Goals and Progress - December

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greenholmeshandy
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Re: Goals and Progress - December

Postby greenholmeshandy » Sat Dec 31, 2016 12:20 am

formerly UDBB user known as Brychensmum

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Chisamba
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Re: Goals and Progress - December

Postby Chisamba » Sat Dec 31, 2016 12:27 am



definitely :)

piedmontfields
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Re: Goals and Progress - December

Postby piedmontfields » Sat Dec 31, 2016 1:39 am

Woohoo GHH! I would like you to acknowledge that your butt is glued to the saddle as you do your left lead canter work. Well done.

In our end of year update, I am super happy at our new farm. Emi is even finding the gallop gear out in the fields!!! This is a big deal for us as I was not sure sure she would even have accepted gallop as a genuine option in the past. I also also enjoying the mirrors and nice footing in the arena at the new place. In general, Emi is feeling full of it and loose, which is awesome in December when the cold can bring us down. I feel determined to make flying changes no big deal in the future. Her half passes are actually very 3rd level decent these days. Whoodathunkit :D

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Re: Goals and Progress - December

Postby HafDressage » Sat Dec 31, 2016 8:04 am

Dresseur wrote:
I'm also saying that I think that it's better to teach the aid from the hip - because if it comes from the leg - you run the risk of getting swinging changes. At this point, the horse should have applied meanings to inside leg or outside leg because the horse should be doing the lateral work where outside leg back could be haunches in, it could be asking for a working piri, or a piri, or as part of half pass aids - so, if you put your outside leg back to ask for the change, instead of asking by switching your hip, why would the horse NOT move it's haunches over and start getting swinging changes. I just think that with where I'm at now, and with going through the contortions that MY body wants to take when asking for changes and what happens to the changes and even the baseline canter quality when I do those contortions, that it seems to me that it's most clear for the horse to ask for the change with the hip, and not with the legs.


I would say that most classical trainers would disagree with you about trying to teach changes from a hip aid. And I'm not saying this to be like oh I know it all or to imply you don't, because clearly you are a good rider with a good background. I'm simply saying I think that this is sort of a more modern interpretation or sentiment than what is classically taught. I think reference to a shift in seat weight or hip position is typically made in context with the classical leg aids. Do you simply put your hip forward and expect canter? More likely I think most of us use a combination of inside leg on, outside leg back signalling, but passive, inside seat-bone typically holding slightly more weight and/or slightly more forward. So, why would the flying change aid be different from your canter aid?

Here is a good article where 2 of the 3 trainers provide direct reference to the aids.
http://dressagetoday.com/article/fearless-flying-16089

From Steffan (but can be found in many places): "Keep the aids simple. Use the same aids as you would going from walk to canter: inside leg on the girth, outside leg behind. Your inside leg produces the canter or, in this case, the change of lead. Your outside leg initiates the change and keeps your horse straight. Your outside leg should not be too far back. If it is, you may have problems later with tempi changes because you won’t have enough time to give the aid. The outside rein keeps the connection so that your horse doesn’t become flat or unbalanced as he makes the effort. At the same time, the inside seat bone creates the bend."

To address the other questions about "so, if you put your outside leg back to ask for the change, instead of asking by switching your hip, why would the horse NOT move it's haunches over and start getting swinging changes."

I would tell you it's a matter of pressure and coordination of the aids. In shoulder in your outside leg is ALSO behind the girth, but you get shoulder in bc the inside leg is stronger, the outside leg passive, and the outside rein is maintaining the position. If you are cantering and your outside leg is slightly behind the girth as it should be, the reason you don't have haunches in all the time is because the outside leg is slightly back, but passively back. So in the changes, the leg should go back (but not by a ton, just a enough to give the aid) and not adding pressure. It's a signal, not a push.

As for doing it from the hip only, I would say that this will result in a lot of scooting around in the saddle, which is not ideal. I've never seen a text or had a teacher tell me that i should teach changes off hip aids. The only time I've ever heard it referenced is when I've heard people say things like "he so sensitive I can simply change from moving my hip." So, to me this is something that might happen with super confirmed advanced horses as they become super in tune with the aids, but would not necessarily be the ideal or something that I would want to teach alone.

So, just some more food for thought. Later maybe we should debate how I'm introducing piros with my boy because I've gotten a lot of mixed info on that and I feel totally confused about the best path forward on that one. :)

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Re: Goals and Progress - December

Postby Imperini » Sat Dec 31, 2016 3:21 pm

The flying change discussion has been really interesting though I can't really add anything of value.

I mostly just spent the month getting to know my girl. I did find that she takes a fair bit of time to warm up and it's best done with some not quite stretchy, but a little longer and lower than we eventually end up. If I give her that good stretchy warm up then I get some really nice work until she gets tired and starts trying to curl. We did work on the counter canter a bit as I intended but realistically I think I'm going to need extra help with more than just the shallow loops (which we have worked and improved upon throughout the month). I am happy with the progress we made and also that she does pick up the correct canter lead based on the aid rather than just picking up the lead for the direction we're going. I think once I am able to get some regular lessons we can work toward more but I'm not going to push it until then. She also had four days off while I was gone for the holiday and when I went out to the barn she speed walked to the gate to greet me when she saw me which made me happy and then we had an awesome ride.

