Notes from Jeremy Steinberg clinic

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piedmontfields
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Notes from Jeremy Steinberg clinic

Postby piedmontfields » Mon May 09, 2016 5:24 pm

I audited a Jeremy Steinberg clinic this weekend (and my local trainer rode my horse one day as a fill in when another pair pulled out). I really enjoyed his teaching and direct, fun, positive approach. I also felt that he was very patient with a wide variety of horses and riders and helped every pair make good improvements.

Some general notes:

A very big focus was on keeping the poll high enough that it is possible to access the hind legs for weight-carrying. He communicated this in a variety of ways, including an image of an electric wire at the point that your horse's nose should not go below. He suggested think of your seat/hand as "buzzing" like the hot wire when your horse dropped too low in front in order to get them up again.

He also provided a very nice explanation of the difference between compressing a horse (which is sometimes confused with collection) and getting a horse more on their hind legs/raising the wither. He said to think of an arc shape across the topline of the horse. When we compress, we can distort the arc in front (pulling the face in). But when we shift weight to the hind, we actually just move the arc "back". In real collection, the horse gains air time.

He encouraged taking the time to get the horse in the "zone", especially at canter, in order to loosen their backs. He noted that this could be 10-15 20 meter circles to get them into their "fuel-efficient yet active" canter zone. This process can have huge benefits for connection.

Similarly, with the younger or greener horse, he advised that we own the speed and the rhythm. Suppleness and relaxation come out of that, as does connection.

If your half halt didn't work, do a transition. Don't give your horse a second chance---teach your horse to respond to your half halt.

You are your horse's personal trainer. You may have to quietly antagonize them to challenge them to do more! Think of your horse as a sports car and your are their specialty mechanic. Tune them up!

The goal is to get your horse hot to both ends of the spectrum--both to the leg and to the half halt.

Teach your horse to live in the "no help" environment. Then if your horse ignores you, be sharp in your correction. Don't hold your horse up.

Notice that when we close a path of evasion to a horse, they tend to go to the other extreme. For example, "If I can't run away, then I'm going to back off and slow down." Don't buy it.

For flying changes, think about getting the hind leg further under the body, not bringing the front legs back. Think of the whole limb of the hind leg swinging like a pendulum. You can develop that swing and its reach. Use transitions in canter and canter walk to tune and work the lower back. Canter walk is rotating the power of canter to the walk with the rotation of the pelvis. Don't false-collect for this transition. Take the power of canter into the transition. If the flying change preparation goes outward, the change is lost. Energy needs to go upward. Energize the canter a lot. You might need to tap the croup every other stride in preparation. Then you can throw in the change when they are awake and catch them a bit off guard. Make the changes no big deal--just related a very active canter. Note that discrepancy in lateral work from side to side will show up in the flying changes. Use lateral work reps to improve strength. In walk canter and trot walk, we want the transition with a very quiet neck and active hind. Notice what your horse does in these transition. The smoother you have these transitions, the better for the flying changes.

Your seat can be a canter metronome. In canter, accessing looseness is related to activating the jump in the canter.

Turn on haunches/walk pirouettes are a good low pressure way to wake up the hind.

With shoulder in, firm the outside rein and do not give it away. Keep the hind from swinging out to avoid bend. Think instead of inside hind and nose getting closer together. This way we get a contraction in the belly. Adding angle is optional. In haunches in you can't get too much angle. If it feels good and easy, add more! In shoulder in, you can have too much angle relative to bend.

To help put a long, resistant to being compact horse together, use multiple 10 m circles in different directions down the centerline. With each change in direction, take a little rein.

Power pushes the range of motion. This generates looseness. Power should not be about "adrenalizing" the horse. For lengthening work, do a few laps in a medium gait to "find the cruise" option in your horse. Cheer them on and tell them they can do it! Don't limit yourself to just short diagonals.

Remember----you are not supposed to watch dressage on the edge of your seat, awaiting a disaster!

Some notes on Emi's lesson:

-Jeremy totally called Emi out on her habits of not really being connected and active (and both my trainer and I fall for her game, as she feels pretty good even when she is not working that hard!!). As he noted, how could a horse descended from bull fighting horses (Lusitano) and war horses (Trakehners) pretend to be such a wimp! This was a pretty hard working lesson (though totally fair) and there were real improvements in Emi's gaits and connection as it went on.

-In general, this horse is always going to be "on the bit" enough--the challenge is getting her to *draw* on the bit while activating her hind legs to fill it up. Use the whip on the croup to encourage activity. Roundness is based on the back and on the hind legs, not the neck.

-When you feel her front legs get stuck underneath her, get her head up and her butt in gear. Always think front legs and neck further up and out. Neck position is about making sure energy can go the right place.

-When Emi goes behind contact, she also goes behind the leg (deactivates hind) in order to avoid real work. Don't wait for her to use her back (if you are waiting for a change, she is already using other, wrong muscles). Force her to use the right muscles.

-Remember, with a horse who doesn't want to connect, do not do long and low. They haven't earned it.

