Improving position, biomechanics?

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Improving position, biomechanics?

Postby Flight » Tue Jun 21, 2016 12:47 am

I really would like to totally fix my riding position and I just can't seem to do it! It's really frustrating.
I can video my rides and see what's wrong, but when I try to fix it the next time, I don't seem to do be able to fix it.

In the past I've had Mary Wanless videos and book. That has helped with a few things, but I don't like how she positions the foot so far back. I know you should be aligned so that it looks like you'd land on your feet, but to me the neutral position tends to be giving aids already behind the girth?? Thoughts??

My main problems that I hate looking at, is a loose lower leg that kicks about in rising trot.

Riding without stirrups I can do - does this really benefit?
Lunge lessons - can't do, but my horse is pretty quiet that I could probably do some exercises.

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Re: Improving position, biomechanics?

Postby Ryeissa » Tue Jun 21, 2016 1:01 am

I use her methods, its been awesome. I can't say anything about "being too far back" but I know for me my stirrups needed to be shorter. I can then "snowplow" and align my leg. Having this support helps me not sit so heavy in the seatbones and irons. My horse brings his back up much better and I can sit tight in the saddle but in a supported way.

I can try to find a pic- by no means are my legs hiked up or too far back.

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Re: Improving position, biomechanics?

Postby Dresseur » Tue Jun 21, 2016 1:15 am

As someone who is constantly fixing and fussing with position, I'd be happy to take a look if you have pics/vid that you'd be willing to share. Can't really help diagnose without that though. Most of the time, deviations in the limbs are because of something going on in the pelvis and core. In rising trot, the leg will kick a bit, chances are that you need to anchor your thigh a bit more to get rid of an excessive kick. One thing that I like to tell people is to not be afraid of bouncing a bit. I get suspicious of people who are too still - when there is no movement, the rider is not transferring energy all the way down, and is usually blocking it at the knees or gripping elsewhere like the calf.

In terms of no stirrup work, yes, a few minutes at a time helps. I don't like working exclusively without stirrups because there is a tendency to be able to fix things without stirrups, and then have to fix it all over again when you pick the stirrups back up.
Last edited by Dresseur on Tue Jun 21, 2016 1:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Improving position, biomechanics?

Postby silk » Tue Jun 21, 2016 1:39 am

Peggy Cummings' Connected Groundwork & Riding. Influences from Alexander Technique, Feldenkrais, TTeam/TTouch, as well as Sally Swift's Centered Riding.
My instructor (NZ-based, CR-trained, a technicality means she's no longer a CR practitioner but she definitely knows her stuff!) does travel to Aust, not sure how much she's doing these days. Her name is Trisha Wren, trishawren.com.

Alternatively Robyn Hood does a lot of TTeam/TTouch in Aust, she is Linda Tellington-Jones' sister. There are AU-based TTeam practitioners as well, Rebecca Booth is one who springs to mind, there are likely others.

Having seen a lot of riders who have gone the RWYM route, I much prefer the TTeam & Connected way of doing things. I have done two of the CR practitioner courses myself.

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Re: Improving position, biomechanics?

Postby silk » Tue Jun 21, 2016 1:39 am

Sorry, that should say, "you will probably find that CR (etc) helps you a lot" at the beginning.

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Re: Improving position, biomechanics?

Postby Chisamba » Tue Jun 21, 2016 1:47 am

I think riding without stirrups causes or exacerbates lower leg movement. You should be able to stand at any time, without having to grip with your knees or calves to maintain posture.

I have my riders with loose lower legs stand in the stirrups for three strides, post one, stand there, post one. I also have students post without actually sitting down in the saddle. Instead of going up down up down, I say pretend there is a thumbtack on your saddle and go up, almost down, up, almost down.

This is quite a workout for your core and it secures the lower leg.

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Re: Improving position, biomechanics?

Postby Dresseur » Tue Jun 21, 2016 2:01 am

^ seriously good exercise. You can add sitting in there too if you want. Sit, post, stand. Rinse, repeat.

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Re: Improving position, biomechanics?

Postby khall » Tue Jun 21, 2016 3:26 am

I also like change diagonal every 3 strides. May have to go back to this one myself!

Are you pinching with your knee that your lower leg is loose? I really concentrate on keeping my hips, thighs and knees soft and draped. That is one reason I hate riding an energy conservationist type of horse, they really wreck havoc on your position.

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Re: Improving position, biomechanics?

Postby Flight » Tue Jun 21, 2016 3:33 am

Ok I've just ridden and videoed it, however won't share. Weather is so foul so I ended up having to tuck my thermal top into my thermal kerritt jods to stop my top blowing up to my boobs and for some reason have them hoiked up as harry high pants. It is a sight to never share on a public forum! :oops: :lol:
Stirrups up a hole and feet more under my bum, thinking snowplough and riding with more muscle effort ie less jelly fishing and it looks much better.

I'll do another tomorrow with better clothes on and share.

Dresseur, I was looking at your pics earlier and admiring your position!

Silk - yes I have heard of the TTeam here, but didn't realise it was about riding position that would help me. Actually I'm not sure what I thought! I will look them both up, thanks.

