Tell me about your "difficult" horse-- or difficult times

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Ponichiwa
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Tell me about your "difficult" horse-- or difficult times

Postby Ponichiwa » Mon Aug 22, 2016 7:38 pm

Kiwi is a "difficult" ride. She has sharp, oversized reactions to outside stimuli, especially if she has had some time off. My job requires long hours and travel; you can see where this is going. She is VERY talented and can be very fun to ride, but there's a lot of defensive riding that goes on to ensure I don't get lawn-darted. It's not a very relaxing ride.

I'm in a frustrating phase where it feels like we've lost a lot of ground due to injury and moving and yadda yadda the list goes on. For the first time in a long time, I'm seriously thinking about quitting the sport. Kiwi's not a sell candidate, but neither of us are having fun.

So, talk me through some tough rides you've had in the past. Do you have success stories? What did you do with your difficult horse? How did you get through mental slumps? And did any of these coincide with difficult non-horse situations (right now, my job is not cooperating in the least)?

Commiserate with me, or kick my butt. Either way, I need a change.

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Re: Tell me about your "difficult" horse-- or difficult times

Postby Dresseur » Mon Aug 22, 2016 7:53 pm

I had one - she was a pistol, and a bit claustrophic. Needed to be in a program, and my work was out of control in terms of hours. Plus, I ride alone 90% of the time, so I felt unsafe. What I did was in hand work and I also ramped up the longing so that I was spending less time in the saddle. I also used double longing and long lining to test her reactions to things. I did not use it as a way to blow off steam, but as a way to shape reactions and give both of us a chance to change without added pressure of a rider. The side reins were instant feedback to her and slowly but surely we made progress. Eventually I sold her and she has done well for her new owner. I would say that if the pairing means that neither of you are having fun, it's time to move on, lease, sell or retire.

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Re: Tell me about your "difficult" horse-- or difficult times

Postby Chisamba » Mon Aug 22, 2016 8:21 pm

Ive had three. My current one is Deneb, who has her own thread. For a while every time I rode her it seemed likely we could be injured. Suddenly after recent progress I am no longer cencerned when I ride her, and I it way more pleasant.

Rose: rode up the GP. Always though once she was well enough trained it would get easier. It didn't.

Cricket: retired. She killed herself in a pasture accident. Flipped, bashed her skull, suffered severe brain hematoma. She had been retired and was simply hanging out when it happened. It was the second time she flipped, the firstbtime she smashed her withers. Im sure there was something not right about her.

So of the three Deneb is my success story.
Last edited by Chisamba on Mon Aug 22, 2016 11:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Tell me about your "difficult" horse-- or difficult times

Postby musical comedy » Mon Aug 22, 2016 10:09 pm

Ponichiwa wrote: Kiwi's not a sell candidate.
Why not?

I've owned 15 horses and ridden a lot more. I've had difficulty with all of them at one point or another and thought about quitting. I either moved the horse on or else managed to work out most of the problems. But significant success? Nah. That's probably because I'm not a very talented rider. You are, so if you feel you are in over your head with this one, maybe she isn't worth the effort.

One thing I've come to believe after all these decades is that we should move a horse on that isn't working out. That's not to say we shouldn't try our best to fix the issues, but after a certain amount of time, it seems fruitless.

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Re: Tell me about your "difficult" horse-- or difficult times

Postby Bats79 » Tue Aug 23, 2016 12:26 am

Can't do "difficult" horses emotionally, financially or physically.

I can sometime school other peoples difficult horses (so long as they aren't actually dangerous) but have to weigh up the value in doing so. And I have had a horse pts because it was too difficult to train and dangerous to others in the paddock

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Re: Tell me about your "difficult" horse-- or difficult times

Postby Flight » Tue Aug 23, 2016 1:09 am

My big young horse was very difficult for me at the start. I bought him as a 3yo and he had barely been handled. I had already started 2 other horses, so I though I'd be ok, and yes, made mistakes with them, but in hindsight those 2 were a lot less reactive and much more forgiving.

All in hindsight, I was not experienced enough for this horse and I missed the signs that he wasn't comfortable with certain things as he would seem 'ok' but then have a major reaction. For example, when I first got him he really uncomfortable with just being touched. I couldn't pat him, he freaked out when he accidently touched his hoof to my boot when I was leading him. Like, pulled back and ran off!
First time I turned the hose on near him (not at him of course) he sh!t his pants and ran off and did crazy circles in my garden!! I remember saddling him up, and he was ok, but I accidently scuffed the gravel with my foot and he nearly had a heart attack.
I started him under saddle, and I had a fall off him, due to his over reaction and then I definitely knew I was in over my head. Even with some self surgery, my knees will never be the same :)

I wanted to sell him, but I knew no one would buy him like this, and he could so easily end up in the wrong hands and end up with something terrible happening to himself or someone else. So, I was doing research on the internet and I found the Warwick Schiller stuff and it took about a year and a clinic with him, and he is awesome now!!
People tell me that he is just a big dopey thing, and is so quiet, but I will always keep in mind what he was like and that he will always be uncertain and reactive with new things.

I'm glad it's turned out the way it has (obviously!) but more that I have gained new skills and better horsemanship understanding because of this horse.

Horse riding/ownership is a personal journey, so it's difficult to tell someone what they should do. But, it is meant to be fun and if you can't work your way through something and feel you are getting something good out of it, then you need to figure something else out.

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Re: Tell me about your "difficult" horse-- or difficult times

Postby demi » Tue Aug 23, 2016 1:12 am

I just wrote a long post and lost it. I'll try again.