-Remember that the walk is the last gait to improve in connection (first canter, then trot).
Last edited by piedmontfields on Mon May 09, 2016 8:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Rosie B
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Re: Notes from Jeremy Steinberg clinic

Postby Rosie B » Mon May 09, 2016 6:46 pm

Thanks for this fabulous report!!! Lots to think about, here.

I would have *loved* to see the clinic. I'm a huge JS fan. So glad you got to see it, and even better, watch Emi being ridden!

I find this particularly relevant right now:
"Remember, with a horse who doesn't want to connect, do not do long and low. They haven't earned it."

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Re: Notes from Jeremy Steinberg clinic

Postby piedmontfields » Mon May 09, 2016 7:17 pm

Glad you liked the notes. I was very impressed with his teaching and his patient manner.

Another tip Jeremy had on stretching:
Do it in sitting trot so you can control and evaluate how it is going (keep your horse honestly motoring out to the bit). Then bring the horse back up after the stretch. Is the horse better or worse? That is your clue about how useful the stretch was for your horse.

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Re: Notes from Jeremy Steinberg clinic

Postby Rosie B » Mon May 09, 2016 10:02 pm

Thanks for that - very interesting. I noticed in his videos with young horses on his youtube channel he sits the stretchy trot. It's interesting to hear his viewpoint on why.

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Re: Notes from Jeremy Steinberg clinic

Postby Flight » Tue May 10, 2016 12:28 am

Thankyou! This is great reading :)
It reinforces a lot of the stuff I'm doing now with my new instructor.

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Re: Notes from Jeremy Steinberg clinic

Postby bailey » Tue May 10, 2016 3:31 am

Another thank you! Really helpful.

The calmer I am, the stronger I am.

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Re: Notes from Jeremy Steinberg clinic

Postby HafDressage » Tue May 10, 2016 4:20 am

Great post! Some interesting tidbits here. Thanks for posting. :) :)

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Re: Notes from Jeremy Steinberg clinic

Postby mari » Tue May 10, 2016 7:15 am

Thanks so much for your notes! One or two things I'm making notes of to carry forward in my riding :)
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Re: Notes from Jeremy Steinberg clinic

Postby demi » Tue May 10, 2016 1:44 pm

Thanks for your good notes, Piedmont. I copied them into my own daily training plans highlight some stuff that I am working on at the moment. Some of the highligts for me:

Big focus on keeping poll high....

Take the time to get the horse in "the Zone"...could take as much a 10-15 20m circles to get them into their "fuel efficient yet active" canter zone..,HUGE benefits for connectiion...

Power pushes the range of motion....Power should not be about "adrenalizing" the horse.

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Re: Notes from Jeremy Steinberg clinic

Postby demi » Tue May 10, 2016 1:45 pm

There is a lot in your notes to "spin off from". Maybe later tonight. Off to ride now.

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Re: Notes from Jeremy Steinberg clinic

Postby cb06 » Tue May 10, 2016 3:02 pm

Great notes, Thanks!

piedmontfields wrote:-When Emi goes behind contact, she also goes behind the leg (deactivates hind) in order to avoid real work. Don't wait for her to use her back (if you are waiting for a change, she is already using other, wrong muscles). Force her to use the right muscles.

-Remember, with a horse who doesn't want to connect, do not do long and low. They haven't earned it.


...I thought this was particularly interesting and an often misunderstood concept that even good trainers/instructors approach in a not terribly effective way....a topic ripe for further discussion. :)
FWIW, in my experience, I think JS is correct in this approach.

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Re: Notes from Jeremy Steinberg clinic

Postby Moutaineer » Wed May 11, 2016 1:21 am

Thanks for this. Reinforces what we are working on with our new trainer, so that makes me pretty happy :)

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Re: Notes from Jeremy Steinberg clinic

Postby Rosie B » Wed May 11, 2016 10:52 am

Ok so the last two rides I've taken this to heart:

For lengthening work, do a few laps in a medium gait to "find the cruise" option in your horse. Cheer them on and tell them they can do it! Don't limit yourself to just short diagonals.


And HOLY CRAP. Bliss has discovered a whole new gear in his trot. Last night we were FLYING around the arena and it felt like we weren't touching the ground. I don't think he even knew he could trot like that. lol. And then he was hotter to the leg and it was like he realized when I put my leg on he can really GO!! Wonderful feeling!!

Thanks again! :)

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Re: Notes from Jeremy Steinberg clinic

Postby piedmontfields » Wed May 11, 2016 12:16 pm

Rosie, that is a cool update. I liked your last video---and could really imagine you using an "electrifying" half halt with your seat or hand to bring him up when he gets too low (which is just occasionally).

I am still processing this clinic. My main conclusion is that I want to commit to incredibly basic pure work and do it thoroughly for a few weeks--and then look at what is changing. Had a great ride the other night by working through the canter cruise. I think there is actually hope to change our relationship to connection!

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Re: Notes from Jeremy Steinberg clinic

Postby Palogal5 » Fri May 13, 2016 1:28 pm

Great summary! Wish I could have watched all the rides. Thanks for sharing some things I missed.