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Re: Goals and Progress - December

Postby Ponichiwa » Sat Dec 31, 2016 3:48 pm

I also ask for changes (and for canter transitions from any other gait) mainly from the inside hip, which doesn't move much in the saddle but becomes the dominant weight-bearing hip when asking for canter/changes. Yes, the inside leg is there to encourage the jump from the inside leg, but I use minimal outside leg as I have found that haunches-in is usually already in the canter so you don't need much encouragement in that direction. You'll get the same reaction from your hip by moving the leg, assuming you stay centered and upright on top of your hips. I try to get away with the minimum aid that gets a consistent reaction-- I had to use a lot more leg on my old-old-old-style Hanoverian gelding back in the day, but Kiwi is spicy and a big aid gets a disproportionately big reaction.

Kiwi and I are closing out 2016 with a bit of a squelch-- the rain has been alternating between heavy and misty for about 18 hours. Just as well; Kiwi deserves a day off. At the beginning of this month, I'd said I would:
Ponichiwa wrote:Here are my goals:
- As always, salads. Soups are an acceptable substitute if brothy enough. Seriously, I want to lose 5 lb this month and to fit in my dream boots that I haven't ordered yet.
- 15000 steps/day.
- Ride 5x/week.

What I'll be working on with Kiwi:
- Suppleness, especially on the left side. This always disappears after she's had some time off, so we'll just regain that ground we'd lost due to work travel.
- Back to the changes. They are occasionally, uh, creative. I'd like to get us to reliable series of changes (if not tempis) by January.
- Cadence in the trot. The tempo is consistent, the energy is consistent, but without the suppleness (see bullet 1) the cadence is lacking. So once we get more reliably in both reins and pushing off both hind legs, then I'll see if we can add some cadence and expression.


Soups/salads were easy until the holidays hit. I'm afraid to step on the scale. In progress news, I have started going to biweekly yoga classes, and am feeling sore in muscles I didn't know I had. And I'm at a 90% success rate getting 15000 steps/day or more. Kiwi and I have been pushing 6x/week thanks to 2 weeks of vacation.

Kiwi is much stronger than she was at the beginning of the month. The suppleness, especially to the left, is vastly improved. I toyed with adding expression (and strength) to the trot by reintroducing half steps, which went surprisingly well. She over-collected and got confused and ended in a levade-ish thing, but rather than exploding out of it in a fit of pony rage, she walked out of it and ended up with some lovely half-step efforts 20m later. Folks, the pony is getting downright RIDEABLE.

In the canter, I played with my favorite strength- and suppleness-building exercise: counter canter in shoulder-in (relative to the direction of travel, not canter lead). As a result, the changes are now back to reliable and are expressive. Sometimes too much so. We had maximum 3 changes along the long side, but they're not polished enough to turn into tempis. So that one tacks on to next month.

HafDressage, Kiwi and I are getting back into the canter pirouettes again. We can chat. I think there's an older thread on the pirouettes somewhere here, so I'll dredge it up.

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Re: Goals and Progress - December

Postby khall » Sat Dec 31, 2016 7:12 pm

Interesting on the changes discussion. I ask for canter with my inside hip down and forward, always have. I do have my inside leg at the girth and outside leg slightly behind the girth, but ask with the movement of my hip, very very slight movement. My OTTB g was a horse so sensitive you could get changes with just a movement of the hip. In fact he taught me to be very correct and quiet in my seat during CC or he would flip a change. Quite lovely to ride such a sensitive horse! My big guy now is not that sensitive unfortunately. Though I have taught him to be more so with training. Again his canter depart now is legs appropriate and then inside hip for canter depart. Changes we will see how sensitive he will be (not thinking he will start out that sensitive but hoping with training he will be more so).

Interesting about canter piri, in working with the canter yesterday I was feeling the canter piri in my canter work especially to the right. He is getting so much stronger and collected in his canter these days, very happy with progress for the most part.

In other news, he is having issues again with upper respiratory ulcerative lesions for some reason:( No idea why, so far he is the only one but it is making riding him difficult with the snorting he does. Once he warms up it is better, but initial work is not fun. Had gotten the all clear last Aug and then Oct he started up again. Suspect TSC alfalfa compressed bales irritated him, hoping not the pythium again. Ugh More vet bills on top of the $1600 from my mare's colic/euthanization:( Scopes and treating with serum, starting to heal but will take time. Scratching our head on this one, so weird.

I am still struggling with getting in the groove to work horses regularly. My mare's loss has really put me in the dumps, that plus the holidays and all the hubbub of them means that not as much work has been done with my horses. The older mare has just been sitting and my younger mare Gaila has been hit and miss. Last time I rode her was just bareback fun.