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Re: Tell me about your "difficult" horse-- or difficult times

Postby demi » Tue Aug 23, 2016 1:41 am

Ponichiwa, I was thinking about quitting the sport just yesterday. I feel better today, although I'm not sure why! This Texas weather is miserable. I am pretty sure Emma coliced about two weeks ago because of the heat. I wrote a long description in the goals thread about how careful I've been with her because of the heat and yet she still coliced. I read my training notes yesterday from the time i got Em, in November last year, up till now and I lost a lot of riding time due to weather. Lots of high winds last winter, lots and lots of rain, and then suddenly it was Texas summer. No nice fall weather in between. Yeah, it cooled a week ago from the rains. Down to high 80's with oppressive humidity.

Emma needs lots of turn out because she is a high energy horse. I can't turn her out in the heat because even tho we have lots of shade, she grazes in the sun and it is too hot for her. I cant turn her out at night because she is very sensitive to fly and bug bites. I had to have the vet out for that and we decided limited turn out was the lesser of two evils. She has a 24X24 crushed granite paddock off her stall and i have a flyspray system inside so she's not completely stalled. And I turn her out for a couple of hours in the morning with fly boots on. Except for the last week because of the rain and mud. She has a tendency to get thrush.

So, I rode her Saturday for the first time since the colic. At a walk. For 10 minutes. Then, yesterday I rode her again at the walk for 10 minutes and then tried a little trot. She became electric. She threatened to buck seriously. I didnt want a confrontation for many reasons so i got off and longed her. I pulled her in when she tried to buck, but the bucks she got away with I would not have been able to ride. Not even close. I only longed her for a few minutes fearing overheating and colic.

She got 4 hours turnout this morning and although she was a little flightly when i brought her in, she seems much more settled. I will ride her in the morning and see what happens.

SO...I think things seem A LOT worse because of this weather. We are really affected by the weather and some of us just try to ignore it and carry on, but then we don't realize how much it is coloring our emotions and riding is emotional enough already......things will get better.

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Re: Tell me about your "difficult" horse-- or difficult times

Postby exvet » Tue Aug 23, 2016 1:59 am

Well there is difficult and then there is DIFFICULT. I guess for me it not only depends on how I feel about the horse but also whether or not I feel deep down in my gut whether the sport is 'doable'. Not everyone has agreed with me and yes, I've had success; but, I've also made the decision to sell. Stinker is my latest truly difficult one that isn't and won't ever be for sale. I still learn on him and he's not anywhere near as reactive as he once was. We've made it to FEI and the two's are actually coming well now as well as full pirouettes. He tries hard and shows some promise with P&P too; so, I'm happy I kept him through all 5 unintended dismounts that have occurred through our years together, some in full public view at shows. There are still times that he reminds me that I still need and still have velcro on my hiney LOL. At 53, I'm still not afraid to get on and go forth. Still those I've put on the ground in one form or fashion have always been the easy ones for me and that is what I hope to stick with in the years ahead. I'm not sure I'll take on another I haven't bred though in the last month I've been offered 4 very tempting prospects. Stinker will continue to retain his pasture babysitter duties long after I 'retire him' and for now he's still my main ride.

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Re: Tell me about your "difficult" horse-- or difficult times

Postby Kyra's Mom » Tue Aug 23, 2016 4:48 am

My mare was difficult in her earlier years. I agree...NOT FUN. Hers actually came from a physical issue (bit fit and super fleshy mouth conformation). By the time I figured it out, bad habits, negative tension and over-reactiveness were pretty ingrained and it took me well over a year to even find a bit she would work comfortably in.

We had a few good years and successful showing. I was a whisker away from bringing her out at second level when my body went south. I have not been able to get back to that level of fitness. My riding goals have changed radically. Unable to show, why not go back to the beginning? I also started doing some online courses with Karen Rohlf (Dressage Naturally) and have dramatically changed my thought processes about what is important and doable. Riding has become much more "playful". I used to regularly lose my temper with her because I was so tired of the same reactive crap. She is half Andalusian so yeah, she can teleport out from under you in a blink. And birds are the devil incarnate :roll: . I actually have been able to ride through the spooking and startles and laugh at it. Her reactive-ness has greatly decreased. It won't ever be gone but for some time now, I don't dread every ride. I have been able to get her connection more correct and softer (she could be VERY against the hand) and self carriage so much better. I don't have to peddle all the time. She is much more in front of the leg. Chances are, I will never be able to sit the trot sufficiently to return to showing but I finally have an answer to my butt pain...I have a tail (in the form of a spike :!: ) on the end of my tailbone. I am struggling whether to call it an end to riding and re-home her or wait it out a while longer (which could be up to 2 years if surgery is involved). So far, the answer is NO because she is finally at age 14 FUN to ride. I can't be in the saddle more than 20-30 minutes at a time so her training won't advance very far but she doesn't care although her lateral work in the walk is to die for. Maybe I should create my own walk/walk classes :lol:

Maybe like Flight and I have...take a little time and try something different. I do some of Karen' stuff online and it is at your own speed. Something like that might fit with your travel schedule better and make the time you do have productive?

Jingles...it is a hard decision.

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Re: Tell me about your "difficult" horse-- or difficult times

Postby Chisamba » Tue Aug 23, 2016 11:41 am

One thing I have realized and that is one persons " difficult horse" may often be the perfect fit another is looking for.

I had a client bring me a" difficult" horse. The horse was a rearer, who had pushy knock you over ground manners, had to be sedated for everything. This young owner had been taking lessons on , one of my horses and loved her.

I suggested she bring her horse for assessment. Strangely, he was an angel, never displayed any of the behavior she described. I made a trade, her horse for my school pony.

She adores her pony. Her horse has shown his "dark side" perhaps three times. Once when clipping and once when being asked to leave the herd, and every time he was asked to do a leg yield.

He has his own person now who adores him. He is doing shoulder in, simple changes, some collection and mediums.

The difference? First owner had heavy contact and tight legs. Current owner has long reins and is a bit loose in the saddle. Pony mare likes the stronger contact, big gelding did not.

The stand out thing is that both people and horses benefitted hugely from the change. It look a year to happen, because of owner guilt, but once it found its path, it has been very positive.

