No discussion on Obama's gun reforms?

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No discussion on Obama's gun reforms?

Postby Tabby » Wed Jan 06, 2016 1:10 am

This place has been quiet of late but I thought for sure this would stir things up. So what do you all think? Is it enough? Too much? A good start? Or just cheap talk?

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Re: No discussion on Obama's gun reforms?

Postby WheresMyWhite » Wed Jan 06, 2016 1:43 am

Loved the crocodile tears for sure....

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Re: No discussion on Obama's gun reforms?

Postby Tabby » Wed Jan 06, 2016 2:07 am

Does that mean you think it's just lip service? I'm honestly not sure.

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Re: No discussion on Obama's gun reforms?

Postby stella » Wed Jan 06, 2016 2:17 am

WMW, what an awful thing to say. I guess people will say anything to defend indefensible positions.

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Re: No discussion on Obama's gun reforms?

Postby Spiritpaws » Wed Jan 06, 2016 11:51 am

It's a start but it is not nearly enough. Its the culture we need to fundamentally change: the culture of war and violence. The culture of killing.

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Re: No discussion on Obama's gun reforms?

Postby myleetlepony » Wed Jan 06, 2016 1:26 pm

Well, basically he's just reiterating laws already on the books; FFL dealers are already supposed to perform background checks. What remains to be seen is if someone "engaged in the business of selling firearms" is reformed to include those that sell a gun or two privately.

And those 200 extra ATF agents? Congress must vote to pass the money on that, so I can foresee it being stalled in the House or Senate.

I'm taking it as a bunch of pandering.

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Re: No discussion on Obama's gun reforms?

Postby KathyK » Wed Jan 06, 2016 1:35 pm

WheresMyWhite wrote:Loved the crocodile tears for sure....

Do you find it odd to cry over the death of children? What's the matter with you?

People who say Obama fake-cried are essentially saying he is as indifferent to the mass killing of children as they are.

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Re: No discussion on Obama's gun reforms?

Postby boots-aregard » Wed Jan 06, 2016 6:51 pm

Spiritpaws wrote:It's a start but it is not nearly enough. Its the culture we need to fundamentally change: the culture of war and violence. The culture of killing.


Thought I was hitting the like button, but oh well. Never at a loss to post my thoughts. :)

It's as much as he can do via executive order. I wish it were more, but right now it's not. Spirit is right that we have to deal with this culturally.

There are many other cultures of killing, yes, but there are also cultures that can recognize the difference between defending livestock from wolves and arming unstable people. We need to become one of those.

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Re: No discussion on Obama's gun reforms?

Postby Chancellor » Wed Jan 06, 2016 8:18 pm

Where's my White- you and I are generally one the same side. But, I think that this action by Obama is a good one. If it stops even ONE gun violence episode it has helped. I fully support the second amendment. But I think that stricter gun laws are necessary.

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Re: No discussion on Obama's gun reforms?

Postby nightlace » Wed Jan 06, 2016 11:04 pm

I respect President Obama for his courage in taking this initial step to try to curb gun violence. I also respect the emotions he showed & expressed about these senseless killings. President Obama consistently has shown he has a heart and genuinely cares about people.

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Re: No discussion on Obama's gun reforms?

Postby myleetlepony » Wed Jan 06, 2016 11:20 pm

Yet, at the same time he admitted that measures in the EO would not have stopped tragedies like Sandy Hook. So, really, this is pandering and feel good legislation.

After reading the WH site on the EO, it states that determining "in the business of selling firearms" is determined by activity, leaving those that sell one or two guns privately unaffected. How many used AR-15s does it take to create a "mass-shooting"?

As asked on OTOB, when this doesn't work, what's the next step?

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Re: No discussion on Obama's gun reforms?

Postby WheresMyWhite » Wed Jan 06, 2016 11:43 pm

myleetlepony wrote:As asked on OTOB, when this doesn't work, what's the next step?


My question as well.

I also wonder if the current POTUS is opening Pandora's box with this particular EO. I can just see the howling if a Republican is elected POTUS and initiates an EO to ban abortion... I mean, after all, how many lives does that kill?

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Re: No discussion on Obama's gun reforms?

Postby Tabby » Thu Jan 07, 2016 1:24 am

There's no comparison between abortion and guns. I'm not sure where you got that from except perhaps the hope of shock value.

