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Long reins have been a real issue when I started dressage.

I'm not sure I'm able to understand what is meant by letting the reins slip? Is there a video?

My frame of reference is when people accidently let the reins get long, thus making contact inconsistent

That's not what we are talking about, Rye. It's not an accidental thing, it's a deliberate allowing of the reins to be pulled through the hands to facilitate a temporary longer length of neck. (Or that's how I understand it!)

I am still not in a place in my head right now to go point to point with Linden, I've had devastating news that the trainer I work with sustained serious injuries yesterday while at a clinic that will probably end his life. I cannot imagine a world without Mark Russell in it.

No it is not about too long of reins, it is about slipping the reins so that the horse can have a longer neck when working at times, as they learn and build balance often too short of reins can block the energy and hind legs of the horse, so we want the horse to shorten in the base from the hind quarters first not the front end first and deliberately letting the reins get a bit longer while working some more difficult exercises that the horse is new to can facilitate him carrying and lifting himself without compression. Since we are talking about 2nd level here where collection is just being introduced, this very much so applies to the riding. I often see a horse ridden in compression rather than collection at this and 3rd level, requiring more leg and seat to keep the horse active and going. Since my trainer was about lightness, he especially emphasized riding with a long enough rein to not block them but short enough to be effective, sometimes that required us to slip the reins during our rides all the while keeping elastic elbows with an elastic connection with the reins. This encourages the horse to have the freedom to lift up from the base of the neck and be in self carriage. As the horse progresses and gets stronger there is less need to slip the reins because the horse can sustain the collection and be in self carriage and still be light.

It really hits home to me when lunging my big guy and I ask for collected canter from the walk, if I deliberately allow a drape in the line (BTW I do not use SRs usually while lunging) my horse really elevates in the front and is light and active. So I try it under saddle as well and sure enough, he engages even more lifting up in the front when I put a bit of drape to the rein and hold him with the seat only.

Khall I'm so sorry to read this news, very sad!

Yes I know its not just reins getting too long.

I'm not sure why one can't just put hands forward? Isn't this sort of rewarding what we don't want?
I'm trying to understand how this works!
I never allow a fussy horse to stretch, I want to reward proper contact. However always giving breaks too!

I found too much variations in length makes it hard for my horse to know my expectations.

Ryeissa wrote:
I'm not sure why one can't just put hands forward? Isn't this sort of rewarding what we don't want?

I got it indirectly from Racinet, who was very interested in providing an instant and often full release, and slipping the reins was an effective way to do that without changing one's own balance. The problem with an elastic contact is that one can't get an immediate release with it because the horse has been taught to stay against the bit, so if the rider tries to release from it all they're going to get is an elastic (stretchy/sloppy) sort of release, and Racinet wanted to be able to teach his horse to be much lighter than that.

kande50 wrote:

Ryeissa wrote:
I'm not sure why one can't just put hands forward? Isn't this sort of rewarding what we don't want?

I got it indirectly from Racinet, who was very interested in providing an instant and often full release, and slipping the reins was an effective way to do that without changing one's own balance. The problem with an elastic contact is that one can't get an immediate release with it because the horse has been taught to stay against the bit, so if the rider tries to release from it all they're going to get is an elastic (stretchy/sloppy) sort of release, and Racinet wanted to be able to teach his horse to be much lighter than that.

I don't want a release, just elastic contact.
I ride a mix of French and German ideas...

Why do you release anyways? Contact should be pleasant and a nice place to be

kande50 wrote:

Ryeissa wrote:
I'm not sure why one can't just put hands forward? Isn't this sort of rewarding what we don't want?

I got it indirectly from Racinet, who was very interested in providing an instant and often full release, and slipping the reins was an effective way to do that without changing one's own balance. The problem with an elastic contact is that one can't get an immediate release with it because the horse has been taught to stay against the bit, so if the rider tries to release from it all they're going to get is an elastic (stretchy/sloppy) sort of release, and Racinet wanted to be able to teach his horse to be much lighter than that.

I'm sorry, but what?

How do you deduce that an elastic contact teaches horses to go against the bit? And that elasticity = sloppy, heavy reins?

It's exactly the opposite. Elasticity created by riding the horse forward from the back to the front and creating a cycle of energy via the aids is what causes lightness, throughness, balance and cadence.

Let's not talk for the sake of talking. Just because there are different schools of riding and training, it doesn't mean we can choose to interpret things however we would like to suit our own theories. There actually are tried, tested and true techniques for training a dressage horse and a true/not true line that people from all schools can recognize.

