Goals and progress... August and September!

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Dresseur
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Re: Goals and progress... August and September!

Postby Dresseur » Fri Aug 12, 2016 9:06 pm

So far so good on my goals, at least the counter canter part of it. The exercise my coach gave me, and continued tweaking to my position is quickly solving the lack of counter canter on the one side. We can now confidently do loops on both reins. I'm going to try to take it to a full loop in the next day or two and see what happens.

Our lengthenings are going more slowly, but I'm taking my time there, the trot halts are going super well. But a lot of that is just him and how balanced he is naturally.

I've also asked him to come up and out a bit more, was unhappy that he was a bit behind the vertical and a bit curled. It may be a touch on the high side right now, but I'll take it. I'm continuing to tweak my position, and in the trot am as happy as I've ever been. Canter has a bit to go yet. But it's getting better.

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StraightForward
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Re: Goals and progress... August and September!

Postby StraightForward » Sat Aug 13, 2016 2:51 am

I will just leave this here:

Image
Image
Keep calm and canter on.

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Re: Goals and progress... August and September!

Postby Anne » Sat Aug 13, 2016 5:11 am

Woo-hoo SF!! You both look very chilled, well done.

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Re: Goals and progress... August and September!

Postby Rosie B » Sat Aug 13, 2016 1:47 pm

Woohoo!!!!! SF - That is a HUGE milestone!!! Congratulations! :)

The first time I sat on Bliss was bareback as well. :)

Dresseur - you guys look fabulous as always. :)

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Re: Goals and progress... August and September!

Postby Sue B » Sat Aug 13, 2016 4:50 pm

YaY straightforward! :D :D :D :D :D

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Re: Goals and progress... August and September!

Postby Josette » Sat Aug 13, 2016 7:10 pm

Dresseur - may I ask what exercise and position tweak you applied to work on your counter canter issue?

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Re: Goals and progress... August and September!

Postby Dresseur » Sat Aug 13, 2016 7:22 pm

Josette wrote:Dresseur - may I ask what exercise and position tweak you applied to work on your counter canter issue?


Sure. In terms of position, I realized that I was really twisting my hip in an effort to maintain the lead, when I did that, I was no longer able to keep him driving honestly up. So, I have to ride the canter as if I'm going straight (duh) and make no major movements in my hips or legs in order to hold the lead.

The exercises were that first I had to do the shallow counter canter loops, making sure that he had a moment or two of straightness before turning him back towards the wall. At first, I held him straight for several strides and made the loop very gradual. Then I started sharpening up the loop with 2-3 strides of straight before turning back to the wall. When that was going well, I still had issues with the full loop - he wants to push his shoulder over and swap up front. So, I had to make sure to hold the shoulders in line with his hips, and the exercise that broke through to him and I was to come around the short side, do a very short diagonal and get to the long side asap - then cc down the long side. At first I'd do a transition before hitting the next short side, but today I was able to hold cc around the entire short side. Basically, with the long side wall, I was able to hold him straight and get the full benefit of the cc.

So, IMO, this part of my goal has been a resounding success, as he successfully did his full loops on both leads today as though he's been doing them all his life.

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Re: Goals and progress... August and September!

Postby Josette » Sat Aug 13, 2016 8:18 pm

Thank you Dresseur - you are making lovely progress with your youngster. The counter canter on the short side is difficult for us so I had gone back to shallow serpentine. I've had to take a break from riding due to extreme heat over 100 today so catching up on reading training posts and videos.

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Re: Goals and progress... August and September!

Postby Flight » Sun Aug 14, 2016 1:13 am

I'm not even game to attempt any CC yet with my young Andy x!! So that is great progress Dresseur :) Love the photos, you both look great as always!
Same with you Rosie, Bliss looks good and so do you!

Demi, hoping Emma is ok. I'm behind on this thread, but am reading everyone's posts!

My car is unsound still, wont be fixed until the end of the month, so I miss out on another comp. I may not be able to do any for the rest of the year now. I was disappointed but I'm keen to have a crack at a medium level test, so it just gives me more time to give it a better crack :)

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Re: Goals and progress... August and September!

Postby Brydie » Sun Aug 14, 2016 8:55 am

Yay SF :D

Dresseur - lovely as always!

Flight - I know how you feel! Exciting about doing medium!!!

Had a very frustrating show today. (Probably shouldn't have entered one a month after bringing Red back to full work!) Rode like s*** in the first test... think I need to get to as many shows as possible because it's like I forget how to ride at a show! I think I deserved 57.5% in the 1:1. Felt like I rode and he went so much better in the second test... but only scored 57.885%. Honestly this really upset me and has the feelings of giving up!

Are we really that bad???

Prelim 1:1 - https://youtu.be/XPOP6qFjAVg
Collectives comments - (Judge at C) regular, much more freedom, much more impulsion + more relaxation through back, calm *something* more supple + more in front of riders aids. (Judge at E) paces need to show more activity, needs to be more through in contact, more impulsion + connection to bridle.

Prelim 1:2 - https://youtu.be/e-UNeeGeMb0
Collectives comments - intermittent irregularity shown in trot (she had this for both changes of rein - am I blind I don't see or felt any?), too often hollow in the back and needs to generate pushing power from the 1/4s.

We school Novice and starting parts of Elementary at home I just don't know where I'm going wrong... (I know the canter's not great, but going to be doing a lot more work on that!)

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Re: Goals and progress... August and September!