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Re: Notes from Jeremy Steinberg clinic

Postby mattm » Sat May 14, 2016 5:54 pm

Interesting comments, thank you. Particularly have taken note of the not asking for long and low before connection is achieved - I think I can hold my hands up and say I probably waste too much time at the beginning of a session stretching out pointlessly when doing a bit of truly connected work and then stretching is far more effective.

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Re: Notes from Jeremy Steinberg clinic

Postby piedmontfields » Sat May 14, 2016 11:56 pm

mattm wrote: I think I can hold my hands up and say I probably waste too much time at the beginning of a session stretching out pointlessly when doing a bit of truly connected work and then stretching is far more effective.


Hey, I've been there, too. Now I might a few laps on a long rein at walk and then it's on the bit. No stretchy stretch until we've earned it.

So far, I'm about 5 rides into really using the canter warm-up (at least 5 minutes per lead at a time, often more) to help us improve connection. Overall, I am feeling a lot of positive shifts in us both. I also like how it is changing our c-t-c and c-w-c to being much more through and on the hind leg.

To show you that we do do more than canter in circles in the arena, here are some shots from our work tonight in the hay fields. Emi is looking left and right for turkeys hiding in the grass! (we almost stepped on one a few weeks ago). I love her radar ears!
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Re: Notes from Jeremy Steinberg clinic

Postby kande50 » Sun May 15, 2016 10:00 am

piedmontfields wrote:
Hey, I've been there, too. Now I might a few laps on a long rein at walk and then it's on the bit. No stretchy stretch until we've earned it.


This seems like such an unhealthy idea: that a horse has to earn the right to be more comfortable for short periods of time. :(

I find it especially distasteful given the fact that whether the horse can earn the opportunity to stretch (something I think we should be encouraging him to do often) depends on the rider's skill rather than the horse's, because the horse already knows how to do it.

My own attitude is that horses give us enough already, and we should be helping them to find the right answers instead of setting up confrontational relationships in which we want to make it their fault when we can't get what we want out of them.

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Re: Notes from Jeremy Steinberg clinic

Postby Chisamba » Sun May 15, 2016 11:35 am

kande50 wrote:
piedmontfields wrote:
Hey, I've been there, too. Now I might a few laps on a long rein at walk and then it's on the bit. No stretchy stretch until we've earned it.


This seems like such an unhealthy idea: that a horse has to earn the right to be more comfortable for short periods of time. :(

I find it especially distasteful given the fact that whether the horse can earn the opportunity to stretch (something I think we should be encouraging him to do often) depends on the rider's skill rather than the horse's, because the horse already knows how to do it.

My own attitude is that horses give us enough already, and we should be helping them to find the right answers instead of setting up confrontational relationships in which we want to make it their fault when we can't get what we want out of them.


It depends on definitions. Stretching in contact and in balance is the result of a correct connection, which is earned . I have seen a lot of horses barreling around on a long rein, out of balance and on the forehand. I have seen video with riders and trainers as some sort of Nirvana.

It is not, it neither rewards the horse, not improves it.

A true balanced stretch, where a horse reaches forward but maintains balance without over weighting the inside nor the forehand is most often achieved as the result of balance and connection. When the horse shows that it is carrying itself equally on all four legs, by being equal in the reins and carrying with suppleness over the back, then it will be able to stretch in a manner that is really rewarding. Why? Because it has earned it.

Think of it like this. I could roll out of bed in the morning and stretch, yep that feels pretty good, or I could stroll around do a few things then stretch, or I could warm up on the treadmill, do my phisiotherapy exercises, then stretch...which stretch us going to be more effective and rewarding, yandindeed. the one i have earned more. Not only will it feel better, it will be more effective and healthier with less chance of damage.

The same is true of horses.

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Re: Notes from Jeremy Steinberg clinic

Postby khall » Sun May 15, 2016 3:33 pm

Amen chisamba, stretching is not easy and actually needs to be built up to be able to do correctly with a horse. Now riding on a light contact in a more "natural" frame is a different story. I think in the end the horse needs to be able to do them all but it takes preparation and correct development to be able to carry collection and to correctly stretch.

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Re: Notes from Jeremy Steinberg clinic

Postby kande50 » Sun May 15, 2016 8:15 pm

Chisamba wrote:
It depends on definitions. Stretching in contact and in balance is the result of a correct connection, which is earned . I have seen a lot of horses barreling around on a long rein, out of balance and on the forehand. I have seen video with riders and trainers as some sort of Nirvana.

It is not, it neither rewards the horse, not improves it.


Not sure about that, as I would think that allowing the horse to come back on his forehand to stretch (the way horses are built to move) would be much more rewarding for him than teaching him to maintain a more collected balance while lowering his neck, because lowering the neck while maintaining a degree of collection seems like it would take a lot more effort so would be much less rewarding?

But that's not what bothers me about the idea that the horse should have to earn the opportunity to stretch. What bothers me is that stretching seems like something that we should be doing frequently as a preventative measure so that our horses don't end up damaged, so IMO, shouldn't be something the horse needs to earn.

Think of it like this. I could roll out of bed in the morning and stretch, yep that feels pretty good, or I could stroll around do a few things then stretch, or I could warm up on the treadmill, do my phisiotherapy exercises, then stretch...which stretch us going to be more effective and rewarding, yandindeed. the one i have earned more. Not only will it feel better, it will be more effective and healthier with less chance of damage.