I can absolutely see republicans howling over this and the only thing preventing your scenario from happening is that they haven't put forward an electable candidate. One could accuse the dems of the same but as bad as Hilary might seem, she's nothing compared to the best of the GOP and is probably running a one horse race already. I'm not trying to be snarky - I just can't see any other outcome (unless Bernie gets some more publicity). But I digress - the question is about Obama's action on guns. I'm glad he's take some action but I am undecided as to whether it is any good at all or just lip service. On the one hand, he's got nothing to lose since he's at the end of his second term. On the other hand, Sandy Hook happened under his watch and he stands to be remembered as the president who let babies die and did nothing about it.

I read today that among the various rule changes/enforcements, he's also dedicated a chunk of funding to mental health. I find that significant since Sandy Hook (and many other mass shootings) was blamed on mental health yet nobody (until this) has done a single thing at all to address mental health issues. It was as if finding a scapegoat was more important than finding a solution.

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Re: No discussion on Obama's gun reforms?

Postby myleetlepony » Thu Jan 07, 2016 4:16 am

Yea, I don't think the abortion thing would happen, at least not in the current political climate. It would take voting in a pretty die-hard republican and I don't see that happening anytime soon.

There really isn't any action taken by Obama. It's lip service and a last-ditch effort to try to salvage his reputation on his way out. Sandy Hook, California, Oregon, Colorado etc. are a pretty big black eye and cast a large shadow over his health care legacy (which is debatable if it's a good one or bad one).

Again, our Congress has to vote to release the funds for additional ATF agents, as well as funding for mental health with additional reporting, and funding for gun safety technology.

I think ultimately, what this has done is to push those people that are intent on a mass shooting into further shadows. Under current laws/practices (assuming everything is done legally), an offender could possibly pass a background check but be on the radar of an FFL dealer who may alert the ATF that "something wasn't right", or at the very least, the offender left traceable paperwork that can be scrutinized later or alert to consecutive purchases. I fear that now we have pushed them to scour the likes of Craigslist or the local gun shop's bulletin board for the one-off gun sale from a private party. This will allow them to quietly heavily arm themselves over time and no red flags will be raised.

Obama would have been better off to use EA to require that ALL gun sales, including private party, go through a FFL, which requires background checks.

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Re: No discussion on Obama's gun reforms?

Postby Code3 » Thu Jan 07, 2016 2:35 pm

I don't think its a fix, but it is a step in the right direction. He also wants money for mental health and no one seems to mention that. I am astounded that people are opposed. Do we not want to take steps to stop the shootings? If it doesn't help at all, at least we tried. But - and those of you in law enforcement know this - you may not be able to stop criminals from breaking the law but you sure as heck don't make it easier for them. I know (from the investigating detectives in another jurisdiction) of a horrendous multiple homicide where the killer said he would have walked away if the door to the home was locked. It wasn't. How many burglars only go in unlocked doors or windows? Etc. If someone wants to kill, they will. But make them work for it.

Personally I'd like to see the mental health issues shored up. One of my coworkers was murdered by a woman with a mental health history but it didn't reach the criteria of disqualifying her in purchasing and owning a firearm which she then used to murder a police officer.

Bottom line for me, Obama did what he could. It's a step in the right direction. And I don't understand how some members of Congress can sleep at night. This is so minimally inconvenient as it is.

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Re: No discussion on Obama's gun reforms?

Postby myleetlepony » Thu Jan 07, 2016 2:56 pm

Code3 wrote:don't think its a fix, but it is a step in the right direction.


It's pandering on a platform, Obama barely twitched a leg, let alone stepped anywhere.

Code3 wrote:He also wants money for mental health and no one seems to mention that.


Actually, it has been mentioned. Do you honestly think Congress is going to vote in favor of releasing those funds? :lol: I call lame duck.

Personally I'd like to see the mental health issues shored up. One of my coworkers was murdered by a woman with a mental health history but it didn't reach the criteria of disqualifying her in purchasing and owning a firearm which she then used to murder a police officer.


I would too, but how? I propose using OOPs as a similar example. It used to be pretty difficult to secure one against someone, even with a paperwork trail of harassment and stalking (if those accounts were even taking seriously to begin with). Now, at least where I live, emergency OOPs are handed like candy, causing not only major disruption in fairly innocent lives, but in some cases, destroying them. How exactly do you think this is going to work with mental health reporting without impinging on rights?

