What will it take for gun lovers to say ENOUGH

[carpevita]

I am very afraid of some people who are suffering from mental illness, not afraid of guns at all.
Our state mental hospital was closed and the patients now live in group homes or on the street.
Those folks---the ones who cant or wont stay medicated and are wandering the streets are much more scary than the poor souls staring vacantly from their smoking porches.
I don't know what the answer is---but imho mental instability is a vastly bigger problem than guns themselves.
(btw, the man I know of who is a convicted murderer heard voices telling him to kill--he couldn't find a gun so he picked up a brick and bashed a woman's head in instead--same effect and I am not scared of bricks now either).

Otoh, YES tighten the laws, get rid of the loop holes and make gun ownership an insured and licensed affair.
Not ONE of those restrictions will stop a criminal, but law abiding folks will do it properly and perhaps mentally ill patients will be better screened.
One can hope.

[WheresMyWhite]

Our state mental hospital was closed and the patients now live in group homes or on the street.

Or in jail... jails frequently house people who should have a mental hospital to go to but most are, as you said, closed. The ones left are often very hard to get in to.

[carpevita]

Hmm, does anyone know the stats on gun violence since the mental hospitals were closed?

[Tabby]

Oh I wouldn't say I'm not afraid of the mentally ill. I am. I understand that most are non-violent AND that most people will experience some period of mental illness within their lives and many will fail to seek treatment due to the stigma which I've just admitted to buying into. My problem in this regard is that we really know very little about mental illness. We can diagnose only a few conditions reasonably accurately and can treat even fewer. We are at the stage of knowledge we were with astronomy when we thought the sun circled the earth. We desperately need some serious research into mental illness but even still we are looking at a century or more before we make any significant breakthrough.

That is why we need to look at gun control now. That IS something that can have immediate results. True there are crazies out there who will find a way to maim or kill with any number of objects at hand but nothing wipes out a room full of people quickly like a gun.

[carpevita]

Tabby you're so right. People suffering from any mental illness can be so terrified of the diagnosis, not to mention the stigma--of which I am guilty too I'm afraid--its no wonder its so terribly difficult to make headway. Dealing with this requires utmost compassion and understanding, as well as firmness regarding treatment.
I've suffered from depression and anxiety since I was a child----some people in my family were simply outraged at the dx --not in MY family!!
The stigma is almost too huge to comprehend.

A young man of my acquaintance is most likely suffering from paranoid schizophrenia and he flatly refuses help with it. His mother has the dx and he is horrified and bitter that he has symptoms. Knowing what his mother's life has been like--in and out of breakdowns and hospitalisations, unable to really function in her life--I get why he is so angry at the world and the unfair hand he's been dealt.
And yet I am afraid of the toxic cocktail of his anger and that particular disease--at 22 yo there's no one to make him comply w dr's orders, and so he wanders the streets sometimes hearing voices, always self medicating, and a so far a sad life unfolding.

[boots-aregard]

Another mass shooting taking place in San Bernardino. This is just one website picked from a couple available on TOB.

http://www.occupydemocrats.com/breaking ... e-updates/

[Figgy]

and this time its the mentally ill and the disabled who are the targets

the entire debate shift from gun control to mental illness control is totally mind boggling. Mental health is a relatively new medical field and we still don't understand it. Furthermore, I saw some stats where only 1% of the mass shooters in the US were mentally ill or had mental illness historys - the majority of the murderers were sane law abiding gun owners up until the day they decided to murder large numbers of innocent people with guns.

Reducing the number of guns in society works, its been proven to work.

deflecting the debate from 'gun control' to 'mental illness' especially in a country that won't spend money on public health (preferring to fritter it away on health insurance and private sector) is the madness. Your NRA are the ones supporting the 'rights' of these murderers to carry guns and their 'right' to protect themselves by murdering the innocent and the vunerable in your society.

Wow. Go the NRA. Go hard with supporting the rights of murderers to keep on murdering en masse.

