dealing with stickiness

[blob]

I've been dealing with some 'stickiness' with MM lately. It's something that's been there for awhile and I just have not addressed it as diligently as I should. But I'm now realizing it's a a fundamental/basics thing I need to address in order to progress our training.

and I'm hoping some of you will have helpful thoughts/tips/ideas on how to address it.

Here's my best effort at explaining what i'm calling 'stickiness':

when I ask MM for an upward transition--she is obedient, but rather than fluidly going into the movement it's almost like she sucks back/pauses for a nanosecond and then pops herself forward into it. It's not something that's very visible from the ground, but it's very easy to feel if you're on her. The transitions are almost always uphill, but I imagine this is partly because she 'pops' up into the transition instead of fluidly stepping into it. She does this same thing to a lesser degree when changing bend or lateral position. Meaning, if I"m going into SI or changing from SI to HI for example, again at the moment of change there's this sort of sucking back as she repositions herself. She doesn't stop trotting, but the feel of the gait changes. I can address this much more easily and it's more minimal in the changing of positon. It's the transition where I really feel it.

Any ideas of exercises to help this or what the root might be and how to address that?

[khall]

What helped with Gaila was to do the transition in some form of lateral movement. LY or SI to mostly.

[Ponichiwa]

It sounds like you're on your way to diagnosis already. With something like this, I'd do lots of transitions within the same gait between different movements (HP/LY, HP/SI, SI/HI, etc.) to build fluency. Once the feel is right, hold the movement and do a gait transition within it. I've been preaching transitions in SI for years, but recently (i.e. this week) had a breakthrough in HI as it finally got through to the Melty Cheese that he needed to keep that outside hind swinging under the center of gravity... which is a long way of saying: experiment til something clicks.

Depending on the degree of "sidedness" MM has, the "right" positioning may differ for each side (i.e. SI going left, HI going right). Whatever works to help de-bug the connection.

Other things that may help: transitions directly to medium gaits. Potential downside: can reduce the uphill tendency if things get too charge-y. Upside: reinforces that "go now!" feeling.

Also, monitor your own breathing. You may be holding your breath in the upward transitions and inadvertently blocking somewhere.

Finally, this is mainly a strength issue. Takes time and effort to build the right musculature to make things look (and feel!) light and easy-- so give her (and yourself) breaks and mental room as you build this skill. It's hard!

[blob]

What helped with Gaila was to do the transition in some form of lateral movement. LY or SI to mostly.

Right now this would make things worse as transition = stickiness and start of laterl movement = stickiness


Thanks, Poncihiwa-- the transitions within gait are fluid and so that helps, but it's hard to translate them over to the transitions between gaits.
I agree that physicality plays a role, but I do think this i mroe of a habit than overall lack of strength-- which makes it tricky.

[khall]

I highly suggest this wih and US with the side stepping or steep rotations to help supple MM in the hips. The counter turns help open up the chest

https://fb.watch/aTTYLOSbH1/

[Ponichiwa]

Thanks, Poncihiwa-- the transitions within gait are fluid and so that helps, but it's hard to translate them over to the transitions between gaits.
I agree that physicality plays a role, but I do think this i mroe of a habit than overall lack of strength-- which makes it tricky.

Re-reading what I wrote, I think I was unclear. In my first paragraph, I actually meant transitions between movements within the same gait (i.e. not transitions between medium and collected trot, but transitions between HI/SI/renvers etc.) as you called this out as a similar-but-not-as-bad feeling as what you get in the transitions between gaits.

If so, then taking out the "and you have to change the pattern of footfalls" element may enable you to get at that pause between aid and reaction in a less confrontational way. I think I've ridden this before-- the horse is so committed to the uphill balance that the fluency isn't there (sometimes this also means there's an over-engagement of the hind end beyond the horse's ability to maintain that level of balance).

[tlkidding]

I deal with the same thing in upwards transitions between gaits and similar in the lateral work, although we a just starting to learn it with my 4 y/old. It's because he's not thinking "forward" all the time, and then when I add complexity, even if it's just adding leg to change gaits, he slows his feet down to process in his brain.

