Tempis and straightness...

[Dresseur]

This is half musings, half exercise ideas. Maybe someone has been where I'm at now and has some sage advice. If anyone has followed my story throughout the years, I struggle with the canter. A lot of that is experience - up until I started riding for Andrea, I had not experienced many canters, and certainly not trouble shooting canter issues. With the upper level work, that brings a whole different power level that I really have no baseline for. The pirouette canter is different from the the different tempis' canter etc. At this point, I've finally had a bit of a break through in terms of my effectiveness in how I'm riding the canter. I'm able to ask for collection without working my back against the reins, I can ask the horse to telescope the neck in all the movements. Piris, hp etc. no problem.

Tempis are still another story for me. I can get the 4's, I can get the 3's consistently. I can get the 2's, but not consistently. The ones I struggle with. There is still a baseline crookedness creeping into my tempis. I start to hold as the power level ramps up - which means I'm contracting the neck. Some of this is just comfort level within the movements, but the crookedness is an issue that I can correct because there is more time in the 4's and 3's. In the 2's and 1's, I start swinging the neck around to compensate for what's happening behind me.

In order to combat this, Andrea introduced a new exercise for me, doing a couplet on a circle. This is actually how she teaches young horses how to do ones in the first place and she thought it may highlight a few things. I was horrified to find that, yup, I'm getting the left to right change by pulling her head over to the outside - which means I don't have a prayer at coming back to the left lead. This also tells me that my circle on the left lead is not straight. So, until I can ride the circle straight, with her funneled, I'm doing this exercise. But, I'm curious if any of you have struggled with this and if you have any other exercises to help the straightness for the rider to feel, or to get the feel of the quick hip movement of the ones - without twisting the neck around. Gala is ship-straight, you can roll a ball between her legs as she does changes - as long as I'm not riding her

[Chisamba]

its sounds very simple but is not actually easy, really important to ride back to front. still low hands, more leg. Now i think you have told me before that you want to use more seat than leg for the change and if that is the way the horse is trained, its complicated, but the more you try to use seat, instead of just letting it be a natural swing, the more you fling the horse side to side. I sit still on the center of the horse, keep my hands still, and really focus on leg and rhythm. my horse was a tempi machine to tell you the truth, so it was not particularly difficult so i was able to really focus on me. But i remember really having to sit very still and keep my hands very still, to be able to make the changes straight

edited to add, i was also given the exercise to do the changes on a circle, and obviously a figure of eight so the changes were being practiced on both circles

[Dresseur]

Chisamba, it's funny that you mention hands. I'm undergoing a bit of a shift in my riding and am actively trying to keep my hands a bit lower overall. I had a tendency to keep raising my hands higher and higher, which contracts the neck. I haven't practiced it enough that it's second nature yet, but it's coming - and it's really helping me keep necks longer overall. I do try my best to ride back to front, but of course, I sometimes start to overpower things with my hands, which I know is an issue, particularly as I ramp the canter up for the 2's or 1's.

The biggest issue is that rather than funneling the horse - I pull on the rein (think unilateral hh instead of bilateral) which swings her head and neck around. Bad. Bad. Bad. And I can't seem to stop myself from doing it. I'm actually wondering if I bridge the reins, or try to ride one handed that if it will also help to stem this habit. It's not as pronounced going from right, left, right lead - probably because she's straighter naturally on that side. The figure eight, I really start to pull the head in the new lead, so, I'm banned from that for a bit.

In terms of the seat - yes, I am at a disadvantage because she is trained to Andrea's aids- which means that I have to be incredibly precise, and it's not just a cue. So, I'm not just touching with the spur to get the change, or another straight cue. The set up is almost as important as the actual change, so I'm not shoving or swinging my seat into her to get the change, just switching my hip and the leg follows. I'm not sure if I'm explaining what is happening correctly - but when Andrea does it, there is zero swinging in the body of the horse, or bringing the horse side to side. And she doesn't look like she's moving at all. I'm causing all the swinging by what I'm doing with the reins, and not getting her straight in the first place.

