The first rollkur thread of the new DDBB!

[HafDressage]

It had to be done! ...But don't worry, it's sort of a tangential rollkur thread.

Recently the western pleasure world has seen an uproar on facebook because of some show footage and the following warmup footage:
http://thehorseaholic.com/how-western-pleasure-horses-are-warmed-up-and-why-people-are-sickened/#

Now, I don't know about you guys, but I would say that I think this western way is crueler than the rollkur we see in dressage because at least dressage horses are allowed to move forward (or at least more forward than this) even though their heads are more restricted. I think another major difference seems to be that dressage horses should be returned to a more classical posture for the show ring (which of course, ideally would reflect classical training all the time), whereas these western horses are being rewarded for these broken gaits in the show ring.

Now, I'm not sure I have a true point to this thread, but wanted to stir up some discussion because I find the video truly fascinating and I think it has an interesting parallel to our own rollkur debates. What are your thoughts on this?

[Flight]

I don't think it 'looks' crueler than dressage rollkur. While it does look very odd to me, it looks like minimal effort (correct me if I'm wrong, anyone with western pleasure experience) there's hardly to no pressure on the reins. The necks look more relaxed to me, rather than bulging muscles and chins forced into undernecks or chests. That 'canter' thing looks pretty cruisy. Not asking a huge effort to get hind legs stepping through by kicking into a very restricted hand, like rollkur... that's just my impressions. I'm happy to be corrected, and I'm open for discussion too.
It's a shame that it's taking things to extreme and away from the more natural beauty of horses, in a lot of sports we do.

[Chisamba]

The gait is modified and to my eye unattractive. I know there are behind the scene abuse that goes on, but sadly this is true of most Equine sports.

That said it is not any more challenging or abusive to the horse than any other discipline at the top levels. Eventing, racing, dressage, endurance all have challenges to the horse that are not always natural or healthy.

I do not like the pile on crucial that is following these videos around because it is just providing ammunition to groups that are against domestic animals, and riding in general, and will eventually be turned on all and every rider.

[myleetlepony]

Show me a horse that naturally moves that way or in rollkur and I'll start changing my thinking. The point of riding horses is to preserve their natural movement, not destroy it. The pressure on the nichal ligament (which is designed to hold the head up, NOT "stretch" down) is horrible. Hold your head down and forward all day and let me know how your nuchal feels. Secondly, there is absolutely no engagement of the hind end, they are levering with their front legs and hopping with the back. It's no wonder so many of them end up with navicular!

Last I'd heard, there was a directive in WP judging to judge in favor of a more natural neck/head carriage, but clearly that is not the case.

[Bats79]

I think that style of "western riding" looks as harsh on horses hindlegs and ligaments as rollkur in on horses necks. Neither allow the horse to move in a manner even approaching normal and both place unfair strain on the horse.

[Flight]

as to the OP?
yer spelled "rolkur" wrong and, imho ANYONE who treats a horse/animal like in the above video DESERVES to be piled on.
might teach 'em about compassion and empathy.

I googled how to spell rollkur and I could only find it spelled rollkur!

[ProudHorse]

Posture is everything, it cannot be said enough because somehow it falls on deaf ears again and again. Posture dictates the soundness and quality of the movement. Rollkur, LDR, this kind of awful shuffle? Not health postures. The only difference is what gets damaged and where the horse hurts.

[Chisamba]

The posture is not that different than their natural unposed stance. Low head long neck.

I think you are naieve of you think animal extremists are not watching social media for ammunition.

[galopp]

Over tempo, under tempo, lateral and longitudinal flexion being used for 'submission'. Western horses posing and low, other uses are to prevent overt resistances and go over tempo (with steady torque on the curb). Two sides of the same coin, gaits still show the effects of the (rider's) actions.

[StraightForward]

I think that style of "western riding" looks as harsh on horses hindlegs and ligaments as rollkur in on horses necks. Neither allow the horse to move in a manner even approaching normal and both place unfair strain on the horse.

