Suggestions for an over eager forward horse.

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Josette
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Suggestions for an over eager forward horse.

Postby Josette » Sun Nov 06, 2016 10:03 pm

When I got my guy he had been passed around and came with some negative training baggage. Previously he was very tense in the ring from stress being pushed in his training. The ring meant a very negative experience and we have made solid progress in getting him to relax (no more pooping 3 times). There are no more monsters beyond the ring and he can focus on his rider. We have been working on suppling, relaxing and lighter aides off the seat - previously no response to seat aids as in no half-halt response. Again, much improved in his trot work when I can get him to relax to a steady tempo. However, his canter can still get strong and heavy in the hands. This is the training baggage I'm having a hard time undoing in his canter work. Think of those German sale videos where they have the young horses canter up and down the long side - that is how he goes - very eager and strong. Looks lovey to watch but strong in the hand. II try to do a lot of transitions and take him back to trot to regroup, relax and supple as he will curl when he gets really going. Any suggestions for this eager beaver? He is trying so hard to please so I try to make our rides as positive as I can.

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Re: Suggestions for an over eager forward horse.

Postby myleetlepony » Mon Nov 07, 2016 12:49 am

This sounds like a balance issue. It sounds like he came from heavy handed training that allowed him to balance on the bit.

As weird as this sounds...let go. Relax your hand, even give a little, making sure there is absolutely NO tension in your arms. Support with your seat by stabilizing your core, keeping your seat neutral and softly take back contact. You may find you need to do this a few times to get his attention. I've found that horses used to supporting their balance on the bit will avoid using their bodies to balance and try to distract you by focusing on heavy contact. Once I have the horse's attention ("Wait...where did my balance support go?!?), they will start tuning into your body more and more. As you keep the contact soft, use your seat to ask for small circles, large circles, canter squares, anything to distract THEM from the bit and focus on what your body is asking. Use your seat for half halts into a slower tempo on the circles and squares. Don't get into asking for very forward or extended canter in the beginning, work between forward but slightly slowed tempo and light working canters. Too forward or extended will tip his balance back towards the bit.

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Re: Suggestions for an over eager forward horse.

Postby Josette » Mon Nov 07, 2016 1:18 am

Thank you ! I like this approach and will give it a try. Yes - he definitely leans on the bit as you described. So remove the support of leaning and get the focus off the bit. It sounds like a good plan! :)

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Re: Suggestions for an over eager forward horse.

Postby ElaPe » Mon Nov 07, 2016 2:25 am

I think it is a great thing to have a forward going horse. Hopefully he stays forward without of course being overeager. How old is the horse?

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Re: Suggestions for an over eager forward horse.

Postby myleetlepony » Mon Nov 07, 2016 2:33 am

ElaPe wrote:I think it is a great thing to have a forward going horse. Hopefully he stays forward without of course being overeager. How old is the horse?


But she's not talking forward as in power from behind translating up and forward, she's describing forward as in pulling himself along on the forehand, balancing on the bit, and rushing his front end to keep from falling on his face. That's not desirable "forward".

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Re: Suggestions for an over eager forward horse.

Postby ElaPe » Mon Nov 07, 2016 3:52 am

myleetlepony wrote:
ElaPe wrote:I think it is a great thing to have a forward going horse. Hopefully he stays forward without of course being overeager. How old is the horse?


But she's not talking forward as in power from behind translating up and forward, she's describing forward as in pulling himself along on the forehand, balancing on the bit, and rushing his front end to keep from falling on his face. That's not desirable "forward".



As I understand, this horse is indeed forward ("Think of those German sale videos where they have the young horses canter up and down the long side - that is how he goes - very eager and strong"), but the rider feels it too much forward and as a result of this forwardness and overeagerness the rider feels the horse is strong and heavy in hands.

With such a horse I would work in canter in very short periods of time, doing lots of trot transitions. Kind of get him little bored with that. I'd also do many walk breakes so that he relaxes.