The same is true of horses.


I think it's true that the greater the aversive the more rewarding the release from that aversive, but why be stingy with rewards when that's what teaches the horse what we want? IOW, no need to wait until after the treadmill and exercises to stretch when you can stretch when you get out of bed (your reward for getting out of bed), stretch after you get moving (your reward for getting going), and then stretch again after the treadmill and exercises (a bigger reward for a bigger effort)?

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Re: Notes from Jeremy Steinberg clinic

Postby Chisamba » Mon May 16, 2016 1:44 am

Horses seek the contact once they understand it. Sincev they do not seek aversives, I do not think contact is aversive.

In fact horses become accustomed to the saddle but they never seen them seek it, so it is less aversive than a saddle. Jmho

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Re: Notes from Jeremy Steinberg clinic

Postby khall » Mon May 16, 2016 3:18 am

There is nothing adversive about riding in balance which is what we strive to do with our horses. Horses naturally can and do "collect" themselves. Dressage is just about enhancing their natural movement by correctly developing and educating them through proper work. In fact I would go so far to say that the stretching https://www.google.com/search?q=stretch ... VJFsJgM%3A seen in dressage tests is more un-natural than true collection. Now free walk on long rein, yes, that is very natural, stretching in the trot, not something I see them do by themselves without input from a rider/handler. A more neutral or level carriage is something seen and is how horses should be started US, with gradual introduction of bending lines and lateral work to develop the horse's natural ability to balance on their haunches. It takes time though to strengthen a horse to properly carry themselves in a stretchy trot since the stretchy trot should still have elements of self carriage and balance in it, not to run around on the forehand.

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Re: Notes from Jeremy Steinberg clinic

Postby kande50 » Mon May 16, 2016 9:30 am

Chisamba wrote:Horses seek the contact once they understand it. Sincev they do not seek aversives, I do not think contact is aversive.


But do they ever "seek" the contact if other aversives aren't used to motivate them to "seek" it?

If I put a bit with side reins on a horse and leave him out in his pen where he's calm, will he eventually take a contact on his own?

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Re: Notes from Jeremy Steinberg clinic

Postby Chisamba » Mon May 16, 2016 10:13 am

I had not though about it, Khall, but you are correct, I have not seen horses stretch themselves in the v trot.

A neutral level carriage, yes. I also start horses in a neutral carriage and warm them up into balance with circles and bending lines.

I usually ask for adjustability, in length of frame and length of stride keeping as much as possible, the same tempo. I I this in all the gaits, this allows for stretching as a regular part of riding. If the horse, or myself needs a break, I go to the buckle a few times during the ride.



I

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Re: Notes from Jeremy Steinberg clinic

Postby kande50 » Mon May 16, 2016 10:19 am

khall wrote:There is nothing adversive about riding in balance which is what we strive to do with our horses. Horses naturally can and do "collect" themselves.


Just because a behavior is natural doesn't mean that there were no aversives involved.

The definition of an aversive is any stimulus that the subject will work to avoid. One of the examples I like is the full bladder aversive. The bladder fills up (antecedent), the pressure becomes uncomfortable (aversive), the horse pees (behavior), the horse is rewarded (consequence).

In fact I would go so far to say that the stretching seen in dressage tests is more un-natural than true collection.


I think it probably is, because I'm pretty sure that the easiest way for a horse to collect is with his neck up, so staying collected while lowering his neck would be more difficult for him.

Now free walk on long rein, yes, that is very natural, stretching in the trot, not something I see them do by themselves without input from a rider/handler.


It's something we don't see often because most riders won't allow it, and especially not at the trot, but horses will move their necks around on their own when given the freedom to do so. I spend a lot of time trail riding on a loose rein, and while most of their stretching and bending is to grab a bite, sniff manure piles, get a closer look at the footing, or look around, they'll also lower or bend their necks for no apparent reason, which may very well be just to stretch.

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Re: Notes from Jeremy Steinberg clinic

Postby khall » Mon May 16, 2016 1:09 pm

kande I am talking about horses at freedom, no rider, you do not see them stretch out and down with their neck at the trot like is asked in the dressage tests. The only time I have seen it is with a stallion patrolling manure piles or when he snakes his head driving the horses. If they are at liberty with no handler interaction they will stay neutral in their neck in movement with level top line or when excited show collection with elevated poll, yes they will bend and scratch and swat flies but that is momentarily not for any length of time.

But riding in balance is not avoidance by the horse, it is acceptance of the aids allowing the rider input into their way of going. I liken good balanced riding like a good trained dancing couple, each carries themselves with balance and fluidity with one leading the dance and the other accepting the guidance.

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Re: Notes from Jeremy Steinberg clinic

Postby kande50 » Mon May 16, 2016 2:18 pm

khall wrote:kande I am talking about horses at freedom, no rider, you do not see them stretch out and down with their neck at the trot like is asked in the dressage tests.


Not that often, because if a horse who has a choice wants to stretch they'll most often come back to walk to do it. That, and they have no reason to need to stretch frequently on their own, because they're not required to stay in one position for any longer than it's comfortable for them to do so.