[Tsuy]

So Sad that once again the defenseless have been massacred
Why can t these tough guys shot up the NRA meetings
So sad that those who CAN do something WILL NOT

[KathyK]

deflecting the debate from 'gun control' to 'mental illness' especially in a country that won't spend money on public health (preferring to fritter it away on health insurance and private sector) is the madness.

It's the easy way out for those who won't consider that easy access to guns is the real problem.

[WheresMyWhite]

It's the easy way out for those who won't consider that easy access to guns is the real problem.

Then I'll "take the easy way out" as I don't believe that easy access to guns is the real problem... we've had easy access to gun for hundreds of years and now all of a sudden it's the problem???

[Tsuy]

It's the easy way out for those who won't consider that easy access to guns is the real problem.

Then I'll "take the easy way out" as I don't believe that easy access to guns is the real problem... we've had easy access to gun for hundreds of years and now all of a sudden it's the problem???

No the Problem is eons old - YOUR countrymen have been killing each other since the Ol' Wild West Shoot em up days
Other Countries have moved into the current Century and have become safer Civilised Societies

Why is it Some people refuse to move with the times and Protect their people especially the children and the handicapped

[WheresMyWhite]

Why is it Some people refuse to move with the times and Protect their people especially the children and the handicapped

Now we're adding the handicapped into the 'save the children' war cry??? Why were the disabled never mentioned before as a target group???

[Tsuy]

Why is it Some people refuse to move with the times and Protect their people especially the children and the handicapped

Now we're adding the handicapped into the 'save the children' war cry??? Why were the disabled never mentioned before as a target group???

Reports here this morning said this latest massacre were on a school for the disabled
My Apologies for getting the victims wrong - it matters not to them they dead - you can roll your eyes as much as you like - they will still be DEAD

[WheresMyWhite]

Why is it Some people refuse to move with the times and Protect their people especially the children and the handicapped

Now we're adding the handicapped into the 'save the children' war cry??? Why were the disabled never mentioned before as a target group???

Reports here this morning said this latest massacre were on a school for the disabled
My Apologies for getting the victims wrong - it matters not to them they dead - you can roll your eyes as much as you like - they will still be DEAD

I guess my point is that all lives matter or no lives matter. Calling out "special" groups to me feels like the non-special people aren't as "important".

[Figgy]

Following the news report about today's mass shooting.

How can any sane person justify assault weapons being freely available in the community? They are not suitable for sporting, they are solely designed to kill lots of people quickly, and that is what they were used for today.

There have been 352 'mass' shootings in the USA this year, a mass shooting is defined as 4 or more victims, this averages out to more than one shooting per day in the US, so qnyone who claims that 'shouldn't discuss gun control today' is talking out of their arse because every day is a mass shooting day in the US.

Then, California is actually one of the states with a lower rate of gun deaths and shootings, the mid west is worse. So if the mid west is the safe heartland of the US and yet you are more likely to be a victim of gun violence there, how can anyone claim that 'guns keep you safe?'

Guns don't 'keep you safe', guns are for killing. Nothing 'safe' about that.

Then to see the crackpot conspiracy theorists on social media already claiming that this is a government plot to take guns from citizens. WTF?

This is murderers murdering people.

[Tsuy]

Now we're adding the handicapped into the 'save the children' war cry??? Why were the disabled never mentioned before as a target group???

Reports here this morning said this latest massacre were on a school for the disabled
My Apologies for getting the victims wrong - it matters not to them they dead - you can roll your eyes as much as you like - they will still be DEAD

I guess my point is that all lives matter or no lives matter. Calling out "special" groups to me feels like the non-special people aren't as "important".

so I take it you are with the later choice
These peeps are DEAD - as in not going home for Christmas - not having anymore birthdays with their loved ones .....
as in really dead - it seem that that does not matter to YOU as long as YOU have YOUR right to pack your pistol

and the YOU is all of you who are not actively saying NO to this civil war

[Spiritpaws]

I think it is time for a national referendum. Forget Congress. Put a national referendum on gun control on the ballet for 2016. Let the people speak: not through their elected officials because they are bought and paid for.