Agreed.

I used to ride western pleasure before I knew better. Ideally a WP horse would be moving more fluidly, stepping up under and carrying it's front end. However, the horses can't develop the proper strength to do this because they're broke for 2 yo futurities and this type of ridiculous movement is engrained before they're anywhere near mature. This debate was raging 20 years ago and it's depressing that nothing has changed. When I briefly showed at AQHA circuit, the rules were supposedly changed so that any horse that wwent with it's ear tips below wither height for more than like 3 strides was supposed to be eliminated, but yet judges continued to pin these horses and nothing was ever enforced.

[kande50]

Over tempo, under tempo, lateral and longitudinal flexion being used for 'submission'. Western horses posing and low, other uses are to prevent overt resistances and go over tempo (with steady torque on the curb). Two sides of the same coin, gaits still show the effects of the (rider's) actions.

If (big IF) the horses were started at the same ages and trained kindly, I think the Western Pleasure horses would end up with less damage than the rollkured ones, and possibly less even than competitive dressage horses, just because the WP ones are moving so slowly.

[Ponichiwa]

Over tempo, under tempo, lateral and longitudinal flexion being used for 'submission'. Western horses posing and low, other uses are to prevent overt resistances and go over tempo (with steady torque on the curb). Two sides of the same coin, gaits still show the effects of the (rider's) actions.

If (big IF) the horses were started at the same ages and trained kindly, I think the Western Pleasure horses would end up with less damage than the rollkured ones, and possibly less even than competitive dressage horses, just because the WP ones are moving so slowly.

I'm not so sure. Limiting the range of motion for a joint introduces stiffness. Just ask my hips when I'm sitting at my desk job.

[HafDressage]

as to the OP?
yer spelled "rolkur" wrong and, imho ANYONE who treats a horse/animal like in the above video DESERVES to be piled on.
might teach 'em about compassion and empathy.

6c - You are spicy today. Rollkur is spelled correctly. I may live in the south, but I knere me spellins.


I will be curious if this social media uproar sparks any changes in the western pleasure world. I think that the social media uproar that has gone along with rollkur has really helped to change things. Now I know some will argue that nothing has changed, but in reality, the rules have gotten stricter and enforcement of those rules has become more regular. Also, there is so much more awareness that rollkur is not a kind practice, so I think in general those who are trying to be good horse people are avoiding the practice.

[Abby Kogler]

There is no humane way to train horses to move in this perverted fashion. They are hobbled front to back, draw reined to death, constantly hit in the mouth every stride. Just hang out in a WP training barn for a while. It will turn your stomach. Its way worse than rollkur IMO in that it starts when they are barely 2, and it goes on all day long. They are left in the stalls that way. They never get a break. Its as cruel as the Big Lick in my mind. Additionally, the entire WP industry is based on this way of going and way of training. They see absolutely nothing wrong with it. At least the dressage world knows there is a problem and is fighting to change things. Rollkur is discredited and is on the way out. WP? These assholes love it.

I hate the AQHA. Clive Wells? One year suspension. Shirley Roth? Look up the abuses those two are convicted of, and then tell me that AQHA gives a crap.

Chisamba, I think that the PETA people are EXACTLY why we in the industries need to speak up and fight for the horses. If we don't, speciesists *will* try to make it illegal to ride, own, and show our animals. We *are* the ones who need to shut down the abuses in our equestrian industries, or the animal rights groups will do it for us.

[khall]

Go to an Arab show they are doing this with Arabians now. I could not believe my eyes when I saw them with the broken gaits and barely moving. I used to love a good WP Arabian, they were so elegant and actually MOVED, now they look like the QHs and it is winning.