I address it from the walk with a light leg and adding stick until he's jumping forward and I can feel the upwards transition all the time. I will even do some walk/canter (even though they are ugly) to fix the trot/canter. I actually want him to anticipate an upwards transition all the time, which is a big change from my older horse who I was preventing from anticipating. When I add leg yield or shoulder in, I actually have to push him over his natural tempo before I ask for any lateral work, and then the hips and shoulders are easier to move. He'll naturally slow down a bit throughout the movement but then I can leave it and let the gait settle or leave it and ask for more forward if he's behind the leg.

With your horse, I'd ask for a bit more forward right before you change positioning in the lateral work. I bet pretty quickly you'll just have to half halt, think about adding leg/forward, and then change the positioning and MM will stay more fluid.

I also think it's a bit of a throughness problem - the horse is disconnects the connection from the hind leg to the hand for a moment. So I'd also be carefully analyzing the throughness for a more educated horse like MM. For my young guy, I just want something in the rein all the time but it's still not through or consistent yet.

[blob]

I also think it's a bit of a throughness problem - the horse is disconnects the connection from the hind leg to the hand for a moment. So I'd also be carefully analyzing the throughness for a more educated horse like MM. For my young guy, I just want something in the rein all the time but it's still not through or consistent yet.

Thanks, Tlkidding, all very helpful thoughts and suggestions. And yes, it is absolutely a throughness problem with MM. Because her natural head set is pretty much exactly where you'd want it to be, soft in the mouth, and has more whoa than go. It has has been easy for me to get sloppy about my standard for actually keeping her through. I don't think this is an 'always been this way' problem. But it's definitely a problem of the last year or so. and now i'm having to readdress it all, so a lot of back to basics-- are my reins staying short? Are the upward transitions prompt and forward and fluid? Are the downward transitions forward and into the hand? If we are in the hand and forward, are we still supple? I'm trying to transition these questions into 'yes's' when they have slipped into 'no's'.

I'm learning that MM's forgiving nature actually makes her a harder horse to ride correctly. there is no immediate consequence for getting sloppy or doing the wrong thing, so it's easy to not realize it right away. Compared to an RP where if I don't have a half halt, we're running. If he's not supple his nose is ten feet in the air. If i'm not straight and soft in my body he is horribly crooked. If i get loud or busy with my aids, he panics. Because there is an immediate consequence, i fix it right away. MM will go around pleasantly pretty much no matter what. So, I have to remember to hold myself to a high standard and to re-evaluate little things, otherwise we end up where we are now where months and months of not using her body correctly have made her not want to use her body correctly.

[heddylamar]

Do you ever have bodywork done on MM?

When I'm having a similar change of gait stickiness in myself, it's usually my left hip sticking again (the technical term of my favorite physical therapist ). I'll be walking with a big open stride just fine, and my shorter hill-climbing backpacking stride will be good. But when I'm running, I'll start developing a bit of a hitch that needs to be addressed before I start moving funky and bruising all that soft tissue.

Shiatsu or acupuncture normally gets everything working in alignment again, although I occasionally need dry needling instead.

[tlkidding]

I'm learning that MM's forgiving nature actually makes her a harder horse to ride correctly. there is no immediate consequence for getting sloppy or doing the wrong thing, so it's easy to not realize it right away. Compared to an RP where if I don't have a half halt, we're running. If he's not supple his nose is ten feet in the air. If i'm not straight and soft in my body he is horribly crooked. If i get loud or busy with my aids, he panics. Because there is an immediate consequence, i fix it right away. MM will go around pleasantly pretty much no matter what. So, I have to remember to hold myself to a high standard and to re-evaluate little things, otherwise we end up where we are now where months and months of not using her body correctly have made her not want to use her body correctly.

This is super interesting and very true - with both my older horse and the young guy, things are pretty pleasant because they are just pleasant horses. It's when you are challenging the upper limit of their knowledge or physical ability/strength that you find the holes that were masked by "pleasantness." I will perpetually be working on this throughout the training journey and with every horse in different ways.

I think transitions are the way to diagnose pretty much every issue/hole - transitions between gaits, within gaits, and in lateral work (i.e., t/w transition in SI) will show you the areas that need to be addressed. They all pretty much boil down to not staying in front of the leg, not accepting a half halt/being out of balance, and not connecting from hind leg to hand.

[blob]

Do you ever have bodywork done on MM?

