How to handle seller who is not the breeder who wants to sell to competition home only

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Tsavo
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How to handle seller who is not the breeder who wants to sell to competition home only

Postby Tsavo » Sat Nov 26, 2016 2:14 am

I will put this here but if it belongs in the horses for sale section, please more the post.

I will be looking for a horse in about 2-3 years when I retire my present horse. I have been monitoring the FB dressage horses for sale group. Occasionally, there is an owner who says "competition home only" or something like that. They are not the breeder.

Really? They are going to turn down their asking price just because the buyer won't compete although the buyer can clearly ride both sides of the horse?

Really someone is out there turning down cash asking price for this reason?

I think in this case it is morally permissible to lie to this type of seller.

Your thoughts?

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Re: How to handle seller who is not the breeder who wants to sell to competition home only

Postby Moutaineer » Sat Nov 26, 2016 5:09 am

Move on and buy a different horse from someone who actually wants to sell it to you for your purposes?

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Re: How to handle seller who is not the breeder who wants to sell to competition home only

Postby khall » Sat Nov 26, 2016 1:54 pm

Sellers who say show home only usually have a breeding program they are trying to market. I can understand them breeding and raising nice sport horses and wanting them to be shown to help get their farm and program out there.

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Re: How to handle seller who is not the breeder who wants to sell to competition home only

Postby capstone » Sat Nov 26, 2016 2:49 pm

But OP specifically cited a scenario where the seller is not the breeder.

Either way, I agree with Moutaineer.

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Re: How to handle seller who is not the breeder who wants to sell to competition home only

Postby StraightForward » Sat Nov 26, 2016 5:09 pm

If it says competition home only, move on. I've usually seen breeder ads that say something like consideration to a show home, which seems to mean a discount ted price. If the wording isn't hard and fast, just be up front and see how they react. There are plenty of horses for sale out there.
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Re: How to handle seller who is not the breeder who wants to sell to competition home only

Postby Tsavo » Sat Nov 26, 2016 5:18 pm

Thanks for these responses.

Again, the seller is not the breeder for those who missed that point.

If I came across an ad that said discount to a show home, I would say I would show to get the discount because there is ZERO chance any seller would follow up on that in any way.

I think sellers who are not breeders who want anything more than a good, preferably forever, home overstep and ultimately are being unrealistic.

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Re: How to handle seller who is not the breeder who wants to sell to competition home only

Postby Moutaineer » Sat Nov 26, 2016 11:04 pm

It's code for this horse needs to be in a trainer program in a show or training barn, won't do well in an unstructured environment. Tell them you are a serious rider who isn't going to keep it in your backyard behind a Strand of saggy barb wire and you'll probably be OK.

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Re: How to handle seller who is not the breeder who wants to sell to competition home only

Postby angela9823 » Sat Nov 26, 2016 11:30 pm

It could also be code for someone not wanting their horse to end up being an unpampered pasture ornament. Doesn't have to be a breeder but just someone wanting to make certain their horse is living the life that person believes to be the best - where someone is riding and really caring for the animal. I'm only saying this because I was that type of person in my previous life. I just wanted to know the horse was going to be cared for and that was what I THOUGHT to be the most caring home.

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Re: How to handle seller who is not the breeder who wants to sell to competition home only

Postby orono » Sat Nov 26, 2016 11:58 pm

Agree with the 2 above posts, they are often looking for a certain level of care, riding trainer involvement vs time in the show ring.

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Re: How to handle seller who is not the breeder who wants to sell to competition home only

Postby Tsavo » Sun Nov 27, 2016 1:18 am

Thanks for those additional responses.

First of all I am talking show quality horses with lots of training. So five figures. That means I am not looking for a pasture ornament.

If I wanted a great home for my horse I would specifically not be looking for a show home. I think showing is for the riders. Horses don't dig getting on trailers and going to strange places and doing tests. Therefore it is not credible to me that wanting a show home is code for wanting good care.

I train with a few people and would stay in training with any new horse. That and being able to ride the horse correctly. Not sure why that shouldn't be enough which is why I view much more from the seller as an unrealistic over-reach.

Has anyone ever heard about a seller who wants a show home refusing a sale at asking price to a serious amateur who doesn't intend to show? Maybe it has never happened and this is all moot. I suspect so.