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Re: No discussion on Obama's gun reforms?

Postby Code3 » Thu Jan 07, 2016 7:45 pm

myleetlepony wrote:
Code3 wrote:don't think its a fix, but it is a step in the right direction.


It's pandering on a platform, Obama barely twitched a leg, let alone stepped anywhere.

Disagree.
myleetlepony wrote:
Code3 wrote:He also wants money for mental health and no one seems to mention that.


Actually, it has been mentioned. Do you honestly think Congress is going to vote in favor of releasing those funds? :lol: I call lame duck.

No, I don't think Congress will vote in favor. And I think it's absolutely shameful. Just because Congress may or may not act doesn't mean the president shouldn't do the right thing.
myleetlepony wrote:
Personally I'd like to see the mental health issues shored up. One of my coworkers was murdered by a woman with a mental health history but it didn't reach the criteria of disqualifying her in purchasing and owning a firearm which she then used to murder a police officer.


I would too, but how? I propose using OOPs as a similar example. It used to be pretty difficult to secure one against someone, even with a paperwork trail of harassment and stalking (if those accounts were even taking seriously to begin with). Now, at least where I live, emergency OOPs are handed like candy, causing not only major disruption in fairly innocent lives, but in some cases, destroying them. How exactly do you think this is going to work with mental health reporting without impinging on rights?

What is an OOP so that I can understand the comparison?

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Re: No discussion on Obama's gun reforms?

Postby myleetlepony » Thu Jan 07, 2016 7:58 pm

Order of Protection

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Re: No discussion on Obama's gun reforms?

Postby Code3 » Thu Jan 07, 2016 8:30 pm

Ah. Where you work must give them out must easier than where I work, then.

I can't answer "exactly" how I think it's going to work. What I know is that there are people in the mental health system that do not get picked up by a background check. But I am also not a subject expert and it would be presumptuous of me to think I can figure out a system. One doesn't have to look far beyond me to get to more intelligent and knowledgeable people to work on closing this gap.

I think to not at least TRY to fix this is a crying shame, and more people will die at the hands of persons the background should and could have picked up as having a mental health history.

This topic is near and dear to my heart.

http://www.odmp.org/officer/20827-polic ... -kilcullen

Chris' killer had a history of mental health from the time she was 19 years old.

http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-north ... lness.html

I drove the fourth car in the procession, carrying members of his family. Worst duty of my life.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLGrGUhL3hY

Should she have had a gun (one she purchased legally)? Could this have been prevented? Could this fine human being still be alive and raising his daughters with his wife? If there is even a chance of that, I think we have to try.

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Re: No discussion on Obama's gun reforms?

Postby myleetlepony » Thu Jan 07, 2016 9:12 pm

I'm not disagreeing in any way, shape or form that things *can* change.

What I'm saying is that I think it's a fallacy to believe that Obama is actually *doing* anything and is only giving the illusion of doing so to save his own reputation.

We have a lot of "frequent flyers" at work that have obvious mental health issues; I talk to them often. They would absolutely pass background checks, yet we can't even make notations in our CAD system because of HIPPA, privacy and liability laws. These are people that are true, everyday, potential dangers to our officers.

I am leaning toward the opinion that mental health is such a diverse and misunderstood topic that we are going to head down a slippery slope very quickly. One that will be irreversible and the situation will tend toward punishing the law abiding too much and the criminal not enough.

Again, had Obama declared that ALL gun purchases INCLUDING private party transfers, required BG checks then I would say "OK, he is doing something". But he didn't; all he did was reiterate laws that are already on the books, presenting it as if it's new. Then he went on to declare more ATF agents, mental health reporting, and gun safety technology research, without mentioning that all of this taking place *depends on* Congress releasing funds.

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Re: No discussion on Obama's gun reforms?

Postby Code3 » Thu Jan 07, 2016 9:50 pm

Gotcha. I think he did what he could legally. I don't think it is an illusion to save his reputation but we don't really know unless we have some good inside intel and I sure don't have any.

Complex issue. As I said, will take better minds than mine to sort it out.

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Re: No discussion on Obama's gun reforms?

Postby boots-aregard » Fri Jan 08, 2016 1:18 am

myleetlepony wrote:
Code3 wrote:don't think its a fix, but it is a step in the right direction.


