Reins and contact

[musical comedy]

Even Carl is critical of Charlotte arm. It is not considered the part of her riding to emulate. She rides well despite it not because of it. Jmho.

He's supposed to be some kind of authority? He mostly always rides with an arched back and tipped pelvis.

[kande50]

Which is probably because it's so hard to maintain a good position on a horse that's moving with lots of energy, but little collection. Just think how well these young, fit, athletic riders could sit if their horses were actually trained to collect.

[Tsavo]

"Short reins win medals."

Upthread, galopp said something about similarity to automatic releases in jumping. I thought that was a genius comment.

For me, the more forward my hand in physical space, the more I push my hand forward forward and the less chance of backward hand. It is counter-intuitive like most other things.

[kande50]

"Short reins win medals."

Upthread, galopp said something about similarity to automatic releases in jumping. I thought that was a genius comment.

For me, the more forward my hand in physical space, the more I push my hand forward forward and the less chance of backward hand. It is counter-intuitive like most other things.

Or round necks win medals.

What's so funny about it is that comps have become so much about training horses to do tricks that don't meet the directives, which is kind of ironic considering that "tricks" is the word that always been used to describe any training that kind of looks like Dressage, but isn't really.

I think the misunderstanding may be that many interpret "shorten the reins" to mean "shorten the reins without opening the elbow or leaning forward", which would actually mean "use shorter reins to put more pressure on the bit". And that's exactly what some trainers are looking for. But when some say that they're riding with a shorter rein they don't mean that they're pulling on the horse more, or requiring him to work in a shorter frame, but are just riding with a shorter rein without changing the amount of pressure they're using because they're just riding with their hands further forward.

[musical comedy]

"Short reins win medals."

Upthread, galopp said something about similarity to automatic releases in jumping. I thought that was a genius comment.

For me, the more forward my hand in physical space, the more I push my hand forward forward and the less chance of backward hand. It is counter-intuitive like most other things.

I'm not getting the correlation between jumping auto release and riding dressage with short reins. Except...just the other day I watched a minute or so of GP jumping. Those riders have some short reins, but obviously not restrictive, otherwise they would never be able to negotiate those courses.

Anyway, I'm trying not to keep repeating what I wrote earlier, but it's true that the shorter rein with forward thinking hand has less of a chance of becomming a backward hand. Photos Galopp and a couple others put up of odg's and SRS are on highly trained horses with the best riders of the time. That classical type of hand/arm position will result in failure when novice riders try to do it on greener horses. It's why so many are stuck at lower levels.

Kande, what you call pressure is what some of us call contact.

To add: If a rider can get the quality of work they want from riding with their arms a little forward, what is the problem with that???

[Tsavo]

The auto-release comment just evoked in me the feeling of forward hand following the contact. Everything... hand, contact, horse, energy is going forward. No sense of backward in anything involved. That is what I strive for. I don't get that vibe looking at pictures with hands in laps though I totally acknowledge the expert category those riders are in. They are just expert.

Hester has his arms forward in that photo you posted so maybe vertical upper arm is a goal for him and for Charlotte that remains unrealized.

I think if Kande felt a horse correctly in the bridal, she would find it impossible to describe that in the usual terms she uses. I would describe it as a teeming quantum flux with negative mass.

[musical comedy]

I think if Kande felt a horse correctly in the bridal, she would find it impossible to describe that in the usual terms she uses. I would describe it as a teeming quantum flux with negative mass.

I like Kande A LOT. However, I do not think she has ever felt correct contact.

[kande50]

Kande, what you call pressure is what some of us call contact.

Yes, one can't have contact without pressure, so pressure is just another way to describe it. After that we'd need to use modifiers to describe the contact, which of course, is not static.

[Tsavo]

What you might be missing is that the horse creates the contact that the rider filters. I think you are assuming it is the other way around. One person cannot achieve a correct handshake and in riding the horse must initiate. Another one of the million things that doesn't reduce to words is that it is the positive tone and intention of the rider's entire body that produces the inclination in the horse to create the contact that is then filtered by the rider. The main problem in describing dressage is that it all sounds roundabout and bullshit but that is how it seems to be at least to me. I don't think anyone can reason their way through it when it is all counter-intuitive feels. Once I embraced this I started making progress.

[kande50]

I like Kande A LOT. However, I do not think she has ever felt correct contact.

I think I have felt what *some* consider correct contact simply because I've ridden so many different horses with so many different instructors. I've also had many different instructors demonstrate to me what they believed was correct contact by holding the reins at the bit, having me resist with my hands from the saddle, and then "taking up a contact".

