On the forehand piaffe

[kande50]

I was over on tob and opened a link that was posted and happened to jump to about 2:40 on the video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUC1MWnaUPY

As I mentioned over there, what a great example of otf piaffe. Incredible hang time/hesitation with those hinds!

I don't watch much competitive dressage so was quite impressed with how high and and wide that horse could fling his hinds, which I guess is what happens when that way of moving is encouraged? I felt bad for the horse, but I feel bad for most of the top horses so not just this one.

[galopp]

It's balancee (shifting side to side) and hitching with the left hind, they are not supposed to be wider in piaffe (it is an evasion partly created by the compressed outline). Piaffe (according to the rules) should allow the forearms to come to horizontal, and the hind feet should (only) be lifted to the cornet bands. When it is so high the horse is leaning over the forelegs. He rides very athletic horses, but this is problematic imho.

[kande50]

It's balancee (shifting side to side) and hitching with the left hind, they are not supposed to be wider in piaffe (it is an evasion partly created by the compressed outline). Piaffe (according to the rules) should allow the forearms to come to horizontal, and the hind feet should (only) be lifted to the cornet bands. When it is so high the horse is leaning over the forelegs. He rides very athletic horses, but this is problematic imho.

Competitive dressage has turned into something very different from what dressage used to be. I could accept it as another style of dressage if there weren't rules that clearly describe what it's supposed to look like. I know that they're trying to change the rules to accommodate what dressage has turned into, but I think they'd have to completely rewrite the rule book to even come close. But instead, they've kept the old rules and just added or rewritten others that contradict them, which does tend to make everyone suspicious that dressage is more about a showcase for those who are making money from it rather than any kind of a fair competition.

IMO, the whole thing would be a real spectacle if the new circus dresssage wasn't at the expense of the horses.

[orono]

This style of piaffe is often seen in horses who have it taught and/or reinforced from the ground. The hitch on the left indicates it is probably done with the handler on the left side, likely at the shoulder tapping the horse on the croup. Zonik is a dramatic mover, and we've seen in the past that he occasionally has slight rhythm irregularities to compensate. Since this was his debut at GP, I would expect the piaffe to mature over the next while.

[kande50]

This style of piaffe is often seen in horses who have it taught and/or reinforced from the ground. The hitch on the left indicates it is probably done with the handler on the left side, likely at the shoulder tapping the horse on the croup. Zonik is a dramatic mover, and we've seen in the past that he occasionally has slight rhythm irregularities to compensate. Since this was his debut at GP, I would expect the piaffe to mature over the next while.

Does anyone who watches competitive dressage know if these kinds of piaffes (in which the hinds hover) ever mature into "sitting" ones? I'm going to try to remember to follow this one to see where he goes from here, but it does seem like the hovering hinds are rewarded in all the gaits and movements, which makes me think that it's what they want? Or at least it's what's easiest to get from this type of horse, so they're willing to settle for it?

[Dresseur]

The problem is not the in hand work, it is the way that it is trained and the responses that are allowed all throughout training. The horses by and large simply do not sit behind, nor is that the focus. Watch the halt transitions of the horses on both center lines- not a one does not have the hocks in the tail.

And Kande, to answer your question, no, it does not change unless the training changes. And, the piaffe is one of those movements that when deviations creep in, it's incredibly hard to correct them.

You want a good, sitting piaffe? Trot/halt, trot/halt, trot/halt and focus on the haunches and whether or not the joints are folding and if there is flexibility developing in the LS joint. In hand work is a traditional way to start it- but without a laser focus on the hinds, the rhythm and the transitions, you get what you see in the video.

[kande50]

That's my feeling too, Dresseur, that competitive riders are not really interested in teaching their horses to sit behind because it's harder so takes longer, and if they can win without going to that trouble then why do it any differently?

In fact, I no longer even think of competitive dressage as incorrect while classical is correct, but think of them as two different styles of dressage. If we had reliable data that clearly showed that riding in the new competitive style damages more horses (which I think it probably does) then I'd be confident that competitive is incorrect, but until there's more of that kind of data then I'm trying to keep an open mind.

[Kathy Johnson]

Another reason riders don't focus on the horse sitting in the piaffe is that it makes it much harder to transition to passage and that transition is weighted heavily in the scoring. So a more horizontal piaffe will give you higher scores in the transitions.

The horse lifts his hind legs higher than the front, which truly is on the forehand. Gigolo used to do this, and it can be caused in part by riding the horse too deep and sometimes by over caning. Taps on the croup can cause the croup to hop up and down. Taps on the hind leg are sometimes used in one place to ask the horse to bend that leg and in another place to hold it longer.

Strength and sit in the piaffe can definitely be developed, but they have issues in rhythm that need to corrected before they worry too much about sit.