The jump to Second Level...

[Moutaineer]

I know that there are a few of us attempting to take this step this season...

So, I've been pondering what Chisamba said to Calvin on the training post about the jump between first and second level being the hardest to do, and why this is.

Certainly, the requirements are greater, and it introduces a lot of new things all in one lump. I guess collection is the root of all, however.

Stringing together all those disparate elements into a cohesive whole is harder.

I'm finding that this is taking a lot more focus, concentration and exactitude than I have had to use before in my riding. And I have to be fitter myself to handle the fitness and forwardness that I have created underneath me.

So, those of you who are doing it, tell us what your challenges are.

My nemesis this week is the medium trot. Horse can do it beautifully, if I can sit quietly, However he is somewhat hampered by my "rag doll on speed" flailings, and I feel it's unfair to practice the crap out of it, so I'm stuck in a bit of a vicious circle here...

Those of you who have moved on past this phase, please share your insights and tips that can help us overcome our challenges!

[Rosie B]

Good question

I made the jump to showing 2nd level in 2011, with my leased horse. It took four years (I showed first in 2007), and part of that was life getting in the way, but not all of it was due to that.

There were a few things I did in retrospect that helped with the jump.
1) In second level and above, you need collection. You need the horse to take more responsibility for his balance and to carry himself. Therefore, the rider needs to take more responsibility and carry herself. I examined my position with a magnifying glass. I picked out every little flaw I could find, figured out why I had them, and then did my best to fix them. The tiniest things can have a huge impact on your ability to be successful. You can't pay enough attention to this.
2) In second level and above, you expect the horse to be more responsive to your subtle aids. So make this easy for him. Every movement you make can be interpreted as an aid. Every movement you make that is not an aid is 'noise' to the horse, and the horse has to figure out which movements were noise and which were actual aids. Tone down the noise to make it super easy for the horse to recognize your aids. I started doing this by paying close attention to everything I was doing while doing something simple - like cantering a 20m circle. My legs were doing things that weren't necessary - my outside leg was bumping her every stride to no purpose... so I worked on eliminating the noise for months. I did my best to make every aid as clear and concise and noise free as I could.
3) Start thinking about timing and feel, if you haven't already. Your horse can't strike off beautifully and immediately in canter from the walk if his outside hind is out behind him. The horse can't leg yield well if you're trying to push him over while his inside hind is on the ground. There is no way he can move the leg when it's on the ground. So pay attention to what the horse is doing with his legs and try to 'feel' it. I spent about two months looking down at Prussia's outside shoulder to time my transitions to canter from walk, and after that time all of a sudden one day I didn't have to look any more because I could feel the right moment to ask.
4) Fitness - especially core strength. Regular pilates helped me enormously. If you're struggling with mediums, that suggests lack of core strength.

That's all I can think of for now. Hope this helps. Please keep in mind I am by no means an expert - just an ammy... I showed 2nd level in 2011 (with scores low 60s to low 70s) and third level at a couple shows (scores in the high 50s) before losing the ride on my leased horse. But that's what I learned in that process.

[piedmontfields]

I'm completely not an expert, Mountaineer, as I primarily train and get critiqued by people who know more than I do! (and who do compete regularly)

However, here is my short hand:

-In second level, the horse actually needs to be on the bit/connected the whole time. Not just when you think about it.
-Compared to first/training, the movements come up fairly quickly and steadily in 2nd. Hence, your horse just needs to be on the bit as there is not a lot of time to put them on the bit again in between movements!

While it is absolutely true that collection begins at 2nd, it has been hitting me lately how much *more* collection is needed in 3rd and 4th, not to mention beyond. So don't freak out about collection. Hey, I would say don't freak about the mediums, either---just make sure you show a clear difference going in and out of them. This is a big point from Janet Foy. Because I have a horse with modest (at best) mediums, you better believe I make them look as dramatic as possible by showing a big difference between my collected and medium trots and canters. BTW, lots of people hold the saddle front (in a subtle way) on their big movers in the mediums and extensions.

[Ryeissa]

I'm so glad you posted this thread! I'll be playing along. I wish we could mix and match the levels and showcase our horses' best. My horse does better in lateral work than extensions.

[Ryeissa]

I found a saddle change to be critical, things really came up that were a "1% issue" in training became a real hindrance.

[Moutaineer]

Rosie B--all very valid points!

The core strength thing... It's improved hugely in the last two months. But I'm older and a bit fragile and I have to be so damn careful with my SI joint it's an issue finding safe exercises.