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Re: Tell me about your "difficult" horse-- or difficult times

Postby Ponichiwa » Tue Aug 23, 2016 11:56 am

She'd be a tough sell because she's cute, pony-sized, and very talented, but also tricky to ride and very spicy. That's a recipe for some kid somewhere getting hurt.

I don't know. I feel like I've lost my mojo this year. We had been schooling really big half-pirouettes and starting on the tempis and now I risk getting dumped on my tush every time I take her on a field ride. It certainly doesn't help that my industry is going through waves and waves of layoffs-- certainly doesn't take any stress out of my life, I can tell you that.

I appreciate all the responses here. I'm thinking through what I do next (even if it's nothing), and you all are helping provide some valuable perspective. Thank you.

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Re: Tell me about your "difficult" horse-- or difficult times

Postby Flight » Tue Aug 23, 2016 12:11 pm

Ponichiwa, the other day I was only just reading the intro to pirouette thread that you started, I didn't make the connection with this thread! Does increasing the amount of difficulty in schooling increase the 'hotness' of some horses? Maybe taking a few steps back for both of you might help? You don't have to throw in the towel just yet, but I know when I had to quit trying to event my horse (he didn't like jumping) it made me feel like crap.

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Re: Tell me about your "difficult" horse-- or difficult times

Postby Ponichiwa » Tue Aug 23, 2016 12:25 pm

She's always been a tough ride, but if she's in regular work (like 6+ days/week) she comes out of the stall/pasture and goes to work without much fuss. If she's had time off, suddenly everything is spooky and the reaction to the leg can be, uh, unpredictable.

And then she hurt herself 8 weeks or so ago and as of the last 2 weeks we're just now getting back into work. Because she's lost quite a bit of fitness, I'm asking for training/1st level stuff. Basically, just enough to keep her thinking about me and not about pronking around like a gazelle on crack. All the progress we'd made-- steadiness in the connection, relaxation in all 3 gaits, regularity of tempo beginning to turn into some cadence-- is now gone.

So, maybe this is a just-be-patient-and-things-will-get-better issue. I do think stepping back in work intensity will be hard to do... I'm doing w/t/c with as long of an outline as she'll let me without ghosting on me, and the work portion of the ride is maximum 20-25 minutes. Then it's some pasture riding on as loose a rein as prudence allows.

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Re: Tell me about your "difficult" horse-- or difficult times

Postby exvet » Tue Aug 23, 2016 1:14 pm

Chisamba does have a point; but, more so, here is what stinker taught me which has been invaluable. The more stressed I get (at work), the more reactive he can be. He knows me right down to my soul. He has been the best barometer to let me know if I should get into the saddle or not. I, after may years of thinking I HAVE TO RIDE has taught me that some evenings it's better to just spend quality time and de-stress off horse back. It has really worked and our progress became exponential. He still can't be ridden by anyone else but it's literally been years since he's tried a very serious launch.....more just ponytude from time to time to let me know he's still a bundle of dynamite; but a kind one lol. So while it's not what you want to hear maybe a few months off for her and you and then go back to the drawing board. I had to do that during my divorce/work upheaval and other than re-conditioning most of the rest came back as if we were never 'off'.

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Re: Tell me about your "difficult" horse-- or difficult times

Postby piedmontfields » Tue Aug 23, 2016 1:46 pm

P., I commiserate with you (from experience with past horses) and echo the impact of life stress on our horsey relationships/goals. You made a big move, are feeling work pressure, and your spicey mare is being more reactive--which is stressful, too! As exvet recounted, I do think the more sensitive, reactive types feel *our* stresses more acutely.

It is especially hard with those horses who thrive in a regular, fairly intense program who have to go more slowly when they come back to condition. I don't know if you are a fan of long-lining or even t touch games or Masterson method work, but these are some different options for "mental work"/relaxation without being overly taxing on the horse , or on you. You could even do your 20-25 minutes of light ring work and then do a hike together in the fields.

I also encourage you to be extra kind to yourself and your goals! You are a very capable, thoughtful trainer who knows that progress is not always linear :-). And, you have already made lots of progress with this mare.

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Re: Tell me about your "difficult" horse-- or difficult times

Postby Tuddy » Tue Aug 23, 2016 2:26 pm

Thanks for this thread - perfect timing for me as I came off Tuddy last week. Nice to see that I am not the only one with a horse that requires a lot more mental work than others.

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Re: Tell me about your "difficult" horse-- or difficult times

Postby musical comedy » Tue Aug 23, 2016 3:02 pm

Ponichiwa wrote:She'd be a tough sell because she's cute, pony-sized, and very talented, but also tricky to ride and very spicy. That's a recipe for some kid somewhere getting hurt.
You're an experienced adult, and you bought her. Exvet is an FEI rider, and she rides ponies. That (forget her name) lady from California rides ponies. Lots of smaller adults love and want ponies, especially german riding ponies.

It's always the same story though with the difficult horses; they are difficult to resell. One great reason for thinking about that when we buy a horse, unless we feel competent we can deal with the stuff or else have a place to retire it.

I predict that in a little time, you will be posting about how you've got things together and are happy with the progress. That's how it goes, or a least has for me. We have a big breakthrough and think the problems are gone, but they often return.

Put me in the same camp as Bats79. I just do not want to deal with anything difficult anymore.

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Re: Tell me about your "difficult" horse-- or difficult times

Postby Josette » Tue Aug 23, 2016 3:34 pm

Oh My - you just described the large pony I had purchased 5 years ago. He had been passed around as too hot/difficult for a kid rider. I was owner #6 when I bought him as an 11 year old. He came with lots of mental training baggage and required an adult experienced rider. (I couldn't resist him because he passed the prepurchase exam with flying colors. 2 others I had vetted failed bad.) IMO he was very talented and pushed too hard in his training and it ruined his confidence. Now he is my pocket pony and I love this little monkey. I'm not a talented rider but I've learned so much in correcting my riding and getting him to enjoy being ridden again. I know Exvet would have made much higher progress if she was his rider/trainer. So we may not go far in our training but I really enjoy riding him now.