Chisamba - I find this too, especially just watching the vid. My lower leg sticks out without stirrups even when I try and force it back in. I can do two point pretty easily (I tried to do eventing for a bit and spent ages in 2 point), however it is more of a challenge with longer stirrups and a dressage saddle. I'd say the thumbtack on my saddle exercise would test me quite a bit though.

Khall - my saddle/legs/horse are really wide and I do find without stirrups that my leg gets stuck just above my knee, unless I take my knee right off. Sometimes I think in my efforts to keep my knee and thigh from not pinching, I lose to much tone and flop about.
Yes, having a horse that likes conserving energy is the reason why I ended up with a kicky leg in the first place.

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Re: Improving position, biomechanics?

Postby khall » Tue Jun 21, 2016 3:56 am

Flight then I would spend time raising BOTH knees up off the saddle and then letting them back down. First at just the halt and then at least at the walk, maybe trot if your horse is good. This will help loosen your hip joint, releasing it so you can drape your leg

I feel your pain! Wide horse, wide saddle thankfully with fairly narrow twist (Black Country Vinic Monoflap!) I know it is causing me some hip pain on the right hip because of this wide load of a horse. I also spent time getting him in front of my leg, I seem to recall you have done the same with your guy.

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Re: Improving position, biomechanics?

Postby silk » Tue Jun 21, 2016 8:15 am

There is a lot of groundwork and horse stuff in the TTeam 'method', but a lot is biomechanics. Peggy's work focuses more on the rider, both on the ground and in the saddle. She has some wonderful exercises you can do to check your position is effective. We (trainee practitioners) spend a lot of time at expos balancing people on a saddle horse to teach them 'neutral' and why it's important for biomechanics and effective movement.

I find Feldenkrais (completely separate from horses) is very useful for my body awareness.

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Re: Improving position, biomechanics?

Postby Ryeissa » Tue Jun 21, 2016 9:28 pm

:lol: ok, well you can send me a PM then!

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Re: Improving position, biomechanics?

Postby Flight » Tue Jun 21, 2016 11:12 pm

I watched yesterdays video in slow motion. Wow hideous! However, it did show that I'm actually a hollow backed rider most of the time, in an effort to sit up I stick my bum and belly out. I always thought I was a slouchy rider.

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Re: Improving position, biomechanics?

Postby demi » Tue Jun 21, 2016 11:42 pm

Flight wrote:I watched yesterdays video in slow motion. Wow hideous! However, it did show that I'm actually a hollow backed rider most of the time, in an effort to sit up I stick my bum and belly out. I always thought I was a slouchy rider.


Flight, you are exaggerating!! You are NOT a "hideous" rider. It is good that you are trying to refine your position, but remember that you are really doing pretty good and improvements will be icing on the cake.

I think this is a great thread but just haven't had the time to contribute. It's summer and we've had lots of company and more coming on Friday. This topic is on my mind though, and I will get back to it....

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Re: Improving position, biomechanics?

Postby Flight » Tue Jun 21, 2016 11:52 pm

Sorry demi, with my thermal top tucked in to harry high pants and my fluffy bits bouncing in slow motion - it was pretty bad :lol: That's what I meant by hideous.
I don't mean to sound self pitying etc, I've decided I really want to be a good rider. Not just potter around at training level, I want to eventually ride GP! Whether I do or not, who knows? But I'm going to be more ambitious than I have been.
So, love to hear what others have done/trying to do to keep improving themselves as well :)

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Re: Improving position, biomechanics?

Postby Dresseur » Wed Jun 22, 2016 1:18 am

Don't do the slow motion thing to yourself!! Trust me, I know- I do it all the time to myself. It's murder on self esteem.

Brutally honest alert:
To fix/obsess over position...
get fit (note- not skinny... Fit)
Find good eyes on the ground, preferably a trainer who obsesses over position
Obsess, be aware, exaggerate
Set small goals- makes it easier to remind yourself. Focus on core and pelvis, the rest will follow
Don't be afraid to feel stiff at first. It's like little girls or boys practicing at the barre- they hold the position first, suppleness and grace come later.
Read theory- I love Workbooks from the SRS and Boldt's book.
Leave pride at the door, assume that you know nothing John Snow. :lol:

It sounds like you are already on the path with most of these goals. You can do it!

Will add, check out the ballet beautiful series on YouTube. You'll hate her, but those core, low back, swam arms etc workout are brutal and made a huge difference in my riding. To address asymmetric hips... Roll down on medicine ball so that the ball supports your shoulders. Hands on hips- knees at 90, lift pelvis. SLOWLY raise one foot off ground and straighten leg, then the other. Repeat. Don't drop hips, don't twist them when lifting your leg. HUGE difference in being able to ride changes.

Pps: right now I'm working on getting my heel a little lower, and getting my arm a bit more out in front of me.

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Re: Improving position, biomechanics?