At the same time one should be careful not to kill forwardness in a horse.

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Re: Suggestions for an over eager forward horse.

Postby Bats79 » Mon Nov 07, 2016 4:05 am

How does he steer? Many people forget that the horse needs to respond to the rein firstly for steering and stopping, then for contact.

Can you steer him at the canter? If not you might need to look at your basic turns first in walk and then trot so that he doesn't fall over himself in front when you try to steer the canter.

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Re: Suggestions for an over eager forward horse.

Postby Bats79 » Mon Nov 07, 2016 4:08 am

ElaPe wrote:
As I understand, this horse is indeed forward ("Think of those German sale videos where they have the young horses canter up and down the long side - that is how he goes - very eager and strong"), but the rider feels it too much forward and as a result of this forwardness and overeagerness the rider feels the horse is strong and heavy in hands.

With such a horse I would work in canter in very short periods of time, doing lots of trot transitions. Kind of get him little bored with that. I'd also do many walk breakes so that he relaxes.

At the same time one should be careful not to kill forwardness in a horse.



Leaning on the bit and running forward with poor balance is not "forwardness". No one is suggesting that the horse shouldn't be willing to go from the leg but lack of balance is far more detrimental to the long term training than being a bit slow off the leg is.

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Re: Suggestions for an over eager forward horse.

Postby kande50 » Mon Nov 07, 2016 9:08 am

Refuse to pull back. I wouldn't even attempt to canter until he was calm at walk and trot throughout all figures and transitions, and then I'd ease him off into canter and as soon as he tried to speed up I'd just very calmly and smoothly steer him onto a circle, and stay on the circle until I could give him a loose rein without him speeding up.

If he couldn't stay calm on the circle then I'd bring him back down to trot and re-establish calm (and change directions frequently), but usually if they're even close to being able to stay calm in canter, circles will encourage it. (Nothing like repetitions of going nowhere to show them that they can stop worrying now.)

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Re: Suggestions for an over eager forward horse.

Postby Josette » Mon Nov 07, 2016 12:25 pm

Mylettlepony described exactly his prior heavy hand training with a forward gas pedal. It is a tricky situation as I do not want to shut him down and kill his forward. When he is not leaning on my hands he is really awesome and so responsive to seat and leg aids - but then he gets strong. I see that I am the problem too when I am not quick enough to realize his contact is getting heavier. His steering is fine and he can do lovely up/down transitions between gaits now when relaxed and focused - not so when I first got him. I can get him connected and forward then use my seat for up/down transitions to w/t. Sometimes his upward canter transitions can be huge as he steps under himself - that is when he really wants to go big and forward. (Here is when I get in trouble to not contain the huge canter. ElaPe - you described this exactly correct too what I feel. So I then go back and ask for less expressive canter depart to relax. He has made huge progress and I am certainly learning tons from him because he is NOT easy.

ElaPe wrote:
myleetlepony wrote:[quote="ElaPe"}

As I understand, this horse is indeed forward ("Think of those German sale videos where they have the young horses canter up and down the long side - that is how he goes - very eager and strong"), but the rider feels it too much forward and as a result of this forwardness and overeagerness the rider feels the horse is strong and heavy in hands.

With such a horse I would work in canter in very short periods of time, doing lots of trot transitions. Kind of get him little bored with that. I'd also do many walk breakes so that he relaxes.

At the same time one should be careful not to kill forwardness in a horse.
(This is exactly what happens in our huge canter departs.)


The canter was really improving under my trainer this summer until she became unavailable - so I slid backwards in our progress working alone. But this is what learning is all about - making mistakes and moving on. Reading the training forum here and your feedback gets me back on track. I did reach out to my trainer and she is going to try to give me at least one day a week. Hopefully I can get some more rides in before the ground freezes solid. No indoor as my guys are at home but I do have some trails on the property to take a break from the ring.