One big plus is a couple of friends and I have signed up for the classical riding vacation by Equitour in Spain for late May! A whole week riding Andalusions and having fun. Trip to Jerez to see the riding school. We are so excited, has been on my bucket list for 10 yrs.

Happy New Year to All! Have a safe and wonderful transition to 2017.

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Re: Goals and Progress - December

Postby Dresseur » Sat Dec 31, 2016 9:09 pm

HafDressage, I disagree a bit - many of the books from the ODG talk about changing from the hip, or back. It's a very classical way to ask for changes. Maybe I was a bit misleading, I don't do nothing with my leg, but my leg is not the initiator of the change, nor is it the initiator of the canter strike off. I change my hip, and therefore my legs follow suit. So yes, I have my inside leg at the girth, outside leg slightly back - but it is as a function of the placement of my pelvis, I don't have my pelvis dead straight and I moved my legs. So, yes, to ask for the canter, I put my inside hip forward (which automatically puts my outside leg back a bit). Because the canter is on the bias and not straight like the trot, the pelvis will lead a bit with one side - then when you ask for the change, you push the other side forward, which in turns switches your legs. Which is why I'm saying that sometimes the swing in the leg is the reciprocal action of the hip, not because your pelvis is straight ahead and you swing your legs and push or give spur or whatever else for the change. You can see this in Ahlerich and Klimke's tempis or in the SRS work. Again, your own description and the descriptions in the links discuss moving the outside leg back - the leg is attached to the hip joint, so really, IMO you are moving the hip. I just make THAT the primary aid, as opposed to the leg or spur.

So, in regards to the canter strike off, I do as Khall and Ponichiwa do - I push my inside hip forward, which moves my legs into position and then push a bit forward with my back. If I need my legs as backup, it's both legs for forward, but I want the horse to follow my back, leg aids are a back up to ask for more activity or to place the haunches somewhere. There is very, very little movement in the changes or in the strike-off. It's a very slight movement of the hip. The other thing is that this is assuming that the horse has been taught to canter with this aid. But, no scooting or gyrations with this method

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Re: Goals and Progress - December

Postby piedmontfields » Sat Dec 31, 2016 10:10 pm

I'm not sure that I really accomplished much in December, but I did ride 4-5 times per week and did mostly get my horse settled at a new barn.

Today it struck me that 1. We are working pretty well, even in the cold damp of winter. This was a tough day for me but the little mare was game after a forgiving warm-up. 2. Emi now lets me do lots of things in canter that she used to not be able to tolerate or have the strength for, including changes of bend, position, spirals, counter canter anywhere anytime, canter-walks and canter-halt in balance, canter-trots with power. So things are improving. I just want us to get consistent with changes by spring (as in she'll do them properly even when the world isn't perfect and I'm not perfect).

We played with going in and out of half steps some today, too, and that is tons easier and is low stress. I am appreciating having good mirrors at the new barn.

Ponichiwa wrote:Iadence and expression.

In the canter, I played with my favorite strength- and suppleness-building exercise: counter canter in shoulder-in (relative to the direction of travel, not canter lead). [/quote]

That would a good exercise for us, too. Thanks.

Now that most of the eventer crew is off to Florida for the season, I need to set up some cavaletti for us in the lovely arena to help our on-going trot improvement project! She honestly has a better trot than a year ago---it just still isn't a proper medium trot on demand!

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Chisamba
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Re: Goals and Progress - December

Postby Chisamba » Sat Dec 31, 2016 10:46 pm

So my last ride in 2016 was in a tiny saddle ( size 16) and stirrups that i just put my tip toes through. I wasbteaching a lesson where i had 4 poles set in a square around x. I was asking my students to ride a clover leaf. They did ok at trot but when i asked them to canter, trotting in the square each time, they fell apart. So i asked which horse did it worst. All voted for Hero. So i got my hat and gloves. Lengthened the stirrups, and in said tiny saddle and little stirrups, demonstrated.

It was helpful because they discussed why it looked easier when I did it. ( slower, more uphill more balance accurate transitions) and then they each had another attempt. Happily they all improved sufficiently to feel accomplished.

Happy new year all!!

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Re: Goals and Progress - December

Postby Flight » Sat Dec 31, 2016 11:20 pm

Interesting FC discussion. When I started with my current instructor, he taught me to get a canter trans from a touch with the outside leg back. In the prep/setup inside hip is forward, but the actual aid is a touch only, no pushing, with the outside leg. He said that is for the flying changes later. I have to say teaching the horses from that single touch makes the strike off quite crisp and very easy for the rider.

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Re: Goals and Progress - December

Postby piedmontfields » Sun Jan 01, 2017 1:31 am

Flight wrote:I have to say teaching the horses from that single touch makes the strike off quite crisp and very easy for the rider.


This resonates with what I have been taught. It's also to me in alignment with the any lead, any time theme. The outside leg is a touch, not unlike the whip (the whip is back-up).


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