I don't believe I've ever had an instructor demo a contact that I'd ever be comfortable using, but that's because the only ones who want to demo "correct contact" were the ones that were convinced that what I was using was incorrect--while the ones that liked the contact I was already using felt no need to show me what they thought I should be doing because it was already consistent with what they would demo.

So based on my experiences so far, I'd say that the concept of correct contact varies wildly.

[kande50]

I think if Kande felt a horse correctly in the bridal, she would find it impossible to describe that in the usual terms she uses. I would describe it as a teeming quantum flux with negative mass.

I'm more into biology than physics.

[Tsavo]

It's like peristalsis with the horse and hand constantly moving forward together.

[demi]

Nice discussion! I think that we keep coming back to the idea that "one size" doesn't fit all. And since, like life, dressage is dynamic, we have to stay flexible in our thinking so as to keep all the differing thougts (well, most of them anyway) at our disposal so we can use them when the time is right.

I love the pictures. I try to remember these are just snap shots and don't show the whole picture. It's important to never lose sight of the bigger picture.

I think trying to describe rein/contact is hard, but Tsavo's comment about teeming quantum flux with negative mass made me realize that rein/contact is one of the simpler things in life to talk about

[demi]

It's like peristalsis with the horse and hand constantly moving forward together.

yes, and then there is reverse peristalsis. hiccups. maybe that's what some riders are doing

[Tsavo]

Nobody would describe correct contact purely as "pressure" just like a handshake does not connote "pressure".

[Chisamba]

Even Carl is critical of Charlotte arm. It is not considered the part of her riding to emulate. She rides well despite it not because of it. Jmho.

He's supposed to be some kind of authority? He mostly always rides with an arched back and tipped pelvis.

No, but he was at the time her trainer and teacher, and as such worked with her on her posture. They used to bicker quite a lot in public, hopefully in good humor, and this was one of the topics of discussion. quote;" Five years ago, Charlotte Dujardin was an aspiring jockey who had never even ridden a dressage horse. Then she asked Carl Hester for some help.
Hester, one of the country’s most successful horse trainers, was hardly short of youngsters looking for work and training in his Gloucestershire stables. But Dujardin, then barely 20, caught his eye and he took her under his wing." which information i am sure you already knew. If only perfect people became trainers there would be none.

i find it interesting that people keep posting pictures of horses in extended trot, touting that the elbow should be forward. Of course it is forward in extended gaits. Do you ride collected gaits and extended gaits with the same upper arm? The point or riding with a vertical upper arm in collected gaits is so that you can in fact give the arm forward for extension. How, might i genuinely ask, if you always ride with a forward arm, do you find room to give when you need to for extended gaits?

The horse and rider contact should be able to accommodate accordion like changes. As such, I have been taught by every instructor i ever rode with, that the vertical arm is desired to keep the horse more fully influenced by the core, in collected gaits, and the arm allows forward for either extended or medium gaits, or for release, or bascule, in walk and canter. There should, imho, be no bascule in trot. I did attend a clinic with a south american who insisted that i carry my hands forward, in the whole ride clinic it was the only thing he addressed. I remember commenting on it on the old udbb. Funny thing being at that time, "everyone" supported the vertical upper arm as ground zero. I guess it must have been before the Charlotte fad.

In my opinion the forward arm is a direct backlash against Gal who rode Totilas in a very vertical arm even in the extended gaits, and of course produced a false trot .


of the competitive riders i think Helen Langehanenberg and Damon Hill might show the middle ground between the two, Gal and Dujardin. Unfortunately the disagreement about finances and Damon Hill shortened her riding career on him. if you look at pictures on her you will see the vertical upper arm in the collected work and somewhat of a forward given elbow in the more extended gaits.


and more extended:


of course you will be able to find things to criticize about her seat too, even though she came from the Klimke "school" having worked with Ingrid too at some time.

I do not really expect any rider to be perfect, there was an SRS rider who was constantly mocked for his posture, who was able to achieve wonderful riding in his partnerships with the stallions.

tact and consistency stand for more than posture imho. when people insist a horse cannot be ridden without inside leg to outside rein i post a picture of a person without legs showing in dressage.

when a person claims that elbows have to be in a certain place to ride, i post a picture of a person with one arm riding dressage.

there really are no definitive methods. there are however tried and true methods that have stood the test of time and consistently produced the change of balance and partnership one idealizes in dressage. it is certainly easier to find the path by learning from generations of other riders than attempting to invent your own

[Tsavo]

In my gym work, I have noted that the key issue in the balance moves is to be able to keep the shoulder blades back and down. I think the way this effects an increase in balancing ability is this engages deep core muscles that otherwise are hard to consciously engage.