Piedmont, new trainer had me add a grab strap to my saddle, and if I remember to actually grab it at the strategically correct moment, it is a help

She also expects a greater degree of fitness and finesse than my old trainer, who I realize now was basically just phoning it in. Sigh. What a waste of precious time.

New trainer was kind enough to say that she forgets when she is teaching me that I am a 55 year old AA with a desk job

This horse has a big, expressive trot which has been challenging to learn to sit, but we managed that. When I hit the sweet spot, the medium is pretty fancy!

[Flight]

I found the holes in my training moving up to 2nd level. I needed my horse to be much more on my aids and moving easily with energy, and with more engagement.

[Brydie]

I can't contribute as I've never ridden past first (years ago) and who knows if I ever get there with Red.

But would you suggest anything to those at training who would eventually like to ride second, maybe in a couple of years to make the jump any easier?

[Sue B]

I wrote a whole post about this 2nd lvl agony but forgot to submit it. lol
Suffice it to say that I now consider 2nd lvl like middle school--probably because my ds is in middle school. This is the time you find all the holes you glossed over during elementary school, and the time that your student wishes to be one of the "big" kids one minute and the "preschooler" the next. So I happily review the basics but expect a new excellence, and waaaay more precision. My tactic with Rudy is to train for showing 3rd so that I can go back later (next year) and get those high 60's/low 70's at 2nd test 3. This naturally requires I up my game fitness and riding wise to reach our goal. So glaD you all are there to help me along my path.

[Chisamba]

People who regularly ride collection,. FEI riders and trainers, they do not get on a young horse and train too get good scores at training level and first level. They get on a horse and prepare it for collection. They use the lower level exercises as part of preparation for collection. If you look at centerline scores, mostly they show third through FEI.

If we rode every ride making balance out priority, we would not have trouble making the step to second.

Since I made the choice to start training horses to be safe for their riders as a priority, which has its huge rewards,. The step to second had become harder on my own horses.

I have never believed that the lower level tests prepare a horse for the upper levels. Statistics side with me. The horses doing well in the lower levels are not the ones doing well at the upper levels.

Once you have developed the balance needed for second level, the next steps through the next levels are intuitive and establish each other.

[Dresseur]

Second level is hard. I agree with Chisamba that preparing for collection is part of every day work with a young horse. I personally did not find that to be the difficult portion. I do think that people ride with less energy than 2nd level calls for. They tend to slow the horse to make it easier to sit, and mistake the hovering, slower gaits for collection.

The other thing (and I may get flamed for saying this) is that training, first and second level still reward the gifted movers that show large, swinging movement with natural suspension. Suppleness is rewarded, whereas horses that are already working in a more collected frame tend to have a hard time at 2nd. In other words, if you have a less than gifted mover, you get dinged. I've been through this - scores fairly high at first level, took a dip in second where we barely scraped by, and then huge scores at 3rd. IMO 3rd level is the first level where the training of the horse becomes hugely important. Less spectacular, but correctly trained horses start to shine.

[Ryeissa]

Along the same line as Dresseur- my horse is a decent mover, and very supple. My new (as of May 2015) trainer pointed out that the reason my horse wasn't stable in self carriage went back to asking for too much forward and suppleness. Interesting. I though these were good-- however, like in cooking, too much of a good thing is a bad thing.
I didn't have the "positive tone" that allows elevation of the sternum. me and my horse had no real base and sort of wiggled and flung the legs (not talking about foundations in dressage- we have excellent basics and good records at the limited shows we have done).

this was a huge eye opener as someone who was taught leg fixes everything-- yes, but management of the energy so my horse doesn't take this and TIP OVER onto the shoulder was key. I always knew about a horse starting out on his forehand, but I was inadvertently making him more on the forehand by sending him on too much.

It almost looked like he wasn't moving, then he learned to place each leg with care and lift. This became self carraige. We are still working on this pretty much as first priority.

Maybe this is obvious to some, it sure is now in hindsight. But I wasn't taught about positive tension and how that can feel ok.

[Dresseur]

Ryeissa, this is a big thing - that positive tension in the horse is good. And a lot of people don't seem to be taught this. I find that people tend to shy away from this positive tension because they are taught that any tension is bad and that all should be flowing and soft, but really, the back and abs of the horse need to have that tensile strength. Anyone who has sat on a good piaffe or passage has felt the feeling of the horse being firm in a positive way - and if you think of that horse leveraging up for a levade - that back is NOT sagging and soft. The horse needs to connect the two ends together - and the way to that is through a strong back. (not stiff - strong, like pliable wire). When everything is forward and loose and swinging, you're not necessarily building that suspension bridge. That's why constant long and low doesn't work toward collection - but it feels good, because the back feels raised and it feels soft. It's easy to get seduced by that feeling.

