Dressage at Devon observations.

[Dresseur]

I just spent an intense 4 days grooming for my coach at Dressage at Devon. She shows lean and mean, no frills, so we shared a lot of the workload. But, keeping a gray clean is a minor miracle, especially in the CDI barns - they're a hot mess! She showed PSG, I-1 and then qualified for the I-1 freestyle and as the horse is green at this level (7 years old, the youngest competing - she had only done 3 or 4 I-1 tests earlier this year), and this is her first huge atmosphere show, the focus was on keeping the princess happy. That meant not pushing for extra brilliance. She laid down solid tests, looked like she belonged, and broke into the top 10 in the freestyle, which is more than we could have asked! And, the horse stayed happy and relaxed - which given the rain and the commotion is fantastic. A lot of more seasoned horses were pretty undone.

So, that brings me to what I saw, some of it was surprising, some of it made me sad, and some of it made me happy.
The halo judging.... ABSOLUTELY exists. I saw BNT and BNR blow movement after movement and end up with 70's. As in whole lines of tempis blown, halts blown, movements that never developed. How does one get 7's on 2 tempis when no 2 tempis were shown? And the pirouettes?! Oh my, oh my... very, very few horses were doing proper pirouettes. Most were spinning, or stepping out and were actually tiny voltes, or doing small levades and turning on the planted foot - not pirouettes at all... but yet 7's and 8's. I saw 2 freestyles that didn't meet requirements for the level- not enough shoulder in shown and one where the horse didn't do a single 2 tempi - but yet 70+%. And the riding! The riding was by and large subpar at the PSG and above level in my opinion. Chair seats, completely loose positions, hands banging on the horse's mouth and lots and lots of tension in the horses. That being said, I didn't see a single rider warming up deep or overly round - which was nice to see. What I did see was a lot of horses propped up in absolute elevation up front. And, most riders wore helmets.

The thing that made me the saddest was the Temple Lippizans. It was an absolute parody of dressage when you watched it. And, the fact that they are purposely making inferences that they are tied to the SRS is not kosher IMO. The quality of the work was awful - you would think that the horses would at least have clean changes or true pirouettes. Not the case, the the horses were so underpowered. Sure, some did levade and pesade and some did the capriole and courbette, but overall the quality was just poor and 3 out of the 4 horses were constantly sticking their tongues out. And, of the horses doing the airs - they were TIRED by the end - day after day doing the demonstrations - and it made me disappointed that they were holding this up as the pinnacle of dressage.

So, lots to see, lots of good shopping, it was eye opening on a few levels and I'm so glad I got to be the groom for the princess

[musical comedy]

Thanks for the editorial. I've been thinking of writing one too and posting it, just hoping to feel better if I vent. Probably I fall into the sour grapes camp, even though I don't show anymore.

In a nutshell, I just don't 'get' showing anymore. If and when I ever write my piece, I'll try to explain why.

Just a comment though about the absolute elevation. I don't watch much dressage anymore, but I think you have to consider that the warmbloods won't be able to sit like the Pre and Luisitano.

[Dresseur]

Hmm. I agree that PRE's and Lusitano's are inherently able to sit. However, with all of these "purpose bred" warmbloods, they should also have the ability to sit, especially if they are making it up to PSG, I-1 and GP. Unless we're saying that the purpose breeding is only about the flinging front legs But, I saw a few that sat well despite their riders. The horse one of the riders had at GP comes to mind... nice, nice horse... Good God, the rider. What I have a hard time stomaching is the horses that COULDN'T sit because they were being held and blocked up front so that the hind operated independently of the front.

The other thing that I forgot to mention, is that in the I-1 and PSG - these are horses that should be within a few years of GP (give or take). What I saw a lot of was career small tour horses - the movement that was rewarded was the bigger, looser movement that you would find at 2nd and 3rd level - anything showing a modicum of proper collection ended up lower than the looser movers. Then, you watch the GP horses and suddenly everything was tight, tight, tight.

And, definitely not sour grapes from me, before anyone asks. We are incredibly proud of Maya and what she accomplished.

[Josette]

I last attended Devon a few years ago and was very disappointed. I saw some of what Dresseur described although that week had decent weather. I've never been inspired to return and watch it again....

[musical comedy]

But, I saw a few that sat well despite their riders. The horse one of the riders had at GP comes to mind... nice, nice horse... Good God, the rider.

This might be where you and I will be in disagreement. You already know that I think your position is pretty awesome. That said, I am one that doesn't fault position IF the horse is performing well and IF those position faults are not causing the horse a problem. I guess even that statement would be open for different opinion. I suppose I am sensitive to this issue, because my position is faulty, yet I believe I have the feel and timing that results in better performance than a lot of riders that aren't as capable.