Postby Brydie » Wed Jun 22, 2016 3:18 am

Flight wrote:I don't mean to sound self pitying etc, I've decided I really want to be a good rider. Not just potter around at training level, I want to eventually ride GP! Whether I do or not, who knows? But I'm going to be more ambitious than I have been.
So, love to hear what others have done/trying to do to keep improving themselves as well :)


Love this thread as this is exactly what I want as well! Obviously won't happen with Red but I want to go as far with him as I can, so when he retires and I buy a youngster I'll have a lot more experience. Right now I want to fix my shoulder position as rounded shoulders is one thing I hate about my position in photos.

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Re: Improving position, biomechanics?

Postby Chisamba » Wed Jun 22, 2016 11:14 am

I thought i posted on how I work on my position and somehow it's not here.

On one riding day at A E C M I spend all my attention on me for one or two strides, open ribs, relaxed shoulders, legs equal lengths, heels level. Then I continue focusing on us.

The next riding day in each corner I focus on me, my balance and my aids.

Then once a week I have some one video and I remind myself of priorities.

I have been able to improve some mighty persistent problems over the years and it shows if I look back at photos, the ones I never show anyone, lol.

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Re: Improving position, biomechanics?

Postby musical comedy » Wed Jun 22, 2016 11:43 am

My opinion fwiw.

Not everyone is going to be able to look like Dresseur in the saddle (that's a compliment) no matter how hard we try.
Lots of things play into the equation such as body type.

Like Flight, I also brutally critique my videos to the point where I'd be so upset I couldn't sleep at night. It can be
helpful to really see what is going wrong.

While I don't discount the value of riding with a trainer or grounds person that helps critique position, I think it can have a real
disadvantage IF that person is not really knowledeable about human biomechanics and doesn't insist the rider do things that
really cannot be done physically. To look at me, most people wouldn't automatically see how my body proportions can be
problematic as a rider. With lordosis, a long tilted pelvis, and a long thigh/short calf, believe me it is very difficult to
ride well, especially at posting trot. For decades (literally) I'd have instructors (especially in the jumping discipline) come and
position me they way they wanted me to look. Ain't gonna happen.

The other thing is that if you are working on a big position change, the horse is going to pay a price for it. That is because
when you try to change something, you stiffen because it doesn't feel natural. That is the reason doing it on a lunge horse
is the best. However, you can't change position faults quickly. You need many 'consistent' repetitions.

What I've done that helps is try to determine which fault is most imperative to fix and then figure out what cause that fault; the root.
Then I try to focus on just that fault. It's worked, but still I get distracted when focusing on the horse, and resort back to
my bad habits.

I also want to mention about 2-point. It is hard to do in a dressage saddle because of the saddle balance.

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Re: Improving position, biomechanics?

Postby Flight » Wed Jun 22, 2016 12:19 pm

Dresseur - thankyou, this is the sort of stuff I need to hear. I checked out that ballet girl - wow! Yes, I'll add her to my Yoga youtube torturers, along with your exercise :D

Chisamba, I will have to form a bit more of a formal way of checking on my riding, like you've described. I do try and do checkups as I'm riding, but it's easy to be distracted.

Great post musical! I did have a lesson years ago with a biomechanics instructor and it was helpful for my wonky leg. She talked a LOT, but gave better suggestions than I've had before.
I know it's not possible to fix it all at once, but I feel I've got a few big things to sort out, and hopefully the rest will be easy.....

Ok, I've got a little bit of vid, hopefully not too much to bore you all with, but enough for you to see if you can help.

So, all I was trying to fix on this ride was my seat in the saddle, to stop hollowing my lower back (I am sway backed normally), but to tilt my pelvis more under. Also, trying to have stronger legs without gripping.

I wasn't paying attention to my hands/contact, and as Musical Comedy pointed out - the horse pays the price, I didn't give him a particularly good ride. He became a bit heavy and forehandy, I knew I was dropping my hands and getting stiff, but when I thought of them, I forgot to keep my pelvis under!

https://youtu.be/AzvVUy4UOs4

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Re: Improving position, biomechanics?

Postby kande50 » Wed Jun 22, 2016 12:20 pm

musical comedy wrote:While I don't discount the value of riding with a trainer or grounds person that helps critique position, I think it can have a real
disadvantage IF that person is not really knowledeable about human biomechanics and doesn't insist the rider do things that
really cannot be done physically.


I'm very relaxed about my position, because like my horse's head and neck position, I have confidence that as we progress things will come into the best alignment they can given our physical (dis)abilities.

Most of that is because I'm not into pushing hard or trying to force anything (BTDT, never again), although I will say that when my new trainer made some adjustments to how I was riding at the walk it didn't take 10,000 reps to change it, which I think was because 1) I was all for the changes she wanted me to make so was willing to make them, and 2) I'd ridden that way before so already had the muscle memory.

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Re: Improving position, biomechanics?