It's pandering on a platform, Obama barely twitched a leg, let alone stepped anywhere.

Code3 wrote:He also wants money for mental health and no one seems to mention that.


Actually, it has been mentioned. Do you honestly think Congress is going to vote in favor of releasing those funds? :lol: I call lame duck.


It's *funny* that Congress isn't going to do _anything at all_ about mental health when virtually everybody has agreed this is a big component of the mass murders in recent years?

Surely you meant to leave a different impression than that. Can you clarify, please?

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Re: No discussion on Obama's gun reforms?

Postby myleetlepony » Fri Jan 08, 2016 1:24 am

No, it was more that people may actually believe that Congress will A-OK the funds as is. If there is a chance they do, I'm sure that there will be a lot of wrangling and deal making where something else will suffer terribly, or a compromise will be made on the original EO.

I guess I find it commical that Obama thinks Congress will agree to this in the majority. I'm sure there's a crap ton of Republicans that are working to stop this...as in they were on the phone the second he said it.

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Re: No discussion on Obama's gun reforms?

Postby WheresMyWhite » Fri Jan 08, 2016 2:02 am

So if Obama's big huge EO is just to enforce existing laws, why all the fanfare over something many of us have been suggesting all along???

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Re: No discussion on Obama's gun reforms?

Postby Code3 » Fri Jan 08, 2016 2:16 pm

WheresMyWhite wrote:So if Obama's big huge EO is just to enforce existing laws, why all the fanfare over something many of us have been suggesting all along???

Good question. Why ARE people running with their hair on fire thinking all their guns will be confiscated? By whom, is my question.

myleetlepony wrote: I guess I find it comical that Obama thinks Congress will agree to this in the majority.

I don't believe Obama thinks Congress with agree to it. I think he believes SOMETHING needs to be done, Congress needs a kick in the ass, this is barely a nudge with a boot, but it's all he can do. I think you speak up and stand up for what should be done and let someone else say "no". You don't just not try.

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Re: No discussion on Obama's gun reforms?

Postby WheresMyWhite » Fri Jan 08, 2016 2:43 pm

Code3 wrote:Good question. Why ARE people running with their hair on fire thinking all their guns will be confiscated? By whom, is my question.


Today, would/could guns be confiscated, no. Tomorrow (figuratively) if things like registration and maintaining information in database is maintained and increased, then yes, I think guns could be confiscated... by the feds or by local at the direction of the feds. IMO, it *could* happen in the future. I don't want to see the future get here.

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Re: No discussion on Obama's gun reforms?

Postby Tabby » Fri Jan 08, 2016 2:45 pm

Cars are subject to all that and nobody is confiscating them.

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Re: No discussion on Obama's gun reforms?

Postby KathyK » Fri Jan 08, 2016 3:57 pm

Tabby wrote:Cars are subject to all that and nobody is confiscating them.

Let's not confuse the issue with logic.

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Re: No discussion on Obama's gun reforms?

Postby WheresMyWhite » Fri Jan 08, 2016 5:57 pm

Tabby wrote:Cars are subject to all that and nobody is confiscating them.


How many times are we told that cars and guns aren't the same (and they are not). Now you want to play that cars and guns are the same???

No wonder it is difficult to have a discussion... sometimes the car analogy is fine while others it is not :roll:

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Re: No discussion on Obama's gun reforms?

Postby KathyK » Fri Jan 08, 2016 6:13 pm

Gun apologists use the bogus argument that there is no difference in a death by firearm and a death by car. There is a huge difference, which I will point out to you if you really need me to do that. Where cars and firearms are similar is in their ability to do damage, and the need for licensing, registration, and proof of ability to operate them safely. Is that clear enough?

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Re: No discussion on Obama's gun reforms?

Postby myleetlepony » Fri Jan 08, 2016 6:32 pm

Well, when it's been pointed out before that an individual is MUCH more likely to be harmed or killed by a vehicle, it's met with the argument that they are two totally different things.

Now, it's brought up as relevant to each other. It's flip-flopping.

So for the sake of this discussion, can we keep the subject to firearms and the relevant current actions, and leave abortion and vehicles to another debate?

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Re: No discussion on Obama's gun reforms?