[Dresseur]

It's kind of sad in some ways in that a lot of the prestige feels gone. With the addition of the I-1 A and B classes and all the splitting of classes, almost no one was in the GP (although, that could also have been because of Rio). It felt like just another horse show. But, even the awards ceremonies were odd - they split the awards 4-6th came in and were barely acknowledged and then the 1-3rd were brought in for the hoopla. I felt bad for the 4-6th place finishers, that is a huge deal for them and it was so glossed over. Felt REALLY bad for Julio Mendoza who made it into the I-1 freestyle with us and had to scratch because his horse scratched it's cornea in the CDI stabling. That stabling was just BAD. Boards falling down, nails out etc. They could cordon off those newer barns no problem to get the horses into better accommodations.

[Dresseur]

MC- I think that horses can go well even with faulty positions IF the timing and feel are there. My guess is that in your case it absolutely is. I also think that some horses are so well trained that they will perform the movements no matter what. I DO NOT think that you have to be perfect in position to ride or even to ride upper level movements - some of this stuff is just practice so that you can get the feel and timing down. I pm'd you the name of the rider that really exemplifies (IMO) what I mean. There were audible gasps and murmurs from many people as they watched him go.

[musical comedy]

I also think that some horses are so well trained that they will perform the movements no matter what.

Boy do I agree on that. I won't say that it's even the training, but just they are so willing to try. A friend of mine recently send me a video of her ride to assess as she got a bad score and knew she deserved it. Her horse was in that absolute elevation and was really tight in the neck evening dropping the tongue out a couple times. The horse, still continued to perform and his gaits are beautiful. (He was in the 6 figures). A horse like mine that is not a hot-off-the-leg type naturally, would never stand for too-tight reins. I think a lot of these great and foward movers tolerate a lot of hand riding.

[kande50]

By "absolute elevation" do you mean when the neck is up but the withers aren't?

I don't think it's all that difficult to put horses against the bit. Just start when they're young and aren't yet shut down, lunge with side reins and drive them forward whenever they come off the bit, and they soon learn that they need to stay against the bit. Then if you ride them the same way they find out that the only place to be is against the bit, because if they back off it they will be corrected.

[Dresseur]

Kande, this is a good description of absolute elevation.
http://www.sustainabledressage.net/coll ... p#relative

It has to do with the neck being raised without the lowering of the croup and subsequent weight bearing of the hind. Basically, the outline is the short, high neck and hollow back with trailing hocks.

[Flight]

Great, I was hoping you'd do a bit of a report I tried to watch a bit of the live streaming, but was at work so couldn't watch much.

I find it so disappointing that judging is biased. There was that interesting convo on COTH about a comment made by a judge too. I always hope that it's about good training, but it's not sounding like much is changing.

[Dresseur]

Yes, the bias was very evident. But, it was two-fold - and mainly had to do with who the riders were. For the less BNT and BNR, I will say that I was happy to see the more relaxed rides get rewarded. Friesians seem to do okay because they do have a lot of flash and suspension. Also, Mary Alice Malone, Julio Mendoza (relatively big name in this area), and a few other big breeders in this area are into the Frisians, which helps their case. The PRE's tend not to have the same suspension, so even if you happen to have one that does have the shoulder freedom, IMO they tend to be knocked even if the work is very correct. What will be interesting is to see if the PRE's WILL start to be rewarded in the next few years since Mary Alice Malone and Mo Swanson both bought PRE's... Andalusians if I'm not mistaken. And, Mary Alice competes - so that will be a little bit of "proof's in the pudding" if PRE's suddenly become du jour. Or, I could be wrong.

Again, I just go back to the directives of the tests, and the actual movements. I'm not talking about quality even - BNR and BNT were getting big scores on MOVEMENTS that didn't happen whereas lesser known riders were getting skewered. So, I think, if the judges didn't see that, what else are they seeing or not seeing. How on earth can that be glossed over? And again, not even talking about the rider and horse that I groomed for. She held her own and we know what the faults are, and because it was her first crazy atmosphere show, the priority was having a correct, calm ride even if it wasn't brilliant. So, no sour grapes

[kande50]

Kande, this is a good description of absolute elevation.

Thanks. That's how I understood it, too.

I think that as competitors become aware of the politics of showing they either accept it as the way it is and function as best they can in the system, or they recognize it as a lost cause and get out.

I can't imagine what must be going through competitors' minds when they earn good scores for poor work? Maybe they feel that they bought and paid for those scores, so they earned them?

[Chisamba]

. I also think that some horses are so well trained that they will perform the movements no matter what..

Not true. Individual movements perhaps, a whole test with all the preparation and timing. NO.

Reiner Klimke was a pretty good example of a less exemplary position producing a very capable ride / horse.

Otoh people can look super and sit beautifully and have neither riding tact nor be effective.