Postby musical comedy » Wed Jun 22, 2016 12:46 pm

Flight wrote:Ok, I've got a little bit of vid, hopefully not too much to bore you all with, but enough for you to see if you can help.
https://youtu.be/AzvVUy4UOs4
I can't 'help' but I think I see the problem because it mimics mine. Your sitting trot is just fine and don't let people convince you that your lower leg moves too much. You have a springy horse, as do I, and I think the sitting trot looks good and the horse looks good. In the rising trot, your lower leg swings back. Mine does too. I can't technically say why that happens with me, but I feel it has to do with my conformation, specifically the lordosis/sway back which you say you have. Personally, I wouldn't worry about the rising trot, except you have to do it with the baby horses. I rise very little because I feel I ride much better sitting and my horse thinks so too. If anyone saw my warmup rising trot, they would think I was a beginner.

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Re: Improving position, biomechanics?

Postby Dresseur » Wed Jun 22, 2016 2:12 pm

Thanks MC :)
I'm not without my own conformational issues :lol:
Scoliosis, very long torso, short legs and a bum hip.

Flight, you are not far off- and your canter position is very nice! My thoughts, to take this to the next level, you need to be a bit firmer in the core. Specifically, the psoas which will stabilize your pelvis. There is a bit of give in your waist, that is sabotaging some of the effectiveness of your alignment.

Shoulders are the next thing- think back and down- if you try the swan arms thing, you will feel the proper "frame" for your shoulders. This will allow you to connect the rein to your back and will help everything feel connected.

I agree, don't worry a ton about the posting, and for sitting, you want the bounce to go through your body, not stop at the knees so that you can influence your horse's back. But really, not bad at all, nicely aligned and a very sympathetic rider!
Last edited by Dresseur on Wed Jun 22, 2016 3:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Improving position, biomechanics?

Postby StraightForward » Wed Jun 22, 2016 2:27 pm

I am not riding right now, but have spent some time focusing on getting a stronger core and better balance so I'm not a total mess when I back my filly. As someone who spends most of my working life in front of a computer, I've come to the conclusion that the necessary core strength for riding is really more about having strong, flexible hips, glutes and psoas even though most people automatically think about abs when "core strength" is mentioned. So to that end, I try to focus my strength workouts on exercises that improve the firing of the posterior muscle chain. The glutes can pretty much completely forget how to work properly when we sit on them all day, so a combo of brute strength like Romanian dead lifts, explosive moves like box jumps, and balance/finesse work like various yoga poses and light single-legged deadlifts can help a lot. Balancing/air squats on a Bosu or other balance device helps a lot as well, as it forces equal weighting of both legs and helps with proprioception in a way that is similar to weight in the stirrups. For the upper back, I like to use a light bar, held palms facing up at hip level. The tailbone is then tucked in and the shoulder blades brought back and down as much as possible and held for several seconds at a time. Being able to ride with a short rein that is still sympathetic requires having a strong back that allows an elegant position with minimal muscle tension, so that the contact can still be elastic.
Keep calm and canter on.

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Re: Improving position, biomechanics?

Postby Dresseur » Wed Jun 22, 2016 2:29 pm

^yes!

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Re: Improving position, biomechanics?

Postby khall » Wed Jun 22, 2016 3:30 pm

Flight IMO watching the video you posted you need more stabilization of the lower body, in particular the psoas muscles. There is a book that specifically targets these muscles teaching the rider how to engage them and exercises how to strengthen them. Here is a description of the book along with the title:

Zen & Horseback Riding explains the location, importance and use of the psoas muscles. The psoas are the deep core muscles that link the upper and lower girdles of the body. They are the basis of all efficient body movement and can be used by participants in any athletic activity.
This book explains how to correctly use your body to obtain tone (strength with flexibility), self-carriage (stability and lift) and movement (vertically bilateral) both on and off the horse. Zen & Horseback Riding is about using horseback riding as a means of self-development and training. It is about improving your riding and your life.
The Riding section has information about tone, engaging the psoas and hyoid muscles, self-carriage, breathing the Vertical "C," and movement. Information about time and space, pushing and pulling, time and resource management, habit and finding a balance is presented. Learn how this directly applies to both your riding and your life.

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Re: Improving position, biomechanics?

Postby Rosie B » Wed Jun 22, 2016 3:46 pm

I have been following along with interest but haven't watched the video so I am avoiding contributing too much for now...

Going off on a bit of a tangent, but I agree completely with MC in that not everyone can achieve a textbook 'perfect' position, due to a number of factors, but the primary one being their conformation. I think in general if you're looking for riders to emulate, you need to look to ones with a similar physique to your own (and of the same gender)... Of course the good riders that are willowy with long legs are going to look elegant, but watching and analysing and trying to mimic how they're moving won't help you all that much if you're NOT long legged and willowy. Furthermore, I firmly believe that women and men need to move in different ways because of the conformational differences in the pelvis etc., so trying to ride like a man is not going to work for you if you're a woman. :)

There are many, many examples of riders with less than classic conformations that nonetheless are super effective and lovely to watch.

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Re: Improving position, biomechanics?

Postby piedmontfields » Wed Jun 22, 2016 4:12 pm

Flight, I hope you are getting the vibe that 1. you are not alone in this process and 2. there are lots of good strategies!