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Re: Tell me about your "difficult" horse-- or difficult times

Postby kande50 » Tue Aug 23, 2016 5:27 pm

Ponichiwa wrote:I appreciate all the responses here. I'm thinking through what I do next (even if it's nothing), and you all are helping provide some valuable perspective.


If it was me I'd be thinking about how long I'd been feeling like getting out of the current horse/situation, and whether I'd be likely to regret it in the future.

Most days I get off my horse and feel great, but once in awhile I get off and feel blah. I'd estimate that maybe one in thirty rides is a blah ride (a lot of effort to get started and no real payoff). One in thirty is great odds, so I just brush off the occasional blah ride. If however, every other ride was a blah ride, and I didn't really enjoy having the horse around just to play with, and things had been going this way for months with no end in sight, then at that point I might consider making some serious changes.

OTOH, I've tried to give away an equid or two at times because I wasn't using them and felt like I'd found the perfect victim. Fortunately, no one's ever taken me up on my offer, because with the exception of one useless hard keeper, I've always ended up finding a use for the one I tried to rehome so was happy that I'd kept them.

So I guess if it was me I'd think about whether I was likely to regret rehoming her later, or if I really was done with her.

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Re: Tell me about your "difficult" horse-- or difficult times

Postby Kyra's Mom » Tue Aug 23, 2016 5:37 pm

Work/life stress :evil: . It can be such a block to our riding and it is the horse that pays the price. That is one of the things I learned from Karen's program. It doesn't belong at the barn. For me now, if the stress comes with me, I usually don't get on.

I now really enjoy my horse after my mental reset. I have a lot of family stress(elder care), my health issues and of course work but have been able to leave it at home when I go to the barn. The horse gets 100% of my attention. I just in the last couple of months have figured out how to get her to wait for me...whatever the request..under saddle and on the ground. She has always been inclined to take over a situation and I realized that I rushed through things without ever asking her to wait. Mostly because I had never taken the time myself :idea: .

My passion is still dressage but there is so much more out there (horse) activity wise that can enhance the dressage. You can't get very far without relaxation which was a big thing with my mare. She is much better now. Not grinding on the bit and using her body much better.

It is tough. We are so passionate about dressage but I think sometimes, that passion gets in the way of more basic issues. Horse misbehaves and then we are miserable. Maybe time to step back and peel off a couple layers of the onion?

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Re: Tell me about your "difficult" horse-- or difficult times

Postby khall » Tue Aug 23, 2016 5:49 pm

I've had a couple of very difficult/challenging horses over the years. Ones that I stuck with and rode for a length of time. My OTTB came with a bucking problem. Not only off the track but went through two hard trainers who wrecked him mentally and training wise. It took me two years before we could ride around a big field without issues. Very talented horse once he learned he could relax. We were just beginning to show 3rd, changes were coming well, playing with some passage and just really clicking along with him when his feet fell apart. 8 months of TO and he came back sound but never really came back training wise. It was the learning to stretch and relax that was the big break through with him (and not buck me off!). He could revert back to that tight tense horse quickly though! When he was on he was fabulous to ride, light and powerful. Surprising he was a good trail horse. I ended up rehoming him to a lady who adored him. He did come back to me in his mid 20s, ended up having neck arthritis (he had flipped at some point) that caused him neuro issues, he was PTS at almost 27. I learned with him how when a horse is relaxed and listening how light they can be ridden.

My big gelding now, Rip, has been extremely challenging in a totally different way. He is pushy, can be spooky (MO is to 180 spin) and always busy in his brain trying to see what he can get into. The work that I did with Mark has changed him and changed our relationship. Mark never fights with a horse, but holds his ground and is able to deflect that busy mindedness into positive work. Took me some time to not "go down the rabbit hole" with him, but man has this horse taught me so much! I've learned to set him up, let him figure it out and then release. NEVER to fight or get physical with him because he can out physical me in a heart beat. The in hand work has been invaluable for establishing boundaries, though I hated to work him in hand for those first several years. I did lots off the caveson initially. When he was 5 had to make a commitment to him, either put my big girl panties on and ride him or sell him and be done. I kept him and now at 10, for the last several years I can pretty much say every ride is good. Even with dealing with unexpected behavior like I did this past weekend in FL with the trainer I worked with down there. They had cows across the road from their farm, across the road from the arena. He was pretty wired about them! Yet all 3 lessons ended up positive. Not where we are at home but not with me splatted on the ground either:)

I had to learn to take my emotions out of the equation as much as I could. Not to let him push my buttons, not to get frustrated, but to keep with the program and let him come to it. It has been a journey for both of us. He happens to love people, always has. Just not always liking to respect them. Does not help he is dominant horse in the field either. But I cannot out dominate him, but to direct him into better behavior. I've learned with the big guy that even the biggest and more energy conservationist horses, they can learn to be light and soft to ride.

I've also had two that I rehomed, both to pro riders. They were just not for me, one way too reactive, the other way too combative. She would challenge you over the smallest things.

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Re: Tell me about your "difficult" horse-- or difficult times

Postby piedmontfields » Tue Aug 23, 2016 11:56 pm

BTW, slightly OT on the theme of life stress + training effort:

I am in a ridiculous time at work (feels like tons of work for likely failure...not what us Type As like to be part of). I find that I'm feeling much more inclined to just hack or just take care of Emi. I certainly don't want to do too much arena work and think about our bloody 10 m canter circles being different in each direction or the feeling of right half pass. I"m dealing with too much judgement in other parts of life right now!

