Clinic / lesson cut short

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ElaPe
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Clinic / lesson cut short

Postby ElaPe » Sat Nov 05, 2016 10:10 pm

What do you do if your clinic/ lesson is being cut short?

I went to a clinic, which wasn't cheap plus the horse transport and instead of 45 min I rode 30 min. I still paid the same. No explanation given or anything.

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Re: Clinic / lesson cut short

Postby myleetlepony » Sat Nov 05, 2016 11:28 pm

Why was it cut short? Sometimes if the horse isn't completely conditioned to the work or introducing something new may tax the horse physically or mentally, there's good reason to cut it short.

When I'm approached about lessons, I give my fee but say that I don't put a time limit on it. Depending on what's being worked on, finessed, or introduced it may only be 20-30 min, some lessons may go 60 or so.

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Re: Clinic / lesson cut short

Postby ElaPe » Sun Nov 06, 2016 12:39 pm

I think it was cut short because we started later than scheduled - some earlier delays caused my lesson started later and I was the last one and there was lunch scheduled so I guess he was in a hurry to go to lunch.

My horse is in good condition, and even if it wasn't, there are plenty of things to focus on and do even in walk.

By the way, I see it all the time in my stable. There is this woman trainer, she is an old eventer, and she trains people and rides their horses. She charges 60$ for 30 min. training. I have never seen her riding exactly 30 min. It is always, always cut short by 10 min. People riding with her do not mind it but I find it weird and puzzled why people agree to such, agree to waste their money like that. Is it a normal thing here in the US or something? And when she rides peoples horses, her ride, and I am not kidding can take.... 5 minutes! Not to mention the a hole bunch of gadgets she uses when she or her beginner students are made to ride with where draw rein is on of the favourites.

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Re: Clinic / lesson cut short

Postby Josette » Sun Nov 06, 2016 1:14 pm

IMO this trainer you describe gets away with her methods because the owners/riders allow it. I've seen it too. She wouldn't get any of my money and certainly not train my horse.

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Re: Clinic / lesson cut short

Postby ElaPe » Sun Nov 06, 2016 2:02 pm

Josette wrote:IMO this trainer you describe gets away with her methods because the owners/riders allow it. I've seen it too. She wouldn't get any of my money and certainly not train my horse.


That's true. These students of hers do allow her to cut the lessons short. This trainer is so nice and talkative and praising their horses that they are so happy with her and keep training with her.

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Re: Clinic / lesson cut short

Postby greenholmeshandy » Sun Nov 06, 2016 7:24 pm

My instructor sometimes cuts lessons short, usually when pony is too tired to do more, or has done something so well that its the right moment to end on. That is fine by me and she always explains her decision. She occasionally over runs so 1 hr becomes 1 hour 15 for example if there is an issue that is on the cusp of being resolved. I don't think it helps to be too prescriptive about paying per minute, perhaps in the case of the trainer who trains 20 minutes every one knows how long they are paying for. I did however many years ago pay a trainer exactly half her fee for an hours lesson as she spent half of it on her mobile. She didn't teach me again but I didn't think that was a great loss!
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Re: Clinic / lesson cut short

Postby Kelo » Sun Nov 06, 2016 8:25 pm

I would want an explanation for it.

In my regular lessons, sometimes we finish 10min or so before "time" but it is always when we have reached a finish point. There are also times we run over for the same reason.

I find that acceptable. Not so much in a one-time clinic type session. That would really annoy me. Clinics are expensive!

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Re: Clinic / lesson cut short

Postby ElaPe » Sun Nov 06, 2016 11:52 pm

I find that acceptable. Not so much in a one-time clinic type session. That would really annoy me. Clinics are expensive!


That's why I am so disappointed. The ride was shortened by 15 minutes! That is 1/3 of the ride. The clinic cost was 160$.

I do give lessons from time to time and can't imagine shortening the agreed riding time. One can always do something in walk, correct the posture, say something more theoretical and so on and so forth.