I think absent gym work, it is harder for people to keep the shoulder blades back and down with the arms extended a bit versus straight down. For someone like duJardin who works out like crazy, she has her shoulder blades PASTED back and down in any arm position in my opinion. She can ride any way she chooses because of this.

[Dresseur]

I try as much as possible to ride with my upper arm at the vertical, even on my green guy - to me, what is more important than upper arm position - is whether or not the shoulders are back and down - that is the deciding factor as to whether or not a rider can "hold" a horse to their back. I think even in later years when some of the odg started to hunch with age, they still are using their backs the same way. And, much of contact has to do with the push from behind and the horse yielding properly to the hh.

One thing that stood out to me, is that when I gather the reins, I slightly engage my core, which is a sign for the horse to gather themselves as well, I don't just touch the reins without some intention of forward energy. This is also why I'm not in love with flexions just standing about - I want there to be some forward energy that I can mold rather than just moving the head/neck around - that being said, I do absolutely want a softly mobile jaw - otherwise, you get have hard/dead feeling in the mouth, not the pliability that is essential for hh.

In any case, I'll circle back around to what I said in the beginning - contact is personal to the horse and rider teams, and while we can shoot for ideals, if you happen to have very short or very long arms, you have to adjust - as long as you are using your back properly and delivering horse to the hand and the horse is trained to stay soft in the jaw and elsewhere in it's body, I'm not going to quibble with an arm or hand that is a bit too far forward. Backwards, however, is backwards in my book, and is an indicator that the seat is not working - which is why I'm trying so hard to erradicate my elbows going slightly behind my hips in the up-phase of the canter stride.

Also, note that most times that you see riders with the elbows in front is in the extended trot - where you hold the shoulders back and down but advance the hand a bit.

[kande50]

It's like peristalsis with the horse and hand constantly moving forward together.

I get that sometimes, but it's usually when he starts rushing and comes against the bit.

IOW, just because it's peristaltic doesn't necessarily mean that it's a good contact, because as soon as he starts to get against the bit then all the other cues/aids have to become louder so that he can perceive them. But more importantly, it affects the way he moves, and not in a good way.

[demi]

Nobody would describe correct contact purely as "pressure" just like a handshake does not connote "pressure".

of course correct contact is not described as purely "pressure". But a hand shake CAN and does sometimes connote pressure, like Trump's handshake with Emmanuel Macron.

[galopp]

Imho a rider can never learn to really connect the seat to the hand if the upper arms do not function as part of the trunk.That does not meant that one does not allow bascule (in jumping with auto release, or in the following of the bascule in walk and and canter, or in going fdo). The more the upper arms are taken away from the vertical in trot, the more the rider will end up with body english (i.e. btv positions) to have effect.

As far as pressure of contact, it can be discussed about holding a feather vs a rock, but in any case the stability of holding a tray full of drinks at a part is a good analogy, they will splash if the tray is out in front; so with riding upper arms properly held allow for stability (as long as the trunk is balanced over movement rather than behind it). Or a xmas turkey which is very heavy will tire the arms if it is held out in front of the trunk, so the flacid upper arms allow the trunk to carry when it is closer to the body; so with horses the more vertical the upper arms, the more quiet they will be because they are relaxed. And the last issue is if a horse pulls against the upper arms which are beside the body, the rider will only sit deeper, if the upper arms are out in front the rider will end up being destabilized.

[Dresseur]

This is not necessarily the case

And the last issue is if a horse pulls against the upper arms which are beside the body, the rider will only sit deeper, if the upper arms are out in front the rider will end up being destabilized.

If your shoulders are not down and back, the horse can pull you out of position no matter where my arms are. It is not just the arm hanging vertically, it is also the shoulders not being soft and rounded. Think about what happens if the horse pulls against the upper arms - where are you resisting? If it is only the arms, not with the shoulders, you will be pulled forward. Or, you can keep your arm completely soft and resist with your shoulders and get the feeling that you are describing - where you sit deeper in the saddle. Shoulders are hugely, hugely important. You can all try this with a longe line acting as reins or around your waist either on the ground or on the horse. Soft shoulders, you will get pulled forward. Shoulders down and back, you can resist with soft arms.