She gets body-work done monthly because she is a spoiled princess

I had a series of chiro appointments for her in the spring/summer but then my life got hectic and i had to cancel an appointment and never got around to re-scheduling. So fell out of that loop, but I should call and get her another one.

[Chisamba]

I don't do the transition. I ask, but in the moment that she sucks back I would send her forward into a medium gait. The collect, then approach the transition, then go medium, I often do this on a circle. When the horse is very adjustable and forward into the contact within the transitions, I actually do a transition.

I find this resistance often with my riders who significantly shorten the reins before they transition, is it possible that you are shortening the neck in your lateral or upward transitions.

The other possibility is hormonal. Especially in the spring I find masters respond to the leg differently, their instinct being too equate it to a stallion mounting. Even though they ate trained and obedient the sensation is so similar that they have a moment of hormonal response. If I suspect this I will use the lightest leg possible and a touch worth the whip to sympathize with the circumstance.

[blob]

I don't do the transition. I ask, but in the moment that she sucks back I would send her forward into a medium gait. The collect, then approach the transition, then go medium, I often do this on a circle. When the horse is very adjustable and forward into the contact within the transitions, I actually do a transition.

I find this resistance often with my riders who significantly shorten the reins before they transition, is it possible that you are shortening the neck in your lateral or upward transitions.

The other possibility is hormonal. Especially in the spring I find masters respond to the leg differently, their instinct being too equate it to a stallion mounting. Even though they ate trained and obedient the sensation is so similar that they have a moment of hormonal response. If I suspect this I will use the lightest leg possible and a touch worth the whip to sympathize with the circumstance.

Good suggestion on not letting the transition go through if she sucks back.

Re: reins: I'm pretty sure I am not actually shortening my reins before the transitions, I tend to have the opposite problem. Having said that I AM trying to not let my reins get a mile long any time she is not super forward and so right now she is probably being ridden in a shorter rein overall than she is used to. It's not actually that short, she's just gotten used to me ltetting the reins run out my fingers constantly. So I was always having to shorten my rein after the transition.

Interesting point on the hormones. I think that could be playing some role, for sure, but i do also think that there is a gap/hole in my work that I need to address related to general throughness and it's showing up here big time.

[Chisamba]

I don't do the transition. I ask, but in the moment that she sucks back I would send her forward into a medium gait. The collect, then approach the transition, then go medium, I often do this on a circle. When the horse is very adjustable and forward into the contact within the transitions, I actually do a transition.

I find this resistance often with my riders who significantly shorten the reins before they transition, is it possible that you are shortening the neck in your lateral or upward transitions.

The other possibility is hormonal. Especially in the spring I find masters respond to the leg differently, their instinct being too equate it to a stallion mounting. Even though they ate trained and obedient the sensation is so similar that they have a moment of hormonal response. If I suspect this I will use the lightest leg possible and a touch worth the whip to sympathize with the circumstance.

Good suggestion on not letting the transition go through if she sucks back.

Re: reins: I'm pretty sure I am not actually shortening my reins before the transitions, I tend to have the opposite problem. Having said that I AM trying to not let my reins get a mile long any time she is not super forward and so right now she is probably being ridden in a shorter rein overall than she is used to. It's not actually that short, she's just gotten used to me ltetting the reins run out my fingers constantly. So I was always having to shorten my rein after the transition.

Interesting point on the hormones. I think that could be playing some role, for sure, but i do also think that there is a gap/hole in my work that I need to address related to general throughness and it's showing up here big time.

I am just guessing because I haven't observed . Too long reins can also be a gap in training that needs to be fixed. But when you first fix it you will get the suck back moments because the horse is tightening its neck rather than giving up the base of the neck. This might be your problem since you say she feels stuck into lateral work too.

A few simple things to try. Without adjusting the length of the rein try rotating your hand up , it fingernails skyward. (manicure versus piano player hands) it seems peculiar but it equates with slightly opening the door or creating an opening for energy to go forward. . It stops your hand from blocking the base of the neck. It's a momentary thing not permanent posture. Some refer to it as turning doorknob to open the door . Don't pull back, don't push forward, simply rotate your wrist.

[blob]

Good suggestion, Chisamba. I will try that. I need to be better about actually holding on to the reins with her, so I like the option that keeps me from opening my fingers or throwing my arms forward, while still creating a little space.

