Reins and contact

[Chisamba]

I prefer the pic of Emi over that of willow.

To me in that moment Willow is Crest high, behind the vertical, closing her throat latch and there is a concave from the wither under the saddle to croup. The hind leg is up and down, not stepping under the midpoint.

To me Emi is not reaching into the contact and is posed, but her posture is not hollow nor closed.

In the auction photo MC posted of the horse in front of the leg, the horse is poll high, nose out, open throat latch, all those things we claim to strive for, but..... Clearly concave from wither to croup. It's a young horse, I am sure, but demonstrates in that moment how riding a horse too high and out will lose the back

Now I am critical of my own photos and video, so this is not an intended criticism of rider, training nor horse, but what I would seek to improve if it were a picture of me on my horse.

I both cases a better leg to bit contact would. More effectively cooperate to improve in willows case impulsion and in Emis case, straightness.

I realize we see things differently, so just sharing my perspective.

I too have noticed less comments from judges saying rounder, and more criticism of down and btv.

[Chisamba]

I ride with lighter contact now than in my prime. Severe arthritis in my hands. I think my horses find it more difficult to maintain engagement and impulsion with the lighter contact.

Yes I do in hand work. Not the French style, but as used by the SRS, and the 'berlin' school. At least the elderly German dame who taught me called them that.

They are not the same as those Galop, and I assume Mark uses.

[galopp]

Since my primary work in hand was german (and for starting horses), so I think we are very close. For sure it highlighted mobility of the jaw, an upright posture in which the horse sought the hand, and remained ifV. And it required in depth knowledge of the effects of the bits, the 8 rein holds, and nuanced actions. For me the more french style serves for retraining (of which there would be little need if horses were not precipitously flexed/compressed/etc in the first place as is too often seen. But there is only nuanced differences otherwise imho. If horses are started methodically with a clear pedagogy for training, then flexion comes over time from a steady balance/etc.

[piedmontfields]

Maybe someone can help me remember this saying I learned (from JJ Tate and maybe it was originally from Charles de Kunffy?):

The seat clarifies.
The legs energize.
The reins verify. (I think of verifying that I can feel the hinds in my hands.)

[Dresseur]

Khall, thank you for that clarification. I admit that I was thinking it was a bit more like I've seen and experienced people who follow PK's methods do. I've had people teach me those methods and the responses that they were looking for where what I described, not what you are describing. So, again, thank you for that thoughtful clarification.

[piedmontfields]

I'm not going to say what this does or does not mean, but it seems like this video of Paul Belasik using yarn to attach his reins to the bits might be interesting to view in relation to this thread:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgwbMDO ... e=youtu.be

p.s. I have never done this, but I have ridden Emi with a light theraband instead of reins as part of my efforts to figure out what contact she can live with.

[Dresseur]

Yes, there are other things that I can quibble with in terms of the quality of the movements (the piri's spin and the piaffe ropewalks) but I also have the benefit of knowing this horse very well and knowing where her weaknesses are. She's actually built rather downhill, which makes it a bit harder for her. He is riding her with a bit longer beck and less definite contact than he usually does on her in this video, but this is how light all of his and Andrea's horses are in the hand, regardless of rein length, whereas, I find quite a few people assume that they must be heavy in the hand based on the rein length and neck shape.

[musical comedy]

Here are some things that I think can affect the lightness or heaviness of contact:

1) The breed of the horse
2) The size of the horse, including the horse's head
3) The degree of hind end power the horse possesses
4) The stage of training. The younger the horse, likely heavier as not yet able to carry

Always there are exceptions, and those interested in debates will find them. Anyone that has ridden a lot of horses of different sizes, stages of training, and ability would probably agree on the above.

[Ponichiwa]

Had this thread in my mind when I was out riding yesterday.

My default position is with elbows over hips. Pushing my elbows out in front of me forces me to ride more with my core and less with my hands, which is all good news, except that the moment I stop thinking about it I fall back into more energy-efficient postures. Such is life, huh?

My pony is light in the bridle all the time, and it's not because I'm a fantastic trainer (I'm not). It's because of her conformation and personality. She doesn't take a lot of leg and she doesn't take a lot of rein but she is hard to honestly connect to both.

[Chisamba]

I'm not going to say what this does or does not mean, but it seems like this video of Paul Belasik using yarn to attach his reins to the bits might be interesting to view in relation to this thread:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgwbMDO ... e=youtu.be

p.s. I have never done this, but I have ridden Emi with a light theraband instead of reins as part of my efforts to figure out what contact she can live with.