I think when I most often see it is when the herd trots out to pasture and they lower their necks and "come in for a landing" to eat grass. I'll also see it when they're running the fence and their necks go up when they're looking out and then down to better see the footing, or perhaps the bottom of the fence so that they can run closer to it without running into it? They also do it when they run through shallow ditches, I think to see the footing more clearly?

But riding in balance is not avoidance by the horse, it is acceptance of the aids allowing the rider input into their way of going.


"Acceptance of the aids" is just sani-speak for negative reinforcement, which is avoidance of aversives. We train horses with primarily negative reinforcement (pressure and release), then maintain the behaviors with (hopefully) the threat of aversives rather than the continuous use of them.

I liken good balanced riding like a good trained dancing couple, each carries themselves with balance and fluidity with one leading the dance and the other accepting the guidance.


It's not really though, because only one partner is there by choice. Technically speaking, I'd say it's more like a master-slave relationship, where one partner is in charge and the other is required to participate. That doesn't mean that the master is necessarily hard on the slave, but IMO, it just more accurately characterizes the relationship.

I realize that everyone likes to think they have a nice partnership with their horse, but when one partner owns the other and is free to buy or sell him at will, and can use bits, whips and spurs to motivate him to obey, it's very hard for me to buy into the idea that it's a partnership.

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Re: Notes from Jeremy Steinberg clinic

Postby demi » Mon May 16, 2016 2:47 pm

I’ve been reading the comments on “long and low” that were sparked by Piedmont’s notes and I really appreciated everyone’s contributions. This is a good board with some diverse opinions. The comments have helped me expand my thinking and then after re-reading the original notes, I want to re-focus.

What I took away from the notes is that he was teaching how to gain a beautiful connection with your horse.( And he really does show some beautiful connection with the horses he rides.) I think it’s important to keep his comment about long and low in the context of his whole clinic, and to remember that he was specifically addressing a horse which didn't want to connect. He said:

Remember, with a horse who doesn't want to connect, do not do long and low. They haven't earned it.”

Throughout Piedmont’s notes (thank you again, P, for sharing) Jeremy made it clear that he was teaching a way to supple, relaxed, smooth connection. That’s the way I strive to connect with my own horse (and I believe all of us on this board feel the same way). Supple, relaxed, smooth. From there comes the power. When I get it through to the horse, she really understands it and begins to offer harmony and unity on her own. Jeremy teaches how to get there with a horse and the following excerpts from the clinic notes are what I want to keep CLEARLY in the front of my riding brain:

the difference between compressing a horse (which is sometimes confused with collection) and getting a horse more on their hind legs/raising the wither.


He encouraged taking the time to get the horse in the "zone", especially at canter, in order to loosen their backs….. This process can have huge benefits for connection.

he advised that we own the speed and the rhythm. Suppleness and relaxation come out of that, as does connection.

…the smoother you have these transitions, the better for the flying changes.

to "find the cruise" option in your horse. Cheer them on and tell them they can do it!

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Re: Notes from Jeremy Steinberg clinic

Postby kande50 » Mon May 16, 2016 4:01 pm

demi wrote:I think it’s important to keep his comment about long and low in the context of his whole clinic, and to remember that he was specifically addressing a horse which didn't want to connect.


True that we don't have context, and what he may have actually meant was something along the lines of, "Don't let him stretch yet, because he's very close to getting it and I'd like to see a better connection for a bit longer before you give him a break". Although his other comments don't lead me to believe that that's what he meant. :(

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Re: Notes from Jeremy Steinberg clinic

Postby khall » Tue May 17, 2016 7:37 pm

kande have you ever lunged a horse with no side reins and have them "come on the bit"? That is self carriage at its best and yes it can happen when a horse is properly developed and in balance. That is why I like to lunge without side reins to see what I really have when working a horse on the lunge line. What I have found is that as my horses develop their natural carriage goes from the more level top line to an elevated collected top line. I do use the whip as a driving aid to create the energy needed for the horse to carry themselves in a collected manner but do not need the bit or reins of any sort for their head and neck to become raised and elevated. In fact I have found the even with my lunge line their carriage is best when there is a drape in the line and not held strongly. Can be done at liberty as well, just take a gander at Karen Rohlf's work.

I can some what understand your views on ownership, but I disagree that it is master slave relationship. I want a partner to ride, not to dominate. I do direct them when US but it is with the idea of improving the horse's well being and beauty, not to force them into slugging around an arena.

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Re: Notes from Jeremy Steinberg clinic

Postby capstone » Tue May 17, 2016 7:41 pm

kande50 wrote:True that we don't have context, and what he may have actually meant was something along the lines of, "Don't let him stretch yet, because he's very close to getting it and I'd like to see a better connection for a bit longer before you give him a break". Although his other comments don't lead me to believe that that's what he meant. :(

My impression was that the stretching being discussed was not to "give the horse a break" but to further gymnasticize him in a different way.

