Leg Yield on Circle

[kande50]

As I'm finding out, it's not easy to find a place in an indoor to put a camera to record this, because there's only enough room to yield out on the ends, and I can't set up the cameras on the sides to get video from the back and front. So the video was taken from an angle, and in some of the passes he doesn't engage until just before he goes off camera (the closer shots where I can actually see, of course).

But anyway, what I thought he was doing was lowering his head and neck when he engaged his hind in the leg yield, but now I think what he's doing is telescoping his neck out. I used to read about telescoping the neck all the time, but haven't much recently. Not sure why; maybe it's called something different now?

But anyway, he tends to come out of the corners near the barrels hollow, and then, when he yields out he changes his posture and that's when I get a firmer feel in the right rein, which I can sometimes keep down the long side.

https://youtu.be/yCsZHZh-LVo

When I get too handsy with trying to keep the contact with the right rein he overflexes, his poll drops, and he loses engagement and goes into what I call his hover trot. The hover trot is actually very comfortable to sit and is about the only time I sit on him, and it feels good because it's up more, but the problem with it is that he sucks back too much, his hinds start bouncing more instead of loading more, and he loses the forward drive (without flexing and carrying more, either).

So I'm no longer rewarding him for that, but am instead pushing him onward and rewarding him for a more forward trot.

Here's what it looks like when I think he's overflexing at the poll and losing engagement in the leg yield.

https://youtu.be/tateGnM9fmw

[Chisamba]

I cannot really see your leg yield but I do think I see improved connection in the outsidebrein

[kande50]

Thanks. I'm thinking about how to videotape this so I can see it better, because what it feels like, what I thought it would look like, and what it looks like on video are all quite different.

I've probably seen it numerous times before but just didn't recognize it as what I think it probably is (the telescoping of the neck that I've read so much about, but only had a vague idea of what it might look and feel like).

[musical comedy]

Why do you want to leg yield off the circle? Why not just turn on the quarter line and leg yield to the wall? A piece of advice a trainer told me years ago that stuck with me. He said that whatever quality of gait you had prior to starting a lateral movement, would at best stay the same or get worse (but not better). Any lateral work, including circles, tend to take energy away. So, if you don't have enough energy when you start the lateral work, it will get less. You don't have enough energy in either of those videos. My horse would schuffle around too in an indoor that small. Can you work outside soon in a larger area on long straight lines?

[galopp]

Spiraling outward on a circle (on the open side of circle) from the wall to the centerline, and moving the circle from A towards C (after many circles), is a good way to fill out the outside rein rein from the inside leg (pulsed closer to the girth). And as we can see here the horse became more steadily connected. Better one way than another. This is a much better use of yielding to (moving from) the leg than doing it from the 3/4 line to the wall because there is bending, remember by definition LY is NOT engaging (esp if done straight ahead), but the connection to the outside rein IS improved when it is 'yielding to the leg'(on a curved line).

So, when he did the moving into the outside rein the bit acceptance was improved. Normally you would not want lowering his head and neck, but if the horse is above the bit and not steadily connected it is an improvement. However, it is easy to mix up too many things as once (i.e. fdo/lengthening the outline). First comes the connection to the outside rein, then mobilizing the jaw, and then the ability to fdo. Do not run them all together. First comes 'merely' a steady connection. However, do not allow tensioned trot, a kind of passage trot, keep the energy.

[Chisamba]

Circles improve balance, and ambidextrous musculature. Improved balance and muscling improves gaits.

Spirals out, laterally on the circle (which I do not consider leg yield as they are not straight),are a great tool in encouraging a connection to the outside rein without longitudinal hyper flexion.

I do not believe it is possible to train correctly in dressage without circles and lateral work.

[musical comedy]

Ok ladies, carry on. Without energy you have nothing. There is no connection in those videos. Over and out.

[kande50]

Why do you want to leg yield off the circle?

That's what seems to work the best to get him into the outside rein without losing so much energy, because as you say, we're not the most energetic pair who ever bounced around a ring, so the last thing I want to do is practice exercises that encourage him to suck back more.

Can you work outside soon in a larger area on long straight lines?

I could, and used to ride outside more because there was more room, but now that I've lost interest in going to shows I don't feel like I have to "get in shape" for heat and bugs and distractions, so find myself facing the blackflies much less often. IOW, I've turned into a wicked fair weather rider, and he's turned into the prince and the pea.

[kande50]

Spiraling outward on a circle (on the open side of circle) from the wall to the centerline, and moving the circle from A towards C (after many circles), is a good way to fill out the outside rein rein from the inside leg (pulsed closer to the girth). And as we can see here the horse became more steadily connected. Better one way than another.

Which way looks better to you? Going to the right feels much better to me because the left side is his stiff side, but then when I look at the video I can't see a lot of difference.

This is a much better use of yielding to (moving from) the leg than doing it from the 3/4 line to the wall because there is bending, remember by definition LY is NOT engaging (esp if done straight ahead), but the connection to the outside rein IS improved when it is 'yielding to the leg'(on a curved line).

I try to ride shoulder fore, at least down the long sides, but as MC noted, it's very hard to keep the energy up which makes it much harder to keep the feel in the outside rein. For some reason I end up bringing my right hand way out toward the wall too, which I'm now working on correcting. I may have to tie my hand to the front of the saddle.

So, when he did the moving into the outside rein the bit acceptance was improved. Normally you would not want lowering his head and neck, but if the horse is above the bit and not steadily connected it is an improvement. However, it is easy to mix up too many things as once (i.e. fdo/lengthening the outline).

I'm not trying to get fdo during the leg yield, nor was I trying to get the head lowering on the circle that you see. He just does that sometimes. If he lowers and overflexes at the poll I raise both hands and sit down/back more to encourage him to come back up and out again, but mostly I just ride forward and don't reward it.

First comes the connection to the outside rein, then mobilizing the jaw, and then the ability to fdo. Do not run them all together. First comes 'merely' a steady connection. However, do not allow tensioned trot, a kind of passage trot, keep the energy.

Agree, no more passage trot, but I was under the impression that mobilizing the jaw came first, then connection? But maybe I'm misunderstanding the term "connection". Connection is different than contact, right? Because connection means a connection over the back to the hind end, and not just a connection between the hand and the mouth, which would be "contact"?

[kande50]

Circles improve balance, and ambidextrous musculature. Improved balance and muscling improves gaits.

Agree. I love circles.

Spirals out, laterally on the circle (which I do not consider leg yield as they are not straight),are a great tool in encouraging a connection to the outside rein without longitudinal hyper flexion.