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Re: How to handle seller who is not the breeder who wants to sell to competition home only

Postby Chisamba » Sun Nov 27, 2016 1:43 am

No never. I've never heard of a seller turning down asking price of a well priced horse. Only.lower priced where the quality of care can be questioned.

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Re: How to handle seller who is not the breeder who wants to sell to competition home only

Postby Tsavo » Sun Nov 27, 2016 1:51 am

Chisamba wrote:No never. I've never heard of a seller turning down asking price of a well priced horse. Only.lower priced where the quality of care can be questioned.


Thanks. If it sounds crazy it probably isn't true. And this is crazy as hell. I should have realized that earlier. I guess I was just surprised when I read the ad.

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Re: How to handle seller who is not the breeder who wants to sell to competition home only

Postby goneriding » Sun Dec 04, 2016 3:13 am

I think it is up to the seller to set whatever criteria they wish on the sale of their horse.

And there are enough horses for sale that why would you need to lie to buy one?

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Re: How to handle seller who is not the breeder who wants to sell to competition home only

Postby Bats79 » Sun Dec 04, 2016 12:08 pm

Moutaineer wrote:It's code for this horse needs to be in a trainer program in a show or training barn, won't do well in an unstructured environment. Tell them you are a serious rider who isn't going to keep it in your backyard behind a Strand of saggy barb wire and you'll probably be OK.



And it can actually mean exactly what it says. I for one love selling my horses into low pressure environments and seeing them happy as part of a family. BUT I do need some people who will take horses out and promote them in competition. For this reason I would try to find a competition home for the best of my horses even if I did need to discount the price. I might have to reject selling one of these horses to someone who didn't want to show the horse because in the long run I would do better having the horse out and about so as to promote other horses.

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Re: How to handle seller who is not the breeder who wants to sell to competition home only

Postby capstone » Sun Dec 04, 2016 1:18 pm

Bats79 wrote:
Moutaineer wrote:It's code for this horse needs to be in a trainer program in a show or training barn, won't do well in an unstructured environment. Tell them you are a serious rider who isn't going to keep it in your backyard behind a Strand of saggy barb wire and you'll probably be OK.



And it can actually mean exactly what it says. I for one love selling my horses into low pressure environments and seeing them happy as part of a family. BUT I do need some people who will take horses out and promote them in competition. For this reason I would try to find a competition home for the best of my horses even if I did need to discount the price. I might have to reject selling one of these horses to someone who didn't want to show the horse because in the long run I would do better having the horse out and about so as to promote other horses.

You're a breeder?

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Re: How to handle seller who is not the breeder who wants to sell to competition home only

Postby Chisamba » Sun Dec 04, 2016 1:37 pm

I think the point Tsavo is trying to make is that the non breeder has no need to have its horse promoted, unless perhaps they are a broker, and wish to have their brokerage advertised but i am not sure how a broker, or a seller who is not the breeder can even have their name continue to be associated with a sold horse.

The breeding and breeder, yes, but how would anyone else be promoted by the showing of a horse they sold? I am genuinely curious.

as for the " must go to a show home" even that is an unlikely caveat.

My father sold my show pony to a show home, he really needed the money and it was to all intents and purposes a great offer. The horse would promote our breeding program, have a chushy life, etc. He basically disappeared. three years later i was out on my own, starting as a fledgling trainer and instructor, and was looking for a pony for a friend. I went to a broker and as i was standing talking a horse in a closed stall near me was banging and banging at the wall and started whinnying dramatically. I asked who was making the noise and was told it was a rogue pony with a faked show record that was unmanageable that had been brought in for sale. I opened the door and there was my Chisaab. He had heard my voice, and started making a racket to be noticed. I was so relieved to be able to negotiated to buy him at a very low price.

Anyway, i was so relieved to have been able to rescue poor Chisaab from his circumstances, he was accustomed to plenty of work and turn out, and had been put in a stall 24/7 and ridden once a week, by a pretty but ineffective spoiled brat, and that was that.

I also know of Barn Owner who buys expensive packers, teaches them to buck, and then sends them to the abattoir, because its too risky to sell a dangerous horse.

anyway, my point is that selling to a " show home" is not guarantee that the horse will have a good life, a decent trainer, or good promotion. One hopes to find the right person for each horse, but humans can suck at times.

