The "tells" of correct/incorrect work

[khall]

This has been on my mind lately for several reasons, I try to be aware of how my horses develop physically/conformationally to make sure that my work is making my horses better physically. Going horse shopping and having a friend who bought a young mare 18 months ago, I have been concerned with what I am seeing coming out of "dressage" barns. Also one of my clinic riders who came from a trainer that is known to a good many of you whose musculature showed horribly incorrect training, Mark was appalled by the conformational issues caused by the riding under said trainer. I am used to seeing big, muscular proud looking horses that look like athletes, with muscular toplines, tight abs and big butts and good strong loin. All of the work that we do facilitates this muscling, I have been surprised that the riders and trainers with horses that show dropped backs, no top line, weak loins, out behind are not paying attention to details. How can a horse be in self carriage if there is no top line? What say you guys? Do you study your horse's conformation to help determine how the training is going? I know some horses are naturally built "on the bit" types, but those of us with horses not so naturally endowed, has your training helped?

My biggest accomplishment with my big guy has been changing his neck conformation. He is naturally low set with a dip in front of the withers, the dip is pretty much gone and now he even just standing is carrying his neck higher. I do the in hand "reset the neck" as Mark called it and the trot-halt-RB-trot work really gets him UP and feeding him cookies in a manner that he raises his head and neck up out of his chest and lifts up in front. All practicing the posture I want him to maintain. My goodness though he is like standing next to a mountain when he raises that head and neck up!

[Flight]

I've had this drawn to my attention lately, how looking at the horse and seeing how it's developed will help tell you how it has been worked/trained.

I too am excited to see my little horses neck developing! He has a lower set neck and it was quite weedy for a half friesian. My instructor said that his neck would change, and I was doubtful but It's filling in at the base of his neck near his withers too!! Very cool.
My young horse is developing a bigger neck and thankfully developed back muscles. Not sure if it's just an age maturing thing, more than training, but it's developing in the right spots

[Chisamba]

I agree that correct muscling is an important aspect of training. However, without knowing what a horse looked like as a weedy youngster, it is not always fair to evaluate the mature horse.

I had a very very upside down horse come to me for training,. A couple of years of work altered his appearance and musculature dramatically, but even with as much good muscling as he could develop, he could not overcome the natural tendencies of his confirmation entirely .

My three girls are a good example,. My Kimba, who is working the best, has the leanest muscle and shortest hip, long loin, ratio. She is carrying more muscle through her loin to back, but I suspect even muscled to her maximum capacity, she will still look lean over the topline.

One of my favorite " tells" when I am riding a new horse is the mane. If it sorted very nearly draped to one side the horse is stiff and hollow,. If the mane attempts to split down the middle when being ridden, the horse had been ridden into equal contact and a suppleness. If the mane is even over part of the neck, and lays to one side at three shoulder, then the horse had been supplied in the neck, but not the shoulder and has probably been ridden front to back.

[exvet]

I remember hashing this topic out on the UDBB more than once over the many years. LOL..............for those of you who have a similar history do you remember when I asked, how far everyone thought this horse could go?



Does he have a proper top-line? Solid loin? LOL.....

I do think muscling and the development of the same tells a story. I also think one must know the beginning and all the background for that story to be accurate, not taken out of context and to really figure out the moral of said tale.

I was told by quite a few that he might make it to second level. I had a few surprised to find out that at the time the picture was taken the horse was competing solidly at third level, schooling fourth. I had a few get mad and insist that I was purposefully making the horse look worse than he was. I even have had many, one who posts here, insist that I would make this horse lame if I continued forcing him to do dressage. I purchased this horse as a two-year old and started him at three. He was at the time of purchase built downhill with the typical welsh cob curvy back. I had ridden and shown his dam and knew his sire (who had won in hand at USDF sport horse shows), neither had 'his' conformation; so, I presumed he would level out eventually............not so as you can see. I ended up earning my silver medal on this guy and sold him to a long-time acquaintance who earned her silver medal on him as well. He is 18 years old this year, still sound and still going strong.

I also love how I was told that this horse was a 'fluke', an exception, and.......yet here I am a few more horses (welsh cobs) down the road with proof of FEI capabilities in at least two more of them.........utilizing the same focus on the training.........