When I go to places like Devon i suggest to my critical pupils that it is easy to see the mistakes. It takes more perceptive looking to see why people succeed despite the mistakes. And that is what you learn from. Learn how to succeed, not how to criticise, one has far more dynamic impact on your self than the other.

I used to be a very crirical observer. Never learned a thing worth knowing. Now i go with the express purpose of learning something useful. My perspective really opened.

[Dresseur]

. I also think that some horses are so well trained that they will perform the movements no matter what..

Not true. Individual movements perhaps, a whole test with all the preparation and timing. NO.

Reiner Klimke was a pretty good example of a less exemplary position producing a very capable ride / horse.

Otoh people can look super and sit beautifully and have neither riding tact nor be effective.

I agree with the above - but the riders that I'm specifically talking about did not have good prep or timing. The transitions were late or non-existent, movements were extremely slow or abrupt to develop etc. The horses did individual movements, but there was no flow to it and very obviously no prep. And, for the record, I agree that there are beautifully posed people who can't get much out of a horse. I don't find much to criticize in Klimke's position, and he was incredibly quiet and incredibly tactful.

My observations were just that - observations from my POV. And from what I saw, people succeeded despite rearing, sort of halting at x and then running backward, continued disobedience (just under 20 sec) and blowing several movements - even several coefficient movements. Which leads me to believe that the baseline scores started very high for that rider/horse combo. Why that is, who knows... I have guesses, and I'm not upset by it. It's part of showing at that level. We look at the scores that our particular horse got and are very happy with them.

[musical comedy]

. I also think that some horses are so well trained that they will perform the movements no matter what..

Not true. Individual movements perhaps, a whole test with all the preparation and timing. NO.

Reiner Klimke was a pretty good example of a less exemplary position producing a very capable ride / horse.

Otoh people can look super and sit beautifully and have neither riding tact nor be effective.

When I go to places like Devon i suggest to my critical pupils that it is easy to see the mistakes. It takes more perceptive looking to see why people succeed despite the mistakes. And that is what you learn from. Learn how to succeed, not how to criticise, one has far more dynamic impact on your self than the other.
I used to be a very crirical observer. Never learned a thing worth knowing. Now i go with the express purpose of learning something useful. My perspective really opened.

I agree with this excellent post, even though it's going to look like I'm contradicting myself. I'm referring to horses performing movements 'no matter what'. I DO think horses can 'satisfactorily' peform the movements, including the whole test, in spite of rider blunders. I have had a few (just a few) decent tests where my horse's quality boosted my marks even though I rode not so well.

I repeat that I agree about how one looks not necessarily associated with being effective. While I'm at it, I want to comment on Chisamba's previous statement about riding light, and even in a tad forward position. I agree with this and it has made a notable improvement in my horse's way of going. A while back, Flight had a photo of her young horse where she was a little forward, and the group commented on it as a fault (my word). I thought it looked lovely. Especially young horses should be ridden with a forward seat and even half seat in canter. That's how it used to be in my day. (Sorry for rambling and going off course).

[musical comedy]

I agree with the above - but the riders that I'm specifically talking about did not have good prep or timing. The transitions were late or non-existent, movements were extremely slow or abrupt to develop etc. The horses did individual movements, but there was no flow to it and very obviously no prep. And, for the record, I agree that there are beautifully posed people who can't get much out of a horse. I don't find much to criticize in Klimke's position, and he was incredibly quiet and incredibly tactful.

My observations were just that - observations from my POV. And from what I saw, people succeeded despite rearing, sort of halting at x and then running backward, continued disobedience (just under 20 sec) and blowing several movements - even several coefficient movements. Which leads me to believe that the baseline scores started very high for that rider/horse combo. Why that is, who knows... I have guesses, and I'm not upset by it. It's part of showing at that level. We look at the scores that our particular horse got and are very happy with them.

My bolding. Actually, for a long time, I've thought about generating a topic about dressage scoring. I never did because the way they do it is never going to change, at least not in my lifetime.

The fact is that for many judges, the 'flow/harmony' of the test doesn't have much negative effective, especially for those riding with a halo. What I don't like about dressage scoring is the way individual movements can boost or lower (works both ways) the overall score. I don't think it's right to have a pair get a 4 on one movement and then an 8 on another and have that balance out to a 6.

[kande50]

The fact is that for many judges, the 'flow/harmony' of the test doesn't have much negative effective, especially for those riding with a halo. What I don't like about dressage scoring is the way individual movements can boost or lower (works both ways) the overall score. I don't think it's right to have a pair get a 4 on one movement and then an 8 on another and have that balance out to a 6.

What do you (anyone) think might be a better way to do it?

Personally, I'd want harmony and invisible aids to carry more weight, for the sake of the horses, but since those who are still judging competitive dressage don't seem to think that's important I doubt there's going to be a big turnaround in that department any time soon.