[tlkidding]

I've been through 2nd level he** twice and struggled both times.

-- I think one of the biggest hurdles is in 2nd level is the half halt. It is vital to help change and hold the balance over the hind legs and maintain the beginning of collection. For many, many riders the timing of the HH is not yet instinctive, so everything his a little late. Timing and the reaction of the horse to the HH...
-- 2nd level requires much more suppleness and bend in the lateral work, which also means a greater degree of "submission."
-- The second time I was moving young horse through the levels. As an AA, I definitely didn't realize how much strength it required of my horse to stay supple and start moving his balance to the hind legs.
-- The young horses are also generally at an age where they might be going through some "teenage angst," they are being asked to change their natural balance for the first time, and they may still be filling out and growing.
-- All of this required a lot more time in the saddle to develop the horse's strength

I also think a bit of it is similar to the positive tension issue above. Personally as an AA riding a 17.2hh horse, I liked to ride the quite, soft training and first level tests. I didn't realize that you needed the tension to hold the balance more over the hind legs, so I think I was riding the neck down all the time and constantly moving the balance towards the forehand whenever I felt tension.

[demi]

Lots of interesting comments here. I took only took one horse to second level but never showed him at that level. For me, the biggest issue by far, is that it requires a lot of core strength, balance, and coordination on my part for jumping to second level. And as I age, I need to put in extra effort on my own fitness.

I think I am close to being able to ride 2nd level tests on Emma. She was trained to PSG but was soured when i got her and we are working through that. BUT, and this is a big butt, the biggest obstacle right now is my own fitness and mental focus. Somewhere between the age of 50 and 60, I lost a lot of fitness and put on weight. I have been working with a personal trainer 2X a week for around 9 months now. I am now able to get into my larger britches and tall boots, but still have a ways to go before i can fit into my smaller britches.

[Ryeissa]

When everything is forward and loose and swinging, you're not necessarily building that suspension bridge. That's why constant long and low doesn't work toward collection - but it feels good, because the back feels raised and it feels soft. It's easy to get seduced by that feeling.

yes you said it better than I could!

I hardly do any long and low right now. its just that we both need to retrain our bodies not to go there and ride more in self carraige. I don't feel I can do both at the moment. I do a lot of free walk breaks, and maybe a circle in stretching trot.

From the first step I expect the horse to be on the aids.

[kande50]

the biggest obstacle right now is my own fitness and mental focus. Somewhere between the age of 50 and 60, I lost a lot of fitness and put on weight.

Demi, wouldn't the extra weight help make you stronger, as long as you continued to exercise the muscles that needed to be able to carry the weight? If I could put some more weight on as muscle I'd definitely do it, but alas, one needs drive to put on muscle (and to develop enough focus to remember a test) and that flew right out the window somewhere between 64 and 65.

I'm still holding out some hope that my drive might come back, but have to admit that I don't really care whether it does or not.

Today I was riding around and working on bending left without creating a passagey trot, because when I try to create more forward energy and then ask him to bend he tends to lift into a passagey trot instead of bending. But I got him as energetically forward as I could before trying to get the bend, and actually got a more energetic passagey trot. I'll have to wait until Friday when the trainer's here to see if she likes it any better than his slow passagey trot, or if she doesn't like the more energetic one either, because I had the camera set up to record his hoof landings so missed the rest of it.

Can't wait until you get your soloshot so I can see more of what you're working on, as I always find it motivating when I see riders around my age who are still riding.

[Chisamba]

Well, things that you can skate along with until second level. your horse is stretching to the bit when in a long frame. its very rewarding, the contact is there the back is supple and the horse is elastic, then you ask the horse to carry itself up in front. it stops stretching to the bridle, and stops using its back, so you go back to a long frame, bang, the reward is there, so you ask the horse to be more uphill, its gone.

this is perhaps because you have taught the horse to stretch to the bridle long and low, not as a reward for better balance and activity. correction, teach the horse to stretch into the bridle uphill, with carrying hind leg activity, with accurately ridden ten meter circles and shoulder in then stretch down to reward and check for reaching into contact.

riding transitions over several steps for smoothness instead of hind end to front end and straight. fix, being able to maintain shoulder in position in upward and downward transitions.