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Re: Clinic / lesson cut short

Postby capstone » Mon Nov 07, 2016 12:04 am

My experience aligns with Kelo's. In a regular lesson program with a particular trainer, any given lesson could go over or under the time allotted. In a clinic, I would not expect to be cut short unless it was clearly in the best interest of the horse or it was mutually agreed.

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Re: Clinic / lesson cut short

Postby myleetlepony » Mon Nov 07, 2016 12:31 am

I think it was cut short because we started later than scheduled - some earlier delays caused my lesson started later and I was the last one and there was lunch scheduled so I guess he was in a hurry to go to lunch.


Yes, that would seriously annoy me. Other people's delay's are not your responsibility. I'd even be annoyed if those delays cut my lesson short so the instructor could catch a plane on time!

As far as regular lessons with a regular instructor, sometimes it's not fair to the horse to go past a certain point. For example, I'm currently helping a woman who's horse hadn't been ridden for 3 years and he has some physical issues going on. He expresses after some time that he is starting to get muscle sore, even in the walk work. Even if it's only been 20 mins, it's not fair to him to keep going, so we end on a happy note after a good effort from him. She's seen other people's lessons that have been with me for a while go into the 75 minute zone, so she knows in the end, it will balance out.

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Re: Clinic / lesson cut short

Postby M&M » Mon Nov 07, 2016 12:51 am

I agree with myleetlepony. In the hair splitting category, there are times when the horse is tired, or has just done something brilliantly, that you need to end right now. But not on a regular basis, and NOT in a clinic, certainly not with out an explanation. "Your just backed 3 year old just did perfect one tempis, passage, and three canter pirouettes in counter canter. I know we're only ten minutes into our time, but let's end on that, shall we?"

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Re: Clinic / lesson cut short

Postby ElaPe » Mon Nov 07, 2016 2:15 am

My horse is a seasoned 13 year old mare, I've had her since she was 4 and trained her myself (trainer never rode her) up to 3rd level.

She is very fit and except Mondays (day off) and another day for lunging work, is ridden daily for an hour in the ring, little longer if we do the trail ride. I do not have an indoor but I do not skip riding because it is too hot, too cold, too snowy, too windy, too rainy, too buggy, too muddy, too foggy, too dry and so on and so forth. In my opinion there is no bad weather, only bad choice of clothing (or plain laziness wrapped up in lots of excuses). If it's too hot I ride easy trail ride under the trees, or just do the walking, in the winter with lots of snow I also adjust the riding to what can be done, sometimes only walk.

Re. cutting a lesson short. I do not buy the explanation that a lesson has to be cut short if a horse and/or rider are not fit for a full lesson length. In such a situation one agrees on a shorter lesson and fee for that. Also, if it would turn out during a lesson that it is too long because of fitness problems, one can suggest walk exercises and so on.

Argument that "the horse did something good so we finish early" does not appeal to me either. What if the horse did something good after 20 min and the lesson was to be 60 min. Do you cut it short and accept fee for the whole lesson? Do you cut is short and cut your fee? Why instead of cutting the lesson short can't one do a walk break and then work on something else, maybe easier thing.

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Re: Clinic / lesson cut short

Postby myleetlepony » Mon Nov 07, 2016 2:30 am

Well, in my case, I base my lesson fees off "30 min", so no, I would not take a full fee for 60 minutes with 20 mins worth of work. I keep it around the 30 minute mark (and expecting the client to warm up their horse prior to our start time) so that I have the option to go more or less and still feel it's a fair rate.

I have an issue with people that *make* their horses do things beyond their comfort level to soothe the owner's ego. If a horse is tired or sore, don't push them. If a horse did REALLY REALLY well, especially on something they've been struggling with, practice a few times and be done. Leave the horse feeling good and happy to come back to work the next day. Even on a well conditioned horse, sometimes a short, intense session is better than a long, easier one. Really, this is all about the horse, not human ego.