Like others, I'll affirm that learning how to activate and strengthen your core will make a huge difference in the amount of support you have available riding (but also throughout all of life movement). From my experience as a yoga teacher, I do think it is more challenging for people with a sway back to find active core support---but it is also even more important with this conformation to do so for spinal health. One of my favorite movements to teach related to this are belly down leg and arm lifts (eventually getting to the "superman" pose on the floor)---but with fairly soft glute action.

My project of the moment is working on my left sitbone. I've known for sometime that it is not as plugged in as my right one, but I only just found a consistent way to improve it recently---by putting more attention on the overall inward rotation of my left leg from the hip. I have been visiting this thought every few strides (or at worst every circle) and it is starting to get more "normal" to me. I think there is hope for me to plug in evenly yet!

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Re: Improving position, biomechanics?

Postby Ryeissa » Wed Jun 22, 2016 11:55 pm

I've had too much play in the lower legs... Carrying the thigh with more tone helped tighten up my position while staying relaxed- its not gripping or holding. Its rotating in the femur and activating all 4 corners if my seat.
Its an extension of the core.
A new saddle also helped but sadly not a miracle cure- drat!
I'm working on this a lot, I finally had to ask my trainer "how bad is it?" Really bad or getting there?
She said "definitely getting there".
Whew!

Sometimes its tempting to do jumping because its easier to see progress!

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Re: Improving position, biomechanics?

Postby piedmontfields » Thu Jun 23, 2016 12:40 am

Ryeissa wrote:Sometimes its tempting to do jumping because its easier to see progress!


LOL, jumping is clarifying! I always learned a ton when I worked with a jump instructor, even on flat work. Brutal truths. :shock:

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Re: Improving position, biomechanics?

Postby Flight » Thu Jun 23, 2016 4:50 am

Thanks everyone for your replies, I appreciate it and it is good to know that others do battle with riding as well!
I will have to do some reading up on psoas muscles and just how to strengthen my core for riding. I know I have that wiggle in my waist, I struggle to stop it.
If I do stop any absorption of the bounce in sitting trot with my middle, then my arse bounces higher out of the saddle. Where should the bounce go out? Out through my heel? If that makes sense.

The Yoga I'm doing is making me sweat! But I realise it's going to take more than a couple of weeks to sort me out.
I'm going to have a good few rereads of this thread and I'm sure I'll have more questions.

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Re: Improving position, biomechanics?

Postby khall » Thu Jun 23, 2016 11:29 am

Flight it is the hip joint that opens and closes to absorb the movement of the horse. The spine must stay stable or you will end up with back issues. The illiopsoas complex is what flattens the lower back to stabilize the spine at the same time it rotates the thigh inward. I agree with dreseur your canter seat is really nice with a flattened lower back. You are just trying to absorb the movement of the trot with your back rather than the hip joint. I know what dealing with a bouncy trot is like, but if you can stabilize your position it will allow you to influence your horse more. It is especially important to do so with a less than forward horse since it allows the rider to use the power of the stable seat to encourage the energy of the horse without driving and stiffening the horse against you. Not what you are doing but when you see riders leaning back behind the vertical to drive a horse forward.

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Re: Improving position, biomechanics?

Postby Dresseur » Thu Jun 23, 2016 1:25 pm

In the same vein as what Khall wrote - the psoas and I would say obliques as well are incredibly important for stabilizing the spine. It is the whiplike action of the spine when riders try to absorb the motion that causes back issues - and when you don't hold the core firm, the extremities tell on you (a bobbing head, kicking or shaking ankles etc.).

I said it before and I'll say it again, don't be afraid of a bit of bouncing. Don't think of it as your body absorbing all of the motion, think of it as your body transferring the motion. And yes, the "bounce" should travel all the way down through your body. In that way, you can use the motion to influence the horse's back.

My instructor tells me that the angle of the thigh in relation to the hip is a non-negotiable in the position, because you want your hip pressed forward (not tipped - always neutral) so that if you were to cut off the cantle of the saddle, it would not matter, and you would not topple backward. So, if you lean forward and close that angle, you leave your butt out behind you. If you open that angle too much, you are leaning backwards.

position.jpg
position.jpg (216.72 KiB) Viewed 26905 times


Am attaching this, I think it illustrates the journey that I have taken over the years. This is maybe 8-10 years worth of tweaking. If you saw videos of all of this - you would see a transformation from a HORRIBLE tummy trot, to where I am now.
1. Hunter/Jumper princess :lol:
2. My first foray into dressage - no instruction at this point, just what I thought needed to happen. I have my leg more under me, but am compensating in my upper body because my hip couldn't open up, and I assume that I thought I was on the verticle :lol:
3. After maybe a year-ish of instruction. Upper body is better, still working on lengthening my leg - but classic chair seat. And, if you take away my cantle, I'll fall off the saddle.
4. Slowly opening my hip up, again, still slightly chair seated. I'm opening the hip by bringing my upper body back
5. Same thing. On the surface, it looks very aligned, but I'm slightly behind the verticle. I think that I was pushing him forward here, but again, you can see that my hip is out behind my leg, and I've opened hip by bringing upper body back.
6. Finally, I've figured out how to engage low psoas - for the first time, my hip angle is open because I'm driving the knee down, not because I'm leaning one way or another. If you took away the back part of my saddle, I would not fall back.