Postby KathyK » Fri Jan 08, 2016 7:57 pm

myleetlepony wrote:Well, when it's been pointed out before that an individual is MUCH more likely to be harmed or killed by a vehicle, it's met with the argument that they are two totally different things.

In 2014, there were 35,543 deaths by automobiles, and 32,351 by guns. That's doesn't qualify as MUCH more, in my book. And gun deaths are expected to exceed traffic fatalities in 2015. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/ ... es-by-2015

They are very different things, and until the only purpose of getting behind the wheel is to kill or injure someone or something, they will continue to be different in that regard. That does not preclude the need to make firearms safer with gun control measures.

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Re: No discussion on Obama's gun reforms?

Postby myleetlepony » Sat Jan 09, 2016 2:43 am

KathyK wrote:In 2014, there were 35,543 deaths by automobiles, and 32,351 by guns. That's doesn't qualify as MUCH more, in my book. And gun deaths are expected to exceed traffic fatalities in 2015. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/ ... es-by-2015
.


How many of those 32,351 firearm deaths were not self-inflicted. Like it or not, suicide is a completely different ballgame than being shot by someone else.

If the current EA was to prevent gun violence and mass shootings, I don't consider suicide to be included. This whole issue was "advertised" as a way to keep the general public safer from murderers.

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Re: No discussion on Obama's gun reforms?

Postby Spiritpaws » Sat Jan 09, 2016 11:08 am

Wouldn't it be nice if having a few more gun regulations in place could save a few kids or a few adults from killing themselves via firearms.

For me it is not just about murder and mass shootings. Why are we such an unhappy culture that so many of our citizens want to kill themselves?

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Re: No discussion on Obama's gun reforms?

Postby KathyK » Sat Jan 09, 2016 1:34 pm

myleetlepony wrote:
KathyK wrote:In 2014, there were 35,543 deaths by automobiles, and 32,351 by guns. That's doesn't qualify as MUCH more, in my book. And gun deaths are expected to exceed traffic fatalities in 2015. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/ ... es-by-2015
.


How many of those 32,351 firearm deaths were not self-inflicted. Like it or not, suicide is a completely different ballgame than being shot by someone else.

If the current EA was to prevent gun violence and mass shootings, I don't consider suicide to be included. This whole issue was "advertised" as a way to keep the general public safer from murderers.

Suicide most certainly should be included.
A gun in the home increases the risk of suicide by three times
82% of teen firearm suicides involve a family member’s gun

http://www.bradycampaign.org/press-room ... e-and-guns

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Re: No discussion on Obama's gun reforms?

Postby Code3 » Sat Jan 09, 2016 3:50 pm

WheresMyWhite wrote:
Code3 wrote:Good question. Why ARE people running with their hair on fire thinking all their guns will be confiscated? By whom, is my question.


Today, would/could guns be confiscated, no. Tomorrow (figuratively) if things like registration and maintaining information in database is maintained and increased, then yes, I think guns could be confiscated... by the feds or by local at the direction of the feds. IMO, it *could* happen in the future. I don't want to see the future get here.

Can you tell me specifically what has been said or done that indicates this is the intent? Serious question.

In my state we are among the lowest staffed in the country for LE. The local LE doesn't have the staffing to get your weapons (there have been times in the past ten years that we couldn't staff a deputy in the county 24/7 because of budget, and if you get burglarized just report it over the phone). The feds don't have the staffing. Even if they directed local LE to do it, it just won't happen. Potentially every seizure would have to involve SWAT because on my road alone there are people who would meet that contingent with resistance and there are only 25 houses on my road. State Police? How many times have I heard State Police dispatchers ask a person in a rural area calling in suspicious conditions if they have a weapon and, if they do (which most do) to get it out? Once the cops are there, the complainant is asked to put it away. But it is about an hour and a half drive from one side of the county to the other, and you've got one or two LE working, well, you see where that is going.

Logistically, I don't see cops seizing guns. Just not possible.

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Re: No discussion on Obama's gun reforms?

Postby myleetlepony » Sat Jan 09, 2016 4:01 pm

So does the figure above about auto deaths include suicide by car, too?

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Re: No discussion on Obama's gun reforms?

Postby KathyK » Sat Jan 09, 2016 6:14 pm

It seems that death means very little to you. I hope it never happens, but it would probably take someone you love being shot and killed to make you understand the destruction and devastation caused by easy access to guns in this country.