I have done this, the yarn takes quite a lot of weight, by the way, but it does not tolerate abruptness. BY which i mean that the hands cannot jerk or bounce, you have to really focus on a smooth and kind feeling in the hand, soft fingers closed hand, elastic elbow. The most often my rein broke was when the horse tried to root the rein away in the walk, in which my hand was just not quick enough and smooth enough to follow the contact consistently

[piedmontfields]

I have done this, the yarn takes quite a lot of weight, by the way, but it does not tolerate abruptness. BY which i mean that the hands cannot jerk or bounce, you have to really focus on a smooth and kind feeling in the hand, soft fingers closed hand, elastic elbow.

Makes sense. That is what I liked about the theraband experiment---it made it extra obvious to me when I was being inconsistent and really helped me find connection that was soft but also steady.

She doesn't take a lot of leg and she doesn't take a lot of rein but she is hard to honestly connect to both.

Ponichiwa, Emi is much like this. It is tricky.

[khall]

I find riding with one hand is my best test for how correct the horse is. I liked what Eobert Dover was saying in his lesson at Gladstone the seat is 80% of riding. I would definitely agree with that.

[demi]

I am thinking a lot about reins (specifically length) and contact since Emma bucked me off. She tried several times to buck at canter last fall when I was riding with short reins/hands forward. I was able to pull her up after only a couple bucks each time. But I didn't like the connection I was getting, or more accurately, wasn't getting, with short reins/hands forward. I felt that I needed a longer rein, but didn't feel that I could trust her. So i spent the winter working her on a longe line with sidereins almost on the buckle. In the spring I started riding her again she gave me a wonderful connection on the longer rein. And I felt that I could trust her. When I tested the trust by asking for more connection (through a trot lengthening) she blew up.

So now I have to rethink the whole rein/contact issue. Here is me on two different horses riding both ways. Short reins/ hands forward, and long reins/elbows at my side.Obviously i am an amateur, but I think I have a working understanding of both ways. I need to refine my understanding. Critique away if you like. Remember I am too old to risk getting bucked off again! I need to do this in a safe way. Peidmont's theraband experiment got my interest and I may try it, however, Emma is not a forgiving soul and i'm not sure if I could get away with it.

At any rate, the pics might add to this discussion...



[img]https://scontent-dft4-3.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/18671750_291163427976140_873849620118945458_o.jpg?oh=a09701ebb0d93c14412e71768cf53f3d&oe=599F7B3A[/im[/img]g]

[musical comedy]

Demi, I don't think those two photos present good examples for a discussion about short/long reins and contact. Every person on the forum is going to like the second photos and tell you that's how your reins should be. This would be true on that horse at that time. The first photo your arms may be forward, but the contact is still too loose (horse not drawing/connected) and too low. I've already stated my thinking a few posts earlier.

[Chisamba]

If I am riding a bucker, I keep the muzzle at hip height except for stretches. If the horse is stretching level in trot, I bring it back up to canter.

If the horse will stay up on a longer rein, that's great. To me from your photo it's less about rein length, and more about balance

[musical comedy]

I find riding with one hand is my best test for how correct the horse is.

Riding with one hand is beneficial for several things. It is not a good test for connection though. Look at the western riders. They ride with one hand on loopy reins and can even make figures that way, riding off their seat and leg. Yet, what they achieve is not what most of us want in dressage riding.

[demi]

Thanks MC, but if my position on the second horse was "right for that horse at that time, couldn't the same be said about the first horse? And, if so, it might be a case for both positions being valid given the situation.

My understanding, which may be wrong, is that you feel the position on the first pic (my mare Rocky when she was a baby) is wrong for any situation. If that is what you think, then how would you change the first pic? Just take up the slack in the rein?

[demi]

I just now saw Chisambas response and I have to think about. Dogs need ou and DH wants breakfast. I'll get back

[musical comedy]

My understanding, which may be wrong, is that you feel the position on the first pic (my mare Rocky when she was a baby) is wrong for any situation. If that is what you think, then how would you change the first pic? Just take up the slack in the rein?

No, not at all. You did not give any kind of background on the pics. With the babies, especially those ridden by us ordinary aa's, there are going to be various contacts and rider positions. We do what we need to keep them as balanced as possible.

I started mine in just a halter. Now many years later, I would not do that. I would lunge, and then long line, them until they got to the stage where they understood contact and had sufficient balance to handle a rider.