Postby Flight » Sun Aug 14, 2016 10:24 am

I thought both tests were quite nice, he is really sweet and steady and yes the 1.2 he had better activity. I would have thought you'd have scored in the 60s. I think you are riding in tough competition too, to be honest.
You're doing everything right, now you just need more of everything :) Isn't dressage great!
But seriously, he just needs to be hotter off your leg for novice, (I had to get this with my little black horse, if the judge can see you having to use your leg all the time then they know they're not in front of your leg. It's worth fixing now if you want to progress, otherwise you are always having to push and kick) and just needs to be more supple. This will happen as you do more of the lateral stuff. Do lots of lateral stuff, seriously it helps so much.
I know the feeling you have, when you get a crap mark and feel like shit. I get that all the time, but you haven't had him back in full time work for very long and there's lots of nice stuff in your vids :)

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Re: Goals and progress... August and September!

Postby Josette » Sun Aug 14, 2016 11:38 am

Brydie - I too thought you had nice rides and it was tough scoring. Flights comments also apply to my situation to get my guy more reactive off my leg. He is not a youngster but a project who came with lots of negative training baggage - much more than I realized at the time. We always go back to basics when we get stuck. It is a work in progress of 2 steps forward and then 1 step back.

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Re: Goals and progress... August and September!

Postby demi » Sun Aug 14, 2016 12:38 pm

Good job Brydie! Considering that Red is just back into work after a long time, I am impressed with his attitude. AND his halts, all four of them, we're beautiful! I agree with Flight's comments on how to improve as you continue with him. I too, think you should have gotten in the 60's for the second test, but don't even worry about it. Really. I could tell by the look on your face that your were nervous and, of course, that had an effect on how you rode. You have a lot going for you and you will improve.

I think you posted recently that you were working on "getting the static out" and if you continue to think about it, as well as practice it, it will help a lot. Keep working at it and keep appreciating what a nice boy you have.

Thanks for sharing your vids!

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Re: Goals and progress... August and September!

Postby demi » Sun Aug 14, 2016 1:18 pm

Thanks for the update pictures, Dresseur. It's a pleasure to watch you and MIro progress.

I appreciated your reply to Josette's question about your position tweak and exercises for CC. Especially this part:

Dresseur wrote:... In terms of position, I realized that I was really twisting my hip in an effort to maintain the lead, when I did that, I was no longer able to keep him driving honestly up. So, I have to ride the canter as if I'm going straight (duh) and make no major movements in my hips or legs in order to hold the lead...


Even with as "static free" as your riding appears, just that little tiny bit of twisting in your hip was enough interference to keep you from driving him honestly up. The particular CC exercises that worked for you may be somewhat specific to your situation, but correcting your position the way you did is something that works in all situations, I think. The more correctly we ride, the better our horses will go. Thanks for sharing. Your riding really inspires me!

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Re: Goals and progress... August and September!

Postby Dresseur » Sun Aug 14, 2016 2:15 pm

Thanks Demi :)

That's exactly why I keep pushing and tweaking my position- to make things as clear as they can be for him. Right now, I have the right angles in the trot and I'm pretty happy with things- (not saying that there's nothing to fix, because there absolutely is!), in the canter I still have a tendency to leave my hip behind me. And, in certain movements, I have a tendency to "panic" because I'm so worried that it will go wrong- and I will contort a bit in an effort to get things done. The counter canter is an example of this. The more confident I get that my seat is doing what it's supposed to be, and delivering horse up, the more I just sit and ride- which is a huge reason the counter canter is starting to work.

I'll say that the more nuanced the tweaks get, the more I'm humbled by how much horses give to us as they try to sort through the static and conflicting aids we give them as we work on ourselves. I've always felt that it is encumbant on the rider to work on themselves, but now I am more firmly rooted to the belief that it is a must- and that working on position, rather than movements will net the biggest changes in the horse.

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Re: Goals and progress... August and September!

Postby Brydie » Sun Aug 14, 2016 9:03 pm

Thanks everyone :)

Flight - I think one of your tuning up sessions is in order for us! We've always had trouble with forward, I always say yep we're going to sort this out but it never seems to happen? I suppose I need to sort it out in my own head and be determined to work on him getting in front of my leg.

Demi - yes! But I seemed to have forgotten about it :\. Want to only be doing something when I give an aid and he needs to respond to that aid. Will have to put this back in my mind.

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Re: Goals and progress... August and September!

Postby Moutaineer » Mon Aug 15, 2016 2:18 am

Report from this weekend...

We showed this afternoon. Wasn't entirely sure we were going to make it with the series of mishaps we had this morning ( starting at 2a.m. when our smoke alarms malfunctioned... nothing like having to climb ladders in the middle of the night to get you in the mood for athletic endeavors.) I think I discovered the reason when I left this morning. Our electrical transformer was lying on its back at the end of the driveway... Trainer threw her back out, barn mates trailer had a flat, AC on my truck died.

So we finally got to the venue an hour and a half away, boiled and disheveled and a little short on time. After a brief warm up, we head into the ring to do 2.3. Things are going pretty well until we are coming round the corner for the halt and rein back in front of the judges box... Laddie does a Barney worthy spook and the next thing I know we are at X. The judge, bless him, calls me over and tells me to go back a movement and do over. Apparently whatever caused the spook was his fault.

So on we go. We had some really nice work, and some so so work, and came out with a 64. An 8 for rider position and effectiveness (I think he was as astonished as I was that I didn't fall off,) and an 8 for one of our counter canter serpentines.

Our simple changes just didn't happen for some reason, so that's this weeks homework!

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Re: Goals and progress... August and September!