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Re: How to handle seller who is not the breeder who wants to sell to competition home only

Postby exvet » Sun Dec 04, 2016 2:04 pm

I am no longer breeding. I sold my last broodmare exactly a year ago. My daughter now legally owns 'my' stallion. HOWEVER, I do intend to campaign the one offspring of his that I chose to keep. I'm 53 and already had to change jobs due to physical limitations which someday will affect my riding. If so, I WILL SELL to a competition home ONLY. While I am no longer breeding my daughter plans to stand, now, her stallion to the public starting this coming breeding season. It will be very important that those of interest are able to see what he can produce and what they're able to do. I still have a VERY STRONG interest in promoting MY breed. I put far too much blood, sweat and tears to not support her efforts, not to mention that the bloodlines we have are completely gone without him.

For years, I acquired, backed/started/trained and campaigned stock of two other breeders. I ALWAYS showed and advertised the horses under the breeder's prefix. I was not standing a stallion at that time. I sold those welsh cobs and their crosses to homes that were going to CONTINUE to compete them because that was my sole purpose - to promote the breed and their respective breeding programs. I BELIEVED in their breeding programs far more than some others. It is EXACTLY how I acquired so many for little to no money. The pay-offs were huge [in a relative & figurative sense more than literal - though both breeders made far more money off of what I did than they would have otherwise].

I've given two types of scenarios that support 'why' a non-breeder (or no-longer breeder) would sell to a competition home only. BTW I NEVER wrote my ads for people to have to decode. I was taking as much of a gamble on them as they were on me/what I was selling. I tried to be very open and honest and most importantly if I didn't think 'you' could handle the animal, well then, I had no trouble telling 'you' to move on and that the horse was better suited to someone else (or some other situation). So as to 'how' to handle this situation - be honest and if you don't intend to show the horse then don't buy the horse that is for sale with that hope/purpose.

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Re: How to handle seller who is not the breeder who wants to sell to competition home only

Postby Tsavo » Sun Dec 04, 2016 8:26 pm

goneriding wrote:And there are enough horses for sale that why would you need to lie to buy one?


Because I disagree that "there are enough" horses in a particular age range, training range, price range, location radius, etc. It took months to find my present horse while looking full time with my trainer. So there weren't "enough" then and there doesn't seem to be "enough" now.

I know several people who looked for very long times for a horse. Where do you live (general area) if I might ask? Wellington?

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Re: How to handle seller who is not the breeder who wants to sell to competition home only

Postby goneriding » Mon Dec 05, 2016 1:02 am

Tsavo wrote:
goneriding wrote:And there are enough horses for sale that why would you need to lie to buy one?


Because I disagree that "there are enough" horses in a particular age range, training range, price range, location radius, etc. It took months to find my present horse while looking full time with my trainer. So there weren't "enough" then and there doesn't seem to be "enough" now.

I know several people who looked for very long times for a horse. Where do you live (general area) if I might ask? Wellington?


haha no, Washington state, hardly a hotbed. I have such a distrust of horse sellers in general (notwithstanding there are certainly good ones) because so often they will say anything to sell a horse. Why be a buyer who will say anything to buy a horse? Seems to me it just perpetuates the problem. If I am selling my horse with a proviso, I'd appreciate my buyer being honest about that. I have my own concerns for my horse's future and best interests. And I really hate being lied to. If they really want the horse to go to a show home, for whatever reason, sounds like that's not you. Just be honest and explain why you don't show but can offer a great home.

So if your question is "Is it ok to lie," I'm not going to be the one to say "yes".

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Re: How to handle seller who is not the breeder who wants to sell to competition home only

Postby Chisamba » Mon Dec 05, 2016 3:39 am

Breed promotion is a fair reason I had not considered. In the other scenario you are still promoting for the breeder and under the breeders umbrella.

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Re: How to handle seller who is not the breeder who wants to sell to competition home only

Postby exvet » Mon Dec 05, 2016 3:53 am

Yes of course I'm promoting for the breeder and under the breeder's umbrella; but to many who answered my ads, I was just an amateur rider flipping horses.

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Re: How to handle seller who is not the breeder who wants to sell to competition home only

Postby capstone » Mon Dec 05, 2016 6:52 am

Tsavo wrote:If I came across an ad that said discount to a show home, I would say I would show to get the discount because there is ZERO chance any seller would follow up on that in any way.

This is not true, with centerlinescores.com. If they mean rated shows, which I assume they do.

Maybe I'm just a nosy sort but I look up people and horses on that site all the time.