So, to the questions,

Do you study your horse's conformation to help determine how the training is going? I know some horses are naturally built "on the bit" types, but those of us with horses not so naturally endowed, has your training helped?

YES and YES

I also have to say that what Chisamba has observed often can be true but you also have to look at it in context. A horse braided isn't going to tell you much if you look at the mane alone............. Most of my critters have manes that look like this,



I think in addition to the obvious that is being discussed, it's still helpful to know the breed or type of horse you're evaluating in order to avoid false assumptions. Do not forget, too, the question of how long the horse has been in work, was it off for a while and recently returned to work (and thus have a pretty large base of education, just not in full condition/fit)? I also still will not and do not cast aspersions without watching the animal move, and truthfully, work (see it use itself). My dumpy little 13 hand pony looks quite different when he's being worked in hand in surcingle and bitting rig practicing piaffe and passage as opposed to just hanging out by the feed trough. His pot-bellied appearance with forelimbs shorter than his hind limbs tells a far different story than what story his frame tells when he's at work..............Few things can be accurately evaluated when done in a bubble or vacuum..............So again, I do regularly check my horses' muscling and conformation to determine how the training is going; but, I keep in mind what we had at baseline and more importantly the biomechanics of all the components when they are at work - motion, momentum, energy - providing a whole different perspective.

[demi]

Great post, exvet. Thanks for sharing that with us.

[Code3]

Great post, except. As part of our clinics, we take photos of our horses in order to compare at the next clinic to see how they are developing physically. This was brought home in a most humbling way when I brought my second horse, an Arabian, to the clinic for one day to get feedback. Well, be careful what you wish for! The clinician told me my horse's muscling was telling her he was not being worked correctly. I was absolutely crushed. Further conversation revealed that the clinician felt the horse was building top line but was not totally releasing the muscle in his bottom line. This was a new concept for me. The clinician's statement was that she didn't want us to be 80% correct, she wanted us to be 100% correct. We have adopted some new training which is allowing the Arab to truly release and it has been eye opening. I can hardly wait to see his photo in three months!

[Chisamba]

Well,. Then you come to another problem,. There is some agreement as to what correct muscling should look like, and some disagreement.

Some schools think a dropped belly shows correct suspension and others think that the horse should lift through the abdomen. I have seen people do " belly lifts" on their horses in cross ties and if course " carrot stretches" and a number of various manoeuvres. I honestly think correct work builds muscling naturally but the human desire to sculpt themselves in the gym carries over and perhaps it has value.

I used to do endurance riding and used dressage on my endurance horses to balance their natural tendency to use one side more than the other. It is better to be able to change leads regularly and be in better balance, even when doing road work.

[Flight]

Great post exvet!

I've seen some very average looking horses (not yours exvet!) look like totally different ones when they are being worked under saddle, it can be hard to judge.

[Grandiose]

Absolutely ^ My mare looked terrible just standing around. Everything looked strung out or saggy. But once in work she was gorgeous. She was such a lovely mover.

On the other hand I've seen beautiful horses posing, but get them under saddle and they move like pony.

[Chisamba]

Agree,. I have a stunning Hanoverian who looks lovely standing and moves like a pony . It is surprising. My old Irish mare liked like a sausage standing, and lovely when working.

Add my agreement to the above. She was also one who never quite muscled perfectly. She improved but one cannot change the underlying structure.

[HafDressage]

Exvet - I LOVE your post! Inspirational and awesome. I often find the people who are typically the most insistent that "alternative" horses or alternatively built horses can't make it up the levels or can't be successful are the people who aren't successful (or as successful as they want to be) themselves.

I think anyone would have to exercise caution being too judgemental about conformation alone unless you know the history of the horse. I think more accurately you can tell the quality of training either from conformation changes over time or from other problems/changes (like busy mouths, pinned ears, swishy tails).

[HafDressage]

Also, Exvet - Where do you find Welsh D's in the US? They seem pretty rare from what I can tell online. The one's I have seen seem to be on the west coast, which is super far from me.

[mari]

Aside from muscling, there are also "tells" if you are riding. For me, a horse that can't stay soft and steady and flexible in the bridle while doing simple t/w/t transitions (quite experienced horses, not babies), is a big tell of incorrect work. You can get a steady contact while in the gait, but not through a transition.