So, what's next for my tweaking... I want my heel a little lower and shoulders back more.

Hope this helps you to see the relationship the hip/psoas and position has. Crotch and sternum should move together - not as separate units. The hip should be pressed up due to engaged psoas.

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Re: Improving position, biomechanics?

Postby Chisamba » Thu Jun 23, 2016 2:38 pm

Dresser, imho u do not need to put your shoulders back more,. You have a natural arch to your back that will be accentuated if you bring your shoulders back,. I would say flat your lower back more. Again jmho.

Flight,. I see sitting behind center,. Instead of over center. This is putting you behind the motion of his trot instead with it.

I also think you are a little too loose in the inner thigh. The joints , hip and knee, should be loose because they absorb the motion, but the inner thigh should remain flat and closed as if containing a bubble , not popping it, but not letting it escape.

Perhaps that imagery does not work for you , I use imagery a lot in teaching and it only works for some.

Not being critical, just attempting to be helpful with what works to help me overcome flaws

That said, a woman I admire tremendously Stinne Kaastrup, sits slightly behind the vertical and rides beautifully, so body type plays a big role. ( Google her)

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Re: Improving position, biomechanics?

Postby Dresseur » Thu Jun 23, 2016 3:03 pm

Thank you Chisamba! I should say not necessarily back, but down. I hunch my shoulders forward instead of having a nice open sternum. Bringing my shoulder blades down flat helps this. You are right, when I bring my shoulders back as in the pic on Willie, I arch my back more.

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Re: Improving position, biomechanics?

Postby Linden16 » Thu Jun 23, 2016 4:37 pm

Hey Flight!

You are much too hard on yourself. You've got a wonderful base position and with only a few tweaks you can be much more connected and stable within your seat and core.

First of all, I can't believe no one commented on how you're crooked. Going left, you are left to the outside, your right seatbone and leg taking more weight than the inside. It hikes your left knee up a bit on the saddle and then in order to maintain your "balance" you start to close your upper leg and knee too much, without actually bringing your seat back to the center of the saddle. Then going right, you get left to the right, again unevenly loading your seat and stirrups.

This is really the first thing you need to address, and yes I think you need no stirrup time. Just take the stirrups off your saddle after your warmup, every day for a month. When you feel yourself getting left to the outside of the saddle, use counter flexion and get your horse's shoulder and spine realigned (overcompensate a bit) and use that adjustment in HIS body to help you literally move your seat back to the inside (so you're neutral again)

Being left to the outside cases your knees to pinch, your upper thigh to subsequently stiffen and disconnect from the saddle, and then your seat bounces because that's where the shock absorption occurs. Then, you lose alignment in your spine, which makes it very hard to stabilize your core, and THEN you roll your shoulders forward and collapse your chest (not badly for you, but its happening) That's what is making you "hand ride" a bit. Your horse is on your hands, not your seat. You are using reins for steering and speed control, which should be done by your seat and upper legs.

The length and suppleness of your upper leg is a HUGE determining factor on the hip angle and that is what determines the lower leg position. Remember that SP video where he's seen taking his legs off, back and down to relax and loosen his thigh? Do that. You need to constantly remind yourself that your upper thigh needs to be long and loose, and that will act as a shock absorber, so the "bounce" isn't jamming your feet against the stirrups and your seat to bounce out of the saddle.

Definitely some adjustments to make, but really concentrating on having an aligned spine, sitting squarely in the saddle, and keeping your horse between both reins and both legs will help tremendously. No one can sit quietly and effectively if they are crooked. You becoming straight will help you to keep your horse straight, and that's what will make him through, instead of right now he's really just yielding to the bit, instead of reaching up and open and lifting his withers.

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Re: Improving position, biomechanics?

Postby Linden16 » Thu Jun 23, 2016 4:43 pm

Also adding, You do NOT need to hold your tummy muscles tight (remember when people said 'cough' to feel how tight you should hold your core?' that's wrong. That creates tension and stiffness, causing more bouncing!) you only need to be as solid in your core as it takes to remain aligned and stable in your spine, so that turning, transitions etc don't cause you to be left behind the motion. Once you're straight, you let the horse move your seatbones, instead of moving your seatbones to drive the horse.

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Re: Improving position, biomechanics?

Postby Flight » Fri Jun 24, 2016 1:19 pm

Hey everyone, loving all these replies. I'm just going through them all to remember all the main points and I want to have another ride to feel things out before I reply.
Today it was sleeting sideways, so I just threw some extra hay to the horses and went back to the heater. Soft I know!! But tomorrow should be ok to ride.
Thanks so much to all of you!!

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Re: Improving position, biomechanics?

Postby Imperini » Sat Jun 25, 2016 2:42 pm

I haven't contributed because I don't really have anything constructive to say and I struggle with this myself but I did want to say I have really enjoyed this thread so far. Everyone should strive to improve themselves as they can, but I think your seat is quite nice Flight and the fact that you want to improve even more is great.