That said, I can empathize with your feelings on the clinic situation.

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Re: Clinic / lesson cut short

Postby myleetlepony » Mon Nov 07, 2016 2:31 am

"Your just backed 3 year old just did perfect one tempis, passage, and three canter pirouettes in counter canter. I know we're only ten minutes into our time, but let's end on that, shall we?"


:lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Clinic / lesson cut short

Postby kande50 » Mon Nov 07, 2016 9:20 am

ElaPe wrote:Argument that "the horse did something good so we finish early" does not appeal to me either. What if the horse did something good after 20 min and the lesson was to be 60 min. Do you cut it short and accept fee for the whole lesson? Do you cut is short and cut your fee? Why instead of cutting the lesson short can't one do a walk break and then work on something else, maybe easier thing.


I'm with you in that unless the horse is so seriously unfit that he shouldn't do more, even in walk, a short break is a sufficient reward and then the lesson should resume. Or, if the instructor thinks that it's time to end the lesson then at the very least they should get agreement from the student before doing so.

Also, now that you know that it can happen, you can have your strategy ready in case it happens again. IOW, express your disappointment when the clinician tries to end the lesson, and let them know that you want to ride for the full time.

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Re: Clinic / lesson cut short

Postby ElaPe » Mon Nov 07, 2016 1:58 pm

Also, now that you know that it can happen, you can have your strategy ready in case it happens again. IOW, express your disappointment when the clinician tries to end the lesson, and let them know that you want to ride for the full time.


Yes, I think that is a good idea.

Nevertheless, it is quite annoying that one has to have "strategies", worry and be uncomfortable about how to inform the clinician that I expect a full lesson and not the cut short one, instead of just enjoying the clinic.

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Re: Clinic / lesson cut short

Postby angela9823 » Mon Nov 07, 2016 4:15 pm

I wonder...was there any expectation set at the beginning of what your goal was for the day? For instance, we wanted to work on x and x. If you accomplished those goals, I think you got your money's worth. I think it really important that a rider set expectations from the clinician and communicate it. If those aren't communicated then your clinician makes up their own goals and once those are accomplished, the ride is over. But if you communicated goals and they did not get worked on, I'd have major issue with it being cut short if your horse were physically able to handle it.

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Re: Clinic / lesson cut short

Postby ElaPe » Mon Nov 07, 2016 4:29 pm

Yes, there were goals: work on bend in traverses. Accomplishing a goal that is horse bending correctly and easily in all three gaits is not possible during one single 30 min clinic. It is merely showing the way to achieve it.

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Re: Clinic / lesson cut short

Postby musical comedy » Mon Nov 07, 2016 4:43 pm

I have mixed feelings about this. First, I do understand wanting to get one's money's worth.

Assuming that you warmed up your horse before you started the clinic (and that I would insist upon), then 30 minutes of 'work' is really enough imo when you are working in collection. Think about it. It's rare to find anyone ride (for example) a PSG and and I1 test in the same day or even two 4th level tests in one day even though the test itself is only ~6 minutes long. That is because the collection required at that level is strenuous. When you count a warmup of say 15 minutes plus the 6 minute test, that is really a decent bit of work for a horse.

When it comes to being in full training, I can only speak for myself and what I've seen. Generally, these top trainers do not have a typical 'lesson' with their clients. They just work a short bit with them one-on-one. These trainers usually have many clients in training plus horses of their own to ride. Only so many hours in the day.

In my many years of riding, I have not ridden in but a handful of 'clinics'. I found them all totally worthless. It's best to work with someone on a regular basis that knows you and your horse.

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Re: Clinic / lesson cut short

Postby ElaPe » Mon Nov 07, 2016 5:26 pm

In my many years of riding, I have not ridden in but a handful of 'clinics'. I found them all totally worthless. It's best to work with someone on a regular basis that knows you and your horse.