I agree that there contact should be a rewarding place to be, both for horse and rider. It should feel a bit like holding hands with a significant other. Connected, together, elastic, side by side. Not ones pulling and the other gripping.

Coming into the outside rein should always be inviting. Listening to these rein should be an invitation to return to inviting. You use the legs, seat, and inside rein to teach the horse to like these outside rein,. You do it step wise, incrementally, and always with the goal of creating an inviting connection.

I try to teach my horse to know what that inviting connection feels like and seek it.

Not lean into it, not brace against it, and not avoid it. On my nervous horses it's like having their hand held is scary places. On placid horses they might have to learn to lighten from working tension.

That is my goal .

Now, when teaching I have found that not only is rein length and slippage one of the problems,. But an indirect ( neck rein ) inside rein.

If there horse is correctly bent to these inside, the inside rein should not touch the neck, it is a direct vector.

However may people try to maintain their bend with a neck reining inside rein.

There best metaphor I can think of for this is like trying to fill a bucket with a kink in the hose. No matter how much more pressure you put behind , the kink makes the water dribble into there bucket.

When working with people struggling with shortened necks in collection,. It is because their hands are not maintaining the straight line from elbow to bit,. On either axis. Hands too high, too low, or too close together or worst of all , one held and one released,. Or inside rein at the wither and there outside pulled away.

Ryeissa wrote:Why do you release anyways? Contact should be pleasant and a nice place to be

Because the release is the reward.

Or, we can just teach the horse to ignore the contact, or ignore some level of contact while reacting to a stronger contact, which we could then release to the "base" level of contact. But if one wants a lighter contact, then the base level needs to be lighter. And since Racinet was looking for "weight of the reins" contact he wanted a much quicker, fuller release than what could be gotten with an elastic contact.

IOW, I don't think it's possible to have both a weight of the rein contact and an elastic contact, but then I wouldn't call the feel of "a minnow on the line" an elastic contact, although others might?

There is already a following when you open and close the elbows. You reward by taking a walk break or pat on the neck.

I ride with the weight of the reins and a push to the hand from the energy if the hind end.

If you release the front door you loose the "stung bow" and i am not sure how one could half halt and manage balance with a " flat" contact?

I'm more into Mary wanless school now- I work more on my core and thighs. When i loose the tone my horse pulls more on the reins. I'm not balanced.

Watching Racine ride was not anything I want to emulate, so it's easy to disregard Racine by Kande. However, even the BSM had specific goals and requirements, the main one being that lightness comes from the horse yielding to flexions, the rider applies flexion, the horse lightens to the flexion by changing balance, the rider does NOT slip the rein to create lightness.

With this method understood, it is very methodical and not open to half and half.

"the rider does NOT slip the rein to create lightness" AMEN!!!

Timely post for me, I've been feeling really discouraged lately with show scores at second that keep falling a little short. We are schooling all of third. Honestly showing second is a lot harder than I thought, and Iately I feel like my ability to sit the trot while maintaining a consistent connection is a big part of it. Im at a loss as to how to fix it....I do get regular lessons but I wonder if I need lunge lessons. My Arab is super bouncy to begin with, tension makes it worse if she hollows her back even momentarily. At shows when she is tense it's a huge problem. I end up either hovering over her back or sitting too far back in a chair seat. At home or in lessons I don't have this issue because the connection is good.

I've been so frustrated lately so it's nice to read that I'm not the only one struggling.

Dressuers comments regarding average movers vs fancier movers is spot on IMO.

khall wrote:
. . .Since my trainer was about lightness, he especially emphasized riding with a long enough rein to not block them but short enough to be effective, sometimes that required us to slip the reins during our rides all the while keeping elastic elbows with an elastic connection with the reins. This encourages the horse to have the freedom to lift up from the base of the neck and be in self carriage. As the horse progresses and gets stronger there is less need to slip the reins because the horse can sustain the collection and be in self carriage and still be light...

Thanks for this description. It makes more sense to me now and I can see why some would like this method. I love pictures of Nuno Oliveira riding and also like his writings of dressage as art. From what I've read he had a seat that most can only wish for. Another rider of the lightness school that I love to watch is Phillipe Karl, and what a super seat he has!

However, I also love to watch Edward Gal, though not of the same school, he is still the epitome of lightness. One thing they all have in common is an exceptionally good seat.

And Khall, I am so very sorry to hear about your trainer. Thanks for responding to this thread even though you must be feeling shocked and devastated.