being able to half halt, ie, change the balance of the horse, without losing impulsion. in other words not a half a downward transition, but a change of balance with forward. this is essential to develop the uphill balance in medium and extended gaits, and the difference between collection and slowing down to make the sitting trot easier

anyway, this is to answer Brydie, and help me remember too

[Chisamba]

PS: the horse that reaches for the bridle on a shortened rein, ie does no compress the neck, is the one that lifts its shoulder over the back, to become uphill, the one that shortens the neck to become uphill bounces its shoulders up with extravagant front end action, but is not equally active behind and the most obvious "tell" of hyper flexion.

the former is more difficult and the horse will tell you it is more difficult, will need more rest, and will need more support developing collection.

the latter is more comfortable to sit as they tend to have still backs, heavy sounding footfalls, and often very flashy knees.

[Linden16]

I find that the reason *most* people cannot advance to or past second is because of 2 things:

Lack of an independent contact/seat, and

The understanding of the training scale.

Note how I do not reference their horses, tack, or trainers here. Riding with the goal of producing suppleness, connection and collection is the key to getting out of first level. To understand the whys in order to produce the how's is a huge stepping stone, one that many riders never get to take.

[Chisamba]

I find that the reason *most* people cannot advance to or past second is because of 2 things:

Lack of an independent contact/seat, and

The understanding of the training scale.

Note how I do not reference their horses, tack, or trainers here. Riding with the goal of producing suppleness, connection and collection is the key to getting out of first level. To understand the whys in order to produce the how's is a huge stepping stone, one that many riders never get to take.

OTOH if you look at centerline scores, which i do, often for fun, you will see lots of riders who did great at training and first, lousy at second, but okay at third, fourth, and then bought a upper level horse and have tons of scores at PSG. ( most of the young rider team) so, the question then would be, why struggle at second but be able to ride at PSG?

no, i will not give examples because i am not intending to "out" anyone. but it happens

[khall]

What I have seen causes the most issues with the need for collection is that so many riders compress the horse, shorten the neck which means the horse cannot collect correctly. To shorten the base the horse has to engage from the hind end, that leads to the elevation of the front end. What ends up happening with the compression is that the horse flattens instead of elevates which reduces the amplitude of the gaits, leading to lack of engagement. BTDT and have had the T shirt! What I try to remember is that collection is about activity and elevation of the movement of the horse, not to be slower and have hang time (unless we are riding passage!) with hovering steps. Those hind legs need activity to stay up under the horse so the horse can lift the front end from the engaged hind end. There is a fine line between riding with too short of reins and not short enough to capture that activity so it can be recycled back through the horse i.e. half halt.

I agree with Chisamba re using lateral work to encourage engagement, but I use all of the lateral work SI, HI, and even more renvere and counter SI, to mobilize the shoulders of the horse both on straight and curved lines. This builds the strength and straightens the horse (very important component in collection) so the horse can work in true collection with active gaits that show elevation.

All of the above observations (Rosie I really like all of your points especially) are very good for reminders to all of us. It takes a good bit of thoughtful riding and active riding on our part to present a horse in even mild collection as needed for 2nd level. I do think riding through the tests is good for training purposes, to help figure out what needs to be worked on. I do this very rarely simply because showing is not on my to do list very often. Lately I have just been attending schooling shows anyway, just too expensive and not as much fun attending a recognized show.

[kande50]

There is a fine line between riding with too short of reins and not short enough to capture that activity so it can be recycled back through the horse i.e. half halt.

IMO, the fine line is between facilitating the lift and blocking it, and I suspect that the easiest way to block it is by thinking that it's about short reins.

I spent most of my lesson time with an instructor who thought that short reins were really important, and then it took me a long time to change my thinking (and muscle memory) to the idea that the light contact really was much more important than the short reins.

I think the whole idea of short reins is to try to get as much as possible as quickly as possible, which IMO, just simply doesn't work.

The reason I was so conflicted about what I was being taught in lessons was because everything I had read was about light aids, and here I was riding with all this weight in my hands because my instructor wanted me to keep my reins a certain length and my hands in a certain place. And of course, once my horse was blocked by the short reins then all the other aids had to be stronger to get her to move.

[demi]

There is a fine line between riding with too short of reins and not short enough to capture that activity so it can be recycled back through the horse i.e. half halt.

I think the whole idea of short reins is to try to get as much as possible as quickly as possible, which IMO, just simply doesn't work.......