I would say this clinic was helpful. Yet I can't get rid of the feeling I was cheated.

The conclusion from above replies is that every excuse is good enough to cut short a lesson/clinic one is paying a lot of money for and that students have been convinced to accept these excuses and to accept that clinics/lessons can be cut short. (I AM TALKING ABOUT A FIT RIDER AND A FIT HORSE).

Back in Europe I have watched clinics with Kyra Kyrklund and Ulla Salzgeber. None of those rides were cut short, on the contrary, some varied even a few minutes longer.

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Re: Clinic / lesson cut short

Postby kande50 » Mon Nov 07, 2016 7:01 pm

ElaPe wrote:Nevertheless, it is quite annoying that one has to have "strategies", worry and be uncomfortable about how to inform the clinician that I expect a full lesson and not the cut short one, instead of just enjoying the clinic.


We don't have to have strategies, because we always have the option of just blurting out whatever is going through our minds and hope we don't offend anyone too much. But I like to try to be as tactful as possible, because I just find that I enjoy the clinic more if everyone is enjoying it.

And clinicians have no way of knowing what we want if we don't at least ask if we can work on something, or go a little longer, or .... I think the reason they cut lessons short sometimes is because most don't mind, or don't say anything if they do.

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Re: Clinic / lesson cut short

Postby ElaPe » Mon Nov 07, 2016 9:14 pm

"strategy" i.e. think whether or not say to the clinician "I expect the full lesson and not a shortened one" and how to put it. Very annoying that one even has to think about such a thing that should go without saying: client pays for 45 min and gets 45 min, even if the last minutes have to be just talking, walking with the horse, whatever. The trainer IS THERE with the client.

And clinicians have no way of knowing what we want if we don't at least ask if we can work on something, or go a little longer, or


Of course clinician knows what the rider wants: that is how the training starts - with rider telling what his problem is (in his/her opinion) and the clinician assessing the rider.

In my case the last 15 minutes could have ended on walk work - the horse had to be walked anyway. I mentioned to him I have problems with walk pirouettes. If not walk pirouettes, that could be work on extended walk or free walk, proper halts, correcting my seat, giving the time to questions, discussion. There are plenty of ways to spend the last 15 min without straining the horse.


.... I think the reason they cut lessons short sometimes is because most don't mind, or don't say anything if they do.


that is my conclusion too.

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Re: Clinic / lesson cut short

Postby Kelo » Mon Nov 07, 2016 10:31 pm

ElaPe wrote:
I find that acceptable. Not so much in a one-time clinic type session. That would really annoy me. Clinics are expensive!


That's why I am so disappointed. The ride was shortened by 15 minutes! That is 1/3 of the ride. The clinic cost was 160$.

I do give lessons from time to time and can't imagine shortening the agreed riding time. One can always do something in walk, correct the posture, say something more theoretical and so on and so forth.


I totally feel you, that is really frustrating and I would be unhappy, too.

As far as your comment on shortening the ride time....as I said, it's with a regular instructor and the vast majority of the time, we end on time. But sometimes, for whatever reason, we come to a natural conclusion at, say, 35 minutes, instead of 45 minutes. Maybe the work has been more intense and we're at a physical limit, maybe I'm mentally "full" or we just rocked the casbah on a tough problem and am satisfied with stopping there. Then again, sometimes I have a horrid case of the stupids and she's forced to explain "Super Basic Concept" yet again, and we end up going an hour. Maybe what I'm getting at is we have a mutual respect of each other's time, because we are able to work with each other regularly? So if I feel like we've done enough for one session, regardless of time, we quit, and if I am in need of help, regardless of time, she doesn't leave me hanging.

A relationship that may not exist with a clinician, so not applicable to this specific case. In this case, you, your time and money were disrespected by the clinician, and that's hurtful.