I am lucky that my mare is generally sane. That said, last night we headed out to hack--depending on her energy, I decided we would do trails or hills. Well, she was full of it so we did hill aerobics. Nice workout until our last set when we cross the top of the hill and flush a fawn about 10 feet in front of us! Woo! Granted, Emi is like a giant Arabian when presented with the terrifying: She does a big move, then stands and trembles and says "Save me please, dear human!". At which point she is praised for being a good girl. Somehow this does not stress me out the way arena work can! However, if my mare were good at getting me off with these maneuvers, I wouldn't feel the same :lol:

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Re: Tell me about your "difficult" horse-- or difficult times

Postby Chisamba » Wed Aug 24, 2016 2:16 am

Also off topic slightly, but I am the opposite. The more stressful work is, the more relieving and rewarding it is to have the concentration and single minded focus of dressage. Hacking around does not have the same exclusive focus of training. It is the very act of excluding all else and focusing only on the moment that relieves and decompresses me.

I also am opposite in excluding emotion from working horses. I love my horses. I am not huggy kissy lovey, but affection and joy are the major emotions that color my actions with the horse. Yes, learn to control disappointment, and learn to exclude negative emotions, but I think my horses are able to enjoy affection, and laughing is part of my daily riding.

I mean, isn't empathy an emotion. I cannot train without empathy. If i can understand why the horse had acted in a manner, I can more easily act in a way that is effective.

Anyway, difficult horses take more empathy than others. You have to struggle to understand the reason, and then be better able to influence the behavior.
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Re: Tell me about your "difficult" horse-- or difficult times

Postby mari » Wed Aug 24, 2016 4:41 am

Chisamba wrote:Also off topic slightly, but I am the opposite. The more stressful work is, the more relieving and rewarding it is to have the concentration and single minded focus of dressage. Hacking around does not have the same exclusive focus of training. It is the very act of excluding all else and focusing only on the moment that relieves and decompresses me.


This is how I feel about it as well. Riding is such a focused activity for me that there is no space in my head for anything else. I call it my meditation time.
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Re: Tell me about your "difficult" horse-- or difficult times

Postby kande50 » Wed Aug 24, 2016 10:40 am

Chisamba wrote:Anyway, difficult horses take more empathy than others. You have to struggle to understand the reason, and then be better able to influence the behavior.


Agree. Difficult horses are difficult because they're struggling with our demands, either because they're confused about what we want, or because we haven't given them enough of what they need (time, exposure) to be able to comply.

I'm at a place in my life where patience, and acceptance of what my horse can give me without needing to struggle comes easily to me, and what a difference that change has made to my perception of who was actually the one who was being difficult before. :(

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Re: Tell me about your "difficult" horse-- or difficult times

Postby piedmontfields » Wed Aug 24, 2016 11:51 am

mari wrote:
Chisamba wrote:Also off topic slightly, but I am the opposite. The more stressful work is, the more relieving and rewarding it is to have the concentration and single minded focus of dressage. Hacking around does not have the same exclusive focus of training. It is the very act of excluding all else and focusing only on the moment that relieves and decompresses me.


This is how I feel about it as well. Riding is such a focused activity for me that there is no space in my head for anything else. I call it my meditation time.


This is how it works for me during times of "normal" stress and a big part of why I love dressage! However, during times of "super stress", my body is tighter and less capable of good schooling. So I lower expectations for me and go hacking. I still expect nice work from my mare, but it is easier on both of us.

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Re: Tell me about your "difficult" horse-- or difficult times

Postby exvet » Wed Aug 24, 2016 1:26 pm

"This is how it works for me during times of "normal" stress and a big part of why I love dressage! However, during times of "super stress", my body is tighter and less capable of good schooling. So I lower expectations for me and go hacking. I still expect nice work from my mare, but it is easier on both of us."

Ditto......

Riding is my go to, my escape, my focus but when I get too stressed and have it coming from all ends I get TOO FOCUSED which I've learned isn't fair for stinker. I have had other horses who could handle it; but, he's not about to and listening to him has made a huge difference for me, for my riding, etc. We all handle stress differently.

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Re: Tell me about your "difficult" horse-- or difficult times

Postby Ponichiwa » Wed Aug 24, 2016 1:49 pm

Piedmont, you're singing the song of my people.

The challenge is that when I'm very stressed, as it appears I am now, that I lose the ability to turn off that work/life/whatever-it-is-outside-of-dressage tightness. So that's not an effective way to train or ride. Meanwhile Kiwi is relaxed by movement, so trundling along in the fields or on the trail is not the no-pressure ride for her that it would be for me.

So, even though I really did not want to work in the arena yesterday, that's where we went. And things were actually pretty good (ignoring that we're still in the throes of getting-fit-to-work-again, where the work goes from beautiful to garbage and back again pretty quickly). So, go figure. As soon as I vent about it, the problem vanishes.

Conundrums abound. As someone famous (Frost?) once said, the only way over is through.

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Re: Tell me about your "difficult" horse-- or difficult times

Postby Ryeissa » Wed Aug 24, 2016 3:02 pm

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Re: Tell me about your "difficult" horse-- or difficult times

Postby piedmontfields » Wed Aug 24, 2016 4:50 pm

Ponichiwa wrote: Meanwhile Kiwi is relaxed by movement, so trundling along in the fields or on the trail is not the no-pressure ride for her that it would be for me...Conundrums abound. As someone famous (Frost?) once said, the only way over is through.


Glad for your report! Yes, the way over is through.

I agree that movement is relaxing for horses, especially the hotter ones. My mare really shifts a mental gear on hill work---I think the geometry of the task (long lines with a clear border on one side) + me saying GO MOVE OUT DAMMIT lets her release and relax while I cruise along and post large without my stressed tight hips getting in the way :lol:

p.s. I was really glad that we had done three sets of hills *before* we nearly stepped on the fawn!

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Re: Tell me about your "difficult" horse-- or difficult times

Postby Tuddy » Wed Sep 07, 2016 6:18 pm

kande50 wrote:
Chisamba wrote:Anyway, difficult horses take more empathy than others. You have to struggle to understand the reason, and then be better able to influence the behavior.