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Re: No discussion on Obama's gun reforms?

Postby myleetlepony » Sat Jan 09, 2016 8:24 pm

That's a very large assumption you are making there...nice redirect via attack, though.

However the anti-gunners have all been about "I don't feel safe! Take away the guns!!!!!" That's where I'm focusing. No one can stop someone truly intent on suicide. Work a few suicide calls and you'll realize that. If someone truly intent on ending their own suffering does not have access to a gun, in many (not all) cases, they will find another way.

So if the numbers you compared earlier do not include suicide by vehicle (singular death) but do include suicide by gun, then they are not a fair comparison.

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Re: No discussion on Obama's gun reforms?

Postby WheresMyWhite » Sun Jan 10, 2016 2:35 am

Code3,

I noticed you said that logistically you don't see cops seizing guns, not that they wouldn't.

You are right, confiscation of all guns would not be an easy task. But, I would not be surprised if some owners voluntarily turned them in. As well, depending on the penalty imposed for continuing to possess a weapon after they are on some type of "seizure list", more owners may turn them in rather than face the penalty of continued ownership/possession. A database of registered guns and their owners is, IMO, a first step toward confiscation. Could/would a second step ever happen? I don't know but I also am not sure I want to find out either...

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Re: No discussion on Obama's gun reforms?

Postby Code3 » Sun Jan 10, 2016 5:05 am

Thanks you for answering, WMW. To be honest there are cops who have said they wouldn't. I don't think it will come to that and I really hope we don't find out,

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Re: No discussion on Obama's gun reforms?

Postby Spiritpaws » Sun Jan 10, 2016 11:09 am

Maybe we have this backwards...maybe we need to throw all gun laws out the window. Require, make it mandatory, that every person over the age of 18 must posses a firearm. We can go shopping with our firearm, take it to church, take it out for dinner. And better yet, if someone pisses us off, we can shoot them and end an argument very quickly.

Why limit firearms? Every household could have a bazooka, government issued-grenades. Bullet-proof vests could become the latest fashion statement.

Gun advocates are right: why are we trying to restrict gun ownership when we are the country that exports the most weapons in the world?

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Re: No discussion on Obama's gun reforms?

Postby WheresMyWhite » Sun Jan 10, 2016 4:28 pm

Code3 wrote:Thanks you for answering, WMW. To be honest there are cops who have said they wouldn't. I don't think it will come to that and I really hope we don't find out,


And thank you for an honest response.

I personally don't trust the government, regardless of the party in office or in power in congress but that is just me.

Do I think a confiscation would happen today, no. Tomorrow, no. Next week, probably not, in the future, I could easily see it happening despite the claims of many pro-control who have stated they aren't for confiscation.

What happens when the next "better" round of gun control laws continue to prove to be ineffective in *this* country. I personally don't care how well they worked someplace else. All those other places are not the US, just as we are not those other places... And for those who say we need to "try", well confiscation or very strict ownership is on the list, isn't it?

Today it is illegal to sell high capacity handgun magazines in Colorado to another Colorado resident. If someone has a high capacity handgun, it becomes fairly worthless to sell in-state due to the magazine restriction. This potentially drives people to online sources (via FFL) to sell to people in other states. The baddies will continue to sell in-state as they don't obey laws anyway.

To me, it is the nibbling away that scares me...

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Re: No discussion on Obama's gun reforms?

Postby stella » Sun Jan 10, 2016 5:19 pm

This is a pretty good article regarding what it's like to be the victim of gun violence.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/postever ... &tid=ss_fb

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Re: No discussion on Obama's gun reforms?

Postby Saddlebum » Thu Jan 14, 2016 4:51 pm

I thought gun control revision is only about closing the loop holes with respect to gun shows, used gun sales via hmm, sorry, can't thing of he word but like a swap meet. My understanding is anyone can show up at one of these and purchase any gun they choose without a background check.

Closing that loop hole and requiring any and all sales of guns to require a thorough background check into criminal and mental health requirements to transfer ownership of a gun. Weather from person to person or gun shop owner to a person.

This makes sense to me but I am sure there are complications, hehehehe to this argument.

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Re: No discussion on Obama's gun reforms?

Postby WheresMyWhite » Thu Jan 14, 2016 8:00 pm

Saddlebum wrote:My understanding is anyone can show up at one of these and purchase any gun they choose without a background check.