I need to revisit spirals in and out now that I'm ready to try to keep him on the outside rein. Before I just did them to help us develop better balance, but this whole "telescoping the neck" or "opening the throatlatch" while keeping the poll at the highest point of the neck (but not too high) fascinates me. The whole idea of the energy from the hind leg driving forward up through the back and over the poll to the bit has been one of those onion concepts for me, and now that I'm peeling more layers back I'm becoming much more enthusiastic about it.

I do not believe it is possible to train correctly in dressage without circles and lateral work.

I don't either, and the more I understand about it, the more important I think lateral flexibility is. Part of being able to use it effectively isn't just about knowing that we need to develop it, but in finding out how much we need to get what we're trying to get. I've made just as many mistakes by trying to get too much (too soon), as by not trying to get enough.

[galopp]

Going to the left hand the horse is more consistent in the connection, offering more steadiness, going to the right hand (clockwise) the rider is not as sustained in giving the horse a 'soft place to fall' (into the left hand), so the connection/strides are not as consistent, so the horse loses energy. To me, there is a lot of difference.

Would agree that using the outside rein away from the neck (on the long side) to try and keep the horse there IS problematic. The outside rein must envelop the neck, be its safety zone. Otherwise the horse is not secure with the rider 'holding its hand crossing the street'.

The fact is that if you are not steady in your OWN balance and bearing, and just allow any response (even by except because you are not steady) then you are mixing and matching. So the horse does not 'just do xyz', the rider is creating them 99% of the time.

The first thing that happens when riding (in hand, or not) is that the rider sustains ONE posture (it is not fixed, it is simply going to forward into both hands with a steady tempo), then comes lateral flexibility (hence why circles are ridden) which allows for the horse to fill out the outside rein (hence the very beginning of straightness because it controls straightness). Lateral flexibility also allows for mobilization of the jaw and axial rotation (which is the basis of engagement as well).

Connection is part of establishing contact, the rider has to allow it to be established, you need to provide a venue for it within your own body. Sometimes posting will allow more energy to be sustained if it starts to be lost. But 'over the back' is a meaningly phrase tossed about too easily (as is 'through'), for sure a horse can be neither if there is not a steady connection to the mouth; think of the horse as a helium filled ballon, and the rein a string holding it; if the rider does not hold the string the ballon will float away, if they hold it too string (like in a wind storm) it will bobble and jump about. The rider's job is to find the Goldilock's 'right place'. mho

Spiraling out fills out the outside rein, spiraling in straightens and controls (but then the inside rein must serve as a confident place to fall or it will be problematic). I would do the 'slinky' type of spiral (i.e. starting a circle at A and moving it over a number of circles toward C by only asking between the wall and the center line) until the horse is routinely connected to the outside rein). Until you can do that I would not confuse the horse by decreasing the size of the circle since you loose the ability to keep energy even 'enlarging' the circle, so no decreasing it.

Until the horse is routinely not just accepting the bit, but being 'on the bit' (with a light degree of flexion) and with a mobile jaw it should not be asked to do the test of 'chewing the reins from the hand' ( "telescoping the neck" or "opening the throatlatch").

[demi]

Spiraling outward on a circle (on the open side of circle) from the wall to the centerline, and moving the circle from A towards C (after many circles), is a good way to fill out the outside rein rein from the inside leg (pulsed closer to the girth). And as we can see here the horse became more steadily connected...
...

So, when he did the moving into the outside rein the bit acceptance was improved. Normally you would not want lowering his head and neck, but if the horse is above the bit and not steadily connected it is an improvement. However, it is easy to mix up too many things as once (i.e. fdo/lengthening the outline). First comes the connection to the outside rein, then mobilizing the jaw, and then the ability to fdo. Do not run them all together. First comes 'merely' a steady connection. However, do not allow tensioned trot, a kind of passage trot, keep the energy.

I like the exercise described here. I think it's just right for where I am with Emma right now. Thinking about my very simple program that I described in the May goals/progress thread, this exercise is a perfect next step. I didn't even realize it, but after watching Kande's vids, all I am working towards with Emma right now is "merely a steady connection".

I had to watch the vids three times to see it, but when I did, I could see not only a connection, but also the energy. Good, good way to improve my eye!

Thanks Galopp, Kande, and the other contributers.

[Ryeissa]

I am not seeing any leg yield happening here, sorry. He isn't getting any support so the energy is sort of leaking out all over. For this situation I would start with head to the wall to get sideways, then go back to this.Slow down till you can capture each side of the horse

[Chisamba]

Ok ladies, carry on. Without energy you have nothing. There is no connection in those videos. Over and out.

you were only talking about this horse? you made it sound like you were talking about every horse.

[musical comedy]

Ok ladies, carry on. Without energy you have nothing. There is no connection in those videos. Over and out.

you were only talking about this horse? you made it sound like you were talking about every horse.

Yes, I was talking about Kande's horse. Of course I am pro circle and doing leg yield off a circle. However, my other comment about lateral work and circles slowing a horse down, I stand firm on. It's common sense really. Think about it. How many horses speed up on lateral work? Not many if any. If a horse gets too strong at the canter, a circle helps slow him, right? Sluggish horses need to be ridden forward on straight lines. Even ODG books say that.

As far as getting a horse into the outside rein goes, yes of course leg yielding off the circle will help with that. That's dressage 101. My point is that before trying to connect to the outside rein, the horse needs to be forward enough with energy. Let's look at the training scale. See that Rhythm includes energy and tempo. I realize the training scale isn't linear, but satisfying the first rung of it of it is pretty mandatory if you want to succeed at anything. If you don't have Rhythm, Energy, and Tempo, what chance do you have of getting any kind of good connection?

I always forget that Kande's riding goals differ from mine. She doesn't (or at least didn't in the past) want to have any kind of solid connection because to her that meant the horse was against the bit. That's fine if that is what she wants. We should all ride the way we like so long as we are doing the horse any physical harm.

[Chisamba]

all good!

[kande50]

Going to the left hand the horse is more consistent in the connection, offering more steadiness, going to the right hand (clockwise) the rider is not as sustained in giving the horse a 'soft place to fall' (into the left hand), so the connection/strides are not as consistent, so the horse loses energy. To me, there is a lot of difference.

Good news that going counterclockwise looks better, because clockwise is the easy way so I spend a lot more time working counterclockwise . In fact, he feels so much better going clockwise that I only go that way to give him a break from working counterclockwise.

Course the stiffness may be in the neck rather than the body, and the right side of his body could actually be the stiff side and it's only the neck on that side that's more flexible. In fact, I've read that more than once, although I do think most consider the stiff-neck side the stiff side.

Sometimes posting will allow more energy to be sustained if it starts to be lost.

That, and it makes it easier for old ladies to stay in the saddle instead of bouncing right off the horse.

But 'over the back' is a meaningly phrase tossed about too easily (as is 'through'), for sure a horse can be neither if there is not a steady connection to the mouth.