The referendum should include: ban on assault weapons/30 day mandatory hold on any fire arm purchases/ ban on gun sales through gun shows (with the exception of antique, collectable guns)/ mandatory license and testing for firearm ownership/ federal tax on bullets.

[carpevita]

the entire debate shift from gun control to mental illness control is totally mind boggling. Mental health is a relatively new medical field and we still don't understand it. Furthermore, I saw some stats where only 1% of the mass shooters in the US were mentally ill or had mental illness historys - the majority of the murderers were sane law abiding gun owners up until the day they decided to murder large numbers of innocent people with guns.



deflecting the debate from 'gun control' to 'mental illness' especially in a country that won't spend money on public health (preferring to fritter it away on health insurance and private sector) is the madness. Your NRA are the ones supporting the 'rights' of these murderers to carry guns and their 'right' to protect themselves by murdering the innocent and the vunerable in your society.

.

So now we aren't allowed to discuss possible reasons for the extreme violence we are experiencing?

[KathyK]

It's the easy way out for those who won't consider that easy access to guns is the real problem.

Then I'll "take the easy way out" as I don't believe that easy access to guns is the real problem... we've had easy access to gun for hundreds of years and now all of a sudden it's the problem???

Times change, and society has to change, too. Did it ever occur to you that people who are on the no-fly list can purchase weapons legally? My safety trumps any civillian's right to wave a gun around.

[Chisamba]

Did it ever occur to you that you can be put on the no fly list because some one does not like the sound of your name.

Having had to rescue some one from basically being held prisoner at the airport for having a similar name to some one on the no flu list... Ten hours of trying to prove you are who you say you are...


On the other hand, am almost ready to give in to paranoia and arm myself.

[WheresMyWhite]

so I take it you are with the later choice

If that is what you wish to believe, knock yourself out...

[musical comedy]

Some clarification.
From the good sources I've read, the attack was not at the disabled people that use the facilities of the Inland Regional Center. The conference room on the 2nd floor of the center is for staff and is rented out and was used for a Christmas Party for San Bernadino Department of Public Health. One of the shooters worked for them and was at the party. So, from what I've read, the attack was specifically intended for those in attendance at that party.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/san ... er-n473016

[Tabby]

So now we aren't allowed to discuss possible reasons for the extreme violence we are experiencing?

It seems that in the US you are allowed to discuss possible reasons for extreme violence so long as none of those reasons is easy access to all sorts of guns. I am gobsmacked when I hear or read someone scold someone else for daring to politicize someone's loss by talking about guns while they are still mourning and the grief is so fresh. That is the biggest load of hogwash ever! If someone you loved died of cancer, you would be doing everything you can to support cancer research. You would even request donations in lieu of flowers at the funeral. If someone was killed by a drunk driver you would become a flag-bearer for MADD - and you would expect others around you to support you in this. I know someone who lost a niece at Sandy Hook and she was made to feel like she couldn't discuss the mechanism of death because it was too political. Imagine that.

Guns are an American religion. The pro gun supporters are like the creationists who believe the world is 6000 years old regardless of what scientific evidence shows. Gun control is a sin in their religion and must not be talked about no matter what. As long as this religion rules the land, you will continue to have mass shooting after mass shooting after mass shooting.

Go ahead and discuss any possible reason for violence you want (except guns). I might also point out that you've done nothing at all about any of these other reasons either.

[boots-aregard]

It's a very foolish perspective, BUT we aren't required to honor it.

Talk about guns all you want. I think we should begin looking at ways to reduce them (not ban them) and start with the guns whose only purpose is mass killing (versus self defense and hunting).

We will never completely end violence toward other humans. But we can and should (and will: it's happening now over time) REDUCE it.