Postby Chisamba » Mon Aug 15, 2016 4:30 am

Rosie B wrote:a couple more (and sorry for the double post).. seems I can only put 3 pics in a post.


You look fabulous. So does Bliss.

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Re: Goals and progress... August and September!

Postby Chisamba » Mon Aug 15, 2016 4:40 am

Brydie wrote:Yay SF :D

Dresseur - lovely as always!

Flight - I know how you feel! Exciting about doing medium!!!

Had a very frustrating show today. (Probably shouldn't have entered one a month after bringing Red back to full work!) Rode like s*** in the first test... think I need to get to as many shows as possible because it's like I forget how to ride at a show! I think I deserved 57.5% in the 1:1. Felt like I rode and he went so much better in the second test... but only scored 57.885%. Honestly this really upset me and has the feelings of giving up!

Are we really that bad???

Prelim 1:1 - https://youtu.be/XPOP6qFjAVg
Collectives comments - (Judge at C) regular, much more freedom, much more impulsion + more relaxation through back, calm *something* more supple + more in front of riders aids. (Judge at E) paces need to show more activity, needs to be more through in contact, more impulsion + connection to bridle.

Prelim 1:2 - https://youtu.be/e-UNeeGeMb0
Collectives comments - intermittent irregularity shown in trot (she had this for both changes of rein - am I blind I don't see or felt any?), too often hollow in the back and needs to generate pushing power from the 1/4s.

We school Novice and starting parts of Elementary at home I just don't know where I'm going wrong... (I know the canter's not great, but going to be doing a lot more work on that!)


I loved his quiet relaxed work. Your score will improve when he is a touch rounder and abtouch more uphill, with a less active leg.

I think your score was probably a little low . I too preferred his energy in the second test.

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Re: Goals and progress... August and September!

Postby Dresseur » Mon Aug 15, 2016 8:50 pm

Brydie, I do think that a more generous judge would have given higher marks. That being said... I can see what the judge is calling irregularity on that second test. I think that it's more him bumping the bridle a bit and it showing in the gait- it's a symptom of lack of throughness. I liked the energy much better in the second test, and because of that, his shape. What I think will improve things for you is that I get the sense that it is held a bit backwards - I would take that energy and then push forward with the reins, if I need to hold, I'd be getting those shoulders back and down. That will create a rounder look vs the topline being a bit on the flat side. The other thing that will help immeasurably is to quiet your leg. If he tolerates the whip, use it. The bumping of the leg (intentional or not) is distracting to the overall picture, and judges will think that he's not honestly forward. But, I think for the first month's work after time off, you're doing well, lots to be proud of!

For Miro updates, he is doing SUPER on trails. Totally loose rein, not an ounce of tension to be found. Here's a little ride-along :)
http://youtu.be/DmfTDadqzGg

Up the hill:
http://youtu.be/o4wvj4Blb68

and his nemesis, water:
http://youtu.be/sYR0-mwugGc

For the trot/halts - someday, many years from now, this will be a piaffe :lol:
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and other than that eventually he won't be bearing down, I can't ask for more at this point in the work:
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Re: Goals and progress... August and September!

Postby Brydie » Tue Aug 16, 2016 7:03 am

Thanks Dresseur! I used the whip about 3 or 4 times in the test (first time actually using it in a test! But I was determined for him to be active (hence the overactive legs). I WILL GET HIM HOT OFF MY LEG IF IT'S THE LAST THING I DO (starting tomorrow after his couple of days off). Light leg, not good enough response WHACK! Come back, repeat until he responds how I would like. I think I'm too easy on him. I used to create energy but "let it escape" out the front. My instrcutor always says don't let it out in front! I feel if I pushed my hands forward he would just become long as that's the way he'd rather be. My shoulders are my most hated position flaw :( ugh it's all feeling too hard right now and I'm only at prelim! How do I even work on throughness? First shows our comments were needs more forward/round and I thought we'd improved a lot on that. Was a mistake going to a show which is basically people's last show before state champs where all the fancy warmbloods were. I was very much out of place... I needed the experience for ME though sigh.

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Re: Goals and progress... August and September!

Postby Flight » Tue Aug 16, 2016 9:28 am

Brydie, I'll try and not get too long winded here but I learned heaps on my 4 month working student placement and now I have a really different view on training.

Long story short, the classical dressage training stuff is the best. All that talk about lateral flexion to get longitudinal flexion - it works.
I used to think of training in terms of competition. For example, start at prelim. Yep can do that, so start on novice.. yep can do that.. now start elementary.. and so on. Which will work, but slowly. Watching the guy train horses, he restarted a few and in-hand they were doing shoulder in/half pass and working towards half steps all before he got on their backs.
My big 4yo? He will only do prelim comps this year (and most of next) but in training we do all the lateral movements in walk and trot. Shoulder in/quarters in on a circle, baby half passes, because all that lateral stuff does is improve your basic paces of w/t/c. In the past I would have never have started him on lateral work (other than leg yield, and that's mostly so I can do the gate off his back) until much later.

As I said, I thought your prelim tests were fine. You can do prelim. He is relaxed, has rhythm, accepts the contact.. so time to move on and getting him responding well to your aids and much more supple.
I don't know who your instructor is, and how often you get to have lessons etc, but if you can get to one that is more classically inclined, it is well worth it.
Don't despair!! Dressage is bloody hard, and lots of us only get tiny breakthroughs or improvements at a time and I've often felt like it was all too hard as well. I'm much happier with my riding now, being less competition driven (still want to compete though!) and being more aware of the process the training is doing to my horses.

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Re: Goals and progress... August and September!