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Re: How to handle seller who is not the breeder who wants to sell to competition home only

Postby Bats79 » Mon Dec 05, 2016 12:31 pm

capstone wrote:
Bats79 wrote:
Moutaineer wrote:It's code for this horse needs to be in a trainer program in a show or training barn, won't do well in an unstructured environment. Tell them you are a serious rider who isn't going to keep it in your backyard behind a Strand of saggy barb wire and you'll probably be OK.



And it can actually mean exactly what it says. I for one love selling my horses into low pressure environments and seeing them happy as part of a family. BUT I do need some people who will take horses out and promote them in competition. For this reason I would try to find a competition home for the best of my horses even if I did need to discount the price. I might have to reject selling one of these horses to someone who didn't want to show the horse because in the long run I would do better having the horse out and about so as to promote other horses.

You're a breeder?



Yes. And a trainer, rider and coach.

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Re: How to handle seller who is not the breeder who wants to sell to competition home only

Postby Tsavo » Mon Dec 05, 2016 12:45 pm

capstone wrote:
Tsavo wrote:If I came across an ad that said discount to a show home, I would say I would show to get the discount because there is ZERO chance any seller would follow up on that in any way.

This is not true, with centerlinescores.com. If they mean rated shows, which I assume they do.

Maybe I'm just a nosy sort but I look up people and horses on that site all the time.


That's a good point. But I could hint I wanted to start showing given the type of horse I will be buying. Totally plausible. But again, I am not sure any non-breeder is going to turn down the money if I was at least wishy-washy on the point. I really think it is moot.

I view lying about whether I will be showing a horse bought from a non-breeder as lying that you are hiding Jews from the Nazis. It is not morally wrong since showing is for the riders' interests only.

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Re: How to handle seller who is not the breeder who wants to sell to competition home only

Postby kande50 » Mon Dec 05, 2016 4:47 pm

Tsavo wrote:I view lying about whether I will be showing a horse bought from a non-breeder as lying that you are hiding Jews from the Nazis. It is not morally wrong since showing is for the riders' interests only.


Not quite, because in this case lying about having no plans to show the horse would not be for the purpose of accomplishing a greater good, but would simply be lying to benefit yourself. There might be some benefit for the horse because his life might be better if he didn't have to compete (depending on what his job would be compared to what he'd have to do if he was shown), but it doesn't sound as if the primary purpose of lying would be to benefit the horse?

OTOH, if you really want the horse just tell them that you can't predict the future so are not willing to make any promises, and make an offer.

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Re: How to handle seller who is not the breeder who wants to sell to competition home only

Postby piedmontfields » Mon Dec 05, 2016 5:27 pm

Tsavo wrote: Because I disagree that "there are enough" horses in a particular age range, training range, price range, location radius, etc. It took months to find my present horse while looking full time with my trainer. So there weren't "enough" then and there doesn't seem to be "enough" now.


I agree that it can take quite a lot of time to find a specific type of horse. However, I also agree that there are a lot of horses out there. You may need to expand your radius, especially if your POV doesn't agree with the local person with stock you like! It really doesn't add that much to the cost of a high quality horse to include your travel (and even your trainer's travel, if you need that as opposed to just sharing video and discussing) and shipping.

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Re: How to handle seller who is not the breeder who wants to sell to competition home only

Postby ElaPe » Thu Dec 08, 2016 1:53 pm

What if the buyer says "yes of course I do want to show the horse", he/she buys the horse and then does not show the horse. What is the seller going to do then?

(The reasons of not showing can be plenty, and not necessarily a planned lie)

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Re: How to handle seller who is not the breeder who wants to sell to competition home only

Postby Bats79 » Thu Dec 08, 2016 2:20 pm

kande50 wrote:
Tsavo wrote:I view lying about whether I will be showing a horse bought from a non-breeder as lying that you are hiding Jews from the Nazis. It is not morally wrong since showing is for the riders' interests only.


Not quite, because in this case lying about having no plans to show the horse would not be for the purpose of accomplishing a greater good, but would simply be lying to benefit yourself. There might be some benefit for the horse because his life might be better if he didn't have to compete (depending on what his job would be compared to what he'd have to do if he was shown), but it doesn't sound as if the primary purpose of lying would be to benefit the horse?

OTOH, if you really want the horse just tell them that you can't predict the future so are not willing to make any promises, and make an offer.



Best idea yet. Tell them what your plan is and make your offer. The seller will decide if it suits their plans.


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