[no.stirrups]

I like to have a good look at my horses immediately after pulling the saddle off. The muscles that have worked will be plumped from the increased blood flow. It's a short-lived effect, but it gives an idea what they will look like in a few weeks or months after those muscles have grown in a permanent way.

[exvet]

HafDressage - so not to derail the thread, I have many welsh cob breeder friends. They are equally represented on both coasts and a few in Canada too. I sold my stallion to my daughter and sold my last broodmare in January....... up until then I was breeding both purebreds and half-breds and I'm in Arizona. If you are interested I can give you the contact info for my breeder friends who are still putting foals on the ground here in North America. I still retain breeding rights to the stallion who is third generation of my breeding program. I will likely breed one more time. I fell into welsh cobs well over 25 years ago and haven't looked back since.

[Tsavo]

Specific abnormal muscling patterns can also be used to indicate types of physical problems horse have which may or may not be related to riding. I do't know what the patterns are but vets have made reference that they exist. For example, a certain type of abnormal muscling is associated with distal tarsitis (hocks) which confusingly overlaps with other issues. So it may not always point to one unique issue.

[khall]

The reason I have been contemplating this issue is the two horses that friends have bought or are vetting out, both were "dressage" horses, one that is now at my barn came from a pro rider. Her mane looks like exvet's horse's mane and she is the worst of any of the horses that I ride with unequal contact and bit issues. She lays pretty heavily right shoulder/rt rein. She was incredibly out of wack in her back when she first came. She has put on probably 200 lbs since she has gotten here, was very thin, wasp waisted and weak loin. She is a long backed horse, slightly butt high with straighter hind legs but huge shoulders. (perch/TB X) nice shape to her neck and not high set but not low set either. Wants to carry it level. I could not believe the condition she was in when she got here, 5 hour trailer ride should not pull that much weight off of a horse. Did not take long for her to blossom and fill out with good grass, now she is like the rest of mine on a perpetual diet! She went from a A type of saddle tree to the biggest U tree that Reactor Panel makes.

The OTTB that my friend is vetting out is just flat out skinny, with no top line muscle at all. He is long off the track so that is not an excuse, it just floors me to see a horse that thin being asked to work. He too needs to gain 100-200 lbs. Owned by a AA but who takes lessons with GP rider. Poor horsemanship IMO on both accounts.

The clinic rider's horse again she rides with GP trainer/rider, horse in good flesh but with severely dropped back, almost to the point of sway back and he is an Arab, how in the hell with a short backed Arab do you compress and ride the horse in such a way to drop his back like that?

Exvet I disagree with you on your Cob, he IMO has a good long hip, strong loin, yes extremely down hill but with his good hind legs and loin/hip I can see why he was able to do as you asked. I am sure collection was still hard to get though with his conformation. Conformation, breed, age, movement etc all play a role in how they muscle up, but muscle up they should with good correct work. You should see that muscle on the top of the neck in front of the withers shape like a triangle, there should be muscling around and behind the withers. I personally think the tight abs shows a horse that uses its sling to engage behind and raise up in the front. (I see exvets older g with a good bottom line, no pot belly there). With my broodmares that are also riding horses, I do see issues with the stretched bottom line dropping their back some so I have to be mindful of working them to ask them to engage their core (don't do carrot stretches etc I just feed my big guy cookies with him elevating in front just for fun) with in hand work i.e. lateral work.

I disagree about the manes as per chisamba, all of my riding horses have thin manes except one and I thin hers down so they all lie to one side only. Pretty dang sure my big guy nor is his sister stiff and hollow! My 2 yr old filly is the only one with long luxurious mane that flops to either side, she has not been in work as of yet.

[exvet]

Exvet I disagree with you on your Cob, he IMO has a good long hip, strong loin,

I never said he didn't have a good hind end. In fact, I've always attested to the fact that his engine is pretty darn good. That and his attitude were why we succeeded in attaining the goals I had. Yes, certain things were hard; but, he was willing and I believed in him. While genetics play a huge part in his framework (conformation), here is a picture of him standing tied to the trailer at age 3. Not the best angle but I think it still demonstrates a young horse whose loin isn't developed yet.