Agree. Difficult horses are difficult because they're struggling with our demands, either because they're confused about what we want, or because we haven't given them enough of what they need (time, exposure) to be able to comply.

I'm at a place in my life where patience, and acceptance of what my horse can give me without needing to struggle comes easily to me, and what a difference that change has made to my perception of who was actually the one who was being difficult before. :(



PREACH!

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Re: Tell me about your "difficult" horse-- or difficult times

Postby Ponichiwa » Wed Oct 05, 2016 12:41 pm

Checking in over a month later.

I've made two changes that have really improved our quality of life:
    1. Gave myself permission to be less ambitious
    2. Walked in hand for 5 min before getting on, which has given Kiwi some time to start breathing under saddle before I get on

Additionally as referenced in the Oct/Nov thread, there was a conversation in a separate thread about counter shoulder in, and counter bend in serpentines. That's basically been our Xanax lately. Big loopy serpentines in counter bend with a change of bend each time across the centerline while keeping the tempo more or less the same has really helped take the stress out of bending through the body. A few repetitions of that and she's been loose and ready to go.

We're not yet back to where we were, but yesterday I had a legitimate cadenced half-pass in the trot in both directions.

Thanks for being a sounding board. I appreciate it.

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Re: Tell me about your "difficult" horse-- or difficult times

Postby kande50 » Wed Oct 05, 2016 1:19 pm

Ponichiwa wrote:Checking in over a month later.

2. Walked in hand for 5 min before getting on, which has given Kiwi some time to start breathing under saddle before I get on


Is she spooky? I used to walk my horse around at least once so that he could look at things before I got on--or sometimes I'd just get on (thinking that there wasn't really much for him to spook at), and then if he started looking I'd get off and walk him around until he could stop looking. But I don't remember you talking about Kiwi being spooky so much as high energy/wound up?

Either way, it sounds like a good plan.

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Re: Tell me about your "difficult" horse-- or difficult times

Postby Ponichiwa » Wed Oct 05, 2016 7:27 pm

She's not particularly spooky, but she is definitely "girthy"-- I've gone down the vet route and there hasn't been a real reason that we can find. I think it's similar to how she can feel almost claustrophobic in the contact at times. This is not a pony that likes to be inconvenienced by others.

Anyway, that 5 minute walk does several things. One, it gets me moving and that is never bad news. And two, it gives her a chance to adjust to the saddle situation without me on her. Yes this horse is 9, and yes I thought we would be past this, but I'm starting to realize discretion is the better part of valor.

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Re: Tell me about your "difficult" horse-- or difficult times

Postby kande50 » Thu Oct 06, 2016 11:01 am

Ponichiwa wrote:She's not particularly spooky, but she is definitely "girthy"-- I've gone down the vet route and there hasn't been a real reason that we can find. I think it's similar to how she can feel almost claustrophobic in the contact at times. This is not a pony that likes to be inconvenienced by others.


It's probably much more than inconvenience from her pov, because it doesn't sound like she's been spoiled or babied so she may have very good reasons for her reactions?

Have you tried feeding her treats during girthing? If it's a physical problem they probably won't make any difference because a few treats aren't going to overshadow considerable pain, even with a pony, but if it's a fear problem they might. As long as you only feed the treats for girthing and then leave them behind, she'll soon figure out that it's a waste of time to look for them at any other time so you won't even need to teach her about the futility of mugging.

Yes this horse is 9, and yes I thought we would be past this, but I'm starting to realize discretion is the better part of valor.


Sometimes we just can't know what the problem is, so it makes all kinds of sense to me to give them the benefit of any doubt. I believe that horses are incredibly stoic, so if they're showing all kinds of distress over some issue the issue may be much more serious than we think it is.

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Re: Tell me about your "difficult" horse-- or difficult times

Postby Kirby's Keeper » Thu Oct 06, 2016 12:31 pm

Ponichiwa, I'm not sure where you are located but see if you can find an animal Bowen practitioner. They can help horses with longstanding issues such as spooking and general anxiety as well as any physcal issues. Bowen will help lower adrenaline and cortisol levels that have become stuck at elevated levels. I have done this with various horses that I have worked on including a OTTB long confirmed weaver who no longer weaves. I have also been getting great results in lowering stress and anxiety levels in people.

Using TTouch ground work and bodywork is also very beneficial for these horses and their riders to help slow down the horse's reaction to various stimuli that would normally trigger a big reaction. By slowing things down it gives them time to process your request and not just be reactive.

Cheers!

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Re: Tell me about your "difficult" horse-- or difficult times

Postby Ponichiwa » Wed Oct 19, 2016 4:13 pm

Kande and Kirby's Keeper,

Thanks for the comments. Really do appreciate the insight.

I've a 5-year history of stuffing Kiwi full of sugar during the tacking up and girth tightening process, so at this point I'm fairly sure that the food is not sufficient to recondition her expectations.

I also have a 4-year history (changed last summer) of riding her like a baby horse all the time. I.e. being very careful about how I put my leg on, avoiding challenging topics, etc. Which means every week the things we were allowed to do without upsetting her got smaller and smaller and I had many workarounds for things that are no-big-deal to normal horses. This is my first super-green training project and some mistakes were made.

I'm not sure if there are any TTouch practitioners in the area. I'll give it a shot.

Upside: we're still on a positive trend for rides this month. She had all of last week off due to my traveling for work, and went right back into work on Saturday as if we'd never had a break. I'm optimistic.

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Re: Tell me about your "difficult" horse-- or difficult times

Postby kande50 » Wed Oct 19, 2016 6:34 pm

Ponichiwa wrote:
I've a 5-year history of stuffing Kiwi full of sugar during the tacking up and girth tightening process, so at this point I'm fairly sure that the food is not sufficient to recondition her expectations.


My horses don't really care much about sugar (or apples or carrots) compared to higher value treats like sweet feed (which I think may be their favorite), or even oats. So just as an experiment you might want to try some grain, just to see if a higher value treat might make a difference to her?