I really appreciate your feedback for training/riding experience. We also have suspected he may have been ridden in a double bridle - again rushed training with canter changes. He is very athletic type and not a flat hunter type mover - small horse with huge movement. This guy anticipates so I find keeping him guessing and mentally busy helps with his focus on the rider.

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Re: Suggestions for an over eager forward horse.

Postby ElaPe » Mon Nov 07, 2016 1:52 pm

Josette: I think you should continue your work like you do. Big canter depart means that he is really stepping under which is good. You shouldn't be fearing or be scared of that. The horse is not going to run off with you or anything.

It would be helpful to see you in a video.

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Re: Suggestions for an over eager forward horse.

Postby Josette » Mon Nov 07, 2016 2:01 pm

I have no fear of him running away - he is under control. I just would like him to not get so heavy - leaning on my hands. He just loves to go - ears up and very cooperative then a bit of cool weather too. I like your idea of more transitions when they get him to relax and not anticipate the next one. :)

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Re: Suggestions for an over eager forward horse.

Postby ElaPe » Mon Nov 07, 2016 2:16 pm

That is in fact 90% of success that you do not fear his big canter departs or that he loves to go. (so many people around are just scared of their own horses and cripple them with either overusing gadgets or just simply with hand riding).

May be this would be helpful

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vT2kQMAngac

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Re: Suggestions for an over eager forward horse.

Postby Kyra's Mom » Mon Nov 07, 2016 4:32 pm

I like ElaPe's suggestion. short canters and lots of transitions doesn't let him build up the heaviness and momentum. Makes sure his trot is a good tempo with no rushing and he is light in the hand. I wouldn't canter him more than 10-15 meters in a straight line. Use lots of circles. Put a circle in every corner of the arena and at E and B. Anytime he feels like he is bearing down, back to trot. As he gets better you can start testing him with longer distances of straight line canter always putting in a circle or trot transition as soon as he starts to get heavy in the hand. Of course lots of walk breaks to get the relaxation back. I have to do this a lot with my eager beaver. It doesn't take a lot of walk usually, just enough for her brain to wind down.

Another thing you might try is to teach him canter from the walk (if he doesn't do it now) and see if he is a little more "packaged" from the first stride. I feel it is an easier transition and more controlled than trot to canter.

Good luck, he sounds like a fun horse.

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Re: Suggestions for an over eager forward horse.

Postby Josette » Mon Nov 07, 2016 4:52 pm

Thank you both - great replies! Yes - you described exactly what I'm dealing with here. Interesting video as that is how he was trained IMO and needs to lift and carry himself. I love when I get that surge forward response and am not fearful when he is up/light in my hands. He can be FUN when he is really carrying himself and so easy to sit. We need to get it consistent. He does nice responsive W/C departs but sometimes really big when he steps under and lifts his front. I have to make sure I don't get left behind. :oops:

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Re: Suggestions for an over eager forward horse.

Postby musical comedy » Mon Nov 07, 2016 5:36 pm

I don't have experience with that kind of horse. Whether I'm lucky or unlucky, I don't know.

I do have a personal comment though. I don't care for those european sale videos where they have the horse literally galloping down the long side and trotting in extension. All that tells me is that the horse has scope. Usually those are videos of young horses so you can see their potential.

Of course an eagerly forward dressage horse is a good thing. However, if the canter is too strong that you can't make a 10 meter circle or do a half pass, what good is it? Same goes for those long stride trots. If you (g you) can do the figures/exercises at your training level, then you are problem not going too strong in gait.

I susbscribe to the ODG theory that a horse needs to be 'driveable'. That is not the same a needing to push him to go, but he should not be driving you. jmo

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Re: Suggestions for an over eager forward horse.

Postby piedmontfields » Mon Nov 07, 2016 6:02 pm

I have ridden a number of horses like this. Often they need a strong leg/seat ride with a quiet, soft hand to help them realize the possibilities. I have found that "dropping" them when they try to prop on my hands can be helpful (back-up with your seat/leg).