[piedmontfields]

This is well beyond my pay grade as a challenge, but I was going to ask about riding them one-handed and whether the problem changed. That is huge for sensitive horses IME.

[Flight]

Beyond me too, but was thinking similar to Piedmontfields. Try one handed or something where you will not be using your hands. Was it Courtney King-Dye who said if your coach tells you to do something, really exaggerate it because it's likely you feel like you are making a change, but in fact you are barely doing it?

[Dresseur]

I think next time, I'll try to bridge the reins to stop myself from pulling one way or another - if that gets me somewhere, I'll try one handed. I'm encouraged by the exercise on the circle - now I just have to figure out how to stop pulling her around. After she did so much showing with me, she took the summer off and just taught light lessons, so I've not been schooling tempis etc. Looking forward to making improvements again this winter.

[Ponichiwa]

When I have had tempi straightness issues in the past, it's because instead of walking each new hip bone straight forward, I have collapsed laterally. I've improved it by sitting on the floor and walking my seatbones forward without swinging my upper body-- takes a lot more core stability than I was using previously.

Generally, over-riding either with the hands or with your body is in response to the canter quality diminishing. I also had a lot of luck with asking for almost medium canter in the 2s and 1s-- it never actually gets to medium canter, but keeps the jump alive and makes it much easier to keep everything straight (just like riding a bike!).

[Dresseur]

Ponichiwa, that is something interesting for me to ponder. I do seem to have the canter quality - because I can get the changes as long as I don't do something stupid My guess is that this is the last vestige of my hunter jumper roots. I'm ashamed to admit that I learned changes the way so many others did - pull the horse over onto the new lead. Because I'm insecure in the changes, I revert back to that. And I don't think that I'm collapsing but I will pay close attention to it - I do know that I start to come a bit forward rather than riding the 2s and 1s out in front of me, so that is also part of it.

[Ponichiwa]

Some of the tempi-machine type of horses can do some version of clean changes even from suboptimal canters. I'm not sure if that's the case here. But it is "easier" to get crooked from a canter that's a bit too on-the-spot (vs jumping forward with gusto).

I can say is that keeping my chest up and open and keeping my hips level really improved the straightness. This is something I've struggled to remember when doing the single changes on my mare lately, so thanks for starting this topic!

[Dresseur]

That's a very good point. I will say that she's difficult because she can get stuck. And she's VERY gifted in bringing her hind legs under so I have to be very vigilant about that.

[tlkidding]

Have that rogue hand hold the bucking strap in the changes. Once I did that, I actually found my horse needed more support from the opposite rein to help him stand up and stay straight - I raise that hand a bit in the changes and keep my overactive hand down and very, very quiet.

[MaryC]

walking each new hip bone straight forward

Ponichiwa - talk more about this! We're working on sequence changes with not so much counting, just asking when organized. I feel like I've got a bunch of little niggly things interfering with our progress (which I won't bore you with) and your comment is interesting.

[tlkidding]

walking each new hip bone straight forward

Ponichiwa - talk more about this! We're working on sequence changes with not so much counting, just asking when organized. I feel like I've got a bunch of little niggly things interfering with our progress (which I won't bore you with) and your comment is interesting.

Interjecting - I think of pointing my hip bones forward and moving my seat bones kind of like bike pedals. The point of your hips make the same motion but I find feeling my seat bones easier. I think about the new inside seat bone starting the change by coming back, up (giving space for the new inside hind to jump through), and then landing down and forward with the new leading foreleg. There is not side-to-side with the seat bones (or hips) in the change.

I start by practicing in the single changes, then it really helps me with my counted tempis as I start the seat bone movement on the "and" before the last count (1 and 2 and 3 AND 4). The ones come so fast, it's more of a simple up and down with the seat bones and less back and forward.

[Ponichiwa]

walking each new hip bone straight forward

Ponichiwa - talk more about this! We're working on sequence changes with not so much counting, just asking when organized. I feel like I've got a bunch of little niggly things interfering with our progress (which I won't bore you with) and your comment is interesting.