I think the reason for that term is because there can still be a connection between the bit and the hind legs when the horse is hollow or poll low (too round), but the energy from the hind legs can't go all the way "through" because those postures prevent the horse from being able to use his muscles the way he needs to use them to lighten his front end. So the hind legs can still push the horse forward, and actions of the bit will still affect them, but unless the energy from the hinds go "over the back" then the horse can't lift his front end. So I think of "over the back" as shorthand for "just round enough but not too round", or perhaps, "all the way through".

I would do the 'slinky' type of spiral (i.e. starting a circle at A and moving it over a number of circles toward C by only asking between the wall and the center line) until the horse is routinely connected to the outside rein). Until you can do that I would not confuse the horse by decreasing the size of the circle since you loose the ability to keep energy even 'enlarging' the circle, so no decreasing it.

Good idea! I tried it yesterday and got a bit bogged down in planning the circles at first, and then forget to yield out, and then was late starting to yield out, but it is a very fun exercise. I did push for a faster tempo, which looked very choppy to me compared to the very relaxed one we spend so much time in, but that's probably because I'm so used to seeing the slower one so anything faster is going to look too fast.

Until the horse is routinely not just accepting the bit, but being 'on the bit' (with a light degree of flexion) and with a mobile jaw it should not be asked to do the test of 'chewing the reins from the hand' ( "telescoping the neck" or "opening the throatlatch").

I didn't realize that telescoping the neck meant fdo, as I thought they telescoped it out to the front rather than down. I know that their neck naturally goes down as they lengthen it in a forward direction, but I thought fdo was more down than telescoping.

[ElaPe]

I am sorry but I see no leg yielding here, the circle seems to be the same size all the time.

And I agree that without the connection and some degree of impulsion one will not be able to execute a proper leg yield.

And, unfortunately, I see no progress in the riding here compared to what I remember from previous Kande's threads. Horse still is not even on the bit and still barely goes forward.

[musical comedy]

I didn't realize that telescoping the neck meant fdo, as I thought they telescoped it out to the front rather than down. I know that their neck naturally goes down as they lengthen it in a forward direction, but I thought fdo was more down than telescoping.

I think you misunderstood what Galopp wrote. I think she was saying the horse needs to be 'on the bit' before asking for telescoping OR Fdo. I think your understsanding of telescoping is correct. Here a short video clip giving an idea what it looks like.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cTUOMzD03s

[kande50]

I think you misunderstood what Galopp wrote. I think she was saying the horse needs to be 'on the bit' before asking for telescoping OR Fdo. I think your understanding of telescoping is correct. Here a short video clip giving an idea what it looks like.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cTUOMzD03s

Great video, and yes, it illustrates what I understood to be telescoping of the neck. The neck lengthens in a forward direction without anything else *necessarily* changing. It's a super video because it shows how the neck lengthens, which fits right in with the idea that the muscles in front of the withers should develop in a horse that has been ridden correctly. It also shows the head "hanging" from the end of the neck.

[kande50]

I like the exercise described here. I think it's just right for where I am with Emma right now. Thinking about my very simple program that I described in the May goals/progress thread, this exercise is a perfect next step. I didn't even realize it, but after watching Kande's vids, all I am working towards with Emma right now is "merely a steady connection".

I think you may really like this exercise, Demi. I love riding 20 meter circles (or the 18 meter ones that fit in my indoor, anyway), and I like adding the leg yield to them much better than practicing lateral work along the walls. I also think that practicing the leg yields on the circle has improved our lateral work on the walls, and is a much better warmup than what I used to do (lateral work at the walk and then right on to trot).

Here's my first attempt at the slinky circles, with a lot of do overs because I either forgot to leg yield, or thought I might be able to improve that particular circle if I tried again.

https://youtu.be/EtoRjU-kWWE

[galopp]

(not a quote from me, but demi)

That said, any exercise should be chosen for what it contributes to the bearing and balance and development of the horse. Not just to practice it. "Yielding to the leg" on a circle fills out the outside rein, but has bend, whereas LY straight ahead (head to the wall) or toward the wall do not.

As far as the video standing still, it is not involving the entire top line, but only the neck in front of the withers. The horse in movement should 'chew the reins from the hand' arc forward/outward/and down (in millimeters or more depending upon the acceptance of the bit in the first place).

And that is always the problem here, if the horse is not properly starting to be allowed to be steadily on the bit (by the rider allowing a sustained connection rather than an erratic one), then the horse cannot be evenly bending/straighter/with greater amplitude/or lengthened at will within an exercise.

As far as the spirals, when you 'expand'/LY from the wall to the center line (on the open side of the circle) you ride the rest as a normal circle. If you spiral 10' over then the rest of the circle is just a normal circle, do not go all the way back to the point of beginning. And if you are carrying a whip (it looks like you might be?) carry it on the inside (otherwise your hand leaves the neck on the outside).

But imho you do too many things at once, a spiral is a spiral, it is not also fdo, or erratic connection. Work on a steady connection. It's too scattergun to accomplish one thing well. mho

[demi]

You're right Kande, I do like the slinky exercise! I tried it today on my other half Arab mare, Rocky. It took a few attempts to get it smooth and I still have lots of room for improvement. Today was a lunge day for Emma but I'll try the exercise with her tomorrow or Sunday.

Thanks for posting the latest video. Sideways movement on a quarter of a circle is hard to see simply because of camera positioning. I think you'd have to have a moving camera to pick it up. But there are other things to look for. I still want to video my own rides as I think it is such a neat way to learn. I just checked today to see if the soloshot 3 is close to shipping and it is. Well, they say it is, anyway. They hope to start shipping this month. I didn't preorder, but it looks like the last of the preorders will ship in late June, so maybe I could have one by end of summer or fall?!

[kande50]

But imho you do too many things at once, a spiral is a spiral, it is not also fdo, or erratic connection. Work on a steady connection. It's too scattergun to accomplish one thing well. mho

I wasn't trying to do fdo, but he said he needed to stretch so I let him. He doesn't ask to stretch that often so if he wants to it's fine with me.

I was also working on a steady connection, but to me, a steady connection is not just putting a horse against the bit so that the reins are always taut and he can't move his head, but is the ability to maintain a steady "light" connection because the balance is such that the hands are able to follow the mouth because both horse and rider are steady enough.

I did notice in the video that it's much easier to see the yielding when it's away from the camera rather than toward it, so next time I'm going to start at C (the only place I have to put the camera) and spiral toward A, because I think I'll be able to assess what was going on better. I also realized that I need to start the leg yield as I'm leaving the wall, instead of after I've left it.

I carry two short whips, so my hands going out the right is just a bad habit I've gotten into when I'm trying to get him to bend his neck to the left and move closer to the wall going that way. I don't do it going the other way because I have no trouble getting him to bend right and stay close to the wall that way.