Besides the good suggestions already posted about circles and transitions you might also do some in hand, then slower under saddle work to educate him about responses to the bit. This can eventually translate to being able to make reminders about releasing the bit at canter!

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Re: Suggestions for an over eager forward horse.

Postby Ponichiwa » Mon Nov 07, 2016 6:11 pm

I had a trainer tell me "The more it feels like you need your hands, the more you need to be using your core." Hasn't led me wrong yet.

In this case that may mean big half-halts with your seat in the canter to bounce him up off the ground and convert some of that forwards energy upwards. Similar to the first step of your canter transition. Always cruising around in shoulder-fore can help with that conversion.

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Re: Suggestions for an over eager forward horse.

Postby ElaPe » Tue Nov 08, 2016 2:06 am

I tried to find more yt videos re. training a too forward going horse. It turns out there are plenty of videos on how to work with a sluggish/lazy horse so he is more forward going then the other way around.

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Re: Suggestions for an over eager forward horse.

Postby Josette » Thu Nov 10, 2016 11:23 pm

I just wanted to give you ALL an update after I've had 2 rides trying your recommendations. So far, excellent response to get him to balance and not lean on my hands. Mylettlepony - I did exactly what you described in your first post and you got it right. ElaPe - your video link was very helpful lifting him up when he started to hang down / get heavy. I paid close attention to quality trot and suppleness - listening to aides before we did any canter. I realized I had allowed him to get heavy in trotting down the long sides as I was so focused on rhythm and speed. So as recommended I added more 15 meter circles at corners and serpentines during our trot work to keep changing his balance not to hang and keep him engaged mentally. You all gave me great thinking tools to use during these sessions. He was quite relaxed during our ring work while being forward and responsive. We were able to do nice 20 meter canter in both directions and the heavier side was much improved. Yes - balance issue meant he would hang more going to the left. So we had 2 fun very positive rides! Thank you ALL so much for these great training techniques. :)

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Re: Suggestions for an over eager forward horse.

Postby myleetlepony » Fri Nov 11, 2016 12:23 am

:D Great to hear! Thanks for the update!

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Re: Suggestions for an over eager forward horse.

Postby texsuze » Fri Nov 11, 2016 4:07 am

And don't forget to let him know when he gets it right; a 'good job!' here, a little pat there, when you can work them in. I used to be so delighted in those 'got it!' moments that I'd sometimes forget to give my guy some feedback ;)

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Re: Suggestions for an over eager forward horse.

Postby Josette » Fri Nov 11, 2016 12:15 pm

texsuze - Yes - you are so right! I see his ears as he listens and big pat at the end - short walk through the trails - then apple while removing tack. Horses need to be rewarded for good work.

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Re: Suggestions for an over eager forward horse.

Postby kande50 » Fri Nov 11, 2016 4:07 pm

Josette wrote:texsuze - Yes - you are so right! I see his ears as he listens and big pat at the end - short walk through the trails - then apple while removing tack. Horses need to be rewarded for good work.


IMO, rewards are all good, but releases (partial releases, lightening the pressure) are the most convenient and useful rewards for ridden work.

I think because of the emphasis on a steady contact in dressage there are a lot more misunderstandings about how much pressure, and when and how much to lighten up. And because horses don't complain in ways that are always obvious to humans, it's easy to think that they're fine with the way they're ridden even when they've become anxious and upset because they're feeling like they feel like they're in trouble and there's no escape.

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Re: Suggestions for an over eager forward horse.

Postby ElaPe » Fri Nov 11, 2016 11:39 pm

ElaPe - your video link was very helpful lifting him up when he started to hang down / get heavy.


Generally I find Catherine Haddad's videos very helpful. I think she is very good at explaining things and also showing them in her riding in those videos.


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