Interjecting - I think of pointing my hip bones forward and moving my seat bones kind of like bike pedals. The point of your hips make the same motion but I find feeling my seat bones easier. I think about the new inside seat bone starting the change by coming back, up (giving space for the new inside hind to jump through), and then landing down and forward with the new leading foreleg. There is not side-to-side with the seat bones (or hips) in the change.

I start by practicing in the single changes, then it really helps me with my counted tempis as I start the seat bone movement on the "and" before the last count (1 and 2 and 3 AND 4). The ones come so fast, it's more of a simple up and down with the seat bones and less back and forward.

I agree with all of this. Thinking about seat bones going straight forwards/backwards like bike pedals or like Nordic track skis has helped break my habit of compensating by swinging side to side, which as you can imagine means my changes got a lot straighter.

I found that it was less crucial in the wider sequences (singles, 4s, and 3s) but absolutely critical for the 2s and 1s.

[Dresseur]

This is also what I mean by using my seat when I ask for changes - a kind of back and forth slide like nordic skis. The problem is my hands decide to do other things and help out.

[tlkidding]

This is also what I mean by using my seat when I ask for changes - a kind of back and forth slide like nordic skis. The problem is my hands decide to do other things and help out.

Grab the bucking strap with the hand that's more out of control (or both hands if you want). It will really show you how much you've been pulling the neck out of alignment.

[Chisamba]

I dont know why I bother since no one believes me, or cares, but I come from a family of belly dancers. Every hip, seat bone or abdominal isolation comes from the knees and toes. If you place your thighs and leg correctly you dont even have to think about your seat. Stillness, straight and elastic changes originate from quiet hands and soft elastic leg motion.
However, dont mind me. I shall go off and play in my lower level sandbox.

[Dresseur]

Chisamba, you know that I respect what you have to say! I'm just struggling to explain how I ask for the changes, my guess is that I'm explaining it nqr and that I am using more leg than I think that I am. TLK, no bucking strap - could probably grab the front of the saddle. And I only ride the mare once a week, so I have to wait a few more days to experiment.

[Ponichiwa]

Re: Dressuer-- you could also bridge your reins and get a similar outcome as the bucking strap.

Chisamba-- the difference of leg vs. seat aids may be an entirely mental game for me. I know when I was focusing on my leg aids, I tipped forward or rocked side to side more. When I think about minimal leg and changes mainly off my seat, I can guarantee you I'm still using legs but the outcome is much straighter (for me).

[Dresseur]

Ponichiwa, yes, I'm going to do that - I think I had mentioned it in one of my first posts - and I'll certainly report back!

[Ponichiwa]

Oops! Shame on me for not reading. Good luck!

[Flight]

Do some video and slo mo it to really see what's going on?

[HafDressage]

Dresseur - So I think the twos are the easiest of the tempi changes because the rhythm is so even. AND also in fairness probably because I learned them on a horse who was so insanely good at them it was almost like he was saying put your leg here now, now here, now here. So, I think that helped. For me, 4's I hate....and right now, with my horse, just changes in general. lol.

I think your idea bout bridging your reins might help and also perhaps think about that you switch your leg every stride in the 2's. Because there is no stride in between, the timing of your aids should be very rhythmic each stride. Also, I think you might need to think a little less about moving the seat and perhaps more about just staying very straight and even and just using the leg aid. I know you are big into changes off the seat, but I think for the 2's and 1's you might need to think more about the leg aid. I think if you watch the top riders ride the 2's and particularly the 1's, you will see the leg aid more clearly than movement of the seat as what is actually asking for the change. That is how I was taught them and I think when the changes start coming so quickly like the 2's and 1's it's really hard to think about moving the seat that much.

Good luck and let us know what ends up helping.

[Dresseur]

Well, tomorrow I have a lesson, but I was able to take a half day of work and ride 2 horses today. One of those horses was Gala. I bridged my reins and it was informative. I'm not pulling on the rein to create the change, the pull happens after - and it's most pronounced on the left to right change.