The fine line that khall is talking about is the key, IMO. But also, like Kande, I had a trainer push the short rein thing without being able to explain it. Now, I realize, that I need to be able to keep the short reins WITHOUT blocking the horse, and that's where core strength, balance, and coordination come in. The reins have to be short, but to keep them short, I have to be able to move my hands forward and back to keep the contact steady and light, while my seat stays balanced and very steady, and my legs can close quickly and long (so the calf has good contact) to keep the horse's hind end coming under. That's the fine line khall is talking about, I think. It's a delicate balancing act, for sure. More or less delicate depending on the particular horse.

[Dresseur]

Which is why it is so important for the horse to always have a forward inclination, and for the rider to understand that the reins do not hold that back, rather, the horse is "held" by the back/seat/core of the rider. That understanding of the horse and the strength of the horse to be able to respond to that is shaped by progressive excerises.

[Ryeissa]

Linden 16 said something several years ago that spoke to me "ride back to front but not past the seat". that is the same thing I am learning in new ways in my riding.

[Sue B]

Good reminder Rye. I hope when linden feels better, she chimes in too. Great discussion you guys.

[Ryeissa]

Good reminder Rye. I hope when linden feels better, she chimes in too. Great discussion you guys.

I hope so too! she would add a lot to the discussions

[Moutaineer]

She did chime in, I'm happy to say.

What I've learned about short reins on my horse is that they have to be combined with a forward thinking, independent hand. My horse appreciates steady and consistent contact but does not tolerate compression, which is very good for me.

I've also learned through watching video of me riding that what I thought was an appropriate length of rein was in fact too long, and made my contact inconsistent and probably very annoying to him.

So much to think about, eh? No more riding around just looking pretty any more!

[Ryeissa]

So much to think about, eh? No more riding around just looking pretty any more!

I never had that luxury... always so much to think about on a smaller wiggly horse!

[khall]

demi my instructor has us slip the reins (why I use plain leather reins now) to not block the horse and keep our hands stable elbows at our sides unless we are following a bascule in a gait like canter and walk, then there will be some elbow movement allowing the bascule. But of course in collection there is less bascule to follow .

There is a technique in hand that teaches the horse to lift out of the base of the neck and lift the withers. I use this a good bit with my big guy for a couple of reasons: he is naturally built low in the neck with a big heavy chest, so wants to travel on his front end, his favorite go to is stretch, loves traveling in a long frame with nose out and down, happy to do this! he now has the strength built up over our riding time to sit and lift so we are showing him a new way of carriage, that and the trot, halt, RB, trot really engages his hind end and lifts the front end. It has been a methodical and patient work with him for many reasons, he is big as a house, his conformation and temperament has challenges (he was not called sh*t head for nothing!) but now I am beginning to reap those rewards or as my trainer says, the pearls we have instilled in him are now being strung together.

[Chisamba]

I want to agree again that the shortening of the reins for collection does often result in blocking the horse and not raising the withers, the horse has to feel like it is stretching to the shorter rein.

i also agree, that all the correct lateral work helps with this, not just shoulder in, but i used shoulder in specifically to assist in transitions. some horses really do will in traversal, some that want to carry their haunches in as an evasion less so, some horses do really well with shoulder in, some that like to overbend and pop their shoulder, less so, it is important to pay attention to the response your horse gives you.

I think this might be one of what i consider the biggest hurdles in progressive training, really paying attention to what the horse gives you. some people are very methodical, and pay attention to what they are asking more than to what the horses response is. some riders are the opposite, paying attention to what they horse should look like, rather than how they are asking, until how you ask becomes really important to achieve the next level.

for some reason, the second level tests this most of all

[Flight]

Khall, I think you've said it before, but it sounds like we are following similar paths

I'm still bad for either throwing away the contact, or holding too much.

[khall]

Flight yes I am very sure we are on quite similar paths! Where did your instructor train? The trainer I work with rode with Nuno Olivera in Portugal. Very detail oriented. When I saw the video you posted I !

[piedmontfields]

So much to think about, eh? No more riding around just looking pretty any more!

I *do* know what you mean, M. I am "lucky" enough to have a horse that looks pretty pretty quite a lot, but it is not as *real* and powerful as it should be. Hence our remedial activities. That said, If I suddenly fall apart and can't work hard at this anymore, I am grateful for Miss Mare looking pretty and easy


But "doing dressage" is not the same as being a lovely "pleasure horse" lol!