One thing that has helped me is being really conscious of my posture outside of the saddle. I have a long commute to work and I found that I was leaning toward the arm rest in the middle of the car for the whole ride and then becoming really crooked in general, once I stopped doing that my instructor commented that I was much straighter. I'm sure exercises to strengthen the right areas on non-riding days would also be quite helpful, so maybe for me that's the next thing to add in.

I have been taking jump lessons recently as I thought a change would be nice and the shorter stirrups have been a good break for my bad hips, and oddly enough I really feel like it has somehow improved my seat and sitting trot also though my back does take a little more abuse than it should due to the hips. The horse I ride regularly does not have big gaits at all so I thought that my improved sitting trot was just a fluke, but I have also recently started taking (flat) lessons on school horses some of which are big movers and I found that my seat, especially sitting trot, really has improved. It's encouraging, but still a long ways to go.

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Re: Improving position, biomechanics?

Postby demi » Sun Jun 26, 2016 2:41 am

This is a good thread. Lots of this stuff, once learned, still needs to be refreshed for various reasons.

I haven't been in a position to clinic or even take lessons for several years, but when I did, I pondered carefully bout the things that were pointed out to me. Charles deKunffy helped me with my back and even though i only had a few rides with him, his correction was so exactly right for me that it has stuck to this day. I've had other trainers try to make big corrections in my position but I don't think they were right for me and I never implemented them. As others have already pointed out in this thread, different body types, different horse body types, and the combinatons of both, make position a very personal thing. I think it is SO important to find what is right for one's particular situation.

Also, some 20 plus years ago (ouch), I took lunge lessons from Sidley Payne 3-4 times a week for three months. She worked me much like the personal trainer that I work with today, in that, she pushed me significantly harder than I would ever push myself. She and I were also built similarly so the things that she did herself also worked very well for me.

Someone else also pointed out in this thread, and I agree, that if you want to work on position, get help from someone who is known for good position.

And then, of course, the picures and videos are a big help. I like what Dresseur did with her pictures. I have done that in the past, long before computers had the kind of software available today. I used to just use real photos or drawings. Drawing myself helped in a unique way...

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Re: Improving position, biomechanics?

Postby Flight » Sun Jun 26, 2016 8:50 am

Right, I've had a couple of rides and tucking my bum more under, keeping a firmer middle and firmer thighs is definitely helping me. Most importantly, it's made me feel much more secure on my young horse, who I fight to stay in the saddle in rising trot and not to bash back down on his back. He truly launches me! But today, yes it's bouncy, but I had much more control over my body. I'm really happy!!
I just have to now figure out how to do this, but remain mobile in my joints.

Khall - yes the flattened back is SO much better, I just have to work out on allowing my hip and knee joints to bend while I bounce and remember not to cheat and lean back.

Dresseur - great photos!! Thanks so much for that and showing the progression as well as the alignment. You've made an impressive improvement! Ohh I have a long way to go to sort mine out, but it gives me a good way to analyse my position too. I am bouncing a fair bit, but I think that will tone down once I can stay stable for longer. Thanks again.

Chisamba, yes I agree, it looks like i'm collapsing back a bit. You're not being critical, it's exactly what I need :) Thanks for your help also. Stinna Kaastrup - wow, just wow!!

Linden - yes, I do find myself sliding to the outside. I think it may be related to my wonky leg (my right lower leg is at least 1 inch shorter than my left and less flexible through the foot and ankle) so with stirrups the same length, my left knee is higher, but by being not strong enough or flexible in my seat, I get pushed over. If that makes sense.
I've not thought about using counter flexion to get him to move me back over. I forgot to try this, I'll write it on my hand before next ride.

There seems to be 2 different views in how much strength you should hold in your thigh. So, you say it should be relaxed completely, or am I taking that too far and being too jelly fish like in the leg? That in fact there is tone, to keep your thigh on the saddle, but no gripping or squeezing?
My horse is definitely just "yielding to the bit". That is exactly describing what it feels like. :oops:
Keeping my bum under (flattened back) and sternum over belly button, I find I feel much more stable and don't have to do the cough/bear down thing to keep it. So, yes no tightening my belly muscles too tightly. (which is good, because that is exhausting!).

Imperini - funny you should mention being conscious of position outside riding. I have a long commute to work too, and I used to practice 'sitting up', but all I was doing was sticking my bum and chest out. This weekend, at the shops while I was standing/walking around I practiced keeping my bum under and standing straight that way :) I'm doing it now on the couch lol.

Demi - you had lessons with Charles deKunffy! How cool!!! Yes, my current instructor just sits so nicely and is so athletic, I don't think he knows what it's like not to be!!!

Thanks again everyone, given me a fair bit of stuff to work on. Hopefully in a while I can do another video to fix the next lot of problems :roll: :lol:

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Re: Improving position, biomechanics?