And if that doesn't seem to have any effect then she must either have deep seated fear issues, or girthing is still just uncomfortable enough that it triggers fear?

I also have a 4-year history (changed last summer) of riding her like a baby horse all the time. I.e. being very careful about how I put my leg on, avoiding challenging topics, etc. Which means every week the things we were allowed to do without upsetting her got smaller and smaller and I had many workarounds for things that are no-big-deal to normal horses. This is my first super-green training project and some mistakes were made.


Interesting, because horses are usually so cooperative and respond so well to soft, gentle, patient methods. Is it possible that she might have some kind of horsie ptsd from something that happened to her, or do you think that's just the way she is?

She sounds like quite a project!

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Re: Tell me about your "difficult" horse-- or difficult times

Postby Ponichiwa » Wed Oct 19, 2016 7:32 pm

She was sold a lot (A LOT) before she ended up with me. I'm owner #8, and I got her when she was 3. Additionally, she was moved around a lot-- started in FL, moved to IL, did some young horse showing in MD, somehow ended up in TX, where I bought her and then moved her to MI and PA and then back to TX-- and I don't think that helps.

I do think that she's a bit defensive/reactive in part because she saw so much change.

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Re: Tell me about your "difficult" horse-- or difficult times

Postby Chisamba » Wed Oct 19, 2016 9:18 pm

I think that nervous horses actually respond better to firm, ( not unkind but firm) boundaries and clear directives, with patience. But absolutely, i had a horse come in for training that had shrunken into a tiny bubble of fear because her owner had continually avoided those things that upset her, rather than habituating her to them.

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Re: Tell me about your "difficult" horse-- or difficult times

Postby demi » Wed Oct 19, 2016 10:01 pm

Jumping in here with my own difficulties. I've had Emma almost a year now and after today's ride I was wondering if she will ever come around. I've posted about her background (as much as I know, because it is hard to know the truth behind most horses that are up for sale). I have avoided things that upset her because I want to give her confidence that I am NOT going to push her to the point that she is uncomfortable. And I am going with the presumption that she was pushed too hard in her past.

Chisamba wrote:I think that nervous horses actually respond better to firm, ( not unkind but firm) boundaries and clear directives, with patience. But absolutely, i had a horse come in for training that had shrunken into a tiny bubble of fear because her owner had continually avoided those things that upset her, rather than habituating her to them.


I am firm, but kind, with her, but I limit in a lot of ways what I ask from her. For instance, very little canter because that was an issue and I think it's why she was sold. I have only cantered when it "feels right" and then she gives me a nice canter. There is also the whip thing. Being registered half Arab she may have been shown and or trained for Arab halter and that would explain why she is afraid of the whip. I recently started carrying it. Not using it, just carrying it. I carried it for two days, rode without for one day, and today I carried it again. She wasn't a basket case, but she was what I would call mildly anxious. Just walk/trot. A couple of times when I asked for trot she got a hump in her back. I softened to her and when she relaxed, I asked again, and she obeyed. I continued to ride and was satisfied that she was trying to work with me, but unsatisfied that after a year she still threatened me (hump in the back).And I am worried about the point Chisamba brings up...by avoiding things that cause her discomfort am I shrinking her into a tiny bubble.

Originally, I hoped that after I got her very long feet/toes corrected she would feel better. Well, the toes were corrected within the first 3 trimming cycles but her legs are still really crooked. Here is a recent picture
Image

Sorry the image is Sooo big but at least I got it to post!

She doesn't always stand like this but she does often enough to make me cringe..

I welcome any comments....

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Re: Tell me about your "difficult" horse-- or difficult times

Postby kande50 » Thu Oct 20, 2016 9:27 am

Ponichiwa wrote:
I do think that she's a bit defensive/reactive in part because she saw so much change.


It is possible that she was "flooded" with new experiences instead of more gradually habituated to them, so all that exposure made her less confident because of the way it was done?

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Re: Tell me about your "difficult" horse-- or difficult times

Postby kande50 » Thu Oct 20, 2016 9:41 am

demi wrote:I continued to ride and was satisfied that she was trying to work with me, but unsatisfied that after a year she still threatened me (hump in the back).And I am worried about the point Chisamba brings up...by avoiding things that cause her discomfort am I shrinking her into a tiny bubble.


I think the path we choose depends entirely upon our philosophy when it comes to training horses, and our time frame. I feel like it's all just one big tradeoff. We can choose what is often referred to as "chunks of behavior" or quantity first, or we can break it down, concentrate on the details more, and go for quality first.

I think it all depends on what each individual trainer finds most rewarding, because one thing we can't have is everything all at once. :-)

I used to be in the quantity camp but am now in the quality camp, and while I can get bogged down in details to the point where progress probably seems larval to those who are in the quantity camp, as long as I'm confident that the bubble is expanding rather than shrinking I'm happy.

Not that there aren't sometimes steps backwards before going forward again, although I do think that's often way more about my perception that we've lost ground because I'm focusing on one small detail that I remember as being more developed than it actually was.

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Re: Tell me about your "difficult" horse-- or difficult times

Postby demi » Thu Oct 20, 2016 12:11 pm

kande50 wrote:....
Not that there aren't sometimes steps backwards before going forward again, although I do think that's often way more about my perception that we've lost ground because I'm focusing on one small detail that I remember as being more developed than it actually was.


Thanks for the thoughts. Your last comment resonated with me. I think the main problem is my perception. I knew Emma was a project when I bought her but sometimes she feels so good that I think I am much further along with her than I actually am. Then something happens that doesn't feel so good and my mind goes in a hundred directions.

Bottom line: It's the journey that is important and I like traveling with Emma. I need to settle back down and continue the journey.