This would, of course, depend on the state in which you live with respect to current day requirements for sales...

Saddlebum wrote: that loop hole and requiring any and all sales of guns to require a thorough background check into criminal and mental health requirements to transfer ownership of a gun.


Mental health requirements? Other than Form 4473 which does ask about mental health, what background requirements are you thinking of that will probe the mental health of someone desiring to purchase firearm?

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Re: No discussion on Obama's gun reforms?

Postby boots-aregard » Fri Jan 15, 2016 12:14 am

WheresMyWhite wrote:
Code3 wrote:Good question. Why ARE people running with their hair on fire thinking all their guns will be confiscated? By whom, is my question.


Today, would/could guns be confiscated, no. Tomorrow (figuratively) if things like registration and maintaining information in database is maintained and increased, then yes, I think guns could be confiscated... by the feds or by local at the direction of the feds. IMO, it *could* happen in the future. I don't want to see the future get here.


The "threat" could be mitigated by registering owners rather than registering guns. The fact that a person is allowed to own a gun and has shown himself to be trained and not a felon doesn't necessarily mean that he has one. So the putative future confiscators could spin a lot of their wheels with no real ability to confiscate.

However, that doesn't help at all with tracking of stolen weapons, inappropriate gifting, and guns that make their way somehow into the hands of bad guys.

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Re: No discussion on Obama's gun reforms?

Postby myleetlepony » Fri Jan 15, 2016 4:05 am

Saddlebum wrote:I thought gun control revision is only about closing the loop holes with respect to gun shows, used gun sales via hmm, sorry, can't thing of he word but like a swap meet. My understanding is anyone can show up at one of these and purchase any gun they choose without a background check.

Closing that loop hole and requiring any and all sales of guns to require a thorough background check into criminal and mental health requirements to transfer ownership of a gun. Weather from person to person or gun shop owner to a person.

This makes sense to me but I am sure there are complications, hehehehe to this argument.


Well, that's where my point comes in about the EA being kinda useless. Gun shows, in the states that they are legal, can still do this IF you aren't "in the business of selling guns". So instead of a store or someone who regularly sells guns renting a booth, you get the guy who has one or two to sell or a few people looking to sell one or two getting together to rent a booth. Big flippin' whoop.
It also doesn't affect private sales if the seller doesn't regularly sell guns. (Again the caveat that some states allow this, and some states do require any transactions go through an FFL for a background check)

I don't know, maybe one has to have gone through gun sales to see how pointless his wording on this is. My ex was a ATF licensed gun dealer so I do try to keep in mind it's not something everyone understands. I do remember, however, that he was meticulous on keeping sale files, since the ATF could come in at any time to audit or pull a specific transfer.

I still say make ALL gun transfers, gift or sale, go through an FFL with a 4473. So what if there's a $50.00 transfer fee?? Heck, cap it at $25.00. It puts the new owner in front of a licensed person who is required to report anything questionable. Give the FFL dealers more training, too.

But, Obama couldn't make that one simple move...

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Re: No discussion on Obama's gun reforms?

Postby Figgy » Fri Feb 05, 2016 6:30 am

we had the buy back scheme here and thousands of guns were handed in, but honestly, unless you are done for breaking laws (domestic violence, assault, theft, murder etc) or you are declared incompetent (dementia, mental incapacity) the police aren't going to take your gun away from you.

The police want to take the guns from the baddies, because no one wants the baddies shooting at their neighbours, the police and innocent bystanders. Sane law abiding people who have those guns for legitimate sporting or work purposes are safe.

And, if the police do seize guns, they write to the gun owner and give them the right of appeal. So, if you are unfairly accused, innocent - you can get your gun back. If the gun owner dies and the gun is of 'historical' or 'sentimental' value (ie, I know farmers with old war guns that their grandfathers own) then family members can apply for a gun licence and work a way of owning that gun in a safe manner (ie, keeping it in a safe place, having a licence, ensuring that the public aren't at risk from the gun).

As much as our conservative politicians have gone police crazy of late (its always the conservative politicians who are bananas on 'strengthening' law enforcement and undoing privacy protections), our police are too busy running around trying to catch the crazy drug addicts, violent criminals and robbers to be bothered kicking down the doors of the law abiding citizens of a night time.


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