Postby Flight » Tue Aug 16, 2016 9:30 am

Dresseur - love Miro's ears in the water, checking out both sides of him :)
Yep, he's going to have an amazing piaffe!! Very cool.

Mountaineer, that sounds like a very eventful weekend. Too eventful! Glad you stayed on the spook, I would have been off :D

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Re: Goals and progress... August and September!

Postby Dresseur » Tue Aug 16, 2016 12:57 pm

Brydie wrote:I think I'm too easy on him. I used to create energy but "let it escape" out the front. My instrcutor always says don't let it out in front! I feel if I pushed my hands forward he would just become long as that's the way he'd rather be. My shoulders are my most hated position flaw :( ugh it's all feeling too hard right now and I'm only at prelim!


Brydie, don't despair! Things will start clicking soon enough! In any case, I've highlighted this particular part because it's part of the key. Your instructor is right in asking you to set a boundary and ask him to work within it. However, backward pulling tends to override leg aids (preaching to the choir, I know :lol: ). So, how do you contain without pulling? SHOULDERS! SHOULDERS! SHOULDERS! and back. and seat. He is changing his frame when you give or push forward because he's not being held on your back.

Have you ever done the exercise where someone puts a longe line around your hips, stands in front of you and pulls the line while you're in rider position (knees bent, stacked spine, elbows bent etc)? If not, have someone do this, or do a refresher. You will find that when someone pulls on that - you will either stay put or fall forward. If you are falling forward, it means that you have given in the core, or given in the back (hollowed back and tipped pelvis), or given in the shoulders or all of the above.

To resist... shoulders back and down, and engage the core - you'll stay put against a fair amount of pressure. Then, have the person let go suddenly - if you fall back - it means you were leaning back. Rinse - repeat until you don't fall backwards on the release. THAT is what you need to have in the saddle. Now - have that same person pull on you with your shoulders back... now round your shoulders slightly... you will instantly fall forward. Shoulders are key in stabilizing yourself against a horse that is wanting to be heavy - which enables your hands and arms to stay pushing forward. See. It's not the HANDS that create the boundary - it's the shoulders, back and seat of the rider. I say seat because if the thigh is not anchored (NOT GRIPPING, just anchored) in the saddle, you will also fall forward. That's not to say that I won't take a firmer pressure in my hand for a second to ask for softening, but by and large, the horse should be held by the seat. You will also find that you will work less in your leg if you have hands that have forward intent. Again.... the goal is NOT the make the mouth of the horse light - it's to make the shoulders light.

In terms of roundness - so you can have a horse that is yielding to the bit, but are doing so with a flat topline - dropped in the base of the neck/chest. That is what he's doing - you have to get the energy, to ride him up and over the bit - we've all heard the string the bow analogy. More foward will help him change the angle of his neck and be round because he's powering up, not because he's just yielded to the bit. The more energy ties to the above.

Moral of the story - FIGHT FOR YOUR SHOULDERS! It will be huge for you.

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Re: Goals and progress... August and September!

Postby kande50 » Tue Aug 16, 2016 3:49 pm

Brydie wrote: I think I'm too easy on him.


Usually it's just the opposite and we're being too hard on them, which causes them to brace. So we try harder because they're not doing what we want them to do, and it just snowballs until we're pushing and pulling mightily while they're becoming more and more shut down.

The solution is to find an instructor who will make soft, light aids a priority, because if we want soft and light then we need to be soft and light.

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Re: Goals and progress... August and September!

Postby khall » Tue Aug 16, 2016 7:59 pm

I have been reading all of the updates and it looks like most everyone is feeling pretty good with their horses and progress. It is still hot as hades here, which is hard to get motivated to do much. I am at least working in hand, doing some light riding (though my big guy Rip decided to spring a shoe end of last week and we had to wait for farrier yesterday to get him reset) I even rode my mare bareback just for kicks the other day. She was not amused:)

In hand with all 3 (now needing to add in a 4th) is going well, very happy with them all. Heading to FL Friday to ride with new instructor who rode with Bettina Drummond see how we gel. Rip is not everyone's cup of tea, but she is used to stallions so hopefully she has a sense of humor!

dresseur I do have a couple of questions about your work, first I do love your boy, he seems like a very nice horse that is fun to work with. I guess I am puzzled though with some of the work you do with him, just being a 3 yr old. CC and trot-halt transitions (or skipping a gait) are collecting exercises and IMHO a 3 yr old is not ready for collection no matter how talented they are. Horses need the foundational work of the basics WTC in a longer frame to build up their muscles, tendons, bones and ligaments to withstand the work that is asked of them as they are developed. I am curious as to the reason you are asking this work of your guy. I do agree with you on your focus on position, our riding is key to all of the work we do with our horses. Flame suit on!

Byrdie, I can see some issues with your guy in his tests, but nothing major! Nicely regular with just a few bobbles here and there. I would not worry too much with him just getting back into work. Take your time and remember details! I do agree 100% with flight about the work she is promoting (same type of work that I have been doing for last 10 yrs). One thing I would add in though with you bringing your guy back, move between the lateral work and work with extended neck (or long and low, stretched) to help with his redevelopment. He will get there!

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Re: Goals and progress... August and September!

Postby demi » Tue Aug 16, 2016 8:41 pm

Brydie wrote:... I WILL GET HIM HOT OFF MY LEG IF IT'S THE LAST THING I DO (starting tomorrow after his couple of days off). Light leg, not good enough response WHACK! Come back, repeat until he responds how I would like. I think I'm too easy on him. I used to create energy but "let it escape" out the front. My instrcutor always says don't let it out in front!