Here is another picture of Monty, similar to the first one I posted and taken on the same day many years and many miles later.



You should see that muscle on the top of the neck in front of the withers shape like a triangle, there should be muscling around and behind the withers. I personally think the tight abs shows a horse that uses its sling to engage behind and raise up in the front.

You mean like this (Obviously the picture was taken a while ago and when Monty was showing at second level, 2006 I think)?



And no, Monty isn't the pot-bellied one....but this guy is when he's just standing around.....here he's using his belly pretty well...



but this is what he looks like hanging out lol



Here is his 'overall' conformation. He's been shown PSG and is schooling I-1. I'm not sure his muscling tells me much other than he's still a stinker but oh can he sit. He's another one of my fit fat kids.

[Dresseur]

I think that this is a very interesting thread.

I do think that there are things that you just can't fix, but overall, if you are working the horse correctly, you can tell in the musculature. For instance, a naturally ewe necked horse may never have the topline that a horse "born on the bit" will have, but they will build muscle up in front of their withers and will lose the bulge in the neck. A very wasp waisted horse may never totally loose that look, but they will build up ab muscles and muscles across the loin.

I think the thing to remember is that unless we ask, we don't know where the horse is in the developmental/training stages. I remember posting a video on the UDBB of the horse that I had just taken over in training. He had a huge under neck bulge, incredibly weak loins, and a sagging belly - on top of that, he had an extremely lateral canter. People were pretty convinced that I was training him incorrectly. In 3 years time, he looked like a "real" dressage horse, and the gaits changed dramatically. The lateral canter became true to the point where he had learnt a single clean change and was on his way to 4 tempis.

What was interesting was the iterations his body went through. First, he lost the incorrect muscle. This made him look skinny and weedy. Then, he started to build the proper muscle, which took much longer to build, then it took for him to loose the "bad" muscling. But most interesting of all - the changes in his back. He had a very poor back/loin connection. In fact, I had to use a 3" riser pad to make the saddle sit level. He was almost sway backed. Over the course of those 3 years, his back built up to the point where I didn't need to use ANY riser pad and he completely lost the dip in front of his withers.

[Chisamba]

Arabs are a breed where many lines genetically carry a dropped/ sway back,. Which no amount if riding will correct. I was not at all surprised to hear of lordosis in an Arabian. Despite saddle fitting issues it has no effect on soundness health it ability as a riding horse.

Again I caution,. ( Underweight excluded) it is easy to be wrong and judgemental about muscling unless you saw the horses original conformation . My son's first pony was a very sway backed Arabian. He never had a days sore back and was happy to be ridden well into his twenties. Even manes can be wrong.

[piedmontfields]

Interesting thread! I actually thought this was going to go in another direction, in relation to development and movement/performance, but maybe that will be another thread.

I do think some horses/conformation types are a lot more rewarding in offering visible transformation from correct work than others. I have become more aware of this since I have a horse who is hard to transform!

The biggest change two years of different and hopefully more correct work has yielded in Emi's body is the smoothing out of her neck. As an Iberian type, she has a big, chunky neck. In the past, she clearly spent a lot of time behind the bit/overbent. One sign of this was that from above, her neck actually was somewhat broader towards her ears, then dipped in to become narrower in the middle and then broadened out again. Very funky. Her neck is now fairly "smooth". I would not call it a perfect wedge, but it is headed that direction. She still doesn't have the beautiful "tube" in the upper neck that ExVet's horses show. Emi's is more like a sketched in tube than a solid arc of muscle.

While I do train her (thin) mane to lie on one side, when she is working and relaxed, it will now "pop up" and adjust when she flips her crest. It used to be a bit lifeless.

[khall]

Ok I thought I had posted a long post but apparently it went poof so here goes again.

Chisamba, I did not know of lodorsis in Arabians, have seen it in TB, WB and of course ASBs. This horse though was not true sway back he just looked that way. I got to see the first lesson with Mark and the horse which was in the barn aisle in hand with no saddle on. He focused on getting the horse to release the neck down to raise the back up and then once got the horse more comfortable with this he asked him to move his feet in the new released posture. You could see the horse's back raise up right behind the withers with the released neck. Rider was able to work with Mark with this horse several times over 18 months and his back got stronger and more raised as he went on.