[WheresMyWhite]

It seems that in the US you are allowed to discuss possible reasons for extreme violence so long as none of those reasons is easy access to all sorts of guns. I am gobsmacked when I hear or read someone scold someone else for daring to politicize someone's loss by talking about guns while they are still mourning and the grief is so fresh. That is the biggest load of hogwash ever! If someone you loved died of cancer, you would be doing everything you can to support cancer research. You would even request donations in lieu of flowers at the funeral. If someone was killed by a drunk driver you would become a flag-bearer for MADD - and you would expect others around you to support you in this.

And you know that we should all think, feel and behave as you describe with respect to the events above???

You know I'd ask for donations in lieu of flowers? You know I'd become a card-carrying member of MADD???

So happy you can speak for all of us.

[myleetlepony]

How can any sane person justify assault weapons being freely available in the community?

The referendum should include: ban on assault weapons

start with the guns whose only purpose is mass killing (versus self defense and hunting).

Just for clarifications here; assault weapons (AKA fully automatic weapons) are NOT freely available on the market. In most states they are outright banned, and in other states, they require further background checks and permits.

AR-15's (not fully automatic), which are used in a lot of these shootings, are actually hunting rifles.

[Tsuy]

https://www.facebook.com/SenatorDurbin/ ... 6/?fref=nf

It looks Tragic to us on the 'Safe' Outside but I guess it is how the USA wants it - A big strong country - says they are a Super Power so I guess if they wanted change they would make it.

I wonder how many have to die - it there a number that is too many?

[carpevita]

"If someone you loved died of cancer, you would be doing everything you can to support cancer research. You would even request donations in lieu of flowers at the funeral. If someone was killed by a drunk driver you would become a flag-bearer for MADD - and you would expect others around you to support you in this."

Actually no, I did neither.

[KathyK]

"If someone you loved died of cancer, you would be doing everything you can to support cancer research. You would even request donations in lieu of flowers at the funeral. If someone was killed by a drunk driver you would become a flag-bearer for MADD - and you would expect others around you to support you in this."

Actually no, I did neither.

But you're not angry when others do.

[carpevita]

To be clear--Tabby wrote the first part of the above quote--my response was that I did neither.


And sure Kathy, given the circumstances I have good reasons to be angry, AND I own a Glock.
So what stops ME from shooting up a crowd of innocents?
My mental stability? My religious beliefs? My fear of prison? My love of peace and harmony?

I truly believe gun laws need to be smarter and better enforced, all the while knowing that the 'bad' guys are chuckling about those silly laws and gleefully going about their business.

[KathyK]

To be clear--Tabby wrote the first part of the above quote--my response was that I did neither.

Yes, I know. Here it all is again, so I can better make my point:

If someone you loved died of cancer, you would be doing everything you can to support cancer research. You would even request donations in lieu of flowers at the funeral. If someone was killed by a drunk driver you would become a flag-bearer for MADD - and you would expect others around you to support you in this.

Actually no, I did neither.

And sure Kathy, given the circumstances I have good reasons to be angry, AND I own a Glock.
So what stops ME from shooting up a crowd of innocents?
My mental stability? My religious beliefs? My fear of prison? My love of peace and harmony?

I truly believe gun laws need to be smarter and better enforced, all the while knowing that the 'bad' guys are chuckling about those silly laws and gleefully going about their business.

So it seems I didn't make myself clear. Here's my point:

When people get upset and want to take some action about cancer or drunk drivers or gang violence or myriad other causes of misery and death, other people don't get angry and come up with all kinds of reasons they shouldn't take action. When people get upset and want to take some action about the carnage caused by guns, the gun lovers get angry and come up with all sorts of reasons we should just accept the death and destruction caused by mass shootings. Or they claim it's a "mental health" issue, which is BS.

[Tabby]

WMW - nowhere in my last post did I say that you personally would or wouldn't do anything. This is a public forum - when people use the word "you" they mean it in a general sense unless they have singled you out personally like I have done in this sentence.