So, the two going theories I have are that:
1. I'm making much too big of a movement with my hip (something that Haf and Chisamba have mentioned) and that's causing a whip through my body so the pull is more like a flail as my body twists. Too large of a hip movement would also explain the difficulties in the 1's - I just can't go through that range of motion fast enough. I'm going to try to think more of moving my legs just to see if I can feel something different. Actually, on further thought, I'm going to see if the thought of just pushing my knees forward helps me to minimize the movement of my hips.

2. That Gala is getting crooked (obv I'm allowing it) and that after the change, I'm trying to correct a left hook by pulling her head back over. This is very likely - as today, I had her crooked as all get out when instead of fixing her stealing the right to left change, I ignored it and then I had no changes for a bit until I fixed that, but I had to use my right leg instead of pulling on the right rein like I love to do...

Will report back on my lesson tomorrow.

[Chisamba]

The most difficult thing about ones is absolutely the immediacy of the aids.

I found your observation of overcorrecting with the reins after changing very familiar

[Dresseur]

Familiar in what way, Chisamba? Because you've experienced that or because I've complained about it before

I had my lesson today - she was my 5th horse of the day, so I had 4 to practice the idea of pushing my knee forward. I have to say, I instantly liked the more subtle movement of my hip. Every horse stepped nicely into canter without any extra gyrations from me. 2 of the horses that I was on before Gala can do single changes, so I was able to at least get the feel for what I was trying to do, and again, I liked what I was feeling - everything happened when I asked and was pretty straight.

With Gala, I was pleased that she felt pretty good after my ride on her yesterday. I didn't have to do any damage control with the quality of the baseline gaits. Once I got into canter, I did a few singles to practice the motion. Each was directly on me, and I felt no need to pull. For my first line of 3's, I rode straight down quarterline so that I could see in the mirror and I was pleased that they seemed to come easier. I did another line of 3s across the diagonal and was able to nail that. (usually I make at least one mistake ) From there, I went into 2's - these actually worked. I did feel that I started to revert back to my habit as the aids had to come quicker, but overall - they happened when I asked, and I was able to control them and they were markedly straighter. So, I think that this idea of pushing my knee forward (not moving my whole leg), is going to help me quite a bit.

1's were kind of a disaster, but, I was able to get some couplets on my own, and then I was able to get a line after Andrea got on and did 2 lines of 1's. I was pleased to see (and be told) that my canter quality was fine, and that she felt that Gala was straight and that she didn't have to do damage control - which means that this is definitely a technique thing. Of course, the second I started doing 1's, every bad habit I have came back with a vengeance, but, I feel like progress was made today. So, I guess it was only half a disaster

[Chisamba]

I meant a familiar mistake because I had to hold a bucking strap to learn still hands in my changes. My hands come up and I until I stopped trying to push my hips I would lean and tip. So if I was doing a left change my right hand lifted. I had to hold something to teach my hands to be still and think less about seat to be straighter. So it all sounds familiar.

If I'm lucky enough to get back to tempi, I feel like I'll have to learn it all over again.

And I wont have a machine, like Sunstorm was.

[Dresseur]

Bridging the reins and holding onto the front of the saddle definitely helped me keep my hands under control I think that this is going to take a long while for me to learn how to ask for the 1's - especially since I can only practice once a week. :/

[HafDressage]

Dresseur glad the rein bridging helped a bit! I had one more thought that I thought might be worth mentioning. The other thing that I was taught with the 2's and 1's is that the outside leg should tap not slide (well changes in general actually). So, it's like tap right, tap left, tap right, etc. Rather then sliding your leg back and forth up and down their sides. Perhaps thinking of that might help too.

Strangely right now I'm having the opposite problem where I can get two or three good clean changes on a line, but our single change still seems less confirmed than I would like or sometimes just not there. A month ago we went through a phase where the L-R change was completely gone, but the R-L was popping off clean and nicely. Now, literally the opposite. Le sigh.

[Dresseur]

Well, I'm starting to be a lot straighter, I knocked off some beautiful 3's and then ramped her up way too much for the two's. My baseline canter is much better, so Andrea told me that I was doing way, way too much. Back to riding on 1/4 line and making sure that Gala is ship straight and that I am looking into the mirrors so that I can tell when she's straight. Then I'm supposed to ask for a change when ever, where ever on that quarter line and keep her straight. I'm not worried about the count - I don't seem to have a problem with that - would much rather concentrate on riding straight and accurately.