[Hot4Spots]

Those who value a true western horse are, fortunately, turning to the Ranch Horse competitions (reining, trail, roping, cutting). WP - what a laugh. Really, think they'd cover much ground inspecting fences or driving/chasing cattle - or even getting from Point A to Point B in those gaits? I guess they wouldn't step in any holes, but I doubt they'd find uneven ground comfortable!! I saw an "America's Horse" episode where some gal had won a big "Western Riding" competition, and yes, the horse did flying changes around pylons on a serpentine....and while they interviewed her, it stood with it's head low, dull eyed. When she hugged it, it didn't even react - in enjoyment or discomfort. Sad.

Many years ago, after I'd retired my hold horse (2 horses back) from eventing - he was 19 - I took him to a breed show, and at age 19 he was circuit champion jumper, and the only horse that beat him in hunters was another eventer. But in HUS, the wouldn't even look at him - a horse that had won in HUS at B rated open shows! That was the end of "breed" showing for me - not that I'd ever done it much, but I supported my local breed club so I showed up at a few shows, doing the over fences classes.

[ProudHorse]

The posture is not that different than their natural unposed stance. Low head long neck.

This is posture in movement and no horse shuffles like a geriatric patient with crippling arthritis naturally so no, its not natural. They make me sea sick.

[Chisamba]

When i was in Florida a gentleman at the barn won the lottery and decided to buy a pleasure bred quarter horse, he purchased it as a yearling and asked me to start it under saddle as a four year old. it had never been hobbled, yanked bumped or abused in its life. i started it as i start most young horses, first ponying on trails and then gradually introducing shallow curves and loops. it moved naturally very slowly, with no suspension in any gait, and with its natural head carriage being below the withers, it moved like that at liberty in pasture, and as strange as it may seem that was its comfortable posture.

yes, the WP at congress is the extreme, but it is not as far from how these horses are bred to move as it might seen to those of use used to horses bred for other purposes. yes, there are those who are very abusive and work in the horse industry, sadly this is true of all of the horse sports. it is not attractive, and when abusive measures are employed to introduce it, they should be sanctioned, but i believe the same of jumper trainers, dressage trainers and well, any riding.

lets talk about a paso fino. this is a horse bred to have a specific gait. the gait looks wierd to us, but the foals do it in pasture. the suspension phase of gait is bred right out of this line of quarter horses. the gait they are showing in the ring is not as far from what their natural gait is, as we would think, based on what we look for and choose in our horses.

it is not, imho, as bad as the saddlebred and dutch harness trainers who put chains on the foals before they are even weaned, but people send those pictures around praising the gaits. there was that video of the poor ASB weaning running around in chains and every comment was praising it.

that is all the point i was making, that and my usual caution about joining in pile on attacks on social media

[kande50]

There is no humane way to train horses to move in this perverted fashion. They are hobbled front to back, draw reined to death, constantly hit in the mouth every stride. Just hang out in a WP training barn for a while. It will turn your stomach. Its way worse than rollkur IMO in that it starts when they are barely 2, and it goes on all day long. They are left in the stalls that way. They never get a break. Its as cruel as the Big Lick in my mind. Additionally, the entire WP industry is based on this way of going and way of training.

I just saw a post from Lynn Palm (correction: I thought it was from Lynn Palm, but it may have been from Carol Harris?) on facebook in which she discussed the problem and asked her followers to hang in there, because she and others were trying to contact the AQHA to discuss the outcry and see what they were going to do about it. So yes, those still doing it see nothing wrong with it (or not enough to stop doing it), but there's a whole world out there who don't do it, wouldn't do it, and want to see it stopped.

I too, question whether or not it's as abusive as the chicken little's of the internet want to believe it is?