Carpevita, I did write the first part of Kathy's quote. Maybe you don't do these either.

Speaking to all (as in general, not personally pointed at any specific person), if you scan your local obituary page on any given day you will see tons of requests for donations in lieu of flowers. If you go to your local "Run for the Cure" or similar event and interview a few participants you will discover that many of them are either survivors or have lost loved ones due to whatever disease they are raising money for. If you call up your local MADD organization and ask the people there why they joined, you will find the same thing. Sure there may be people who just want to volunteer for the sake of contributing positively to society (believe it or not there are still selfless people around), but most of them will have joined due to a personal loss. All of this is perfectly acceptable.

But when a child is gunned down in a school, you can't support the parents by opposing guns because that's too political.

[WheresMyWhite]

But when a child is gunned down in a school, you can't support the parents by opposing guns because that's too political.

It seems to be only black and white for some. Can I not support the parents in other ways than having to do something that I don't agree with?

I don't and won't "oppose" guns. Could changes be made... most likely. But I will not blanket agree with what a parent might want just to show "support".

It feels like I must agree on your terms in order to show that I care. That most likely will not happen (the agree part, not the care part - I suspect it is already assumed I don't care so I'll call that good as it isn't work trying to discuss).

[Code3]

IMO we should all be mad as hell and be saying enough is enough. There is no excuse for our country, my country, to have a mass shooting every friggin' day. It is complicated, it is about a lot of things, but it is also about guns. Listen, to be clear, I own an AR-15, two shotguns, and multiple handguns. I'm not anti-gun. But I would happily register every weapon, qualify every year, and relinquish the AR if that was best for society as a whole. None of these people deserved to die at a holiday party with co-workers. None of the people at Planned Parenthood deserved to die. None of the people in church in Charleston deserved to die. And on and on... This is outrageous and I cannot for the life of me figure out why people aren't mad as hell and saying they aren't going to take it any more. Maybe we are beat down. I don't know but even my most conservative gun-rights friends are saying enough.

[Tabby]

But when a child is gunned down in a school, you can't support the parents by opposing guns because that's too political.

It seems to be only black and white for some. Can I not support the parents in other ways than having to do something that I don't agree with?

I don't and won't "oppose" guns. Could changes be made... most likely. But I will not blanket agree with what a parent might want just to show "support".

It feels like I must agree on your terms in order to show that I care. That most likely will not happen (the agree part, not the care part - I suspect it is already assumed I don't care so I'll call that good as it isn't work trying to discuss).

You can support the parents any way you want. I have not suggested otherwise. The problem is, I (and others like me) cannot because what we really want to do is get some better gun control and that is considered improper and too political.

I have not suggested you don't care - stop twisting my words.

[emmalou]

They are now calling this Islamic terrorism. The wife "pledged allegiance" to ISIS? WTF woman does that?

[digihorse]

They are now calling this Islamic terrorism. The wife "pledged allegiance" to ISIS? WTF woman does that?

One who wasn't born here. One who probably had an agenda when she married an American as a mail order bride. Also interesting that he quit his Mosque shortly after returning with her from Saudi Arabi. She "turned him".

[Spiritpaws]

The sad truth is, that in a week or two weeks or a month there will be another mass shooting. It may come from ISIS inspired terrorism, or could be home-grown like the Charleston shooter, or the Sandy Hook shooter, or the Planned Parenthood shooter. The point is: the reality of living in the US right now is that we are subjected to this violence because we won't deal with the guns.

Our country has 357 million guns and 317 million people. 40 MILLION more guns than people. Why not 40 million more flower gardens, or 40 million more vegetable gardens, or 40 million more trees? Because the US is the biggest producer and exporter of weapons. What ever happened to "thou shalt not kill"?

[emmalou]

They are now calling this Islamic terrorism. The wife "pledged allegiance" to ISIS? WTF woman does that?