There was a good article by Erik Herbermann in the March 2013 USDF Connection magazine. It was titled "The Art of 'Tuning'". I tried to get the link for you but kept getting "domain not found" or something like that. If you're interested maybe I could figure out how to scan it to you or maybe someone else could figure out how to send you the link.

Anyway, he points out some interesting things which are well worth thinking about.
Last edited by demi on Tue Aug 16, 2016 9:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Goals and progress... August and September!

Postby demi » Tue Aug 16, 2016 8:47 pm

I wanted to make sure people know I am quoting so I put the quoted part in a different color. Unfortunately the color I picked doesn't stand out too well. I tried to change it but couldn't...

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Re: Goals and progress... August and September!

Postby Josette » Tue Aug 16, 2016 9:05 pm


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Re: Goals and progress... August and September!

Postby Brydie » Tue Aug 16, 2016 9:10 pm

Flight - yes basically the only lateral work we've been doing are leg yields. We did a few steps of haunches in on a circle at walk in our lesson 3 weeks ago but haven't revisited. We also do some shoulder fore. (But haven't done much at all since bringing him back). The trouble is I have no idea what I should be doing or how much. Don't want to overdo it.

Dresseur - thanks for your help. I can't remember if I felt like I was pulling back or not, I don't want to!!! I want to ride with my hands forward, moments in training where I have felt like I've been able to have been the best feeling. I'm very much on my own except for my fortnightly lessons with my instructor so don't really have anyone to do the exercise with.

Tonight we're doing trot/canter sets. Goal is to have him hotter off the leg and get a really good forward canter. Hands forward, shoulders back and down, longer but round frame. (I think he finds canter harder - or just tiring as it can be difficult to get him forward in it! And he's at least 7/8 TB...)

Demi - thanks for that. I have read Jane Savoie's article of getting them hotter to the aids. I start out with it but never follow through because I think I get too concerned with him being "round". And I know forward is the key to that sigh. I need to keep this in my mind and not forget about it.

I am now sitting on the train with my shoulders back and down occasionally pushing my hands forward with my tablet - probably looking a little strange!
Last edited by Brydie on Tue Aug 16, 2016 9:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Goals and progress... August and September!

Postby Dresseur » Tue Aug 16, 2016 9:16 pm

Khall sure, I'll answer that, I was actually talking to Chisamba about this earlier.

For the counter canter, I'm mostly doing shallow loops, and not really in a collected state. We have a HUGE ring, so when I say that I'm doing a full single loop - it's huge - I'm not asking any more of him in those than in the regular canter. So, in other works, I'm not asking him to do that in a collected state. And, I'm not drilling and drilling. He does that one, maybe two rides a week - and I only ride him 3 days a week in the ring - we go hacking after nearly every ride, the rest is hacking. He gets a ton of turn out. The rides are short - 15 minutes, maybe 20 at the most.

For trot/halts - again, not drilling. He does maybe 2 every other ride - one in each direction, and it's more for the discipline of it. I'm not pushing him past what he can carry- and they are not being slammed down. He's still very much doing them with a few walk steps. I think that I've mentioned multiple times that I have to be careful not to ask him for more than what he can carry. By and large, most of our transitions are not skipping gaits and I'm a long ways out from touching on canter/walks etc.

He was started through longing first, for several months... plenty of time built in to for building muscles that would eventually carry a rider, and the trail rides continue to build him up. This is not a horse that I just got on with zero muscular prep work.

I also select pics carefully for the best moments and for glimpses of what's to come. So, I can see that it would appear that I'm riding him constantly, asking for very difficult things and drilling for 45 mins at a time, but that's definitely not the case. That being said, I'm aiming for GP with him, so yes, we are working with a goal in mind. He's lucky (or unlucky enough) to have me as an owner, and I have definite goals. But he's happy, cheeky, and very, very willing so I do take it very seriously that I can't push him past what he's ready for.

edited to add:
This may help clarify my outlook. We can all agree that collection is a continuum, right? A weight lifter doesn't start lifting 250lbs and a gymnast doesn't start with "the Biles". They start small, in tiny steps, that builds over time. Collection isn't an event - I would never come out and say, "you know what, we're ready, today we're going to work on collection". Every day I'm building to eventual collection. I'm testing responses, and over time, that will build the strength for the pinnacle of collection. So, in other words, I can be "working on collection" without being collected. But do I expect that he can start cantering a diagonal line, go straight on center line for a bit, and then fade back to the wall? Yes. Do I expect him to do that in a collected state? No. But will it lay the foundation for eventually asking him to do it in a more collected state? Yes. The same with the trot halts. Do I expect that he can start coming to a halt after a step or two of walk? Yes. Do I expect the number of steps to shorten over time? Yes. But I don't wait to ask for trot/halts until the day that I decide, "now is time, and from here on out I will be slamming you down into a halt from the trot. Zero walk steps acceptable." I'm starting to very gradually build on the continuum.
Last edited by Dresseur on Tue Aug 16, 2016 10:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Goals and progress... August and September!

Postby demi » Tue Aug 16, 2016 9:36 pm

Josette wrote:Demi - is this the same article?


http://www.arrowequestrian.co.uk/erikarticle4.php


Yes Josette! Thanks.

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Re: Goals and progress... August and September!

Postby demi » Tue Aug 16, 2016 9:52 pm

demi wrote:
Josette wrote:Demi - is this the same article?


http://www.arrowequestrian.co.uk/erikarticle4.php


Yes Josette! Thanks.