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Re: Notes from Jeremy Steinberg clinic

Postby piedmontfields » Tue May 17, 2016 9:25 pm

Not to speak for the clinician, but the understanding I took away was this:

JS noted that too many people think they are training their horse to be balanced and happy athletes by letting them "stretch" and move around on their forward most of the time under saddle. This actually does not help the horse develop the strength and balance to carry a rider successfully, nor does it help the horse shift more carrying weight to the hind end---both of which help the overall soundness of the horse under saddle.

If you are curious about Jeremy Steinberg's training, I suggest you look at some of his young horse videos on YouTube. You'll see that he asks his horses to move in good balance; when he stretches them, he is careful to maintain connection--not to just dump them on their forehand (a common error in the name of "stretching."). He also gives them break time on a long rein in walk.

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Re: Notes from Jeremy Steinberg clinic

Postby kande50 » Wed May 18, 2016 1:03 pm

capstone wrote:My impression was that the stretching being discussed was not to "give the horse a break" but to further gymnasticize him in a different way.


Why would he say that the horse hasn't earned it if there was no reward in it for the horse, anyway?

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Re: Notes from Jeremy Steinberg clinic

Postby musical comedy » Wed May 18, 2016 5:12 pm

He encouraged taking the time to get the horse in the "zone", especially at canter, in order to loosen their backs. He noted that this could be 10-15 20 meter circles to get them into their "fuel-efficient yet active" canter zone. This process can have huge benefits for connection.
I just don't know how to feel about this. Who am I to disagree with a pro of his caliber. That is a lot of cantering, and in the other thread you speak of cantering a total of about 12-15 minutes total. If you have ever shown a 3rd or 4th level test, which is only 6 minutes or so long and only half of it canter, it's not easy to keep a horse together in quality work for that long a time. Maybe it's just me and my weakness...dunno. Of course, one canter for a very long time, like on a hunter pace, but the horse is really not going to be engaged, straight, supple and all that. Whatever gait or exercise, I want to abandon it once I feel I'm losing the quality of the work.

My horse is semi-advance, but older, so I am cautious about what I do and how much I do. I don't think he (and I) could hold it together for 15 minutes of canter. It concerns me a bit that someone might try this exercise before they or their horse is ready, just because Jeremy recommended it.

Same goes for the poll high thing. While I do understand his point, any focus on poll high often gets people losing the roundness and over the back in an effort to keep poll high. The other thing is, while I think JS is a beautiful rider, it bothers me that he gets training from Paul Belasik. Why he does that baffles me.

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Re: Notes from Jeremy Steinberg clinic

Postby Koolkat » Wed May 18, 2016 5:59 pm

capstone wrote:
kande50 wrote:True that we don't have context, and what he may have actually meant was something along the lines of, "Don't let him stretch yet, because he's very close to getting it and I'd like to see a better connection for a bit longer before you give him a break". Although his other comments don't lead me to believe that that's what he meant. :(

My impression was that the stretching being discussed was not to "give the horse a break" but to further gymnasticize him in a different way.


My instructor expected the horse to stay connected in the "long" work, it is simply playing the accordion and "gives the horse a break" by using the muscles in a different way. The degree to which a horse can stretch and stay connected is a function of it's strength/level and a TL horse can not carry a long frame and stay connected/balanced. A true break is walking on a long rein.

I have seen horses stretch at liberty and stay connected, but they're not just plodding around, they are animated and engaged. I've also seen a true extended trots at liberty, the amount of ground covering was amazing (and no toe flicking, either, LOL).

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Re: Notes from Jeremy Steinberg clinic

Postby piedmontfields » Wed May 18, 2016 6:01 pm

musical comedy, I think questioning pros and training strategies is a very reasonable thing---especially with the well-being of your own horse in mind.

"Whatever gait or exercise, I want to abandon it once I feel I'm losing the quality of the work."
I think I know what you mean. However, I also want to learn to quickly recover the quality of the work, without abandoning the exercise. I think I have spent too much time in the past thinking "Oh, we're losing it. Better get out of this gait/exercise" instead of making the necessary adjustments to stay in the gait/exercise with improved quality. I am also doing this longer canter work with a horse that feels capable, in fitness and level of training.

FWIW, Steinberg's discussion of "canter zone" benefits reminded me a lot of what I've heard from Charles de Kunffy and his longtime student JJ Tate: "Trot breaks the horse down, canter builds the horse up."

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Re: Notes from Jeremy Steinberg clinic

Postby kande50 » Wed May 18, 2016 6:14 pm

khall wrote:kande have you ever lunged a horse with no side reins and have them "come on the bit"? That is self carriage at its best and yes it can happen when a horse is properly developed and in balance.


I was free lungeing my horse outside last week because he was a little too "up" for me and I wanted him to get a good look at the circus across the road before I got back on. So I had the reins tied to the front of the saddle so they were long, but couldn't fall down his neck if he put his head down.

What struck me when I was watching the video is how much better he looked trotting around free than he did when I got on and picked up a contact. :-(

That however, may simply be a personal preferences that I've developed?

I'll post video on a new thread if I can find it.

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Re: Notes from Jeremy Steinberg clinic

Postby Ponichiwa » Wed May 18, 2016 7:37 pm

kande50 wrote:
khall wrote:kande have you ever lunged a horse with no side reins and have them "come on the bit"? That is self carriage at its best and yes it can happen when a horse is properly developed and in balance.