[khall]

MC I totally disagree with you about one handed riding not being a good test of correct work. If it was not then why does the SRS do the exhibition of riding with one hand on the curb only? It shows the problems in connection and the horse's understanding of the rein aids and seat aids. Western riding is NOT what I am talking about. Riding with one hand in the Freestyle shows how well the horse is trained and properly on the aids. I like trying to ride lateral work one handed. It can be very illuminating.

[musical comedy]

MC I totally disagree with you about one handed riding not being a good test of correct work. If it was not then why does the SRS do the exhibition of riding with one hand on the curb only? It shows the problems in connection and the horse's understanding of the rein aids and seat aids. Western riding is NOT what I am talking about. Riding with one hand in the Freestyle shows how well the horse is trained and properly on the aids. I like trying to ride lateral work one handed. It can be very illuminating.

I said it is valuable. It is not a test of correct contact. I can ride with one hand. Am I correct then? You need to be more specific then, if you are going to rule out Western work and general hacking. You and I don't agree on what is a good contact. Does one of us have to be wrong?

Here is a video of a group riding one handed in a GM clinic. Is it displaying good contact or correct work?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKKyYb_XCrw

[Tsavo]

I think the example of western riding is proof that correct contact is probably harder to master than riding from the seat/legs. I agree with that. Correct contact is the only way to lengthen the neck without dumping the horse on the forehand or posing as far as I know.

[khall]

MC contact is a part of the correct work. Those involving the reins i.e. How the horse accepts the rein aids and contact. So I ride with one hand to see how my horse feels about the contact not so that I can do the figures or maneuvers with no contact as in Western riding. I have no idea how you ride never having seen a video of you so cannot make any determination of your riding. Again one handed riding is much like putting a drape in the rein or uberstreiken. It is a test of the training of the horse and a test of the effectiveness of the riders aids.

[Tsavo]

Again one handed riding is much like putting a drape in the rein or uberstreichen. It is a test of the training of the horse and a test of the effectiveness of the riders aids.

Uberstreichen tests self carriage or having the horse on the outside rein.

What does one handed on contact riding test? I would think the rider's posture mainly.

Here's a questrion... I. Werth was said to have uttered "inside leg to outside rein" 5,000 times at the World Cup clinics she did. Is it possible to do that with reins in one hand? Do people interpret this to mean more of something in the outside rein at all times?

[galopp]

For me I also train progressively which I was taught was lungeing (perhaps with a dumb jockey or etc), double lungeing, and basic bending on a large circle so as to have one step like another. Then when they are mounted they have a basic idea of what will be asked and how to manage a rider's weight.Then riding with two hands 'merely' up/open/actively forward with the introduction of simple rein effects (opening/leading in degrees, and bearing/neck rein again in degrees, and then joining them into a concert

Riding withe one hand serves a purpose, the rider cannot easily manipulate the horse into longitudinal flexion. The should keep the hind over the midline of the horse, thumb up. If turns are to be made at all it is ideally just turn the thumb in the direction of the turn (which effects the inside rein ever so slightly) along with stirrup stepping and position of the rider's legs. Neck reining with the reins in one hand however has a different effect because the horse is counter bending, it is a whisper of an action (touching the hair on the neck lightly).

Riding with the rein in one can can be a test of maintaining self carriage, but it depends upon the level of training of the horse. Just as giving the inside rein and maintaining the inside flexion (inside leg to outside rein) in uberstreichen is the first one, and giving both later proves the horse can be held by the seat alone (usually in piaffe/etc). But early on a test of correct contact is asking for mobilization of the jaw, and lightly giving the outside (and then both) reins and seeing if the horse will go forward/down/outward and follow the hand.

In GM's group some hold the reins horizontally, not correct. Some hold the reins with just a steady connection, thumb up, and the horses go steadily forward into a connection/bit acceptance (not on the bit, just just connected as they might be to a fence).

Is it possible to do ride inside leg to outside rein with reins in one hand? Yes, imho it is IF the rider is maintaining inside flexion (thumb turned inward as to allow for it).

[musical comedy]

But early on a test of correct contact is asking for mobilization of the jaw, and lightly giving the outside (and then both) reins and seeing if the horse will go forward/down/outward and follow the hand.

Not just an early on test, but a test later on as well. Not only test whether the horse can go fdo and follow the hand, but also can he smoothly come back up again, all while maintaining the rhythm and the connection. This is where the posers fail. They can't do a correct FDO because there is no connection to release. They can maybe get the horse trained to drop the neck down, the the contact will be lost. Too many horses go down, by not forward and down.

