pay taxes, both state and federal taxes (estimated 50-75% of them): The Institute on Taxation and Economic Policy released a report in February 2016, stating that 11 million illegal immigrants in the United States are paying annually an estimated amount of $11.64 billion in state and local taxes, "on average an estimated 8 percent of their incomes."[45]

Trump's administration limited H1B visas,

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/02/busi ... visas.html

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Re: Do MC and I really have different gripes with Trump?

Postby Tsavo » Thu Nov 01, 2018 1:01 am

khall, thanks for researching that and posting it. Saved me some time.

This immigration thing is a distraction from Trump's malign agenda. But as distractions go, it is a genius-level dog whistle to his racist base.

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Re: Do MC and I really have different gripes with Trump?

Postby Koolkat » Thu Nov 01, 2018 2:40 am

khall wrote:MC but we do know that it is likely just like in the spring that this caravan will dwindle as it closes in on the US. IMO much ado about nothing re the caravan. All of 11 from that caravan in April crossed the boarder without proper channels.


At one time, Obama was called "The Deporter in Chief". Look no further than Steve Miller (brought into the administration with Jeff Sessions, who has a history of playing the immigration card in Alabama) to find the epicenter for this.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/ar ... on/563132/

The bigger picture of course, is that we need to start constructively working with these countries (our neighbors) to create a better environment for their citizens.

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Re: Do MC and I really have different gripes with Trump?

Postby Chancellor » Thu Nov 01, 2018 12:42 pm

Koolkat wrote:
khall wrote:MC but we do know that it is likely just like in the spring that this caravan will dwindle as it closes in on the US. IMO much ado about nothing re the caravan. All of 11 from that caravan in April crossed the boarder without proper channels.


At one time, Obama was called "The Deporter in Chief". Look no further than Steve Miller (brought into the administration with Jeff Sessions, who has a history of playing the immigration card in Alabama) to find the epicenter for this.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/ar ... on/563132/

The bigger picture of course, is that we need to start constructively working with these countries (our neighbors) to create a better environment for their citizens.



This! Definitely Koolkat. Emphasis mine!

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Re: Do MC and I really have different gripes with Trump?

Postby Angfreda » Thu Nov 01, 2018 1:21 pm

Chancellor wrote:
Angfreda wrote:
Why do you think some choose not to follow the 'legal path'? And how many do you think that is that choose to not follow the legal path?
From what I understand asylum seeking, to escape drug cartels and other horrific conditions, is covered as 'legal', no?
Should we no longer offer asylum for extreme circumstance like escaping a horrible regime in your home country? and how does doing so in these circumstances compare to the denial of asylum to Jews pre WWII?


I have no idea how many choose not to follow the legal path. And it doesn't matter to me. One is too many. What they are doing is ILLEGAL.

Your question about what to do about those that employ them is a good one. Yes, there should be action against the employers as well. Absolutely. If there were no jobs for them, perhaps they wouldn't come.

These are excellent points Ang. This kind of civil discourse should be encouraged.

My question to you is this. How many people does the US HAVE to rescue from horrific conditions or drug cartels?
As many as we can, especially those who are innocent victims of it. You may forget my sister is an addict. These drug cartels hurt us all in a myriad of ways. WE often can not save our own addicts from this horrific industry, so, to me, if we can save other innocent victims of it, I'm for it.
Sure, it would be great to be able to save everyone. But can we? Is it sustainable?
Is detaining thousands of them, indefinitely sustainable? And who is getting rich off it and is that the motivation or part of it?
If we open our borders and let everyone in who thinks they are oppressed etc, how many is too many?
There's a process at the border to determie who is actually legit applying to asylum.
Past administrations have not felt the need to receive those people with military forces [$$$]. That doesn't strike you as interesting? Questionable? That suddenly, now, when it serves a purpose of stirring... that it's necessary?
I just really dislike being played.
And I think this administration is doing just that.



You love Pitt Bulls.
Pitt Bulls are victims of the horrible people who overbreed them, fight them, and basically 'use' them.
We can't save them all and housing and caring for them all is not terribly sustainable.
But we try anyway, don't we?
Because they did not get themselves into the fix they are in. Someone else created that mess.
Because how we care for those les fortunate or unable to care for themselves defines our humanity.