[Abby Kogler]

Kande, yes, it is as abusive as we think it is. Are you familiar with Clive Wells and Shirley Roth? ICONS of WP. Years of winning and championships. The top of the sport. Read what they were charged with. Do you have any AQHA/APHA barns in your area? I don't remember any up there but maybe down in the valley or closer to Boston. You should just watch them for half an hour. Its gross. Its cruel all right. And though it will always be denied, some BNTs in tht world *do* bleed them. They *do* tie their heads up for 24 hours before the classes so the horses will put their heads down from sheer exhaustion. They *do* withhold water. I have seen it for years and years and it is still happening. My friends who went the AQHA route when I went the AHSA/USEF/HJ/USDF have all dropped out by now and are doing western dressage or trail challenge stuff. The AQHA is all about breeding, and numbers, and money. Its an incestuous bunch of cronies. None of which would bother me so much if it weren't for the way they train. sure, there is probably a breeding component, but that posture and gait is man made, and it is accomplished in terrible, physical and soul eating ways. Come visit. Ill take you to the barns and you can see for yourself what those horses go through. Only Big Lick is as bad.

In dressage the goal is to enhance natural movement. The *goal* is beautiful movement. I personally cant stand the saddlebreds on crack look of some of the international dressage competitors. But MOVEMENT is the goal, the movement that horses do do naturally. In jumpers, *jumping* is the goal. Yes, people do short term abusive behaviours, like poling, or overbitting. But the goal is to JUMP. The horses are allowed to gallop, to go forward. in between the classes most are hacked in snaffles on a loose rein...they have to be able to *jump*.

But in WP, the *goal* is this ridiculous aborted movement. It is *not* a natural thing that is being *enhanced*. It is a perversion of gaits in and of itself. NO HORSE NATURALLY MOVES LIKE THESE HORSES. It is a false, unnatural way of going and it cannot be produced in a humane way. Period. I hope Lynn Palm can do something about it. I know most higher ups in the AQHA don't give a crap and think the world should mind its own business. So do the TWH people. So do the illegal horse slaughterhouse people. I don't think we should mind our own business when it comes to this kind of shit. I really don't.

[kande50]

Its an incestuous bunch of cronies. None of which would bother me so much if it weren't for the way they train. sure, there is probably a breeding component, but that posture and gait is man made, and it is accomplished in terrible, physical and soul eating ways. Come visit. Ill take you to the barns and you can see for yourself what those horses go through. Only Big Lick is as bad.

I was aware of the head tying and yanking around and tail injecting, but didn't know if they were still doing that, or if that was only the sick bastards who knew no other way? We have sick bastards in dressage too, but that doesn't mean that every dressage horse is trained that way. It actually looks like something I could clicker train a horse to do, which means that it could be trained kindly, too.

[khall]

Abby, I think ANY of the breed shows are bad/abusive in some cases. ASBs chase them around with fire crackers, fire extinguishers, they will dilate their pupils to scare them (yes this happened, my farrier watched one with dilated eyes run through center ring because he could not see), Arabians are padded everything up these days even WP horses, yet still want them barely moving like the QHs, halter Arabians are whipped (I have seen this personally) to get the horses fired up, scared out of their wits. Paso Finos are supposed to be some of the soundest horses in show arena, yet they will cut them short trim wise to get them to be even quicker. Reining sucks, ever seem them wall a horse? Saw the reining at WEG in 2010 those horses looked like they were waiting for the hammer to fall down on them. When ribbons, money, ego come into play the horse welfare tends to go out the door.

[kande50]

When ribbons, money, ego come into play the horse welfare tends to go out the door.

I think there's always someone involved who is willing to abuse the horses to try to make more money. And of course, one of the big problems is that the breeders are the trainers are the judges, and everyone owes everyone else so there is no objectivity.

[Bats79]

Go to an Arab show they are doing this with Arabians now. I could not believe my eyes when I saw them with the broken gaits and barely moving. I used to love a good WP Arabian, they were so elegant and actually MOVED, now they look like the QHs and it is winning.

I've seen this in videos too. It is almost worse than with the QH because quarterhorses are often naturally more restrained than the arabian even though the training of both is horrid.