I am still sticking to my original plan which is keeping the reins short and keeping the contact steady and light by elastic elbows, but not slipping the reins. This method makes the most sense to me and additionally, I think it is working for my horse. I don't want to mix and match methods because trying to get just one method consistent is hard enough.

I'd love to see some vids or pics on this thread. I'm still waiting for the Soloshot 3 but in the meantime maybe I'll try to get DH to take some more pics.

Demi, i feel very much like riding dressage is like getting directions when driving to a new place,. For the directions to make sense the person has to know both where you are and where you are going, otherwise you just get lost.

Those is why I mostly take help from people who are working in the same methods I am , started similarly, and know the way.

I have learned that, liked you said, mixing and matching methods simply adds distance to the journey, not progress.

I haven't been taught to slip the reins (only in jumping when I'm getting left behind! ) but have had times of letting the reins be longer to let my horse more forward and in a longer frame. Otherwise it tends to be allowing with my hands up and forwards.

Yes mixing and matching is much harder, and Khall, if you've learned that from your trainer and it works, well you stick to it. Very very sorry to hear about his devastating accident also.

Having a good seat, (Linden, I think, mentioned this earlier), seems obvious but it certainly becomes more apparent how important this is!

mld02004 wrote:
I've been so frustrated lately so it's nice to read that I'm not the only one struggling.

I think that tension can be a huge problem if you have a horse who gets tense at shows and you want to show, because it can take so much exposure to get them to the point where they can be calm enough. When I was going through that with my horse someone suggested that I might want to board him at a busy barn to give him more exposure, which I thought was a really good idea--or at least would have been if I'd been willing to board him.

demi wrote:I am still sticking to my original plan which is keeping the reins short and keeping the contact steady and light by elastic elbows, but not slipping the reins. This method makes the most sense to me and additionally, I think it is working for my horse. I don't want to mix and match methods because trying to get just one method consistent is hard enough.

Agree, demi. When I was taking lessons I did stick to practicing what I was learning in lessons even though I went to clinics, and read, and watched those who who were teaching methods that would have conflicted with what I was doing in my lessons. And then, if I decided I wanted to switch, I switched completely.

With 20/20 hindsight I can see that even though my instructor was telling me that I was ready for 2nd level I never actually would have gotten to where I wanted to be if I'd stayed with her, because even if I'd been able to push-pull my horse up through the levels I never would have achieved what I was looking for.

Now that I'm using a completely different approach I keep running into people who started out the same way I did, became disenchanted with what they were doing, and moved on to something that suited them better.

I no longer see the post I was responding to, so I'm deleting my comment.

Much like demi-

I ride with a long neck on short reins- I tend to keep my hands up and over the withers, if the reins get too long I put them on my lap (oh, yes, I love to do that). I have to anchor my elbows otherwise they float and I tend to cross the withers.

Flexions help my horse not brace and pull on the bit. Just using leg made my horse heavier, I needed to address the mouth. I had to sort of abandon my "isn't this just hand fiddling?" while I learned from my trainer. Of course one must keep the activity over the back. My horse is very very quick and sensitive. This is something that made sense to him and added in a slower/thoughtful tone when he wants to rush and plow around.

Reins really are not the issue as exhibited so well by this video https://www.facebook.com/manuelborba.ve ... =2&theater

I have a question for those of you posting on this thread: do you ever ride one handed? Riding one handed is a very good tool to show you as a rider how much we can block our horses and ride in compression. Riding with too long of a rein is not one of my issues.

Flight letting the reins slip is not to the degree you would when left behind at a jump, but more like what you say of riding with longer rein to encourage more energy and thoroughness. The slipping of the reins is done based on the feel of what is happening under you as a rider. If I feel that the horse is losing energy or is struggling with the movement the first thing I will do will be to let the reins slip just a bit to allow more freedom in the head and neck of the horse encouraging the horse and allowing the horse more freedom of movement.

I'm sorry I am struggling to be coherent today with my thoughts.

No, I don't ride one handed. It would be counterproductive in trying to make my horse straight.
I do however, often give the inside rein to test bend/honesty in the outside rein and inside leg.

khall wrote:I have a question for those of you posting on this thread: do you ever ride one handed? Riding one handed is a very good tool to show you as a rider how much we can block our horses and ride in compression. Riding with too long of a rein is not one of my issues.