{And lest I be misunderstood, I am not suggesting immigrants are animals or anything similarly ridiculous}

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Re: Do MC and I really have different gripes with Trump?

Postby Chancellor » Thu Nov 01, 2018 1:33 pm

See, this is what good civil discourse is about Ang. You helped me think about this in another way (the pit bull analogy hit home! Good job)

I agree with you completely that Trump is out of line sending troops to meet this caravan especially since the military can't do anything about it.

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Re: Do MC and I really have different gripes with Trump?

Postby kande50 » Thu Nov 01, 2018 1:37 pm

khall wrote:Why listen to these jackass repubs (and I completely disagree with kande that they are doing better than dems, just look at the tight political races going on now)


We can always try to change the goal posts, but as of right now the repubs are in power so what they're doing is working. Whether it's nothing more than a fluke, or an extinction burst, we'll soon see.

knows I am a die hard liberal who despises Trump.


Me too, but that doesn't mean I can't see where his supporters are coming from. I make the mistake often enough in thinking that most everyone sees things the same way I do, so what we're currently experiencing has come as a bit of shock.

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Re: Do MC and I really have different gripes with Trump?

Postby Angfreda » Thu Nov 01, 2018 1:42 pm

Chancellor wrote:See, this is what good civil discourse is about Ang. You helped me think about this in another way (the pit bull analogy hit home! Good job)

I agree with you completely that Trump is out of line sending troops to meet this caravan especially since the military can't do anything about it.


And we saw how Standing Rock went down.
It troubles me.
All it takes is one yahoo in the bunch to take one shot that then starts a firing line.
Kent State at the Border.

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Re: Do MC and I really have different gripes with Trump?

Postby WheresMyWhite » Thu Nov 01, 2018 3:41 pm

Tsavo wrote:Given Trump, there is no honest position anywhere on the Republican spectrum. At this point, people who still claim to be any type of Republican are part of the problem and are at least complicitous. Rational people can't use the label any more.

Not all Republicans are racist but most racists are Republican. Failure to depart the party is complicity if not support.


:roll:

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Re: Do MC and I really have different gripes with Trump?

Postby WheresMyWhite » Thu Nov 01, 2018 3:49 pm

musical comedy wrote:Maybe look at the facts of the cost, if you care about that. Illegals in this country reproduce and their offspring reproduce. These people are then citizens elgible for services. This amounts to billions, billions that could have been spent on needy americans and other things.


ATM, those undocumented parents who have children in America will have children who will be US Citizens. Those individuals will both be eligible for "services" as well as pay taxes like the rest of Americans who pay taxes and are eligible for services.

I too am in a border state and sometimes I find the local vitriol to be close to frightening. I've also talked to US Citizens (have I asked to see their passport, no) who are of Latino descent and some of their stories because of their race are also sometimes scary. Seems like for Latinos that their civil rights are backwards... guilty of being undocumented until proven otherwise. I'm fine that they, along with the rest of us, must produce ID when requested by LE but they shouldn't be treated as undocumented until they actually are.

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Re: Do MC and I really have different gripes with Trump?

Postby khall » Fri Nov 02, 2018 11:06 pm

WMW undocumented workers (50-75%) pay income and state taxes. They do so to help their case to become a citizen. Yet they will not be able to draw SSI or SS until they are citizens or any federal aid.

kande I really cannot see where Trump supporters are coming from. Now a conservative who does not support Trump, yes, but a Trump supporter, his "base" no. They are willfully ignorant, have beliefs that do not align with facts and many are just hateful individuals, racists intolerant gullible individuals who really need to go back into the dark closet they came out of when Trump riled them up with his hateful rhetoric.

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Re: Do MC and I really have different gripes with Trump?

Postby kande50 » Sat Nov 03, 2018 9:55 am

khall wrote:
kande I really cannot see where Trump supporters are coming from.


Oh I can. Just like the rest of us, they look at the evidence and then pick the candidate whose ideas seem to be the closest to their own.