One who wasn't born here. One who probably had an agenda when she married an American as a mail order bride. Also interesting that he quit his Mosque shortly after returning with her from Saudi Arabi. She "turned him".

One of the 9/11 hijackers worked at a gas station I used to use to fill up my work truck when I worked for the State the summer of 2001. I remember my 21 year old self being so horrified that a person could live in our beautiful city, encounter people just like me every day and hate us so much that he carried out that act of atrocity.

I'm equally horrified at this. Redlands is a beautiful, nice, middle class area. He had a good government job. They had a new baby. How could they hate us so much?

This is close to home for me and I worry about what they really had planned. My gut is the work shooting was purely a rage fueled impulsive act and not what they were intending.

[Code3]

There is so much hate being expressed every day but ordinary citizens. Listen to what Trump is saying. It is horrifying, and his numbers keep going up. We have less and less tolerance for different opinions. We no longer have discussions, we have arguments and put downs and ridicule and cruelty. I'm a cop and fairly cynical but I want to live in the world Spiritpaws describes. I see enough at work (and I only work part time these days investiging sexual assaults on a college campus) and I sure don't want to come home to open FB and see hateful memes. Why the need to hate so much? Have we always been this way? Has the internet created it or exposed it?

[emmalou]

Agreed Code3. I think the internet not only gives it a platform but fuels it. How many of your friends post ridiculous memes and believe them to be true? Quite a few of mine do and don't bother to take 5 seconds to google. So many people are so outraged and misinformed and I do blame it on the internet.

[boots-aregard]

I'm equally horrified at this. Redlands is a beautiful, nice, middle class area. He had a good government job. They had a new baby. How could they hate us so much?

It's not much comfort, but I don't think it's about them actually hating us so much. Fanatics aren't even experiencing the same reality we are. They are caught up in some magical future promise (the ISIS/Daesh folks anyway) that requires the firm resolve of a few martyrs (that will be rewarded in heaven) and the world twists into a reality you and I can't even recognize. We're just stage dressing in their way.

Now, Timothy McVeigh? He hated us. But he was us, too, so I'm not sure how that works.

[emmalou]

Us vs Them

Our rather large Muslim community has been crying out that this is no different than Charleston or PP. Intellectually, I agree. Emotionally though, I think Americans very much have an Us vs Them mentality. We are a patriotic lot. We love our country, warts and all. Patriotism is drummed in to us our entire lives, wanted or not - even our young boys pledge to God and Country before Little League games. Homegrown terrorism is an us. It's a crazy person that snapped. I think it's much harder to wrap our minds around someone who comes to a pretty cushy, safe life here from a poverty stricken backasswards country and commits a crime like this.

I do wonder if the discussion would be different had he committed this himself without the presence of what appears to be a radicalized, Pakistani wife. He was an Us.

[Tuffytown]

How much of the relentless pointing fingers at muslims and demonizing them helps in making them feel they are our enemy. He may have originally been one of us but with the constant hatred directed at them in what is supposedly their own country why wouldn't their allegiance be damaged. Not an excuse, obviously as some will claim. Pointing out the reasons behind something is not excusing it.

[boots-aregard]

How much of the relentless pointing fingers at muslims and demonizing them helps in making them feel they are our enemy. He may have originally been one of us but with the constant hatred directed at them in what is supposedly their own country why wouldn't their allegiance be damaged. Not an excuse, obviously as some will claim. Pointing out the reasons behind something is not excusing it.

I wonder about this. I was working on the cultural orientation booklet for the IRC and rewording a discussion section on US values (particularly those codified in law) versus what *might* be the different values brought with immigrants to the U.S., and wondering what it would mean to a refugee to be told we believe in equality, in freedom, but to experience the racism and bigotry that's out there in our country today.

Now, in this case, of course, the man was born here. He grew up here. His culture is our culture, though I've no doubt his experience of it was different than mine, for example, because of his religion, sex, skin tone, etc. But it is really hard to get your head around, isn't it?