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Re: Clinic / lesson cut short

Postby Bats79 » Tue Nov 08, 2016 1:10 am

I have seen lessons that seem shorter (when you video the entire lesson for someone you get a good idea of how long it really goes for) but with a GOOD instructor there is a genuine reason and even then it has only been at the max 35 mins out of 45. In this case the horse was clearly tired from using itself much better and they had ended on a good note.

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Re: Clinic / lesson cut short

Postby ElaPe » Tue Nov 08, 2016 2:09 am

Yes, the lesson seemed shorter and it was shorter - I have recorded my entire lesson - and it was exactly 30 min.

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Re: Clinic / lesson cut short

Postby orono » Tue Nov 08, 2016 5:23 am

How was the quality of the work and coaching during the 30 mins?

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Re: Clinic / lesson cut short

Postby Flight » Tue Nov 08, 2016 7:39 am

If the lesson stopped early because I'd made a big breakthrough, or we were working on something and managed to get it and needed to leave it at that I'd be ok.
If we were still chipping away at it, I'd be unhappy if it finished early.
I probably wouldn't say anything if that happened, but I probably wouldn't bother having another lesson, especially at that price.

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Re: Clinic / lesson cut short

Postby Chisamba » Tue Nov 08, 2016 9:31 am

I think I would have asked. Most clinics I have been to run 45 min for 2 and 30 min for a private. If the advertised time was 45 and I rode for only 30 i would both n5e miffed and say something,...or as Flight says, decline to ride with them again.

Perhaps however it was only supposed to be 30 min and you were misinformed as to the length of the ride.

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Re: Clinic / lesson cut short

Postby ElaPe » Tue Nov 08, 2016 2:25 pm

orono wrote:How was the quality of the work and coaching during the 30 mins?


The trainer's work was good during this 30 min. session.

Chisamba wrote:I think I would have asked. Most clinics I have been to run 45 min for 2 and 30 min for a private. If the advertised time was 45 and I rode for only 30 i would both n5e miffed and say something,...or as Flight says, decline to ride with them again.

Perhaps however it was only supposed to be 30 min and you were misinformed as to the length of the ride.


The clinic was advertised as 45 min individual sessions.

Next time I decide to go to any clinic I will be very very cautious.

Flight wrote:I probably wouldn't say anything if that happened, but I probably wouldn't bother having another lesson, especially at that price.


That was my reaction too.

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Re: Clinic / lesson cut short

Postby Ryeissa » Tue Nov 08, 2016 2:45 pm

I agree that I would not ride with this person again. Sometimes I have been able to correct situations by not participating and this might be again where I make that decision.

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Re: Clinic / lesson cut short

Postby Tuddy » Tue Nov 08, 2016 5:18 pm

From my limited experience, the only reason I have ever cut my lessons short is because a) the horse is as green as a John Deere tractor and, although may be fit, I don't want to put him into information overload and b) the lesson is flying by and things are great but I reach mental capacity and I ask to stop the lesson.

As for your situation, it sounded like the clinician did it because they have been able to get away with it before. Sorry to hear about your experience.

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Re: Clinic / lesson cut short

Postby ElaPe » Wed Nov 09, 2016 12:15 am

So I complained to the organiser. Told her I was very delighted with the clinician and the lesson, but nevertheless was disappointed that the lesson was cut short by 15 min.

She replied back saying that she thought the lesson went well and maybe therefore it was cut short.

I replied that it indeed went well, but still there were things we could just do in walk.

Then she answered that she talked to the clinician and he was surprised to hear my complaint because he thought the lesson went well. Nevertheless he said at the next clinic he will add this 15 minutes.

I am glad it ended like that, but I am not sure about going to the next clinic and having to think about all that..

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Re: Clinic / lesson cut short

Postby Ryeissa » Wed Nov 09, 2016 12:43 am

that was a bit of a runaround, wasn't it? Its not about it going well, its about getting the proper time! geez. they don't seem to get it!

I wouldn't bother again, but it depends on if you have better/other options and how valuable the clinic was overall.