MC contact is a part of the correct work. Those involving the reins i.e. How the horse accepts the rein aids and contact. So I ride with one hand to see how my horse feels about the contact not so that I can do the figures or maneuvers with no contact as in Western riding. I have no idea how you ride never having seen a video of you so cannot make any determination of your riding. Again one handed riding is much like putting a drape in the rein or uberstreiken. It is a test of the training of the horse and a test of the effectiveness of the riders aids.

When I ride with one hand (which isn't that often) it is nothing like putting a drape in the rein or uberstreichen. I never ride with a drape in the rein. I hate it. If one of my reins gets loose, then I've lost the connection. Riding with one hand to me is more similar to riding with a bridge. I want my contact to feel elastic...elastic feeling like a rubber band.

[khall]

MC do you ever do uberstreiken? That is putting a drape in the rein to test the horse's self carriage.

Mobilizing the jaw and releasing the neck outward and downward is one of the cornerstones of the work that Mark taught. This mobilization and release is imperative to have so that the horse is not ridden in compression.

[Chisamba]

As I understand it, uberstriechen literally means stroking above. But in application it is stroking with the inside hand over the horses neck, it's simply a stroke, momentarily, usually to test inside leg to outside rein. It's German, nor French .

I do not understand how uberstriechen applies to riding with one hand, which is a test of acceptance of aids. Imho.

However riding with one hand could also have dozens of applications that have nothing to do with contact.

[Srhorselady]

I've been following this discussion with interest since I am among the many who constantly hear "shorten your reins" and I'm never sure how much to shorten. I have had, hopefully mostly in the past, a tendency to throw the reins away. Well today I had a lesson in "reins and contact" while on the trail. I was riding my now retired prix st George walk only trail horse who is an expert at sneaking more rein. We weren't quite on the buckle, I could still feel his mouth when we saw the dragon! It was a tractor half hidden in the trees down in the wash so all you saw was parts of the raised front end loader roaring around. Suddenly I had more loopy reins than I have ever had on this horse and I was reeling them in faster than I ever have. He was a good boy and we did some of the best shoulder in that we have done in the last two years! A few minutes later we proceeded on our ride and I noticed that, although my contact had the same weight as prior to the dragon incident, my reins were a lot shorter and my horse was a lot more responsive. BTW I have had lessons from two different trainers on a regular basis recently, one definitely of the French/Portugese style and the other more modern German, and both have advocated for bent elbows at the side and shoulder blades down in order to center my balance over the horse's center in a neutral position. Extending the arms forward engages muscles in the shoulder stiffening the shoulders so should only be done for a specific purpose then return to neutral. Also makes the rider's back less effective. Anyway I think I will work towards riding this horse with shorter reins in the future

[Chisamba]

BTW I have had lessons from two different trainers on a regular basis recently, one definitely of the French/Portugese style and the other more modern German, and both have advocated for bent elbows at the side and shoulder blades down in order to center my balance over the horse's center in a neutral position. Extending the arms forward engages muscles in the shoulder stiffening the shoulders so should only be done for a specific purpose then return to neutral. Also makes the rider's back less effective. Anyway I think I will work towards riding this horse with shorter reins in the future

I agree with this.

I also found it interesting that the dragon tractor gave you a good example of shorter reins without stronger contact great description, lol

[galopp]

Most of the time an instructor says "shorten your reins" it is because the student has not maintained a connection, and almost always the rider shortens the reins but lengthens the arms (takes the upper arm away from the trunk forward), and that changes nothing.

As far as uberstreichen, giving the reins to test self carriage, being strictly german it is in name only. There is the french equivalent (descente de main).

BTW I have had lessons from two different trainers on a regular basis recently, one definitely of the French/Portugese style and the other more modern German, and both have advocated for bent elbows at the side and shoulder blades down in order to center my balance over the horse's center in a neutral position. Extending the arms forward engages muscles in the shoulder stiffening the shoulders so should only be done for a specific purpose then return to neutral. Also makes the rider's back less effective. Anyway I think I will work towards riding this horse with shorter reins in the future

Agreed. W/o the upper arms hanging vertically the effectivity of the seat is lost.

[Tsavo]

Most of the time an instructor says "shorten your reins" it is because the student has not maintained a connection, and almost always the rider shortens the reins but lengthens the arms (takes the upper arm away from the trunk forward), and that changes nothing.

