What is your feeling on refugees?

[Rhianon]

Chancellor, I don't point out the fact of Canada being a nation of immigrants as good or bad. Just as a fact that the Syrian refugees or economic migrants aren't a new thing on the planet. Just part of an ongoing process.

And you're right. They don't have to change their culture. Especially in Canada--we are not a melting pot, we're a mosaic. You may wear a niqab in Canada when you take the oath of citizenship. Not something I personally agree with (face covering for men or women) but our Charter defends that right. So, yes, I personally hope that more liberal attitudes to women will emerge as the next generation is exposed to other ideas. And from what I have seen, I think the chances of that are best if we embrace rather than exclude.

[Just realized that in my original post--in the part you quoted--I tangled up my negatives and referred to hijab when I meant niqab. Now edited to clarify what I really meant to say.]

[Chancellor]

Rhianon, that would be nice if their attitudes toward women would be better! And I agree that the chances are pretty good too.

[Tabby]

Their attitudes toward women will change after they've been here for a while. They really don't have any choice since they'll be dealing with women for everything from getting their driver's license to negotiating a mortgage at the bank. Women's equality is a protected right here so there's nothing they can do about it. A few have tried in the past but to no avail. We had a guy on a 12 month contract at our work who refused to train under a woman. They accommodated him but then he started to harass women in the lunch room. He mostly picked on other muslim women, telling them that they were asking to be raped because they didn't wear a niqab. Others overheard these statements and reported him to management. They moved him around the department a little and when his contract ended, they didn't renew it. The thing was, they had advertised a permanent position while he was here and of course he applied to it. He didn't get it and he was extremely and vocally upset about it. Someone told him straight to his face that there is no room for misogyny at this workplace and if he really wants to know why he didn't get the job he had better look up that word. I heard he tried something similar at another lab.

Most muslims, men and women, who have worked with us have been very respectful and nothing like that at all. There just isn't room for that sort of attitude in our culture and our charter of rights protects women from having to deal with it.

[westisbest]

The charter didn't protect the Shafia women who were murdered as a family in Kingston. Or several other "honour" killlings in B.C.

[Rhianon]

The charter didn't protect the Shafia women who were murdered as a family in Kingston. Or several other "honour" killlings in B.C.

I'm not sure what you mean. No charter can make it so nobody is able to break the law. Canadian laws do prosecute for this crime.

[Spiritpaws]

My ancestors are First Nations people on one side, and immigrants on the other. I have been raised seeing both sides of the coin.

The US has among the tightest refugee policies in the world. Know how hard it is to get a green card here? It takes years. Case in point: 2 Afghan families, working as translators for the US military in Kabul. Death threats on the family from the Taliban. Took two years for them to get into the US as refugees. These people WORKED for us. Risked their lives for us. One of the translator's said he didn't go outside his house for 2 years in Afghanistan while he waited for the US to approve his immigration.
So now we need more stringent policies? And the bill passed by the House is so insane, no refugee would get admitted. You can't have the Head's of three different government agencies have to sign their names to each refugee's papers. That means no Syrian gets in. That's not caution, that's discrimination.

Why have we become so selfish so utterly lacking in compassion...and then there is France, who having just gone through a terrible terrorist attack, is going to allow in 25,000 syrian refugees. Seems the French are more enlightened than we are.

[WheresMyWhite]

Not sure what refugee and permanent resident status have to do with each other. There are many in this country who are on temporary visas that don't want a "green card" (permanent resident).

I suspect many refugees might also like to return to their country of origin if it was settled and less risky or dangerous.

Out of curiosity, what is a "First Nation" people? I have not heard that term before.

[Rhianon]

In Canada, First Nations refers to the many different peoples who were here before European contact.

Edited to correct my error: First Nations does not include Inuit.

[Canyon]

Thanks for the interesting discussion. I lean towards admitting more Syrian immigrants as the compassionate choice, but understand the caution.