I have also seen again at a clinic this time with Mark and our resident DVM working with a horse together. Horse came in with extremely dropped back, aged QH type. DVM used chiro to raise the back by 4 " (was absolutely amazing) then Mark showed the rider in hand work (did not allow her to ride that clinic due to the drastic change) to support that raised back. The SI work/posture to step the inside hind under center mass. Rider recently commented that her horse's back had stayed raised with the work she had followed from Mark.

The TB that my friend and I went to see, I got to watch go under saddle and also ride him (love the horse) skinny no top line etc. Rider rode horse broken at C3-C4, compressed neck, flat back and out behind. BTW horse was getting 20's for scores CT and high 60's at training level dressage. Nice moving horse but incorrectly ridden. I got on him and was able to get him in a lower frame with head and neck out and down, horse was happy to give it a go and I could feel his back unlock a bit and come up. Lovely moving horse that with correct work will be incredible, so hoping he vets out and we get to make changes in him! Looking at the some of the other horses in the barn, AA rider riding under GP trainer, all of the horses had no muscling in front of the withers or right behind the withers and they were not skinny like the TB was.

One of the other changes I have been able to make with my big guy is to change his cow hocked stance. https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid ... =3&theater this is him at 4, you can see how cow hocked he is. Now with work he stands straighter behind. That lateral work again! One of our other riders with an Arabian who came in weak top line, cow hocked and flat backed too commented on her horse straightening up behind and his loin/HQs have gotten so much stronger over the years. He is a lovely moving horse with some natural dressage talent that when he first came could not canter!

I am in the process of bringing back my older mare, she has lost so much muscling and top line this last year. 10 months in a stall from founder, pulling so much weight off of her, coupled with early Cushings and two previous years being ridden by beginner rider who could not put her together and her top line is non existent. She's moving well so now it will be just putting the work into her and building her back up slowly. I should take pictures now and then later for educational purposes.

[Grandiose]

Khall, it would be great if you would document your mares progression!

I had a little (15.2h) Arab/ASB cross. He always looked dressage fit, as in round and elastic. One clinician got excited when we came into the arena because she thought he was a Swedish Warmblood. Alas no!

[piedmontfields]

Khall, the more I read about your training, I keep thinking you might find Manolo Mendez' work very intriguing. I just got a DVD from him on in hand work and am really appreciating the details. I am hoping to train myself to do some basic work in hand to use over the winter when I sometimes hurt too much to ride (but my mare needs to move for comfort).

[khall]

Piedmont. I have Manola's DVD though am having issues getting it it play on the computer. I also have the ones with Manola's and Kerry Ridgeway.

There are some differences between the work I did with Mark and Manola's work. Most of what we do/did and I still do is with the bridle not off the caveson. Though I did use the caveson when my big guy was much younger. He is way passed that in his education now. Manola is actually coming to TX to a farm that Mark taught at. Hycourt Farm where Jillian Krinbring is based out of. A friend and I while attending Jillian's biomechanics lecture a couple of years ago turned Jillian on to Mark. Mark believed in using the bit to educate the horse and be able to release the jaw and the C1/C2 and release the neck to promote relaxation in the horse.

[Ryeissa]

There are a ton of cobs showing at the dressage pony cup in Kentucky! Lovely horses.
Nice to see a wide variety of breeds and types!

[ProudHorse]

Khall, you have a PM

[leheath8]

I definitely try to monitor the muscular development of my horse to check that we are going in the right direction. I have noticed a significant increase in the triangular muscle at the base of her neck, so I think we are on the right track.

This is Luna 12 months ago just after I bought her as a just started 4 yo. She is a little fuzzy and her mane is partly on this side, but I still think you can see the musculature OK.


And here is a photo of her today. She has a lot of Shagya-Arabian blood so I don't know if we will ever completely get rid of the muscles on the bottom of the neck as her natural way of going is pretty high headed (see next photo). I can only influence her for ~1 hour 5 days per week!


Her natural approach to life - ready for cross country!