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Re: Do MC and I really have different gripes with Trump?

Postby Tarlo Farm » Sun Feb 17, 2019 8:09 pm

kande50 wrote:
khall wrote:
kande I really cannot see where Trump supporters are coming from.


Oh I can. Just like the rest of us, they look at the evidence and then pick the candidate whose ideas seem to be the closest to their own.


I'd feel better if I thought that were true. I think there was a hoard of racists who couldn't stand we had a black President and his family, and couldn't stand HC for an assortment of reasons, not the least of which was that she was President Obama's SoS. And now we also see that Russia had a hand in manipulating the emotions of such people.

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Re: Do MC and I really have different gripes with Trump?

Postby kande50 » Mon Feb 18, 2019 6:39 pm

Tarlo Farm wrote:
I'd feel better if I thought that were true. I think there was a hoard of racists who couldn't stand we had a black President and his family, and couldn't stand HC for an assortment of reasons, not the least of which was that she was President Obama's SoS. And now we also see that Russia had a hand in manipulating the emotions of such people.


Unfortunately, some of the ideas that are closest to their own are the racist and/or sexist ones.

I know a lot of people who voted for Trump, and they're unapologetic about what they believe because they're convinced that they're "right", and those who don't agree with them are "wrong".

It's also not lost on me that they're exactly the same as "us" when it comes to defending what we believe.

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Re: Do MC and I really have different gripes with Trump?

Postby Tarlo Farm » Mon Feb 18, 2019 11:42 pm

Except we have facts and truth on our side.

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Re: Do MC and I really have different gripes with Trump?

Postby Chancellor » Tue Feb 19, 2019 1:34 pm

Tarlo Farm wrote:
I'd feel better if I thought that were true. I think there was a hoard of racists who couldn't stand we had a black President and his family, and couldn't stand HC for an assortment of reasons, not the least of which was that she was President Obama's SoS. And now we also see that Russia had a hand in manipulating the emotions of such people.


I did not vote for Trump but I know several people who did. I didn't vote for HC either. I can't stand her.
The people I know who voted for Trump voted for a change in the way things were run. Not because we had a black president.

Our government is way too corrupt. PACs with money can manipulate the way votes happen. Basically buy a candidate. I think that some people who voted for Trump thought he would change things. I wish that were true.

The founding fathers never expected that being in government would be a lifelong job. Naively, they thought that politicians would not be "for sale".

How many times do we hear "so and so" voted against X.....when in fact, it turns out they voted against something ELSE in the bill and the X in the first statement happened to just be added to that bill and had nothing to do with X. Our government is a mess.

Tarlo--You say you have facts and truth on your side. Do you honestly believe that the people who support Trump are doing so blindly and don't think exactly what you just said. Do you honestly think they don't think they have facts and truth on THEIR SIDE? Mind you I am not saying either side has facts and truths. But pointing out that BOTH sides think they have facts and truths.

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Re: Do MC and I really have different gripes with Trump?

Postby WheresMyWhite » Tue Feb 19, 2019 3:22 pm

Chancellor wrote:I think that some people who voted for Trump thought he would change things. I wish that were true.


Unfortunately, I think Trump has changed things... just not always for the better :(

Chancellor wrote:Tarlo--You say you have facts and truth on your side. Do you honestly believe that the people who support Trump are doing so blindly and don't think exactly what you just said. Do you honestly think they don't think they have facts and truth on THEIR SIDE? Mind you I am not saying either side has facts and truths. But pointing out that BOTH sides think they have facts and truths.


This yes. Both sides in an argument/disagreement often feel they are in the right and have facts, evidence, truth to back them up. Statistics can often be made to prove just about anything. One person's truth is not all people's truth.

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Re: Do MC and I really have different gripes with Trump?

Postby Chancellor » Tue Feb 19, 2019 5:53 pm

I agree WMW. I'm not a fan of Trump. I am in shock that enough people voted for him to become president. And frankly even more in shock that he hasn't been assassinated. He is so polarizing.
What I don't understand is how anyone can listen to him pontificate and say that he is the best this. And the ultimate that.
I hate listening to him.


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