And, I might add that Mary and Joseph from the Bible were not refugees. They were going back to Bethlehem for a census and all of the "hotels" were full.

FWIW, there is more to the story. Joseph, Mary, and Jesus supposedly fled to Egypt to avoid Herod's massacre of the innocents.

[Tabby]

"First Nations" is the current politically correct term for native people in Canada. I believe it is an actual official term and I'm ashamed to admit that I have no idea what the exact origin is. We can't say "Indian" anymore is about all I know. I don't know if American natives have a similar term or not.

[WheresMyWhite]

I believe the original occupants are referred to as Native American (at least I think so).

Also helps to avoid confusion with "Indian" which to me now really means people from the country of India

[Rhianon]

Ya know, I got curious about the terminology and found this interesting summary:

http://indigenousfoundations.arts.ubc.c ... ology.html

This summary explains that I was wrong because Inuit--who were certainly here prior to European settlement--are not considered part of First Nations.

From my personal experience in dealing with First Nations educators, the term is important to them because it emphasizes the fact that the government of Canada should deal with the various groups on a nation-to-nation basis. This gets really important when it comes to land claims. The assertion of First Nations is that any land in Canada that has never been covered by a treaty belongs to the people who were here before Canada existed as a nation. That gets complicated, of course, because there were and are many different peoples who often claim the same traditional territories.

[Sidepass]

Having a husband who has worked in Veteran's Affairs, there has always been issues with them not getting needed services. Or at least since Vietnam. Americans, the gov't have all glossed past the issues for decades. It only seems to come to the forefront of arguments when it is convenient and helps some other argument. The issue should not be mixed in with the current refugee plight.

Where I grew up I remember the hatred for the Hmong refugees and their different culture and religion. Our battle made them refugees. I see a similar thing today. Our invasion gave life to ISIS and now people are fleeing terrors most of us can barely imagine. And now there is another batch of unwanted refugees.

What we need to figure out is how they are so good at radicalizing and what can be done to combat it. The French woman was nicknamed cowboy because of the hat she wore. She wore western clothes until radicalized. How many Americans (born here, non-Muslim upbringing) have been radicalized. They are winning hearts and minds. The rest of the world needs to find a way to stop this. Are these people basically wired the same as our mass shooters. They both go into places with the goal to kill as many as they can before being killed. One group just uses a religious angle to justify it.

Leaving children to grow up with that, do you honestly expect them grow up as peaceful people? Gangs here recruit children from their neighborhood. They are indoctrinated from an early age. It is very hard for parents to break the cycle. I would expect the same there. Children left in ISIS controlled areas will grow up as the next generation.

While I think there needs to be help, I'm not sure of the answer. I don't know if the hatred here would prove to be a breeding ground make terrorists. What I do know is if I hear 1 more person go I'm a good Christian, BUT, I'll scream. I don't remember those bible phrases with but - I would help you BUT. I would heal you, but, I would save you but. Jesus gave his life - there was no BUT. We are afraid to show compassion because something bad might happen, but somehow we are sure if we don't show compassion nothing bad will happen.

[Tabby]

Thanks Rhianon. There have been so many terms thrown around since I can remember - I don't really know what is what. DH is 1/4 Cree and he doesn't even know what to call himself.

Sidepass, you make some very good points. I often wonder how some people choose the paths that they do. Sometimes it's clear - poverty, hopelessness and whatnot but what do we make of kids growing up in middle class American (or Canadian) families, with all of the privileges and benefits - turning to things like gangs or terrorist groups (they are pretty much the same thing when you think about it). I also hear you about the "good Christian" thing. It makes me sad, actually. I am not particularly religious myself, but I was raised in a Christian home - went to church and Sunday school and learned about Jesus and all that. Very little of what I hear coming from those who claim to be "Christians" resembles any of the lessons I learned as a child. I think the entire religion has been hijacked. I hate to categorize my parents - who were loving, thoughtful and compassionate - with the group of people who call themselves Christians today.