[Flight]

Flight yes I am very sure we are on quite similar paths! Where did your instructor train? The trainer I work with rode with Nuno Olivera in Portugal. Very detail oriented. When I saw the video you posted I !

Similar! Started in Portugal, then back here trained with someone who was trained by Nuno Oliveira! So no wonder it sounds like we are learning the same stuff

[demi]

I'm getting a lot out of this thread. Thanks all for contributing!

demi my instructor has us slip the reins (why I use plain leather reins now) to not block the horse and keep our hands stable elbows at our sides unless we are following a bascule in a gait like canter and walk, then there will be some elbow movement allowing the bascule. But of course in collection there is less bascule to follow . ...

I have heard of letting the reins slip and even tried it because it's a natural tendency for me. My problem is getting the reins back to the length I want them after they slip. In fact, Emma figured out quickly that I will let the reins slip and she gets herself a longer rein from me without me even knowing it! So now I am rethinking it. I like having the stops on my reins because I can check myself to see if the reins have gotten too long. On the other hand, maybe I need to be much more aware of the rein length, to the point that I should feel the correct length rather than relying on the stops...

So I can appreciate what Chisamba said

.... it is important to pay attention to the response your horse gives you....

I think this might be one of what i consider the biggest hurdles in progressive training, really paying attention to what the horse gives you. some people are very methodical, and pay attention to what they are asking more than to what the horses response is. some riders are the opposite, paying attention to what they horse should look like, rather than how they are asking, until how you ask becomes really important to achieve the next level.

for some reason, the second level tests this most of all

And this goes along with what Mountainerr said:

...
What I've learned about short reins on my horse is that they have to be combined with a forward thinking, independent hand. My horse appreciates steady and consistent contact but does not tolerate compression, which is very good for me.

I've also learned through watching video of me riding that what I thought was an appropriate length of rein was in fact too long, and made my contact inconsistent and probably very annoying to him.

So much to think about, eh? No more riding around just looking pretty any more!

[kande50]

I have heard of letting the reins slip and even tried it because it's a natural tendency for me. My problem is getting the reins back to the length I want them after they slip. In fact, Emma figured out quickly that I will let the reins slip and she gets herself a longer rein from me without me even knowing it! So now I am rethinking it. I like having the stops on my reins because I can check myself to see if the reins have gotten too long. On the other hand, maybe I need to be much more aware of the rein length, to the point that I should feel the correct length rather than relying on the stops...

I think the stops are a good idea, as I don't think we can rely on feel to tell us when we've got it right if we're not yet sure what it should feel like.

I got the rein slipping from one of Racinet's students, who also recommended smooth reins to make it easier to slip them.

Another suggestion was to carry my hands where I needed to carry them to keep or give the contact I was looking for. So if I wanted the horse to sustain the contact and he came behind and the reins got too long, instead of trying to adjust the reins just move my hands to where they needed to be to maintain the contact I wanted.

Coming to this instructor from my other dressage lessons, these ideas were a huge relief for me, because the whole idea of short reins with the hands in a certain place no matter what the horse was doing didn't make any sense to me, anyway.

Eventually being able to keep the hands in a much smaller box as the training progressed made a lot more sense to me, but trying to start right out that way with the idea that the horse was going to magically find his balance no matter how strong the contact got, or how blocked he was by the hands, didn't.

[exvet]

The fine line that khall is talking about is the key, IMO. But also, like Kande, I had a trainer push the short rein thing without being able to explain it. Now, I realize, that I need to be able to keep the short reins WITHOUT blocking the horse, and that's where core strength, balance, and coordination come in. The reins have to be short, but to keep them short, I have to be able to move my hands forward and back to keep the contact steady and light, while my seat stays balanced and very steady, and my legs can close quickly and long (so the calf has good contact) to keep the horse's hind end coming under. That's the fine line khall is talking about, I think. It's a delicate balancing act, for sure. More or less delicate depending on the particular horse.