Couldn't this exercise also be done on one circle, by yielding out toward both A and C?

[kande50]

I just checked today to see if the soloshot 3 is close to shipping and it is. Well, they say it is, anyway. They hope to start shipping this month.

The Soloshot 3 sounds like it's going to be a fantastic system if they can ever get it to work indoors. Last I heard they were ready, or almost ready to ship it, but were still working on the indoor tracking.

[galopp]

....but he said he needed to stretch so I let him. He doesn't ask to stretch that often so if he wants to it's fine with me.

Two reactions to that: Perhaps the horse is finally connecting to the hand, and you drop the horse, and then the balance is lost. The second is (and I will put this in terms of a kid) a child can want a candy bar at check out, that doesnt mean the parent should give it to them. The rider is forming the framework for balance, education, advancement in training. Without a plan it is simply things from column a b c but the main course is missing.

I was also working on a steady connection, but to me, a steady connection is not just putting a horse against the bit so that the reins are always taut and he can't move his head, but is the ability to maintain a steady "light" connection because the balance is such that the hands are able to follow the mouth because both horse and rider are steady enough.

But therein is the rub, you are NOT providing a steady connection, its all over the place, so the horse cannot maintain the energy. Your horse is a bow, you cannot shoot a bow from a limp bow, but from an arced one; horse horse is the bow. Your posture and your hand must be sustained. The more steady and upright, the more the horse can become a reflection of that. The reason for working in trot is that there is no telescoping within that gait, there is nothing to follow (except if you are riding over caveletti, or asking specifically for fdo). In walk and canter there is bascule, there has to be a flexibility in the shoulder socket and elbow, not so in trot.

I carry two short whips, so my hands going out the right is just a bad habit I've gotten into when I'm trying to get him to bend his neck to the left and move closer to the wall going that way. I don't do it going the other way because I have no trouble getting him to bend right and stay close to the wall that way.

Not a good idea to carry multiple ones imho, it tends to widen the hands, and short whips do not support the (action of the) calf (which is the entire point of carrying one, to support the calf's touch). To flex the horse to the inside, it is very simple: lift the inside hand a smidge and they cannot counter flex. But bending should be through the entire body, not just the neck. Moving toward the wall is a reaction to the inside leg, not the outside hand pulling the horse there (and use of the outside hand actually will call LY away from it).

Couldn't this exercise also be done on one circle, by yielding out toward both A and C?

The point of spiraling is to fill out the outside rein via pulsations of inside leg closer to the circle, and then keeping the horse straighter on the circle because of that. If you did both sides it would like create a horse which falls out too easily, and not 'standing on the outside rein' (which obviously the rider would have to sustain). One can never get to self carriage/collection/amplitude of stride without such a connection. Otherwise the rider is simply going around in circles, but not advancing the horse's understanding. mho

[kande50]

Two reactions to that: Perhaps the horse is finally connecting to the hand, and you drop the horse, and then the balance is lost. The second is (and I will put this in terms of a kid) a child can want a candy bar at check out, that doesnt mean the parent should give it to them. The rider is forming the framework for balance, education, advancement in training. Without a plan it is simply things from column a b c but the main course is missing.

Both reasons are possible, but what if it wasn't a candy bar that the kid wanted, but any food at all, because he was hungry? How long do we let him go hungry before we relieve his discomfort? Same with the connection, how long do we pressure a horse to stay connected if he can't, or if it's becoming difficult, uncomfortable, or painful? I think it's important to assess things like how long the horse has been working, what his normal reactions are like, and how submissive and obedient one needs the horse to be, before just unilaterally deciding that the horse must obey because he's just being a brat and can't be allowed to get away with it.

But therein is the rub, you are NOT providing a steady connection, its all over the place, so the horse cannot maintain the energy.

I provide the steadiest connection that I'm able, but that's the best I can do because there's no way to make myself steadier than I'm able to be.

Not a good idea to carry multiple ones imho, it tends to widen the hands, and short whips do not support the (action of the) calf (which is the entire point of carrying one, to support the calf's touch). To flex the horse to the inside, it is very simple: lift the inside hand a smidge and they cannot counter flex.

He doesn't counterflex in response to the inside hand so much as do everything else except bend his neck, and the neck bend seems to need to come first before the body can bend.

Moving toward the wall is a reaction to the inside leg, not the outside hand pulling the horse there (and use of the outside hand actually will call LY away from it).

It's the outside hand in conjunction with the inside hand and leg, and ends up being a sort of neck rein with the inside hand coming in and the outside hand out. It's not as noticeable if I keep the reins shorter, but instead of shortening them I just take up the extra length by widening my hands until I get to a good place to shorten them. I don't know how people manage to keep their reins the same length all the time, although I suppose what they do is just put it on the horse to adjust to the length of rein they allow them?

As far as the inside leg: I also use my inside leg for go and canter, so no surprise that I get go or canter instead of ly sometimes when I use it. It all started when I was trying to use my inside leg to get him closer to the wall and apparently, he felt that he couldn't move any closer because the wall was blocking him. Took me awhile to figure that one out. :-/

The point of spiraling is to fill out the outside rein via pulsations of inside leg closer to the circle, and then keeping the horse straighter on the circle because of that. If you did both sides it would like create a horse which falls out too easily, and not 'standing on the outside rein' (which obviously the rider would have to sustain).

So maybe the thing to do would be to do lots of leg yield out on the circle until they got really good at it, and then start yielding out and then in, to teach them that it isn't only about yielding out? What's falling out, anyway? Is it when the rider is trying to stay on the circle and the horse drifts out on his own? Does it describe any one part falling out more than another, or does falling out describe the whole horse? Isn't that what the outside aids are for, to prevent the horse from bulging or falling out?

One can never get to self carriage/collection/amplitude of stride without such a connection.

Don't know, but it seems like PK is getting there with High Noon, and he has a nice soft, light connection, and it hasn't always been steady, either. My own feeling is that it isn't the connection with the horse's mouth that's important, but the connection with his brain, which is why so many can so effectively influence their horses' bodies without needing to continuously push and/or pull on them.

[galopp]

.... how long do we pressure a horse to stay connected if he can't, or if it's becoming difficult, uncomfortable, or painful? I think it's important to assess things like how long the horse has been working, what his normal reactions are like, and how submissive and obedient one needs the horse to be, before just unilaterally deciding that the horse must obey because he's just being a brat and can't be allowed to get away with it.