[Dresseur]

I don't mind having very good scores for good movements and transitions and very bad scores for bad movements. What I object to are blown movements still getting 7's. That should be a 1 or a 2. For some pairs, it was. For others - mainly BNT and BNR, it wasn't.

And, I do wish that harmony and purity of the gaits would have more impact on the score.

[Sue B]

I just think that dressage has gone the way of ice skating and leave it at that. Judges are always going to give leeway to those they know because they see the ride through the lens of personal experience. Jane Doe here is seen without colored lenses and, if showing as an amateur, is assumed to be incompetent. That's just the way of human nature, nothing overtly nefarious. I am sure 99% of the bnj's vehemently deny any bias and that's because it is inherent not purposeful.

For real kicks, try showing in Idaho, where scores are automatically dropped 5-10pts because, clearly, there can be no decent horses or riders in our great state. I cannot tell you the number of time bnt's have expressed shock when they come to our state for a clinic and discover we aren't all riding reining horses. I of course, ride TB's, but there are some really wonderful warmbloods bred, born, and trained right here in little ol' Idaho. There are also some lovely up and coming riders/trainers from this state whose names aren't Debbie MacDonald. In my life, I have been a part time trainer, a some time successful competitor, a show manager, an occasional instructor, and a member of our GMO since 1975! I do this dressage stuff because I love the training process and I love horses, and once upon a time, I loved the camaraderie of the dressage showing world. But dressage grew up; it is no longer a sport where backyard enthusiasts all over the country can compete with "the big boys/girls" in the dressage centers of the country. No longer a sport where a pony like Seldom Seen has a shot at being an international level competitor or a rider like Hilda Gurney can drop in on a big rangy TB and go to the Olympics. That's okay though, enjoy the process, and like Chisamba said, learn from the good parts you see even while lamenting the rest. Oh...and join your local GMO where you can fight to make a difference!

Sorry for the ramble. It's early here and I have another long, arduous day at work staring me in the face. Wishing I was riding instead.

[demi]

Interesting thread. I love that Dresseur and company were happy with Maya and to me, that's a big reason for showing. I showed a little bit many years ago and I loved the way it affected my relationship with my horse. We had fun together. My little grey Arab came to expect that we would stop at McDonald's on the way home for a hot apple pie!

[Dresseur]

yes, her scores held pretty steady and because she is SO green to the level -to do everything quietly and happily with zero meltdowns, AND to qualify for the I-1 MFS?! What a good girl. And her owner is super - no pressure to perform. Everything was about making sure that she was happy and willing. So, now she will work towards GP with the aim towards GP either at the very end of next year, but more than likely in 2 years. I think that she'll really, really shine at GP.

[Chisamba]

Its funny, because i LOVE that you can blow one move and exvel at another. It is the thing i like about dressage.

If a world existed where judges could at every show not know a single horse rider combination, it would be easier to be fair. Its not possible so preconceived notion will always play a part. I had a tense and difficult but superbly talented mare. I was never sure who would be there for me to ride on a morning, talented fabulous, or hell on wheels. While qualifying for regionals i showed miss fabulous under one judge, and miss hell on wheels under another. At regionals it was a three judge system. One who saw me on ms fab, one who saw me on miss hell and one unbiased. My scores were ten points apart. The miss hell judge scored everything lower. Everything. She was unable to view the ride without bias.

I was upset because Rose did her best that day and one wants to be fairly scored on the ride on the day. But looking at photos, if l looked for the tension i could see it as positive tension or negative tension .

So i suppose it was as fair as it could be.

[Chisamba]

PS i bet you if most people saw the video of Klimke and Ahlerich and did not know who they were, they would say the horse was running, never showed collection, had a very average passage, and the rider was in a crotch seat with his heels up and busy hands. ( talking about halo effect)

[Flight]

It's interesting how it's changed, and the horses have changed over time. When I first watched a video of Klimke and Ahlerich I was a little underwhelmed, but as I've learned more and am looking for my riding to be light and harmonious, I certainly appreciated it a lot more.

Musical Comedy - thanks, and I feel I agree because I"m no lightweight and when my horses were younger (I've started both of mine) they definitely lacked muscle and it just didn't feel right sitting deeply on them until they were older. I know it was taught to sit light/half seat on youngsters, maybe a lot of well bred dressage youngsters have more muscle these days??
Also, I kind of see your point about the scoring. However, I don't mind it (thinking back to my horse being silly at the last comp!) because you screw up a movement, or not be capable of a certain movement, and still do ok overall. I've not thought of that as a bad thing before.

Sorry to get off topic Dresseur! What I do like is your USEF network on demand videos. I often watch dressage (ironically to help me go to sleep!) and there are amateur classes from the lower levels too, so I can watch lots of different riders and horses that are around my level, not just the FEI levels. While it's easy to be critical, everyone is trying their best.