This in spades. I absolutely still love second level. It's my favorite even though I'm having a lot of fun with training passage and piaffe and the like. One thing I am often reminded, and I've trained more than one horse/pony to this level, is one instructor's mantra, "don't get too greedy". As you're developing the horse, you ride for 'that' feel and you reward, take a break and then go back to it or move on to something else in a similar vein. By doing so it does get easier and easier (and your periods of true collection are able to be sustained for longer periods of time without having a heavy horse in your hands). As I ride for the feel I also remember one of Linden's sayings and remind myself of it frequently, which basically goes something to the tune of 'my hands belong to the horse but the elbows are mine' so that I ride with the leg and seat maintaining the impulsion forward with my hands receiving it, and re-balancing it but not holding it and yet not throwing the contact away either.......if I feel like the horse is requiring me to hold well we stop working on collection and go back to establishing forward, then balance and more cadence with gradually increasing the requests for more collection.....with my seat and legs doing the majority of the requests. My hands simply serve as guidance as to where the energy should be directed. I've been running more races and working very hard on my core off the horse which just makes my riding that much easier for me and I believe for my horse (PONY) as well. Of course I can't speak for stinker but it's been literally years since he's really tried to launch me

[tlkidding]

There is a technique in hand that teaches the horse to lift out of the base of the neck and lift the withers.

Can I ask you to explain this technique? I have a horse with a short, wedge-shaped neck and lifting the base is difficult when the poll is up. Feel free to start a new thread or pm me.

[Flight]

"don't get too greedy". As you're developing the horse, you ride for 'that' feel and you reward, take a break and then go back to it or move on to something else in a similar vein. By doing so it does get easier and easier (and your periods of true collection are able to be sustained for longer periods of time without having a heavy horse in your hands).

I am so learning this!! I have to keep reminding myself, and it's definitely worth it because the progress is much faster. Even though I think I need to keep doing it to get better, it doesn't seem to work that way.

[Linden16]

Re: letting the reins slip..

My very first instructor taught me to allow the reins to slide anytime the horse took the bit (nicely) forward. This worked for training and first level and on very young horses, however when I started with my regular coach and rose more trained horses I was admonished for it.

I was taught that an open or too generous contact that allowed reins to slip through the fingers was a big no-no for so many reasons.

A) it teaches the horse that they are in control of the contact, and therefore they have the opportunity to learn to be rude with the reins.

B) it encourages a horse to be on the forehand

C) if you are constantly lengthening and subsequently shortening the reins, your contact is too busy, inconsistent and confusing to the horse. It does not promote clear dialogue and then in turn, relaxation.

D) it allows you to become a "hand" rider, which means you learn to adjust your horses' neck shape in order to achieve contact, instead of using your seat and legs to ride the back of the horse to the bit in order to get and maintain contact and connection.

E) your horse will never learn what shape and connection to maintain if you don't set an elastic boundary with your elbows adjusting the rein "length" instead of the actual reins becoming longer and shorter due to being pulled out of your fingers by the horse.

So, anytime past greenies or an honest, controlled stretchy exercise, there's no room for rein length to be allowed to be dictated by the horse. Even with greenies, good trainers don't need to give the control away completely as the horses are usually in balance and don't need to pull the reins out or down. Elasticity and boundaries with the elbows is key, while wrists and fingers remain forgiving and tactful without becoming passive.

[khall]

Linden you misunderstood what I mean by letting the rein slip. You should never ride with an open hand that is not what I mean by letting the reins slip. It is a deliberate action by me as a rider to slide the reins, not the horse taking the reins, to lengthen the neck of the horse so we do not ride the horse in compression. There are times that I want the neck longer and out when working on a particular movement that eases the horse's ability to do the movement. As the horse gains strength there is less need for letting the reins go longer but it is always available if needed.

It is not a constantly adjusting the reins by any means. It is a deliberate act in certain circumstances. I actually feel it keeps the rider from being too handsy and blocking the horse with too short reins.

[Linden16]

I understand what you mean khall! I just don't agree with it

Different schools of thought perhaps!

[khall]

Linden your post talks of the horse determine the rein length and I am not talking about that at or nor am I talking about riding with an open hand so no you do not understand what I am saying. I really don't have time to go point by point but needless to say your idea of what I do is entirely not the case.

[demi]

Re: letting the reins slip..

My very first instructor taught me to allow the reins to slide anytime the horse took the bit (nicely) forward. This worked for training and first level and on very young horses, however when I started with my regular coach and rose more trained horses I was admonished for it.

I was taught that an open or too generous contact that allowed reins to slip through the fingers was a big no-no for so many reasons.

A) it teaches the horse that they are in control of the contact, and therefore they have the opportunity to learn to be rude with the reins.

B) it encourages a horse to be on the forehand

C) if you are constantly lengthening and subsequently shortening the reins, your contact is too busy, inconsistent and confusing to the horse. It does not promote clear dialogue and then in turn, relaxation.

D) it allows you to become a "hand" rider, which means you learn to adjust your horses' neck shape in order to achieve contact, instead of using your seat and legs to ride the back of the horse to the bit in order to get and maintain contact and connection.