But that is a mind set which needs a paradigm shift. The horse is not being pressured IF the work is done with preparation. The rider is pulsing the inside leg, blowing wind from leg into the sail of the hand. Not pushing and holding, but letting the horse find balance under us that it would have without us. It is not about must obey, it is allowing a choice. But if the rider 'moves the signpost' all the time the horse cannot figure out what balance the rider wants because it is the rider which is asking one thing, allowing another, never coming from the same place. For some horses that makes them crazy, others buck or stop, and others just resign themselves. Horses are never 'brats', they merely go along to get along; but when the riders are brats and have no clarity, they are just as problematic as those which are harsh.

I provide the steadiest connection that I'm able, but that's the best I can do because there's no way to make myself steadier than I'm able to be.

Actually you do not, you could remain stable, you choose not to, and change the perimeters all the time. We humans are capable of logic (in training), horses just try to fit into the perimeters. You ask one thing, and then another which crosses your mind but without a plan for progressive training. imho

He doesn't counterflex in response to the inside hand so much as do everything else except bend his neck, and the neck bend seems to need to come first before the body can bend.

Because of the opening outside rein.

It's the outside hand in conjunction with the inside hand and leg, and ends up being a sort of neck rein with the inside hand coming in and the outside hand out. It's not as noticeable if I keep the reins shorter, but instead of shortening them I just take up the extra length by widening my hands until I get to a good place to shorten them.

Many elements all mixed up. LY is a result of inside leg filing out the outside rein. While neck/bearing reining is a rein effect for turning the horse the opposite way, it is learned early in training as a singular effect. And opening/leading rein (whether inside or outside) is for a gentle turn. If you combine inside neck rein with outside opening rein the shoulder will lead and the horse will fall toward that shoulder, that would not be even bending, and it would be for a short turn and not straighter through the body; and there is little escape for the horse. Widening the hands is a calculated mechanism of the rider when riding straight ahead, evenly into both reins. Why all this lengthening the reins, keep the thumb not the bight of the reins, then there will be little need (or change to a driving rein hold which makes the rider have to ride from the seat/legs effect).

As far as the inside leg: I also use my inside leg for go and canter, so no surprise that I get go or canter instead of ly sometimes when I use it.

Go=both calves pulsed. Canter depart is a combination of placement outside leg behind the girth and inside leg closer to the girth and stilling the seat/being upright/and setting up with half halts, then whether you choose the outside leg, or inside is less material. LY is inside leg pulsing closer to the girth and willing out the outside rein.

So maybe the thing to do would be to do lots of leg yield out on the circle until they got really good at it, and then start yielding out and then in, to teach them that it isn't only about yielding out? What's falling out, anyway? Is it when the rider is trying to stay on the circle and the horse drifts out on his own? Does it describe any one part falling out more than another, or does falling out describe the whole horse? Isn't that what the outside aids are for, to prevent the horse from bulging or falling out?

Why do we choose LY? For some horses it is very imbalanceing and not a good idea. It is to straighten the horse through getting a reaction to the inside aids, it comes after the horse understands circles, corners, and the basic rein aids. Head to the wall this is taught quite quickly, anything after that it is more for a rider's education than for the horse's benefit because it is not engaging. And traditionally the rider then went on to shoulder fore and then shoulder in (and then renvers), all are parts of controlling/placing the shoulders (to influence straightness).

Don't know, but it seems like PK is getting there with High Noon, and he has a nice soft, light connection, and it hasn't always been steady, either. My own feeling is that it isn't the connection with the horse's mouth that's important, but the connection with his brain, which is why so many can so effectively influence their horses' bodies without needing to continuously push and/or pull on them.

Clearly you have not watched his progression of training as to balance, as to how to lengthen the outline. You look at the end product but don't understand the steps toward lightness and self carriage imho. Yes, a methodical set of perimeters through methodical application of exercises and interactions which get the horse to balance. Very calculated.

[Sue B]

Hey Kande, watch your body when you send your right hand way to the outside and then watch Sting's body. You are weighting your outside stirrup and collapsing your outside hip, all of which is telling the horse to move away from the OUTSIDE leg. Maybe grab a chunk of mane to keep your right hand where it belongs? It might help you to stay centered. I do have to say, your riding has improved over the years so good job.

[kande50]

He doesn't counterflex in response to the inside hand so much as do everything else except bend his neck, and the neck bend seems to need to come first before the body can bend.

Because of the opening outside rein.

I don't think I open my right hand until after he bends left, but then I try to use it to keep him out when I should be using my left leg to do that. Hence my enthusiasm for the leg yields on the circles exercises, because practicing them is sensitizing him to my inside leg so he's less likely to ignore it, or give me something else, when I want him to move closer to the wall.

I could just avoid the whole problem by not being so obsessive about working so close to the wall, but it's a small indoor and allowing him to work on an inside track (and cut corners) just makes it smaller.

More later....

[kande50]

Hey Kande, watch your body when you send your right hand way to the outside and then watch Sting's body. You are weighting your outside stirrup and collapsing your outside hip, all of which is telling the horse to move away from the OUTSIDE leg. Maybe grab a chunk of mane to keep your right hand where it belongs? It might help you to stay centered. I do have to say, your riding has improved over the years so good job.

Thanks Sue B. Good idea, and if I can't remember to keep a grip on the mane I'm going to tie my right hand to the saddle with a piece of yarn. Don't know if that will help solve the leaning too, although that's at least partly from trying to use my left leg and my weight to get him over, so my hope is that if we stick with this leg yielding on circles for awhile he'll get so sensitized to my left leg that I won't feel any need to try to use my hands and contort my body to keep him over.

[kande50]

The horse is not being pressured IF the work is done with preparation.

The horse is still being pressured, but just with less pressure over a longer period of time.

others just resign themselves. Horses are never 'brats', they merely go along to get along; but when the riders are brats and have no clarity, they are just as problematic as those which are harsh.

I strongly disagree, as I think harsh training is the hardest on a horse both because it causes pain which makes them stiffer, and because it is so often paired with the kind of work that damages them. Lack of clarity obviously is not a problem for horses as long as we're not harsh with them, because if it was I, and a lot of other riders, would be living on the moon by now.

I provide the steadiest connection that I'm able, but that's the best I can do because there's no way to make myself steadier than I'm able to be.Actually you do not, you could remain stable, you choose not to, and change the perimeters all the time.

Possibly, but revisiting old skills when we know more is not a bad thing. Sure, it may change the parameters some, but better fluency before trying to move on is IMO, always a good thing.

We humans are capable of logic (in training), horses just try to fit into the perimeters. You ask one thing, and then another which crosses your mind but without a plan for progressive training. imho

I'm aware of the different progressions, and I'm aware of a lot of their pitfalls, which is why everything I do is in preparation for the next step in the progression without falling into any the pits (of which I'm aware). If I become aware that I'm falling, or about to fall, then yes, I stop and take a closer look at where I'm going wrong.

Leg yielding on the circle seems to be very similar to shoulder in, but I find it a lot easier to maintain the energy on the circle than along the wall. What seems to be working well now is to leg yield on the circle, maintain it until I get to the wall, and then go down the wall in the same position.