I think this is a touch too simplistic. You can't shorten the reins and keep your elbows at your sides if your horse isn't offering that shorter distance correctly as produced by leg aids. If you just take it without using leg aids then the horse is just going to shorten the neck and not elevate the withers. I suggest that is why students who have not learned to use leg/seat aids to elevate the withers and engage the horse's core muscles will almost always instantly push their arms forward because they feel the inelasticity and pull because the horse is not reacting correctly to the shorter reins. So instead of saying shorten the reins, I would tell a student to use leg aids until they feel the core engage and the withers come up which brings the neck to a position where the student FEELS the reins need to be shortened. Otherwise it will produce precipitous flexion.

This comment instantiates my overarching observation that much of dressage is too complex to reduce to 2-3 sentences.

[Dresseur]

I agree very much with what Tsavo said about not having enough behind to create the lift through the withers and the shorter base. In any case, Chisamba, I just went through (am still going through) struggles with arm position. First I tried to bring my hand lower, that tipped me forward, then I sat back, and my reins were too long - I couldn't seem to carry a lower hand and keep an appropriate rein length (note I'm saying appropriate, not short for the sake of being short). I know that I have a longer torso and longer arms than you, so for me, I tended to then have my elbows come behind my body, especially in the canter. What I have found, is that how successful I am at carrying my hands in an appropriate position, with arms/elbows in an appropriate position, with an appropriate rein length for the horse I'm riding has everything to do with whether or not the horse is a touch behind my leg and whether or not they are lifting the base of the neck and telescoping out rather than just shrinking in the neck. I'm not saying that this is what's happening in your case, but make sure that the horse is honestly in front of the leg and moving out to the bridle - drawing the bit away from you without collapsing down. The other thing that helped me a lot was work on my lats and shoulders - women tend to be weak in the upper body, and I was no exception. When I started concentrating on this area (I was already very strong in my core) I noticed big position changes that enabled me to use my seat and back better which helped me produce the right connection.

[Tsavo]

I agree that correct connection requires the ability to bring the shoulder blades back and down. This is one of the most counter-intuitive aspects of a sport that is rife with counter-intuitiveness.

When I started working out with a personal trainer at a gym, I told him I want to work on things that I need for riding... core strength, open hip angle, and being able to pull my shoulder blades back and down. So it is one strength issue and two limberness issues. It's been two years of this work and now I realize that what has held me back was not lack of talent or time or money. It was the simple ABILITY to do these three things. Once I was able to do these things, riding became easier and the path forward became much more obvious. Rather than have "bad habits" with my hands or arms, I felt the wrongness and which constantly drove me to find the correct connection because my shoulder blades were back and down. Now when I, say, open my fingers, I immediately feel the loss of the aids/energy circle and my BODY closes my hand for me. I would not say I am correcting it... my body is because it feels the loss of the connection. It literally feels like my hand closes by itself before I think about it. That feedback that draws away from the incorrect and drives towards the correct will NEVER happen if you don't have your shoulder blades back and down. With an incorrect shoulder girdle, you will be driven towards INCORRECT hands/arms which is why people can't break bad habits and they never advance.

I wish I could have the lesson money I spent over the last many years now when I have these three simple abilities. I have been taking many fewer lessons yet advancing much more because of being able to do these three simple things plus having the focus and fortitude to experiment away from my (riding) trainer.

[Dresseur]

^agree wholeheartedly. This is the single most important change that I have made over the past year that has led to my personal improvements.

[musical comedy]

Ditto stuff that Dresseur and Tsavo wrote. Too many things to quote.

When a trainer tells a rider to shorten the reins, putting on the leg/seat aids will only work if the rider understands connection and what they are looking for AND if the horse is prepared enough physically to accept the aids. If a horse is locked up somewhere and not supple, then trying to connect with shorter reins will fail.

This was the biggest issue I had taking lessons. My trainer apparently could not see (or didn't care) that my horse was not through enough to do some of the things he asked me to do. Sometimes, yes, you have to push through things a bit and not just allow the horse to go back to his comfort zone, but other times not. You have to know your horse and you have to have enough feel and understanding to know what to do.

I cannot ride with my shoulders back and down as they should be. I have lordorsis, rounded shoulders, and a bit of a dowager hump and to force that position puts me too arched in the back.

I love the idea of working out with a personal trainer, but I still have to wonder why it should take so much core strength to ride a horse if that horse is trained to respond to light half halts. I can see it of necessity if you are a trainer, needing to teach young horses.