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Re: Clinic / lesson cut short

Postby ElaPe » Wed Nov 09, 2016 1:07 am

Ryeissa wrote:that was a bit of a runaround, wasn't it? Its not about it going well, its about getting the proper time! geez. they don't seem to get it!

I wouldn't bother again, but it depends on if you have better/other options and how valuable the clinic was overall.


Actually, I complained in order to let her know I was disappointed about it. I did not put pressure on her or anything, just plainly complained.

Indeed, it is about the proper time. What if "everything went well" after 20 minutes? or 15 minutes? Would the lesson stop then?

I find the clinic quite valuable, but am not sure I want to go through such a thing again.

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Re: Clinic / lesson cut short

Postby Chisamba » Wed Nov 09, 2016 1:49 am

Im with you. If advertised as 45 min sessions, give 45 minutes. There is much that can be done without stressing a horse and still fulfilling the obligation

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Re: Clinic / lesson cut short

Postby ElaPe » Wed Nov 09, 2016 3:45 am

Chisamba wrote:Im with you. If advertised as 45 min sessions, give 45 minutes. There is much that can be done without stressing a horse and still fulfilling the obligation


That's exactly what I was expecting.

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Re: Clinic / lesson cut short

Postby kande50 » Wed Nov 09, 2016 10:27 am

ElaPe wrote:I find the clinic quite valuable, but am not sure I want to go through such a thing again.


I'd be inclined to go back and get the rest of my clinic *if* I thought the instruction I got in the last clinic would have been worth $160 if it had gone the full 45 minutes, and if I was okay with working my horse for a full hour to recoup $53.

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Re: Clinic / lesson cut short

Postby StraightForward » Wed Nov 09, 2016 4:19 pm

Even if the horse was tired or "done" in a clinic setting the clinician should offer the rider one-on-one discussion or something to fill in the allotted time at $3.55 per minute. Someone should have been making sure the sessions stayed on time, or run through lunch to make sure you didn't get penalized for others getting extra time.
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Re: Clinic / lesson cut short

Postby Flight » Wed Nov 09, 2016 7:49 pm

Good on you for saying something. Who knows, the clinician may not have thought the 15 mins worried anyone and now they do.
Sometimes we really should just say what we need to and stuff gets cleared up straight away. But most of us (me included) are not willing to.

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Re: Clinic / lesson cut short

Postby ElaPe » Wed Nov 09, 2016 8:58 pm

StraightForward wrote:Even if the horse was tired or "done" in a clinic setting the clinician should offer the rider one-on-one discussion or something to fill in the allotted time at $3.55 per minute. Someone should have been making sure the sessions stayed on time, or run through lunch to make sure you didn't get penalized for others getting extra time.


exactly. This is a costly affair to go to a clinic. I wouldn't mind just walking with the horse and having some discussion.

Flight wrote:Good on you for saying something. Who knows, the clinician may not have thought the 15 mins worried anyone and now they do.
Sometimes we really should just say what we need to and stuff gets cleared up straight away. But most of us (me included) are not willing to.


I thought it is obvious that one gets what one pays for - 45 min. individual session. Now it seems that one has to make sure right from the beginning that one expects the full session and not one cut short.

kande50 wrote:
ElaPe wrote:I find the clinic quite valuable, but am not sure I want to go through such a thing again.


I'd be inclined to go back and get the rest of my clinic *if* I thought the instruction I got in the last clinic would have been worth $160 if it had gone the full 45 minutes, and if I was okay with working my horse for a full hour to recoup $53.


I always work with my horse at home around an hour, longer if I go for a trail ride, so I would be OK to have an hour clinic session.


By the way, I spoke to an acquaintant of mine who is a very active dressage rider here in Long Island, she always goes to different clinics around here and takes regular lessons. She said she has never ever encountered a lesson or a clinic cut short on her. On the contrary, sometimes it would even take a few minutes longer.


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