[Flight]

I had this a lot in my old friesian x mare, and to some degree in my current horses, especially trot to canter transitions. It's that little pause thing and a bit of a hop up into canter and being friesian she would use her neck to pull up into the trans.
What worked for me, and what I still do now with my current horses, is trot quite forward on 20m circle, stay in rising trot all the way into canter, neck a little more down and forward and sorta run them into canter. Dont worry if it takes a few strides to get canter, or even half a circle when you first do it, you are aiming to eliminate the little pause. Sometimes as a rider, you know the stickiness might come and you add to it without meaning to. Just think of the same speed and let the trot become canter.
If they get too fast in the trot and unbalanced, bring it back and try again. It's not a racing trot, but a good working trot.

[exvet]

I deal with something like this with Junior. He is such an affable guy that I too will find myself more in a lull than immediately fixing the problem. As he gets stronger a lot of this improves but then we're facing the next set of challenges with harder work, then we live the issue again because it is all about being truthfully, honestly and totally committed to being through. I find the suggestions given so far to be quite helpful but one thing that really stuck out for me, reading through them is my own mindset. For example, I know that with working through the flying changes if I allow even the notion into my head that Junior is going to hesitate, well, there it is, the stickiness. I am finding that I first must commit myself to being forward and fluid (almost the same mindset I used to have to adopt without question before a cross country course). I have no doubt that when I let the thoughts of anything like a 'hiccough' creeping into my head that my body reacts accordingly and it's me telling Junior unconsciously that there's a reason to hesitate. We kind of feed off of each other that way and even though it's not dramatic and I can often muscle most anything through the harmony, fluidity and throughness is lost. When I approach the flying changes with a dogmatic mindset that I am not going to hesitate or accept anything less than forward, jumping through and insisting that Junior be through in the connection so that he can't try to lift his poll with his withers (this is how and where I feel his body hesitate) then we get nice big and forward, clean changes. I get the stickiness in other pieces of my riding, but the FC is the most dramatic in feel between right and wrong for me and it's where I can tell when my head (and thus body or seat) is in the wrong place not in terms of position but in terms of allowing the energy to flow freely through me.

[khall]

So true Exvet.

[blob]

Flight--you are definitely describing the same feeling. Rather than neck though, MM pulls with her shoulder into it. So often it feels very uphill, but it's a fake uphill--popping the shoulder up, not sitting the butt down. Good suggestions on the trot-canter on the circle exercise--i have played with it some, but will continue to stick with it. Trot to canter does seem to be the easist transition to deal with this stickiness since it's much easier to push through stickiness in the trot than in the walk.

Exvet, this is also helpful--thinking about the mindset. I absolutely feel it in MM's changes as well. but for now the changes are tabled because I know that if I can't address this in the trot-canter and walk-canter then it will def be there in the changes. I also know this is part of the reason her changes can get a bit late behind, she pauses and then leaps up with her shoulder, so of course the front end changes before the hind end.

[khall]

Blob I don’t know if this helps or not but if the reason MM struggles is because she gets climby rather than stays through then just live in forward and then forward and lateral. The one Andalusian I rode in Spain was this way. If he started feeling that bit of hesitancy the instructor would have me GO whatever gait we were in.

Joplin will do this just a bit and of course it is me not committing to the new gait. I’ve got to learn to keep that leg on and ask forward in and after the transition to canter which is where her hesitancy crops up. So make sure your leg stays on and supports her through the transition

[blob]

Blob I don’t know if this helps or not but if the reason MM struggles is because she gets climby rather than stays through then just live in forward and then forward and lateral. The one Andalusian I rode in Spain was this way. If he started feeling that bit of hesitancy the instructor would have me GO whatever gait we were in.

Joplin will do this just a bit and of course it is me not committing to the new gait. I’ve got to learn to keep that leg on and ask forward in and after the transition to canter which is where her hesitancy crops up. So make sure your leg stays on and supports her through the transition

She's not quite climby the way some spanish horses I've ridden can be. She is totally normal and fine and then I will ask for the upward and there will be a nanosecond pause and then she will pop into it with her shoulder leading. but it's not actually a climbing gait. And she is forward before and after that hesitation and pop. It's all very split second.