With respect to the vertical upper arm , I still contend it is better to have the upper arm not totally perpendicular because that often puts the elbow behind the hip.

[Tsavo]

I cannot ride with my shoulders back and down as they should be. I have lordorsis, rounded shoulders, and a bit of a dowager hump and to force that position puts me too arched in the back.

I agree that lordosis is a big issue in being able to use your lower back for so many things in dressage. But maybe it is not the absolute amount of flattening the back as say in a HH but just decreasing it enough so that the horse takes it.

I love the idea of working out with a personal trainer, but I still have to wonder why it should take so much core strength to ride a horse if that horse is trained to respond to light half halts. I can see it of necessity if you are a trainer, needing to teach young horses.

That's a very good point that is somewhat counter-intuitive I think. I think you just need enough core to have complete control over your own balance. I think my gym work is over kill for my core needs for riding. Very old expert riders seem to do just fine and I have to wonder how much actual core strength they have. Maybe skill alone can substitute for some core strength. There are a few times as you say when a trainer might need super core (a horse that drops the back repeatedly for example) but they can get thru that in short order if they know what they are doing.

With respect to the vertical forearm, I still contend it is better to have the forearm not totally perpendicular because that often puts the elbow behind the hip.

Do you mean vertical "upper arm"? I think enough top riders ride with the elbows in front of the body (e.g., duJardin) that I think that might be something to emulate.

[musical comedy]

Duh. Yes I meant upper arm. I will go and edit.

[galopp]

One can adjust the reins with the elbows at the sides, most especially on a circle, with just the fingers (or keep the thumbs on the bight of the reins to prevent it being lost in the first place). When gathering up the reins in the first place (standing still), it is keep the elbow on the side, take the bight of the rein up with the inside hand (without reaching forward) until the horse is mobile in the jaw, and then place that back on the reins. There is no leg involved in that.

What is interesting that in reality a vertical upper arm does have the elbow behind the hip, not over it (as we are told). I agree. It is that that gives very little with the seat incredible effect for very little action. When the upper arms are ifV, then the rider ends up using more and more body english and often being btv to get effect.

[musical comedy]

What is interesting that in reality a vertical upper arm does have the elbow behind the hip, not over it (as we are told). I agree. It is that that gives very little with the seat incredible effect for very little action. When the upper arms are ifV, then the rider ends up using more and more body english and often being btv to get effect.

Galopp, which riders past and present ride with that totally vertical upper arm. Even SRS pics I see mostly don't. I think it is pretty darn hard to find many photos of riders with this arm position that also don't have their hands at or behind the pommel, like this.

[Tsavo]

Wow! I don't ride with my hands in my lap but if I ever do I will REFUSE to get called on it and just cite to deKunffy!!!

[galopp]

http://www.artisticdressage.com/photos/ ... dorff5.jpg
http://www.eurodressage.com/equestrian/ ... man_01.jpg
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/yw1mAizHrjY/hqdefault.jpg
g

[galopp]

http://www.artisticdressage.com/photos/waetjen1.jpg
http://mikolkadressage.com/wordpress/wp ... ffe_lg.jpg
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/23 ... 2e894d.jpg

[galopp]

http://d3smcx1ckyjfrg.cloudfront.net/wp ... 33x200.jpg
http://horsemansnews.com/old/images/sto ... ehorse.jpg
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/73 ... 8ef0f2.jpg

[Tsavo]

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/ ... 798317120/

[Tsavo]

[Tsavo]

This one shows an almost vertical upper arm...

[Chisamba]

Even Carl is critical of Charlotte arm. It is not considered the part of her riding to emulate. She rides well despite it not because of it.

Jmho.

[Chisamba]

The very first random SRS image I found http://dressage.com/SRS/images/14pasdedeux400.jpg

Vertical upper arm

[StraightForward]

I've been following along with this discussion with a lot of interest.

Based on the photos being posted, they are all of highly trained horses, mostly in moments of collection. Just as the horse isn't expected to start out with, or stay in collection, it seems like the rider's posture and arm position would change through the levels of training?

It doesn't seem appropriate to me to look at any of these photos and assume that the way these horses are being ridden is appropriate for my green 4 year old. I just went back through some pics and video of myself riding Obie a few years ago, and it seems that I would have been better off with a more forward arm and shorter rein, whereas I had a vertical arm and a longer rein, and it was resulting in unsteady connection with my TL horse.