Clearly you have not watched his progression of training as to balance, as to how to lengthen the outline. You look at the end product but don't understand the steps toward lightness and self carriage imho. Yes, a methodical set of perimeters through methodical application of exercises and interactions which get the horse to balance. Very calculated.

I wasn't saying that he didn't have a plan, and a fairly traditional one at that, but only that he apparently feels that keeping the contact soft and light is way more important than a steady connection, because he doesn't appear to have any big problem with a bit of a loop in the rein at times. But then, he's not interested in competitive dressage, but in a horse who can lighten his front end.

[galopp]

Leg yielding on the circle seems to be very similar to shoulder in, but I find it a lot easier to maintain the energy on the circle than along the wall. What seems to be working well now is to leg yield on the circle, maintain it until I get to the wall, and then go down the wall in the same position.

You only want to do LY from the wall to the centerline, not half of a circle, but a quarter. Otherwise the horse just learns to fall out of a circle. The LY part is about three strides, then take advantage of the fact the horse met the hand and got straighter. It is NOT like SI, because in LY the horse meets the outside rein, gets straighter. In SI, the shoulders are mobilized to the inside track. Yielding to the inside leg may be a step in filling out the outside rein, but it is not moving the shoulders in it it is moving the quarters and shoulders outward.

Riders well educated in training horses (to lightness and self carriage) have given us all a blueprint for advancing horses, which exercises precede one another, and why. You cannot just make an exercise soup and produce a horse which comes to understanding. For sure when he teaches it is about a steady connection and a mobile jaw and then extension/lengthening of the outline. Because of that the horses become lighter because they are balanced. There is a clarity for the horse about the hh, the exercise's balance/posture; it is not just posing which is a short coming of misunderstanding of french influence). There is a huge difference between the rider just allowing loose reins at any old moment and rewarding the horse for staying up and open. Imho you mix that up, you don't have the horse balanced over all four legs first. There is a reason he say our reactions create their reactions (and balance).

Imho you mix up/blame dance partners which shove their partners around crudely as excuse for not touching their partners at all. The result is a partner which hence have to guess what direction and balance they should have. Neither is useful. And with humans mentally its just biped vs horses with their quadruped balance with us sitting on their balance board. For me, with a language of touch and balance with the horse it is necessary to ask and allow as to not have huge gaps in the conversation, or leave them to free fall.

[Flight]

At the risk of falling into the Kande well, I do have to say that your threads generate some good discussion Kande!
I have always wanted to get this 'lightness' etc too but finally now with my current instructor, understanding that really this true lightness comes about when the horse offers it in it's own balance and self carriage. Yes, I've read that over and over but when you start feeling it, then you start to really 'get' it. But it's a process, and you develop it with exercises done correctly (as gallop says) and time and showing the horse how you want it to be. It doesn't have to be forceful at all. My little horse has developed so well over the past year and it's taken a whole year, but he's so much more willing and capable now. It's very cool.
I know I've read that you've said you want to do this your own way, and you've had trouble with instructors, but if you can find a good classical style one it's well worth it.

[kande50]

You only want to do LY from the wall to the centerline, not half of a circle, but a quarter. Otherwise the horse just learns to fall out of a circle. The LY part is about three strides, then take advantage of the fact the horse met the hand and got straighter.

Thanks you for the clarification on that, as I missed it the first time around.

It is NOT like SI, because in LY the horse meets the outside rein, gets straighter. In SI, the shoulders are mobilized to the inside track. Yielding to the inside leg may be a step in filling out the inside rein

Filling out the inside rein? I thought they were both about filling out the outside rein? Did you mean outside rein? If you meant inside rein could you explain that further?

but it is not moving the shoulders in it it is moving the quarters and shoulders outward.

Yes, but I'm using basically the same aids to get leg yield on the circle and sf/si, except I've been using the wall to substitute for the outside leg in sf/si. And they both feel very similar--which may actually mean that I'm doing ly with bend along the wall. I can also get sf by bending first and then moving the hinds out and then moving down along the wall.

There is a huge difference between the rider just allowing loose reins at any old moment and rewarding the horse for staying up and open. Imho you mix that up

I think I probably understand it, but just believe that if the contact is going to be light enough then the reins are going to slacken at times.

My issue with "steady contact" is that if you look at the graphs that rein sensors measure and record, the contact is not steady even when the horse's head remains still, the rider's hands remain still, and the reins remain taut, but it instead fluctuates between ounces and pounds as the horse and rider move. One of the graphs produced by a pro riding an advanced horse showed pressures (forces) that fluctuated between about 3lbs and at least 10lbs, with an average of about 5lbs--and that was only over a particular portion of the graph.

I think if you put rein sensors on horses who are ridden in lightness there might also be strong pressure at times, but they would be for shorter durations and there would be more "weight of the rein" pressure because the fluctuations would be over a lower range. In fact, it's a shame that more rein sensor graphs with accompanying videos aren't available so that we could get a better idea of what the effects of strong and weak pressures are on the horses, without having to guess at what the rider is doing with his hands to produce the effect we see in videos.

Imho you mix up/blame dance partners which shove their partners around crudely as excuse for not touching their partners at all. The result is a partner which hence have to guess what direction and balance they should have.

I don't think dancing a good analogy for riding a horse, because when two humans are dancing the pressures they use are *not* aversives that one partner is trying to avoid or escape, but instead are simply cues. Horses OTOH, are trained with aversives, which they need to learn to avoid or escape, which is an entirely different state of affairs.

[Dresseur]

I don't think dancing a good analogy for riding a horse, because when two humans are dancing the pressures they use are *not* aversives that one partner is trying to avoid or escape, but instead are simply cues. Horses OTOH, are trained with aversives, which they need to learn to avoid or escape, which is an entirely different state of affairs.

IMO, there are plenty of aversives in dancing that one tries to avoid. Having to do something over and over and over again, partners slapping others in the back as reminders, getting dropped in lifts, stepping on toes to get across the point of moving your feet more quickly, body shaming, etc. And, on top of that dancing is painful, especially lifts - broken and displaced ribs are common, as are shoulder injuries. Once you get through that, there are cues that the partners learn to respond to, as well as trust, but we are lucky enough to have language to help communicate. But, new partners in dance take a long time to gel, and that's definitely not a pretty or overly airy-fairy process.

[kande50]

IMO, there are plenty of aversives in dancing that one tries to avoid. Having to do something over and over and over again, partners slapping others in the back as reminders, getting dropped in lifts, stepping on toes to get across the point of moving your feet more quickly, body shaming, etc.