E) your horse will never learn what shape and connection to maintain if you don't set an elastic boundary with your elbows adjusting the rein "length" instead of the actual reins becoming longer and shorter due to being pulled out of your fingers by the horse.

So, anytime past greenies or an honest, controlled stretchy exercise, there's no room for rein length to be allowed to be dictated by the horse. Even with greenies, good trainers don't need to give the control away completely as the horses are usually in balance and don't need to pull the reins out or down. Elasticity and boundaries with the elbows is key, while wrists and fingers remain forgiving and tactful without becoming passive.

Thanks for this, Linden. What you've written is timely for me. Your point A), describes exactly what I very recently went through with my horse (head flipping) and I wrote quite a bit about it in the goals thread. Also, your point c), describes what I was worried about if I consciously allowed the reins to slip. I have a feeling it would take way more dexterity than I have to smoothly take back the rein length after letting it slip.

I am glad to see so many contributing to this thread!

[demi]

... One thing I am often reminded, and I've trained more than one horse/pony to this level, is one instructor's mantra, "don't get too greedy". As you're developing the horse, you ride for 'that' feel and you reward, take a break and then go back to it or move on to something else in a similar vein. By doing so it does get easier and easier (and your periods of true collection are able to be sustained for longer periods of time without having a heavy horse in your hands)...
... I've been running more races and working very hard on my core off the horse which just makes my riding that much easier for me and I believe for my horse (PONY) as well. Of course I can't speak for stinker but it's been literally years since he's really tried to launch me

Thanks for your input! Flight quoted part of your comment as I did about not getting too greedy and I can relate to that, too. It's a good reminder for me right now as I tend to get a little too thrilled when Emma gives me some neat stuff!

Also, I appreciate your mention of working hard on your core. This could be a whole new topic. Emma has tried a few times to "launch me" after big spooks, and I know that having worked on my core strength (well, and the grab strap!) has helped me sit deeply and securely enough that she was unsuccessful. I like the confidence a strong core gives me, and have just added a third day/week to working out off the horse.

Thanks again.

[Linden16]

Linden your post talks of the horse determine the rein length and I am not talking about that at or nor am I talking about riding with an open hand so no you do not understand what I am saying. I really don't have time to go point by point but needless to say your idea of what I do is entirely not the case.

My point, was about allowing the rein length to vary due to them slipping (deliberately) through the fingers vs allowing the angle of the elbow and even upper arm to come forward.

Both allow the horse to stretch, one requires a re-gathering of the reins, one by one, and one requires the joints of the arm to be elastic and react with feel and timing.

[exvet]

Both allow the horse to stretch, one requires a re-gathering of the reins, one by one, and one requires the joints of the arm to be elastic and react with feel and timing.

I will add that both allow one to lengthen the horse's neck, test their self-carriage and balance too. Having utilized both methods, I have to admit that I've had to go with not letting the reins slip because I'm simply not coordinated enough nor am I 'quick' enough shortening the reins when needed at the upper levels. That is not to say that I stay in my pony's face; but, my reaction time to energy redirection/balancing etc just isn't what it use to be. I have to focus even harder now on maintaining my balance, strength and keeping him moving in front of my leg without sacrificing my position and that includes my hands........if I feed out and shorten the reins repeatedly I find my hands get too busy, often disturbing the connection instead of maintaining it. Again this has far more to do with my lack of coordination and already challenged feel and timing of the aids than it does with one method being 'more right' than the other one.

[Sue B]

THIS is a GREAT conversation y'all are having. I've been out of town since Thursday at a soccer tourney so I am just catching up now and have really enjoyed reading all the posts. Exvet and Linden, I am so happy to see you two chiming in. Khall, interesting post about deliberate rein slip, I think I understand what you are saying and I am pretty sure I have done that before with good success in special circumstances.

As I've said before, i have a sort of love/hate relationship with 2nd lvl but I think it has more to do with showing 2nd lvl vs schooling 2nd lvl. Since I decided not to show this year (due to financial and time constraints), I believe my schooling sessions with Rudy have actually been more, not less, productive. I think this is because I am more focused on the details of 2nd/3rd level instead of schooling for the tests per se. The clinic I had with Hilda in 2014 emphasized consistent, forward thinking short reins. Now that I have "mastered" that, I can see it sits me in a better spot in the saddle and that my horse is consistently reaching for the bit instead of shortenning (I ride a giraffe, lol) his neck. As always I could certainly use more core strength though.