Oh no! I just noticed the article from the Arrow Eq site is copyright protected. I think I best delete my post to Brydie.

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Re: Goals and progress... August and September!

Postby Flight » Wed Aug 17, 2016 12:29 am

Brydie, I used to worry that I was overdoing lateral work but you actually don't because the horse limits you. What I mean is, when you start, the horse finds it difficult, so unless you start laying into it and forcing it to do the movements, it just offers what it can do.
So, you start shoulder fore on a longside or 20m circle and initially the horse will be stiff or pull on you, or fall in/out, but eventually (actually, quite quickly) they do it softly and then you can increase the angle, or the amount of time you do it for. Start with half a circle, see what you get, then go from there.
It is hard to know without someone teaching you this stuff, I agree. But be brave and experiment with it. I love Anja Beran's vids, because it was an eye opener to how they train their young horses.

Dresseur - i like your descriptions on position, shoulders/core etc. I found this when my young horse starts trotting, he always has to blow his nose, cough and he used to pull me forward. Now I am better aligned, I can stay sitting up much more easily.

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Re: Goals and progress... August and September!

Postby Brydie » Wed Aug 17, 2016 3:27 am

Thanks Flight :D

After sitting on the train with shoulders back/down and now in a chair at work, flattening my back and engaging my core I believe my "bad" shoulders are me being lazy and not engaging my core while riding. In the correct position I can really feel it in my core, then as soon as I round my shoulders, no more core. So this is something I'll be working both on and off the horse!

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Re: Goals and progress... August and September!

Postby StraightForward » Wed Aug 17, 2016 3:44 am

Brydie, I think I've posted this before, but I like to do this exercise starting at about 6:10 in this video (warning, profanity): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8ghzmmF_FA

Actually, the whole video has good points on posture. I think there needs to be more talk about posterior chain, not just core. The more I've become aware, the more I've felt the need to focus on my hips and glutes to achieve the dynamic stability needed for the dressage seat.
Keep calm and canter on.

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Re: Goals and progress... August and September!

Postby Brydie » Wed Aug 17, 2016 9:35 am

Thanks for that SF.

Just had an amazing ride :D. After about 3 halt/walk transitions gettinf the response I wanted and a nice marching walk warm up giving him a slight tap with the whip when he slowed down. I had a horse that was actually quite hot off the leg at times. There was a part I found quit funny when we went to turn and I put my leg on a bit much and he shot forward and whoops I got left a little behind the movement. We did trot/canter sets, canter has never been great but we had a nice forward canter, and when I sat up, brought my shoulders back, had my hands forward with barely a contact he'd come round and not his head in the air canter he usually has! You may have quite possibly transformed my riding Dresseur and Flight <3. Although I feel quite stiff and awkward trying to get the right position (so most of the ride was just a light forward seat) I hope I will loosen up a bit with time :)

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Re: Goals and progress... August and September!

Postby Dresseur » Wed Aug 17, 2016 1:59 pm

Brydie, so happy that you are feeling improvements! Keep it up!

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Re: Goals and progress... August and September!

Postby Flight » Thu Aug 18, 2016 12:49 am

Great work Brydie! It's soooo much easier to ride when they are in front of your leg, you can then just sit there and work on yourself more.

My guys are going good, the big horse is becoming more balanced, we can lengthen and come back more easily now in trot, and just be generally more steadier, still a bit of an effort in canter. I think it could be just because he's such a big horse? If we make some mistakes, he can still get a bit frazzled, so I just give him a walk break to reset and he relaxes again. He's a funny sweet horse.
The little black horse, he's staying sound and the break has been good for him. Just seems to be happy to stay forward and active. Looking forward to his summer coat, he is looking like a shaggy pony right now.

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Re: Goals and progress... August and September!

Postby demi » Thu Aug 18, 2016 12:11 pm

Brydie wrote:... You may have quite possibly transformed my riding Dresseur and Flight...



I'm happy you're having a breakthrough, Brydie! This is a good bulletin board for improving riding skills! Flight made a comment about how I was blocking Emma and while it was obvious after I thought about it, I was not able to see it myself until she pointed it out.

There are so many good points brought out in these training discussions. And it's more than just reading good comments because so many of us post vids and pics and we can actually see improvements being made. Pretty cool!

I need to work on my shoulders, too, And not just when I'm on a horse. I was blaming poor posture on my age :roll: but that's no excuse...not yet anyway.

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Re: Goals and progress... August and September!

Postby Ryeissa » Thu Aug 18, 2016 6:15 pm

So I am trucking away. you guys have been very prolific lately, and I have had my own small rewards.
Sort of thinking about that collection in extension and extension in collection idea.

I'm at the point where I can release energy into a longer stride vs kicking to get it, so that is fun. I sort of always have it avail and now I can more smoothly get a nice gear change. my horse has some arab in him so he is prone to rushing a bit. this has been the biggest challenge.

now it's "how do I collect with out tension?" It's coming, slowly.

It's funny how I had to do more collection to get that lengthening and now I have the opposite problem.

Other concepts- TOH: marrying the idea of 4 beat march with still "pause and turn"- sometimes I don't get respect of the seat so the pause gets more accentuated, and then we get TOO stalled out so the MARCH 4 beat gait gets priority. Both are important, rhythm is more classically the priority here but with a horse that is learning "stop now" does have a place!

I have some videos if you guys want, I don't post publically

And I can ride in my jump saddle successfully! Ha! a week ago I couldn't say that. I am gearing up for hunters.

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Re: Goals and progress... August and September!