[outsiderein]

IMO we should all be mad as hell and be saying enough is enough. There is no excuse for our country, my country, to have a mass shooting every friggin' day. It is complicated, it is about a lot of things, but it is also about guns. Listen, to be clear, I own an AR-15, two shotguns, and multiple handguns. I'm not anti-gun. But I would happily register every weapon, qualify every year, and relinquish the AR if that was best for society as a whole. None of these people deserved to die at a holiday party with co-workers. None of the people at Planned Parenthood deserved to die. None of the people in church in Charleston deserved to die. And on and on... This is outrageous and I cannot for the life of me figure out why people aren't mad as hell and saying they aren't going to take it any more. Maybe we are beat down. I don't know but even my most conservative gun-rights friends are saying enough.

Thank you. Probably the most cogent post on this thread, and coming from an expert.

There is so much hate being expressed every day but ordinary citizens. Listen to what Trump is saying. It is horrifying, and his numbers keep going up. We have less and less tolerance for different opinions. We no longer have discussions, we have arguments and put downs and ridicule and cruelty. I'm a cop and fairly cynical but I want to live in the world Spiritpaws describes. I see enough at work (and I only work part time these days investigation sexual assaults on a college campus) and I sure don't want to come home to open FB and see hateful memes. Why the need to hate so much? Have we always been this way? Has the internet created it or exposed it?

IMO this all started with Rush Limbaugh. With him and his imitators it is all hate, all the time. With enough truth sprinkled into the lies to make it believable to people who don't bother to check the references. And get them all riled up. Day after day after day. The internet makes it worse, because anyone can post anything. Just to be clear, the left isn't much better. I have had to learn to ignore the headlines and go to the source. Because often the leap the progressive "news" blogs (thinkprogress, dailykos, etc.) make between what was actually said or happened, and the conclusions they draw and publish in their headlines is quite outrageous. I have to avoid getting sucked in, because it is very easy to become outraged if all you have time to read is the headlines. But the constant diatribe started with the right/far right, and they continue to dominate. Trump is simply parroting things that have already been said by the talking heads.

[emmalou]

How much of the relentless pointing fingers at muslims and demonizing them helps in making them feel they are our enemy. He may have originally been one of us but with the constant hatred directed at them in what is supposedly their own country why wouldn't their allegiance be damaged. Not an excuse, obviously as some will claim. Pointing out the reasons behind something is not excusing it.

Constant hatred? Do you think Muslims are discriminated against any more than women, hispanics, blacks, non-muslim arabs?

[Tuffytown]

I wouldn't know if they are actively discriminated against more or less than those other groups as I am not in a position to see actual interactions for all those groups. I do think there is a lot of intolerance directed towards them moreso than those other groups publicly on social media etc.. While lots of nasty things are said about blacks,hispanics etc. I don't think I have seen calls to just exterminate them all as I have towards muslims. The rhetoric seems to be more violent than discriminatory.

[KathyK]

While lots of nasty things are said about blacks,hispanics etc. I don't think I have seen calls to just exterminate them all as I have towards muslims. The rhetoric seems to be more violent than discriminatory.

Exactly.

[Spiritpaws]

The rhetoric may be more violent than discriminatory towards muslims, but there are a whole lot more dead black people lying in the streets, and incarcerated in this country than muslims.

America as a culture, as a society does not value all sentient beings because we don't see any sentient beings other than those that agree with us. A culture that can spread poison like glyphosate and 2-4D on the ground, confine animals to inhumane conditions so that we can eat them, tear down every tree in a forest is a violent, discordant society. I am sorry to say this, but there is blood on all our hands.

We've got to get rid of the labels: "a black man was shot dead, this morning" needs to be "a fellow being was shot dead, this morning". We have labels so that we can categorize, and minimize others.

Want an end to violence in this country?...we need to look at our own backyards and begin there.