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Re: Tell me about your "difficult" horse-- or difficult times

Postby kande50 » Thu Oct 20, 2016 12:45 pm

demi wrote:Thanks for the thoughts. Your last comment resonated with me. I think the main problem is my perception. I knew Emma was a project when I bought her but sometimes she feels so good that I think I am much further along with her than I actually am. Then something happens that doesn't feel so good and my mind goes in a hundred directions.


Yup. :-) But once we catch on to the idea that our own perceptions are not necessarily reliable, then we can take that into account when we're trying to decide what we need to do next.

The reason I've always wanted to go to shows was to get objective opinions on how the training was progressing relative to a standard, because I knew how skewed my own perceptions could get.

I remember working on learning how to clicker train for a long time and getting impatient because it seemed so slow, so decided that I'd just switch back to pressure and release for some of the behaviors that I remembered being much easier to train that way.

So I did, and soon realized that the reason I remembered it as so much easier was because it was easier to get more activity from the horse, even when he didn't really understand what it was that he needed to do. So what I remembered as so much faster and easier wasn't actually, when I evaluated it again from a different perspective.

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Re: Tell me about your "difficult" horse-- or difficult times

Postby Chisamba » Thu Oct 20, 2016 2:31 pm

Another perspective. Its about the horse. Each horse is an individual. The same technique is not always effective on different horses.

In my Deneb thread some one recommended making her sweat. Sweat equity. Forward work. I nearly gave up on her because i applied this principle when starting her. Then i discovered she gets wound up, increased anxiety when active. What she needed was the opposite. Stop. Stand, walk, slow habituation.

I wouls say that most horses, the majority, learn better while moving. They assess things better and are more confident in motion. Kimba, in particular, If she is a bit anxious relaxes if i let her go forward first.

People tend to like certain types of horses because they are familiar with what it takes to work with them. Quarter horse trainers usually do not appreciate Arabians ( huge generalization).

What do the difficult horses teach us? To expand our toolbox as it were.

I cannot give you good advice about your horse because i like to see the horse. See it in turn out, see it in the stall, see it in grooming. See it in work. Does it push into or back away from hand on flank contact. Does it raise or lower its head when a hand is placed on the poll. If you tap its leg does it move just one foot, both front legs, or all four feet.

Looking at your photo of your horse i would have a neurological exam checking for proprioception.

Anyway, when i take on a horse, i notice these things. I was not always even aware of how much this information develops my approach but age brougjt wisdom brought me to try and teach others the value of these observations.

Anyway, i suppose thatvwas a long stream if unhelpfulness.

I visited a barn once. Was invited to ride. Was given an assigned horse and tack. Checked it out as i tacked up, reading it's responses. Hopped on soent ten to fiftten minutes walk trot, canter, a bit shoulder in, horse was a bit green but willing to give what it could. Went on the trail, walk yrot canter. Jumped a low log.

The horse had been in training for six months, so was a bit green as expected.

Got back and the trainer was in lather. ( i was riding with the owner and had not met the trainer ) i complimented her on the horses.progress. she was furious because " the horse doesn't know how to canter " i proceeded, at the owners request, to shiw her several cantervtransitions in each lead . My point? Most of the time the rider prevents the horse from reaching its potential, and I believe trainers who focus on minutiae are most commonly guilty of it. This trainer had done an excellent job of preparing tjis horse to be ridden but in attempting to.perfect the details, she ignoref what the owner wanted, and what the horsevwas capable of.

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Re: Tell me about your "difficult" horse-- or difficult times

Postby Sue B » Thu Oct 20, 2016 3:45 pm

Demi, regarding the whip thing...whether she ever relaxes when you carry the whip depends on why she's worried about it. Scotty, a TB I had for 20 years, was horribly abused before I got him. He was literally beaten to a froth with a dressage whip more than once when he was just 3 and 4 years old. He came to me not knowing human kindness in association with being ridden. While eventually, I could carry the whip and sometimes even use it, he never did completely trust that he would not be hurt with it. Nonetheless, I persisted with carrying it (took 2 yrs of carrying it every day until I could go a whole ride without him freaking out) and eventually, holding it against his side while on a circle. The dressage whip is an important tool as you climb the levels which is why I never gave up. Takes a ton of patience though. Keeping a journal will help you to celebrate the small victories and keep you from fretting about the occasional set backs.

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Re: Tell me about your "difficult" horse-- or difficult times

Postby demi » Thu Oct 20, 2016 5:04 pm

Sue B, thanks for your input. I feel better after hearing about your experience. I know this will take time but I needed to hear someone else tell me. I have gotten lazy about keeping a journal, but I do write a brief couple of sentences on my barn calendar after every single ride. I will try to do better because as you pointed out, it will help me celebrate the victories and not fret so much about the occasional set backs. Thanks again. Very helpful.

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Re: Tell me about your "difficult" horse-- or difficult times

Postby demi » Thu Oct 20, 2016 5:35 pm

Chisamba, thanks for your input, too. I wish you could actually see Emma because I have a feeling you could give me some good insight. I think she's a bit complicated, but the right person would be able to figure her out faster than me. She had been with a good pro for almost a year when I bought her, however, and she hadn't figured out the problem...she had some really nice horse flesh of her own and I just think she felt Emma wasn't worth the effort.

The symptom was that she couldn't hold the canter. The trainer uses the same vet as I do and she had her thoroughly examined before they put her up for sale. Vet found nothing. Trainer thought the problem was in the back. Owner thought the problem was in the hocks. I thought it was that she was trimmed so that her feet were way too long, and the angles were broken back on all four feet. As far as a neurological problem, my gut feeling is no, however when I have the vet out next time I'll definitely ask him about it.

As long as I keep the right perspective it isn't an issue. I'm lucky to have a horse. I'm lucky to have Emma. And I'm lucky to have a good group of knowledgeable horse lovers on this BB to discuss this with. Thanks.

I was able to get a short vid of her galloping in the pasture today that I think shows her crooked hind legs. I am still hoping that all she needs is to get stronger. I'll try to post it (maybe on a different thread) if I can figure out how.


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