[ElaPe]

To me an incorrectly worked horse is:

- lacking muscles
- may have hanging belly
- sway back
- thick muscles on the bottom of the horse's neck
- too fat or too thin

While riding:

- seems to be stiff, unable to relax
- dragging its feet, not bending its legs
- moving as if being asleep or running around like crazy
- counterflexed or overflexed all the time
- short, choppy movement
- not accepting the bit and contact and fighting it
- pinning its ears and unhappy face

[Bats79]

Great post, except. As part of our clinics, we take photos of our horses in order to compare at the next clinic to see how they are developing physically. This was brought home in a most humbling way when I brought my second horse, an Arabian, to the clinic for one day to get feedback. Well, be careful what you wish for! The clinician told me my horse's muscling was telling her he was not being worked correctly. I was absolutely crushed. Further conversation revealed that the clinician felt the horse was building top line but was not totally releasing the muscle in his bottom line. This was a new concept for me. The clinician's statement was that she didn't want us to be 80% correct, she wanted us to be 100% correct. We have adopted some new training which is allowing the Arab to truly release and it has been eye opening. I can hardly wait to see his photo in three months!

I find this an interesting statement. Many modern dressage trainers seem to want horses to "drape" the neck and develop a swan like carriage. They want the top to develop and the lower part of the neck to reduce. To me this isn't natural.

A horse spends 20+ hours per day using it's neck "naturally". That means it uses the neck as a lever and a brace and (unless it has an injury) there should be a balancing effect and look to the neck but not really a "disappearance" of the under neck.

This is my first stallion as a lightly worked 4yo


And then as a Grand Prix competing 9yo stallion (unfortunately it is hard to see the topline of his back but as you can see he still has a solid "under neck")

[leheath8]

Wow Bats79, what a beautiful development shown in your stallion! What breed is he?

Bats79, your thoughts/comments on the neck muscling are interesting and something I was wondering about. As you say, the horse spends much more time using its neck naturally than it does working (correctly or otherwise) with us. Is it really possible/realistic, if the horse is naturally rather high headed (like mine and your stallion), to completely get rid of the under neck muscling when we ride at most a few hours a week? What do others think of this concept?

Code3 - would you be willing to share the photos that the clinician said showed incorrect work (and why)? What is your Arabian's natural head carriage? What was the new training there permitted the true releases?

[Dresseur]

I personally like to see a balanced neck when standing and at liberty. If there is zero muscling underneath, I wonder about how much turnout etc the horse is getting. However, when in motion, that neck needs to be soft underneath there. So, while the horse may have strength in the under neck, they cannot go to it in the ridden work. If they are, it's a sure sign that they are bracing somewhere, either against the hand, or holding back in the body.

I may have said this before, but my coach says to make the horse light in the withers, not in the mouth, and to me, that speaks to the horse using it's body properly - having the withers "lifted" by proper use of the thoracic sling and stomach and back muscles of the horse, as well as free motion forward. I've felt horses that are light in the mouth only - and to me, it's an odd feeling, and most of the time, they are not muscled correctly. Bat's stallion is a beautiful example.

[leheath8]

Dresseur - I like that point of view regarding the neck muscles. It seems logical to me that, at rest, it is natural for the horse to have some under neck muscling depending on their conformation, lifestyle, and natural bearing, but that it should be soft when in motion while being ridden.

[Flight]

Lovely horse Bats!
Good discussion on necks, I agree and like leheath8 says, look for the underneck to be soft when ridden.

[Bats79]

He was a jumping bred stallion - Holsteiner stallion Romedio (Rigoletto - Ramzes x Waldenser XX - Fandango) out of an "old blood" TB mare.

It might help to note that this horse was born 36 years ago and was trained in purely "classical" ways - including cross training with jumping. There was never any bracing into over bent position.

[ProudHorse]

This is an article I helped Manolo write on what the horse's topline says about horse and rider. It has some pointers. I also wrote an article about what the horse's body says but its turning into a booklet so not sure when that will come out. I think we have to look at muscular development and posture and look statically and dynamically, on the lunge and under saddle to fully appreciate how well a horse is doing physically.

http://www.manolomendezdressage.com/wp/ ... Mendez.pdf

RIght now there is a summer deal on the DVD mentioned on this thread.