I had no idea that dancing partners deliberately used aversives on each other that way, and thought that any aversives that occurred were accidental or situational, and weren't for the purpose of motivating one's partner to do something! So if partners actually do train each other that way, then maybe the dancing analogy is more apt than I thought it was?

[galopp]

The wall is not a substitute for the outside leg in sf/si. Many riders do pull their inside leg back and ride a kind of LY and call it sf or SI. They should not feel very similar, the inside sinks down in SI (the quarters are almost straight on the track) and the outside fore reaches, the hind legs do not cross in SI. Neither movement is really started by bending first, and moving the croup out, that by definition is not mobilizing the shoulders which is the heart of sf/si/renvers. That would be contrary to straightening.

The only time contact is going to be very light (to intentionally slacken the reins) should be when the horse is showing a degree of collection and self carriage (following a half halt).

I have seen some of the rein sensors work, but the question is one of GIGO. Contact should never be in pounds imho. The fact is very few horses are ridden in such a manner (i.e. with use of ubersteichen/descente de main/etc) that they culminate in self carriage. That argument is obfuscation for the point of connection at all.

For me the dancing analogy for riding a horse is exactly the point. Pressure with a poor dancer IS adverse, they push and pull (and step on the feet of the partner. Because good riding is about allowing balance (which the horses crave) they choose it (when allowed); witness the fact the horse will rarely 'resist' a rider which allows balance, they actually choose the connection. Too many riders miss that fact in training, they are simply making the horse do their bitting w/o regard to balance. mho

[demi]

I tried the exercise again on Rocky today. I started this time at the walk instead of trot (we had high winds today and I was being cautious). I found it harder at the walk. I got a decent 20m circle going for several round before I started the LY. I found that I had to start counting strides. She took 4 complete walk strides per 1/4 of a 20m circle. By counting the strides I was able to tell when I was starting to let the circle turn into and oval.

After a couple times up and down the arena (20mX40m arena) in each direction, I went to trot. Quite a bit easier, although I still had to pay attention not to let the circle get oval. Rocky took 3 complete trot strides per 1/4 circle. If I found she was taking more than 3 strides, either I was allowing the circle to go oval, or I wasn't keeping a good, regular tempo.

[demi]

I was just thinking about this ride and I forgot to mention that I am riding Rocky without a whip. I decided since I can't use a whip with Emma right now, I might as well practice going whipless with rocky, too. I am finding that I was relying on the whip too much. Without the whip, I have to be quicker and clearer with my core, legs, and seatbones.

[kande50]

I was just thinking about this ride and I forgot to mention that I am riding Rocky without a whip. I decided since I can't use a whip with Emma right now, I might as well practice going whipless with rocky, too. I am finding that I was relying on the whip too much. Without the whip, I have to be quicker and clearer with my core, legs, and seatbones.

Super idea to count strides. I'm going to try to get out there today and remember to yield from wall to centerline and then straighten, and to count strides, too. Wish me luck.

Did you find that you got more strides on the quarter on which you yielded out than on the other quarters?

I think Sting puts in more like 5 to 6 trot strides/quarter on the 18 meter circle in my indoor, and probably quite a few more at the walk.

I'm still relying on the whip on the neck going left to tell him when I want him to bend his neck, because my inside leg and rein cues are apparently, not always clear enough. This exercise should help with that, though.

[galopp]

The reason the horse has too many strides is that they lack ground covering. And no, there are not more when the horse is 'yielding to the leg' (it is not really LY because the horse is bending). And to continue on the circle simply cease to pulse the inside leg, do not use a rein to do it. The neck should not bend in a vacuum, so it is the placement of both legs (any use of the whip it to support the pulsing of the leg). If you want inside flexion, simply lift the inside rein a smidge.

[kande50]

The reason the horse has too many strides is that they lack ground covering. And no, there are not more when the horse is 'yielding to the leg' (it is not really LY because the horse is bending).

So should they lengthen their strides on the quarter where they yield out toward C, because if they're moving outward on the circle in that quarter it would then be a longer distance from the wall to the centerline, because they'd be starting at the same place on the wall as the last circle and then hitting the centerline further down toward C?

And to continue on the circle simply cease to pulse the inside leg, do not use a rein to do it.

That fits in with what has been happening, so I think I may have that part.

The neck should not bend in a vacuum, so it is the placement of both legs (any use of the whip it to support the pulsing of the leg). If you want inside flexion, simply lift the inside rein a smidge.

That didn't work before he understood that he could move closer to the wall, because he felt blocked by the wall so the more I used my inside rein the more he found ways to respond that did not involve moving closer to the wall.

And then I never fully caught on to what the issue was until I realized that he moved away from my leg just fine when there was no wall there, but couldn't seem to do it next to the wall.

The stuff in the corners is also sometimes a problem for him, because he'll pass it but doesn't want to move closer, and especially not bent to the inside which prevents him from being able to see it clearly. I was aware of that though, because I recognize his "I'm scared of that" reactions now, but it did confuse the issue because I never knew for sure if he was afraid to move closer to the corner, was feeling blocked by the wall, or didn't understand what I wanted him to do.

I recently watched someone else having the same problem with her horse, and the more she upped the pressure the more nervous he got and the further he got from the wall. What I saw was that her horse truly felt that he couldn't move that way because the wall was there, and apparently, the idea that he could step closer without actually having to touch the wall completely eluded him.

Also, a 18 meter circle would have a circumference of about 60 meters, which is about 197 feet. So if a horse's working trot stride is 9 feet (taken from this paper: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8542844), then it should take 22 strides to go around the circle once, so about 5.5 strides per quarter.

[galopp]

When the circle is moved to the left (or right) there is no longer distance, the circle is still a circle it simply moved around a different center point.

Horses rarely feel blocked by the wall, but almost always by a rider trying to pull them over (and not even realize they are doing so), in other words, rider error (shown in the vid). It goes all the way back to introducing the basic rein effects (opening/leading rein, and bearing/neck rein, and then as an orchestra), and horse evenly into both rein's connection.

Rider's get frustrated with their horses 'not doing what they want', but rarely have an awareness that they are created the very behavior they don't like. What you might see, and what an educated trainer/teacher sees may be very different things. Riders are actually giving LY aids (away from the wall via their grip on the outside rein), but then wondering why the horse wont move toward it. Many (most) greener horses will actually rub the rider on the wall vs the opposite.

The amount of strides on a circle should take into account the energy and gait as well. Usually it is usually 16 strides, four per quarter. Going straight ahead (large arena) have had horses which could do the long side in 8-10 strides of canter (thats 19-24' per stride) when he was greener. (The ODG's actually not only had the letter markers, but the arena had meter markers.)

[demi]

....

Also, a 18 meter circle would have a circumference of about 60 meters, which is about 197 feet. So if a horse's working trot stride is 9 feet (taken from this paper: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8542844), then it should take 22 strides to go around the circle once, so about 5.5 strides per quarter.