I ride one handed a little bit each ride. I'm not sure I understand what you mean about it showing blocking and riding in compression. It shows that you have control of the shoulders and don't need reins to steer. I believe you ought to be able to make turns one handed before you ride in a double. The closer together the reins are held, the straight the horse has to be. Super riding in that video.

musical comedy wrote: I ride one handed a little bit each ride. ..It shows that you have control of the shoulders and don't need reins to steer.

I also ride one handed some of most rides. Like MC says, for me it is a test of straightness and shoulder control via the seat and legs. If I'm having straightness issues, I don't find that going one-handed really helps.

I also ride one handed to test equal contact straight, and seat to bit connection.

Yup to the question of riding one-handed.

khall wrote: The slipping of the reins is done based on the feel of what is happening under you as a rider. If I feel that the horse is losing energy or is struggling with the movement the first thing I will do will be to let the reins slip just a bit to allow more freedom in the head and neck of the horse encouraging the horse and allowing the horse more freedom of movement.

I'm sorry I am struggling to be coherent today with my thoughts.

Yes, then I do do this Mostly taught to me because I'm a puller backerer and first thing is to make sure I'm not holding in front.

Riding with one hand - just demonstrates to me that I like to ride too much with my hands. I can't keep my horse round (yet!) with one hand.

Exactly Flight! Both to slipping the rein and to riding one handed!

I watch videos like I shared to remind myself that riding well does not have to involve reins!

I have cried all morning, I am struggling with the loss of Mark, what a huge hole his death will leave in my life and in so many others lives.

Hugs for you Khall. Such a big loss personally and for your riding I'm sure.

Yes Flight, I lost a great friend and my riding mentor. Mark had more knowledge than any other horseman or trainer I knew or was ever exposed to. His background was varied but the underlying theme of his work was proper gymnastics and development of each horse. I am lucky to have had the time I did with Mark but so very sad that with his death, all of his deep knowledge has passed with him. All of his students have pieces of him that we are able to carry with us, but dang it I still had so much to learn from him! I am stunned and at a loss as is all of my regular riders that came to attend Mark's clinics here on my farm. It would have been 10 yrs this November when I first met Mark at a clinic site not far from my farm and 9 yrs this spring that I have hosted him at least 3 times a year. I also traveled to other states so that I could ride with Mark as much as I could catch up with him.

so sorry, again. how devastating.

So sorry for your loss khall. I can't imagine how you must be feeling.

I'm so very sorry. I can't imagine how his friends, family and students must feel. My heart goes out to all of those affected

My jump from training level to second level varied 4 years (2008 -2010 training level showing, 2011-first level, 2012 second level).

I don't think the jump was like crazy difficult because it all took quite a long time and at least 2-3 shows each year. I remember I insisted on showing second level that year and my trainer was kind of hinting that maybe it is not the time, but I thought what the heck, I am doing all that at home why not give it a try, besides I would get much less competitors in that class .

So I went and it all went well that I won the class during that show (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdYYpz7nzy4)

Lovely test ElaPe!!

orono wrote:Lovely test ElaPe!!

Thank you

I agree, nice ride ElaPe., and similar to the second level tests here. Without knowing your national tests it's hard to know if the jump to second is the same. Are your national tests similar i structure to the USA ones,. Are you showing on LI?

Very nice, ElaPe. And a nice addition to this thread, thanks for posting.

I love your mare and the working relationship you have with her. I noticed the train going by very close to the arena and also a couple of toddlers running right next to the arena but you and Mare were focused on the work. I will watch your test again (after I go feed breakfast to my nagging horses!).

Chisamba wrote:I agree, nice ride ElaPe., and similar to the second level tests here. Without knowing your national tests it's hard to know if the jump to second is the same. Are your national tests similar i structure to the USA ones,. Are you showing on LI?

Thank you Chisamba.
In Poland they have six different 2nd level tests plus two freestyle tests. So far I can see none of the USEF 2nd level tests contain half-pass - whereas some of the Polish ones do have half-pass.

Yes, I am at the moment showing in LI.

demi wrote:Very nice, ElaPe. And a nice addition to this thread, thanks for posting.

I love your mare and the working relationship you have with her. I noticed the train going by very close to the arena and also a couple of toddlers running right next to the arena but you and Mare were focused on the work. I will watch your test again (after I go feed breakfast to my nagging horses!).

Thank you Demi.

(oh no, there was no train there, fortunately, but on the first long wall she was looking at banners with ads and trying to go to the inside though)

I just saw the "train" out of the corner of my eye...now I see it was just a long silver horse trailer. I wondered about those flapping banners! And she did a little hiccup at the person sitting there as you entered at A. But a really nice test all around.