I was free lungeing my horse outside last week because he was a little too "up" for me and I wanted him to get a good look at the circus across the road before I got back on. So I had the reins tied to the front of the saddle so they were long, but couldn't fall down his neck if he put his head down.

What struck me when I was watching the video is how much better he looked trotting around free than he did when I got on and picked up a contact. :-(

That however, may simply be a personal preferences that I've developed?

I'll post video on a new thread if I can find it.


The art of dressage is riding so well that your horse moves as well (or better) under saddle as at liberty. It's easy for us, as hand-centric thinkers, to focus on the contact part of the equation as the source of the problem. But that ignores the vast majority of your aids.

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Re: Notes from Jeremy Steinberg clinic

Postby kande50 » Thu May 19, 2016 10:20 am

Ponichiwa wrote:
The art of dressage is riding so well that your horse moves as well (or better) under saddle as at liberty. It's easy for us, as hand-centric thinkers, to focus on the contact part of the equation as the source of the problem. But that ignores the vast majority of your aids.


I think the problem is that "better" is a subjective assessment.

For example, look at all the disagreement about the way the fei rules are currently interpreted, with some apparently preferring the flashy, btv style of riding while others dislike it.

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Re: Notes from Jeremy Steinberg clinic

Postby Chisamba » Thu May 19, 2016 1:17 pm

Does a human athlete look as good carrying a back pack. If you think it's the contact, you are missing the impact of weight and seat.

And yesterday I had my son video Acacia,. When she came on the contract her trot is way more balanced and elegant than when she is at liberty.
Last edited by Chisamba on Thu May 19, 2016 7:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Notes from Jeremy Steinberg clinic

Postby Ponichiwa » Thu May 19, 2016 3:21 pm

kande50 wrote:
Ponichiwa wrote:The art of dressage is riding so well that your horse moves as well (or better) under saddle as at liberty. It's easy for us, as hand-centric thinkers, to focus on the contact part of the equation as the source of the problem. But that ignores the vast majority of your aids.


I think the problem is that "better" is a subjective assessment.


I was referring to this:

kande50 wrote:What struck me when I was watching the video is how much better he looked trotting around free than he did when I got on and picked up a contact. :-(


I don't care what the riders at FEI are doing. YOU said your horse moves better; I'm saying that the goal of riding is to make a better (freer, etc.) moving horse under saddle, burdened by the weight of rider and tack, than at liberty (or on the longe).

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Re: Notes from Jeremy Steinberg clinic

Postby tlkidding » Thu May 19, 2016 4:33 pm

musical comedy wrote:
He encouraged taking the time to get the horse in the "zone", especially at canter, in order to loosen their backs. He noted that this could be 10-15 20 meter circles to get them into their "fuel-efficient yet active" canter zone. This process can have huge benefits for connection.
I just don't know how to feel about this. Who am I to disagree with a pro of his caliber. That is a lot of cantering, and in the other thread you speak of cantering a total of about 12-15 minutes total. If you have ever shown a 3rd or 4th level test, which is only 6 minutes or so long and only half of it canter, it's not easy to keep a horse together in quality work for that long a time. Maybe it's just me and my weakness...dunno. Of course, one canter for a very long time, like on a hunter pace, but the horse is really not going to be engaged, straight, supple and all that. Whatever gait or exercise, I want to abandon it once I feel I'm losing the quality of the work.


FYI - it's not 15 minutes of cantering, it's 15 each 20-meter circles, which is probably about 5 minutes of cantering.

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Re: Notes from Jeremy Steinberg clinic

Postby piedmontfields » Thu May 19, 2016 4:51 pm

BTW, here is a video of JS working one of his young mares:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwEm5TL ... e=youtu.be

You'll notice a fair bit of stretching, but he is specific when he does it and what he does afterwards.

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Re: Notes from Jeremy Steinberg clinic

Postby musical comedy » Thu May 19, 2016 5:21 pm

tlkidding wrote:FYI - it's not 15 minutes of cantering, it's 15 each 20-meter circles, which is probably about 5 minutes of cantering.
Piedmont wrote on the training thread:
1. Pick a lead and commit to at least 15 20 meter circles of canter, going large occasionally if you like. Watch how your horse's canter and back changes over the course of those circles (it is pretty dramatic for my mare as she starts to let go and actually swing her inside hind leg).
2. Then start adding in some trot-canter-transitions. At this point you could easily be at the 5 minute mark on this lead.
3. Then transition from trot to walk and then add in some walk canters and canter walks. Keep the canter nice and active. I bet you will be up to 7-8 minutes at this point.
4. Take a walk break (as long as needed for horse/rider).
5. Repeat on the other lead.


That would be 8 minutes one lead and 8 minutes the other lead with a walk break between them...if my math is correct. Hey, whatever works for ya. I just happen to be careful not to jump on every exercise a clinician or trainer recommends because it's not a one size fits all situation. Not every horse is ready for cantering for that long while keeping balance, and this recommendation to do medium trot for long laps isn't appropriate (imo) for a horse until it has a reliable half-halt between the working gait and the medium.