Postby Ponichiwa » Thu Aug 18, 2016 7:29 pm

In Kiwi-is-definitely-healed news, I got run away with on a field ride. Started as a brisk trot through the bushhogged paths in the hayfield, ended up in a sprint when my sister (who also has some ponies) opted to gear up into the canter. Ponies, man. Ponies.

We're slooooowly reintroducing ring work because man, you can lose a lot of fitness in 8 weeks. Before the injury/crosscountry move, we were schooling 4th and feeling pretty good about showing 3rd. Now I'm lucky if we can get 3 non-eventful trot/canter transitions in between (long) walk breaks.

When the rain quits, though, we're going to really get things moving again.

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Re: Goals and progress... August and September!

Postby Kyra's Mom » Thu Aug 18, 2016 9:40 pm

Well, I thought I was pretty much relegated to the bleachers on this thread but occasionally have a good day butt wise (my tailbone spur isn't too obnoxious). Today was one of those days when I could sit in the saddle. However, now I understand why my horse seemed a little tired after my ride...she had been worked three time in about 16 hours :roll: . Poor princess. I went out last night but it was too freaking hot for my blood and I ended up putting some ground poles out and we did lunge work on poles (walk and trot) about 20 minutes. Nika (Striaghtforward) went out and rode her early this morning. Nika is getting her riding muscles back to start Pickle so she has been riding Kyra a couple times a week. Then I cruised in about 10:30 and I didn't see one saddle mark on her, so I rode her again :!: She worked marvelously.

We have a new boarder that moved in and she is an eventer. She had some simple grids made with ground poles and a couple jumps. Fun...especially when they are all already set up :D . It was a good day where I was able to warm up in trot and canter and not just putter around at walk. I even had point and shoot mediums (no wind up needed). I then worked Kyra over the canter poles and she was very adjustable and didn't take the exercise as an excuse for speed work. We even jumped the crossbar at the whopping height of 1 foot. She about jumped me (I am NO jump rider) out of the tack the first time, clearing it by plenty. I was pleased she did not get excited or tense. We did it a couple 'jumps' each way and called it a day. I think she enjoyed having something else to do. To cool off, we then headed over to the track and the apple tree that is loaded and got her a treat.

I am so happy how much she has improved in her connection and self carriage. So despite hit and miss riding Nika and I seem to be doing some quality work :mrgreen: .

Happy riding all.
Susan
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Re: Goals and progress... August and September!

Postby khall » Thu Aug 18, 2016 9:55 pm

dreseur, ok yes the trot, halt thru the walk, is an exercise that I would work with a 3 yr old (if I had started them at that age after I determined they were ready to be started, because we all know some 3 yr olds are just not ready to go under saddle!) but trot, halt thru the walk is very different than trot-halt transitions and I do think our language needs to be precise here. No I do not agree that ANY CC however slight is appropriate for a 3 yr old. You say you are not "collecting" him for these movements, but IMO the CC is a collecting movement in and of itself. Why we do these movements when it is appropriate to build the strength of our horses as we develop them for higher level work. So we will have to agree to disagree on this particular instance.

My thoughts on young horses might help you understand where I am coming from. I, too, think about their long term development, starting with appropriate work in hand and under saddle for the age of the horse. I am in the camp of a 3 yr old should be ridden very lightly, roughly 3 days a week, if in the arena using mostly long straight lines with gentle bending lines so they develop in a natural frame with little actual "dressage work" in there. Trail riding is also ideal for them to go out and about on uneven footing and see the world. I then like to turn them out over the winter, letting them grow up a bit bringing them back out the spring of their 4 yr old year. Again, pretty light "work" no more than 4 days a week ideally, very little true "dressage" work US, in hand work with appropriate movements for them. Winter turn the 4 yr old back out to grow and soak it up and as a 5 yr old with 2 half yrs under their belt they sometimes are ready to move on in their development. Again it depends on the horse, some are very balanced and ready for more lateral work (like Bliss was) some are still big babies (like my gelding was) who need more time working on the early development learning, starting true lateral work but not expecting much yet. My gelding grew 1 1/2 inches his 6 yr old year. Their spines are not mature until 6-7, so I am more of the not push them, but to develop them slowly over time if needed. Now some horses are easier and ready earlier for true collection, some are not.

dressier wrote: ""now is time, and from here on out I will be slamming you down into a halt from the trot. Zero walk steps acceptable." This statement really bothers me, never would I slam a horse into a transition. I want my horses as light as possible and I want to ride as light as possible so I train them to respond to the lightest aid. I have found in my work over the years that even the biggest, laziest horse can learn to respond to light aids if developed properly. In fact, they respond by offering more when I ask less. That has been my biggest ah ha moment in riding with Mark and riding my big beast of a gelding.

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Re: Goals and progress... August and September!

Postby Chisamba » Thu Aug 18, 2016 10:45 pm

I started Deneb at three, mistake. I turned her out for nine months. I started her again after she turned four. four, some progress but intense anxiety. I turned her out again. Started her again at five and I have a different horse.

I too do not usually back a horse at three. I thought i would with Deneb because i thought she might do better with more structure. I admit I was wrong.

I have done a lot of ponying in tack, hand walking, in hand work and preparatory work with young horses.

I really really agree with flight, who said lateral bending lines before longitudinal flexion works. I consider it traditional, rather than classical which now seems to have a sort of high head hollow back ridden off the curb flavor that i do not find appealing.

Dresseur told me that tbe pictures she shares are the ones where she can see his future potential, she does not always school him intensely. She is light in weight and careful in posture. Gives him trail rides etc.

