khall wrote:MC first I am at a loss for words that you do not know if your horse has a grazing stance or if he is hi/lo.
I think perhaps you read more into it. All horses I notice graze with one leg forward. Google "horse graze" and then look at "images". Do your horses graze with front feet together? Like the majority of horses, he has a bigger left shoulder and prefers left leg forward.
That just stuns me. It is pretty simple observation of both. But whatever works for you. What I don't understand is you getting your knickers in a twist over my statement about mismatched shoulders. You don't know if your horse has a one sided grazing stance but you take offense believing then I say you did not ride your horse correctly. What I would suggest then is go take a look at your horse in the field grazing, if his shoulders look like Tsavo's horse's do, then more than likely he grazes with his LF foreword and his RF back. Because I believe you in that you worked your horse correctly, based on other posts you have made on training.
I don't have my knickers in a twist at all. I guess I'm looking at things as being a serious problem or a minor one. When I think of hi-lo, I'm envisioning something quite obvious. I suppose because his hooves are not perfectly symmetrical, than maybe you would consider him so. I believe most horses are asymmetrical in the shoulders. Whether it is from the hooves, poor riding, or whatever, It varies. I have seen quite a few BNT FEI horses with all kind of asymmetries. I focus on riding my horse straight, which I am able to do. I think that anyone that doesn't understand how to ride a horse straight, probably is going to have shoulder asymmetry and worse. And...I would say that would be the vast majority of riders.
Also MC I did not just read the article in The Horse (who BTW does a pretty good job of summarizing lots of veterinary studies and information) I used the info from the article to get to the actual study the Dutch did on high level jumping and dressage horses. I found it very interesting.
Did I say anything about The Horse or any specific article? Tsavo mentioned Redding and some barefoot trimmer, Kande mentioned Esco Buff, you mentioned Mendez and Ridgeway and the Dutch article. Two of those sources I would never read, but others would.
Tsavo you posted those photos of your horse wanting to illustrate that a club footed horse has level shoulders based on my statement that if a horse has hi/lo, club foot and grazing stance he will have mismatched shoulders. I quite clearly saw his issues in his shoulders and could tell you A) which foot was the club foot and B) what his grazing stance will look like. I NEVER said ONLY hi/lo or clubby footed horses will have mismatched shoulders. I am sure there are many horses out there out of balance with mismatched shoulders due to bad saddle fit, bad riding etc.
Honestly, I am willing to accept that a lot of problems my horse(s) have had were due to my less-than-perfect riding. But taking my current old guy as an example, I got him at age 7. He was an 'approved' hanoverian stallion gelded upon importation. He did his 100 day test in Medingen, Germany. He was ridden and trained by Klaus Martin Rath, so I assume he had good riding during his formative years. Not long after I bought him, I had Jochen Schleese measure him for a custom saddle. Too bad I've thrown out all the paper work from those days, but I clearly remember him noting the shoulder asymmetry then and him telling me that it likely wouldn't change and he sees it all the time. After that, I have had regular saddle fitting regularly and things have remained pretty much unchanged. Does than mean I should have improved the situation or does that mean that once shoulders are developed, they can't easily change.
Regarding Jochen, which I realize a lot of people don’t like, you have to agree he and his staff look at a lot of horses and document what they see in asymmetry. Here is a quote from one of his articles:
" In my 34+ years of working in this industry, my saddle fit technicians and I have measured and observed upwards of 150,000 horses on pretty much every continent. The majority of them had a definitely stronger muscled left side, with a shoulder blade that was higher and further back than on the right."
The Dutch study is not based on any holistic anything. They saw an problem that has become more prevalent in the breeding of WBs and looked into it. Both with the foals and the 45,000 high level dressage horses and jumping horses in their studbook.
I will try to post some pictures of a few of my horses. My gelding Rip has totally even shoulders, he has never shown a one sided grazing stance and I guess he has been worked properly. I have a wither tracing of his, you can lay it over and it exactly mirrors each other. I'll look at his sister Gaila too, she was one of mine that showed uneven hoof development and wore the cuff. I also have my filly, she has not really been worked but it would be interesting to see what her shoulders look like in a tracing. She was the one who had check ligament surgery.
To be clear, your thinking is that if a person has owned a horse for a while and the shoulders are asymmetrical, then it is likely due to poor riding? Whatever, my priority is if the horse is staying sound and the training is progressing.