While I'm at it, I'll add that the comment from JJ Tate/Dekunffy that the trot breaks a horse down is something I'd like to know more about. I guess everyone here agrees with it since it wasn't questioned.

To show just how different highly respected trainers disagree, this is a quote from Steffen Peters:

SteffenPeters wrote:I never really work a horse for longer than four or five minutes. I want to take a quick break, and then we go again. Any of you who’ve worked out know how much a break of 30 seconds can help. It gets some oxygen back into the muscles. –Steffen Peters

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Re: Notes from Jeremy Steinberg clinic

Postby Moutaineer » Thu May 19, 2016 6:48 pm

I've always been very careful with mediums and extensions--I remember Kyra K saying that she felt that, like jumps, horses only had a certain number of extensions in them.

However, I've probably been too careful as my mediums have always had clunker scores, so I've been playing with them cautiously in the past couple of weeks in an attempt to improve them without beating my horse up.

My recent experiments have led me to truly believe that the medium and it's associated transition is easy for a horse that is truly collected to start with, and very hard on the horse if it starts out in less than ideal collection and balance. (This is assuming that the horse is fit enough to sustain the work.)

And yes, I'm with Steffen on this, as long as one does enough sustained work to build up the strength and aerobic fitness required to do the work. 5 minutes is quite a long time. I'm betting a lot of us middle aged AAs riding on our own aren't doing that between breaks :)

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Re: Notes from Jeremy Steinberg clinic

Postby piedmontfields » Thu May 19, 2016 7:01 pm

musical comedy wrote:
Piedmont wrote on the training thread:
1. Pick a lead and commit to at least 15 20 meter circles of canter, going large occasionally if you like. Watch how your horse's canter and back changes over the course of those circles (it is pretty dramatic for my mare as she starts to let go and actually swing her inside hind leg).
2. Then start adding in some trot-canter-transitions. At this point you could easily be at the 5 minute mark on this lead.
3. Then transition from trot to walk and then add in some walk canters and canter walks. Keep the canter nice and active. I bet you will be up to 7-8 minutes at this point.
4. Take a walk break (as long as needed for horse/rider).
5. Repeat on the other lead.


That would be 8 minutes one lead and 8 minutes the other lead with a walk break between them...if my math is correct. [/quote]

Your math is not bad, musical comedy, but your reading is worse! ;) Notice that there are transitions to trot and walk within the 7-8 minutes of working on a particular lead. These are real breaks for the horse, similar to the 30 second breaks Peters references as being very significant. I think changes of frame within a gait can also provide a real break for the muscles.

I don't think this is the only way; however, I was just struck that upping the work load in my horse's case seems to be quite helpful in a number of ways. I was also thinking about the different approach eventers seems to have to canter work (they often ride TBs and TBxs who love to canter, and they tend to do a lot of canter in their dressage work outs).

I do tend to agree with the point that a horse has only so many big extensions in them.

We should do another thread on the trot/canter topic. JS actually wrote a bit about this topic somewhere. And I know de Kunffy wrote quite a bit about this topic in the The Athletic Development of the Dressage Horse.

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Re: Notes from Jeremy Steinberg clinic

Postby tlkidding » Thu May 19, 2016 7:47 pm

So I don't "know" Steffen Peters, but I believe he's saying he doesn't work a horse for longer than a few minute in collection, or at the top end of their ability. So I would say if you are in a warm up and there's a lot of tension, go ahead and canter for 7-8 minutes if that is something that helps your horse.
Janet Foy either posted or wrote something about this too - collection is like weight lifting and we would only lift weights for a few minutes at a time then take a break. Do the same for your horse.

As for the long medium trots, if I'm going to do those I'll do them out on the trail where I have a long straight line at a slight incline. I think taking corners, especially in a small arena, at a big trot can be risky.

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Re: Notes from Jeremy Steinberg clinic

Postby kande50 » Fri May 20, 2016 10:35 am

Ponichiwa wrote:
I don't care what the riders at FEI are doing.


That was simply an example of how different people have different ideas of what's better. Another example would be that given a set amount of time, some will think it's better to get the details more fluent and then work on getting more later, while others will think it's better to get more now and then work on refining it later.

YOU said your horse moves better; I'm saying that the goal of riding is to make a better (freer, etc.) moving horse under saddle, burdened by the weight of rider and tack, than at liberty (or on the longe).


Do you think it's even possible to make a horse move "better" under saddle than when he's free?

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Re: Notes from Jeremy Steinberg clinic

Postby kande50 » Fri May 20, 2016 10:49 am

Chisamba wrote:Does a human athlete look as good carrying a back pack. If you think it's the contact, you are missing the impact of weight and seat.


A ballet dancer would be a good example, because I think that may be most similar to what we want our horses to do.

So if a 120lb ballerina was carrying a 15lb pack do you think that would impact her ability as much or more than if she had a bit in her mouth to which she was trying to learn to respond?

The reason I think it's an interesting question is because I'm starting to see how important it is for the horse to learn to stay out to the bit without become braced against it, because it seems to be the only way he can achieve the posture that makes it possible for him to do what he can do at liberty.


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