[galopp]

Indeed, the shoulders down and back are part of that (just as in the photo of Waetjen with the reins in one hand dropped down) issue, but for sure any resistance to any loss of balance is the posture of the rider, not in the arms.

[kande50]

they will splash if the tray is out in front; so with riding upper arms properly held allow for stability (as long as the trunk is balanced over movement rather than behind it)

Which also means if the truck is not stable enough, or the horse is not able to adjust his balance well enough, then the horse is forced to absorb that instability in his mouth. And yes, I agree that holding the arms out in front even when there's minimal to no pressure on the bit can be tiring, but IMO, that's far better than using the horse's mouth as a shock absorber to camouflage losses of balance.

So IMO, stabilizing the arms along with the trunk is for more advanced horses and riders, which of course, just about everyone thinks they surely must be. :-/

[kande50]

Soft shoulders, you will get pulled forward. Shoulders down and back, you can resist with soft arms.

Ahh, but shoulders and arms can go from soft and following to down, back, and not-so-following in an instant, no matter where they start out.

[Dresseur]

Yes, and they absolutely should be able to do that - that imo is the cornerstone of a rider who has good connection with the horse, it's fluid. I don't ride with that amount of back engagement at all times, but I need to be ready to absorb any resistance or loss of balance or whatever, and I do that with my shoulders and core support, not by contracting my biceps. All I'm saying is that if you try to resist with the arms only - no matter how good your position is, you will get pulled forward. It also changes the quality of the contact from one of pulling to one of passive resistance and keeps the hands and arms mobile. We want mobile jaws in the horses, we should strive to stay mobile as well so that we are not unintentionally locking or freezing against the horse.

[demi]

Soft shoulders, you will get pulled forward. Shoulders down and back, you can resist with soft arms.

Ahh, but shoulders and arms can go from soft and following to down, back, and not-so-following in an instant, no matter where they start out.

I agree. I like the shoulders back and down, strong core, upper arms vertical, but that is the ideal and not necessarily always the case. Again, one size doesn't fit all. I was thinking it's kind of like a four speed manual transmission. On a big old farm truck your arm covers a wide area shifting through the gears. But in a little sports car, you can almost shift through all the gears without moving more than your little finger. An exaggeration, but you get the picture.

A young or less trained horse requires that you move your arms forward some times because their "gears" are so far apart. But then in that situation the rider "goes with it" and in an instant goes back to the ideal position.

[demi]

DeKunffy has an exercise that can sometimes have a great effect on getting a horse more connected through the reins. This will be hard to explain and would better on video. But the rider, in the vertical upper arm position, alternates pulling his shoulders back. Left, right , left, right, etc. Not a harsh movement and fairly quick. The hands aren't pulling back but the horse can feel it in the rider's hands and even more so in the seat. It can be done more or less dramatically. I'll look to see if I can find it explained somewhere, maybe even youtube.

[demi]

One thing that stood out to me, is that when I gather the reins, I slightly engage my core, which is a sign for the horse to gather themselves as well, I don't just touch the reins without some intention of forward energy. This is also why I'm not in love with flexions just standing about - I want there to be some forward energy that I can mold rather than just moving the head/neck around - that being said, I do absolutely want a softly mobile jaw - otherwise, you get have hard/dead feeling in the mouth, not the pliability that is essential for hh.

I like this. I also slightly engage my core as I gather the reins, but even when I'm on a mounting block, the ground in effect, I slightly engage my core as I gather the reins and prepare to mount. The horse can feel that slight engagement of my core even before I get on. It's a different quality in the rein that he feels from me than when i just hold the reins casually when I'm standing on the ground.

[musical comedy]

i find it interesting that people keep posting pictures of horses in extended trot, touting that the elbow should be forward. Of course it is forward in extended gaits.

Well, I just post the first ones I find. I can find many of all the bnt's with hands forward and even SRS people. Here's one of Carl not in extension.

How, might i genuinely ask, if you always ride with a forward arm, do you find room to give when you need to for extended gaits?

Chisamba, I don't think anyone is advocating a straight arm. I think everyone agrees on an elbow angle. My point is that it doesn't have to be that sharp 45 degree angle. Especially my feeling is that the reins should not be at the pommel. As far as extended gaits, I think some people that are currently riding around with the draped long reins will never be able to experience the feeling of extended trot because they never have their horses connected properly. If someone has never ridden a horse to the level of collection where they can do an extended trot, then how can they possibly have a good understanding of contact?