I admit that i start most horses at four and do not begin any collecting work til five, but I am heavy and like to have the horse muscled before asking them to balance under my weight. I will ask them to balance and strengthen in hand.

Anyway, Deneb went from curling very easy as she has a long slightly upside down neck, to being against the hand. I have been using bending lines and straightening, three loop serpentines, and transitions, trot walk trot again, with one or two walk steps. She has begun to understand a more tactful aid and response. Her canter takt is better.

Kimba has been working so well she earned a week long vacation on pasture. Actually I needed her stall and thought she might appreciate a break. I have often had horses come back very well from short breaks.

Happy riding everyone.

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Re: Goals and progress... August and September!

Postby Flight » Fri Aug 19, 2016 12:19 am

Chisamba wrote:I really really agree with flight, who said lateral bending lines before longitudinal flexion works. I consider it traditional, rather than classical which now seems to have a sort of high head hollow back ridden off the curb flavor that i do not find appealing.


That posture you described was one of the things that stopped me looking at classical approach for ages. Accompanied with people that poo-pooed competition riders.

I started the little black horse too young, in hindsight. I backed him at just before 3yo, and lightly rode him as a 3yo. Looking back at photos of him, he was no where near as developed looking as Dresseur's horse, and I was/am no where near as an accomplished rider.

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Re: Goals and progress... August and September!

Postby Dresseur » Fri Aug 19, 2016 12:37 am

Khall, regarding that quote, I didn't mean to imply that you or I or anyone advocates doing that, I was exaggerating to make my point, sorry if it came across as other. Lightness and self carriage is what I want, and I think that you can look at all of the pics that I've posted and see that no one is pulling on anyone.

Re the trot/halts, I used that language because that's what I'm building up to. But they are still through the walk. I could have been a bit more clear.

Re the cc, we'll have to agree to disagree on that one, and IMO, cc is much more of a straightening tool than collecting tool. The loops are shallow, (the only deviation from this was the trick about coming over and cc doing the long side just so that the wall can help him- and that was done twice before he understood and I fixed my position) and the balance doesn't discernibly change, nor am I asking for multiple attempts every ride, or asking for attempts every ride- and again, he is ridden very lightly, and was physically prepared for riding before he was ever backed. He is a mature 3 y/o and incredibly balanced. My program is short and to the point, and he comes to work days eager and cheeky. It'll take as long as it needs to take and I approach training as a fluid, adaptable thing. But, IMO EVERYTHING I do is towards collection- that is the end goal, and everything that I do with him mentally and physically builds the bridge.

But again, his arena rides are short, only a few days a week, primarily straight lines and shallow bending curves (of which some is done in the canter- therefore cc), and very large circles- anything else is hacking. And that does follow the program that you've outlined as being comfortable with. In the winter, he'll chill ;)

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Re: Goals and progress... August and September!

Postby StraightForward » Fri Aug 19, 2016 2:30 am

Kyra's Mom wrote:Well, I thought I was pretty much relegated to the bleachers on this thread but occasionally have a good day butt wise (my tailbone spur isn't too obnoxious). Today was one of those days when I could sit in the saddle. However, now I understand why my horse seemed a little tired after my ride...she had been worked three time in about 16 hours :roll: . Poor princess. I went out last night but it was too freaking hot for my blood and I ended up putting some ground poles out and we did lunge work on poles (walk and trot) about 20 minutes. Nika (Striaghtforward) went out and rode her early this morning. Nika is getting her riding muscles back to start Pickle so she has been riding Kyra a couple times a week. Then I cruised in about 10:30 and I didn't see one saddle mark on her, so I rode her again :!: She worked marvelously.

Susan


Well, she definitely worked off that extra half flake of hay then, didn't she? :lol:

I thought we did a fair bit of work, but nope, she didn't sweat a bit.
Keep calm and canter on.

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Re: Goals and progress... August and September!

Postby Moutaineer » Fri Aug 19, 2016 4:42 am

I think it's just great that you two Idahodians are working together in a mutually beneficial relationship!

I am such a happy camper at the moment. Total, complete and utter lightbulb seems to have gone on for us this last week or so. I finally got serious about the "you are not just running through my aids at the canter when you feel so inclined" issue, and I will admit that it wasn't pretty a few times, but he's got religion and has started to give me some real and effortless collection. I couldn't be more pleased--apart form loving what he is doing, I am loving not being an exhausted puddle when I finish a ride.

(Wish me luck that his reformed behavior lasts through the weekend... we are off to our GMO annual show. Lilo Fore and Joan Darnell judging, both of whom are a little daunting to ride for...)

Ponichiwa... where the heck have you moved to? The Equator?

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Re: Goals and progress... August and September!

Postby Kyra's Mom » Fri Aug 19, 2016 6:50 am

Yes, it is nice to have someone to take up the reins when I can't do much. I am really struggling with whether to try and re-home her or not. Not a right this minute decision but that time may come soon. I have a couple more weeks until my ganglion impar injection to see if I can get some relief from that. In the meantime, it has been very nice to have Nika ride her when she can. She is doing a very nice job and it is pretty seamless when I get back on and pick up the reins. I also ordered another Roma foam pad to try on my saddle and get a little more space between my butt and the saddle. I have looked high and low and for the life of me, I cannot find the pad that I used on my old saddle. The Thinline helps but being thin is a problem. I really need to have no contact with the back part of the saddle/cantle. By damn, something needs to work :!:

Sounds like you are on the right track Mountaineer. Good luck on your show.

Susan
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