[piedmontfields]

I will point out the obvious, Dresseur: That is quite a lot of progress in understanding and method in a few short weeks!

[Flight]

I started doing that with Ding, just ride straight and ask when straight. I still do a tug the rein to the left for some stupid reason.
Only a bit related, but just wanted to take the opportunity to say thanks for explaining previously how you teach single changes. All clean changes today with Norsey, I was struggling with the late behinds. These types of threads I need to start saving!

[Dresseur]

Thank you Piedmont and Flight!
This last lesson went well - I'm practicing collections on quarterline into the mirrors so that I can see if I get her crooked in the set up, and then we went into changes. She was quite crooked yesterday as she had taught what amounted to an up/down lesson earlier in the day. (yes, even the GP horse has to earn her keep ) So I had my work cut out for me trying to avoid bad habits and trying to improve her feel. She never goes twice in the day, so she was especially difficult - but it was ok, because I could feel what was working and what wasn't.

The first change r/l worked beautifully, the second l/r did not. But as I continued to school the canter and the changes, she became straighter and more uphill and the last line was lovely. Interestingly, as I worked through things, I could feel her throwing everything my way - bulging against my left leg, diving through the left shoulder, dropping the base of her neck, getting too big in the canter, getting too stuck in the canter. It was as if she was saying, you don't normally correct these things, so now I have to try something else, because I'm quite content doing crooked, downhill changes with you

So, the upshot is that while it was a difficult ride, I learned a lot - and, I wasn't flinging myself all over the place!

[Dresseur]

Another little onion layer peeled off. I had a great ride yesterday. I did all my changes into the mirrors, so I was riding some interesting patterns to make the most use of them. (Only one long side has mirrors.) One of the things that I had noticed on another horse was that I tend to leave my left leg turned out a bit more than my right. Now, this probably wouldn't matter if I had trained the changes - but on Gala, it appears as though it was an opening. I made sure that I had my leg turned in at the hip in all the changes, and we went right down through the count in big expressive changes that I could put anywhere, on my timing. The only count I didn't do was the 1's because I was unsupervised and things were going so well that I didn't want to end on a bad note. What I'm finding is that she's really using that opening I gave to her by not having the flat of my thigh on her to dive through the shoulder - which is what is making me pull her head back over to the right. If I have my leg on, she stays funneled, and I don't have to do any contortions. Even the 2s were pretty settled in my body. This won't be a magic fix, but it did seem to help correct what I was experiencing in the last post.

[Dresseur]

It's interesting that several weeks ago, all of the wheels to the bus fell off and I was starting to miss single changes again and yesterday and the day before, I was schooling 1's again successfully. Now, mind you, I don't have control over them, BUT, I'm able to ask for them, and she's locking into the rhythm, which allows me to feel it.

Very interestingly, I feel as though I have a lot of time in the 2s now. My friend and I were talking about what it takes to juggle and that you start with just throwing and catching a ball or two, and as you get proficient, you start to feel that you have all the time in the world, which is when the 3rd ball gets added. My experience with tempis has been like this. At first the 4s and 3s came up so quickly, that 2s seemed to be an impossibility, and now I feel like I have all the time in the world in the 3s, and the 2s are starting to feel less quick and frantic, which means the 1s are a possibility. I'm fixing things within the lines - and I'm over-riding less and less. When she's crooked, I over-ride. Period, end of story. So, I have to pay much more attention to her straightness (kind of a no brainer, I know, but I couldn't feel what she was doing because everything was happening so fast). I'm now testing myself. Into the mirror for straightness, lines away from the mirror for count and to test my feel.

I just read a book by Beudant, and he said of the 1's: "The horse learns his part readily enough; not so the man; to him, only after long practice comes the cunning skill to act with hand or leg at the fleeting moment when the act is to succeed." So, while this is ridiculously exciting for me, I'm resigned to the thought that the wheels will come off several more times before I get the hang of this.