Postby Dresseur » Sun Jun 26, 2016 2:30 pm

Regarding the thigh, you have to have tone there. As far as how much, that's personal. By that I mean, my tone on a scale of 1-10 may be a 1 in normal work, through a 5 or 6 if the horse is pulling and I need to anchor myself more fully. But, I can also max out the abductor and adductor machines. So, you may have to have a 3 through a 10 or whatever until you get stronger. The point is that there is a range. But if your thigh is flopping, nothing anchors your hip to the saddle which muddies the seat aids and gives you no chance to resist a pull from the horse or momentary heaviness with your body, not reins.

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Re: Improving position, biomechanics?

Postby Ryeissa » Tue Jun 28, 2016 4:15 pm

Tone to me is strength, not grip. For me it also is aligning my thigh to lay across the flap in the proper orientation. As I said above, it helps me maintain a supportive seat that doesn't flop down so hard in the saddle and allows my horse to raise his back up under.

"Raise the jeans zipper/waste band in back down" is an image I use to achieve neutral pelvis.

I tell ya, these two ideas have achieved more towards success than anything else I have done. It's stable and easy at the same time.

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Re: Improving position, biomechanics?

Postby Flight » Tue Jun 28, 2016 9:31 pm

Thanks Dresseur, I've been experimenting with having some tone/strength in my thighs and how much. You're right, it depends on the horse and what it's doing! I definitely think previously I've had way too much relaxation in my all my muscles.

Ryeissa - I keep saying to myself "fanny up!" (fanny is our front bums here) to keep my pelvis rotated under, and popping my knees up over the saddle flaps really helps to bring my seat bones back under.

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Re: Improving position, biomechanics?

Postby Brydie » Wed Jun 29, 2016 7:56 am

Flight wrote:Ryeissa - I keep saying to myself "fanny up!" (fanny is our front bums here) to keep my pelvis rotated under, and popping my knees up over the saddle flaps really helps to bring my seat bones back under.


Natasha Althoff has a really good video as apart of her Dressage Mastery program on getting your seat bones and back in the right position. I need to start doing these exercises!!! One is lying on the floor and pushing the curve of your lower back into the floor. I'm going to start doing this wherever/wheneveer... it will take a long time to get to the point of "unconscious competence" but doing it off the horse as much as you can should really help. I started her program a year ago but stopped due to trying to save money. I'm picking it back up again now. July we start the "Prelim" module.

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Re: Improving position, biomechanics?

Postby Flight » Wed Jun 29, 2016 8:10 am

I'm a basic member (can't remember what level it is off the top of my head) of her dressage mastery. I like her! She's very enthusiastic :) I'll have to look at more of her vids. Thanks for that Brydie.

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Re: Improving position, biomechanics?

Postby mld02004 » Wed Jun 29, 2016 7:15 pm

Ryeissa wrote:Tone to me is strength, not grip. For me it also is aligning my thigh to lay across the flap in the proper orientation. As I said above, it helps me maintain a supportive seat that doesn't flop down so hard in the saddle and allows my horse to raise his back up under.

"Raise the jeans zipper/waste band in back down" is an image I use to achieve neutral pelvis.

I tell ya, these two ideas have achieved more towards success than anything else I have done. It's stable and easy at the same time.


Can you elaborate the zipper waist band idea? Sounds like a Mary thing. I have her books and audited a clinic, she's got some good visualizations.

Nothing really to add, but enjoying this thread.

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Re: Improving position, biomechanics?

Postby khall » Wed Jun 29, 2016 8:11 pm

When you activate the illiopsoas (composed of the psoas and the iliacus, this will tilt the pelvis into neutral position, raising the front of the pubic bone and flattening the lumbar spine. It also will rotate the thigh inward while opening up the hip joint, lengthening the thigh down. I like to think of stretching up in front and lifting the pubic bone while stretching down with the thigh to open the hip. I tend to not do too many visualizations, they just don't work for me. Telling me to relax my shoulders, breath or tilt my pelvis works for me, but I have been riding a long time and am pretty cognizant of my position issues.

In the book I mentioned above, they also talk about as riders engage their illiopsoas the horse will engage their illiopsoas. I am a firm believer in the study that horses will mirror their riders, so if a horse is dropping their left shoulder rider should be checking their left shoulder.

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Re: Improving position, biomechanics?

Postby Ryeissa » Thu Jun 30, 2016 4:28 pm

^^^ yes what Khall said. the zipper up waistband down helps the pelvis sit in the correct spot (if your issue is riding too much on the front- so this is not going to be the right thing for those that sit too heavy on the back of the saddle)

I like this because it's a definite movement that I can replicate and I clearly know what the trainer wants, and I know when I have achieved it.

Also I found that when I lift my sternum it activates the inner upper abs.

Yes, Kahll, riot will always come much more under my seat with this work. its riding with a correct seat. Really noting magical or super secret!

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Re: Improving position, biomechanics?

Postby Flight » Thu Jun 30, 2016 10:44 pm

I did some more vid yesterday, even watching as critically as i could I have to say there is a definite improvement already. I just look more stable, my thighs look stronger, my butt actually looks smaller! I don't slide off to the outside as much. My lower legs are still a bit dodgy, but when I get on I'm automatically going into the better position and can feel when I lose it.
Pretty happy :)


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