I am probably not counting strides correctly. I wonder if I am just counting half strides. Rocky is only 14.2hh with shortish legs so she should be taking more strides than Sting. Whatever I was counting though, was very consistent on a good 20m circle.

Also, I didn't notice any more steps in the leg yield quarter, just as Galopp said. I only ask for a little bit of yeild and end up getting more circles...in other words, if I do very shallow leg yields, I might get 8 circles in a short arena, but if I did extreme leg yields I'd only get 5 circles in a short arena. I didn't actually count the number of circles I get in one pass of the arena but that might be something worth doing. And then see if I can keep that number consistent.

I'll watch some 20m circles on youtube and see if I can learn to count strides

[kande50]

When the circle is moved to the left (or right) there is no longer distance, the circle is still a circle it simply moved around a different center point.

But the only way you can change the center point is to go down the wall to get to the side of the new circle, or yield out on a wider arc to get to the point on the centerline that's closer to C and start the circle there. But if we do the latter (which I think is how we're supposed to be doing the exercise), then the arc from the wall to the centerline of the new circle is going to be longer than it would have been if we'd stayed on the same circle.

Horses rarely feel blocked by the wall

When I first started him he not only felt blocked by the wall, but he was afraid of the light that showed through underneath the wall in some parts of the ring. And until I realized why he didn't want to go over there I was baffled by how inconsistent he was in his responses to the cues.

Many (most) greener horses will actually rub the rider on the wall vs the opposite.

He'd rub my stirrup on the wall often enough, and I had to start carrying a shorter whip because he would get close enough to the wall at times that the tip of the whip would get caught between the pieces of plywood where there were gaps, but that didn't change the fact that he didn't want to get to close to the wall in places, and especially not when he was bent away from it so couldn't see it clearly.

The amount of strides on a circle should take into account the energy and gait as well. Usually it is usually 16 strides, four per quarter.

Hillary Clayton, in the study I posted above, measured stride length in six "highly trained dressage horses" as:

8.2 feet in collected trot (6.2 strides/quarter)
9 feet in working trot (5.7 strides/quarter)
10.7 feet in medium trot (4.8 strides/quarter)
11.6 feet in extended trot (4.4 strides/quarter)

So if a 20 meter circle has a circumference of 206 feet, then each quarter would be 51 feet, so a horse taking 4 strides/quarter would have to generate a stride length of 12.75 feet, which is probably why, when I look at videos and count strides on a 20 meter circle I can't find video of horses taking 4 strides/quarter?

Going straight ahead (large arena) have had horses which could do the long side in 8-10 strides of canter (thats 19-24' per stride) when he was greener.

Straight ahead is a different story, as Standardbreds can produce trot stride lengths of well over 16 feet, but would probably have a hard time matching that on a 20 meter circle?

[kande50]

I am probably not counting strides correctly. I wonder if I am just counting half strides. Rocky is only 14.2hh with shortish legs so she should be taking more strides than Sting. Whatever I was counting though, was very consistent on a good 20m circle.

If you were counting half strides and getting 3 then that would mean she was taking 6 strides/quarter, which could be about right. I started out counting strides yesterday, but should have counted them out loud so the camera would record how many, because I've forgotten now. I think it was 6-7 strides/quarter in walk and 5 to 6 in trot, but now I can't remember if I got more on the leg yield quarter? I could try to count from video, but it's much harder to tell where the quarter starts and ends.

Warming up in walk on the slinky circles was a good exercise, because I usually warm up on the track so doing it on the circles from the other end revealed some holes (like wanting to si down the wall toward the gate instead of turning off the wall smoothy to go away from the direction he wanted to go).

Also, I didn't notice any more steps in the leg yield quarter, just as Galopp said. I only ask for a little bit of yeild and end up getting more circles...in other words, if I do very shallow leg yields, I might get 8 circles in a short arena, but if I did extreme leg yields I'd only get 5 circles in a short arena. I didn't actually count the number of circles I get in one pass of the arena but that might be something worth doing. And then see if I can keep that number consistent.

I was going for as much yielding out as I could get, so was getting a maximum of 5 circles--with lots of repeats, so will continue to work on this exercise until we can do nice even circles both ways without feeling the need to do repeats.

Something else that occurred to me re: the Soloshot, is that if you don't need the indoor tracking you may want to go ahead and get one, because it's the indoor tracking device that they're still working on, and from what I read they're willing to ship that later if you want the outdoor part now.

[demi]

So when I was counting steps with Rocky I was posting and counting every other time I sat. Duh. But a bigger problem was that I was only guesstimating where my touch points were (except for A and C)so my 20m circles were neither precise, nor accurate. Even so, the exercise made me conscious of how important geometry is in dressage. Of course, we KNOW this, but it is one of those things that I just never paid the proper attention to.

Now, since I need to keep things very simple with Emma, I am going to spend a lot more time on geometry. My arena is probably close to being 20 X 40 meters, but I originally measured it in feet with a 50 foot tape measure, so it isn't perfect. After getting on this kick, I reset my letters (they get moved every time I mow and I just roughly eyeball where to reset them), carefully stepping them off several times, and marked the touch points with red spray paint.

I've ridden Emma several times with newly marked arena and she gets 24 steps to the complete 20m circle, so 6 per quarter. That's what I was getting with Rocky, too, but I need to recount her steps now that I have my arena set up better.

There is a lot of information to be gleaned from this exercise if done carefully. I found it very helpful in keeping a consistent rhythm. Counting out loud was like adding another "feeler" to my senses. Also, I could tell that at first, I was not just putting her in position and then letting the circle happen naturally. I was having to adjust the steering a lot. Once I figured out the position, or arc her body needed, all I needed to do was keep her in a consistent rhythm. Easier said than done, however. I could get some really nice circles, but had as many not so nice circles. I am now convinced it is important to get to the point where riding a good 20m circle is second nature.

Here is a video on youtube where they electronically put a perfect 20 m circle visual on the arena , and then videoed the rider from above. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uG14o0n0NTg

BTW, Kande, I don't know whether the Soloshot3 that is almost ready for shipping has the indoor gadget or not. I don't have an indoor so it isnt necessary for me, but they still haven't shipped any of the 3rd generation, indoor capable or not. I will wait!

[galopp]

But the only way you can change the center point is to go down the wall to get to the side of the new circle, or yield out on a wider arc to get to the point on the centerline that's closer to C and start the circle there.

The circle is ridden yielding to the leg from the wall to the centerline, this is approximately 3 strides of leg yielding. The rest of the circle (3/4 of it) is ridden normally.

[demi]

Sorry I strayed from the thread topic of leg yield on a circle. But it is necessary to ride a near perfect 20 m circle before you start the leg yield.