This Helen Langehanenberg photo below that you say has a vertical upper arm, I don't think it is. It is slightly forward.

[Dresseur]

This is a picture that everyone can agree is exemplary... He has brought his weight back a bit and the arm is slightly forward.
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/or ... 3a317f.jpg

Nuno - also in piaffe - arm slightly forward - shoulders back and down even as his head is tipped forward https://image.slidesharecdn.com/frenchd ... 1433166779

One handed, you can see the elbow on the other side, hand is extended a bit forward. https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/73 ... 86cc59.jpg

Again, the thing they all have in common is the shoulders.

[Ryeissa]

When Ross’ reins got long as she schooled the flying changes, Dujardin said, “Sheryl, I’ll let you in on a little secret. Short reins win gold medals.”

^^^ this is the context, its not that big of a deal!

http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/sho ... win-medals

[Srhorselady]

As several people have mentioned there are several variables: horse conformation and level of training, also rider conformation and level of training. I think what we are all talking about is the neutral riding position that is at the "core" of our riding. We are probably talking about a 2 degree angle or 2 inch difference in shoulder position at most. Every rider moves their hands, arms, legs to give aides. How much they move depends on what is being asked for, the level of horse training, and the riders level of experience and sometimes the riders conformation. It took me quite a while to figure out why so many different people described the physical aides for a half halt so differently. It may only be a closing of fingers or shrug of a shoulder by an experienced rider on an upper level horse, but that definitely DOES NOT work for a low level rider on a green horse. From my own recent experience with the dragon on my trail ride the length of the rein also varies depending on some of the same variables, however the most important variable in my experience was that after the dragon Mariano was in front of my leg. Prior to the dragon I could feel his mouth but he was definitely not in front of my leg. Although he is now retired Mariano was once an upper level horse so with increased hind activity he raised his withers and I NEEDED to ride with shorter reins although the contact remained the same. So I would suggest that if the horse is in front of the leg it is necessary to ride with shorter reins although the contact "weight" might remain the same. I would also suggest that the more highly trained the horse the shorter the rein since they are arguably lighter in the shoulder than a horse with less training. What do you all think?

[Tsavo]

Uta Graf is PERFECT.

[kande50]

When Ross’ reins got long as she schooled the flying changes, Dujardin said, “Sheryl, I’ll let you in on a little secret. Short reins win gold medals.”

^^^ this is the context, its not that big of a deal!

http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/sho ... win-medals

I'm pretty sure I first read it here as something Hilda Guerney said in a clinic?

[StraightForward]

I don't remember Hilda saying exactly that, but I did audit the clinic SueB rode in, where she said that almost everyone in the US rides with too-long reins.

[Ryeissa]

When Ross’ reins got long as she schooled the flying changes, Dujardin said, “Sheryl, I’ll let you in on a little secret. Short reins win gold medals.”

^^^ this is the context, its not that big of a deal!

http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/sho ... win-medals

I'm pretty sure I first read it here as something Hilda Guerney said in a clinic?

I have only heard in this context (CD) but the problem of letting the reins get too long in the canter work at FEI is very common.

[Sue B]

Hilda was relaying what CD said in the Masters clinic that she, Hilda, attended that spring.

Ever since then, I have been mindful of rein length and shorten the reins when I am sneaking my hands back or breaking at the wrist or sticking my elbows out like chicken wings. Shortening the reins and keeping elbows just ahead of my hips, for me, encourages my horse to seek the contact and stay in front of the vertical. Perhaps it is my conformation, in addition to his, that makes it work for us.

[demi]

[quote="Sue B"....... I have been mindful of rein length and shorten the reins when I am sneaking my hands back or breaking at the wrist or sticking my elbows out like chicken wings. Shortening the reins and keeping elbows just ahead of my hips, for me, encourages my horse to seek the contact and stay in front of the vertical. ...[/quote]

I like this. And will also try to keep it in mind. I do all those things at times, sneak my hands back, break at the wrist, stick my elbows out like chicken wings, and I also lift my hands up too high...so I need to notice when I do this and remember that it's probably because my reins are too long. And that doesn't necessarily mean that they are WAY too long, but long enough that I am trying to compensate somehow. I have a tendency to over correct sometimes and I need to be aware of that when I shorten then reins, not to over shorten.

[Sue B]

Yeah, we're talking maybe an inch, sometimes less. And it doesn't mean that several strides later I won't let reins slip a little either--it is an ongoing conversation, dynamic not static.

[kande50]

Hilda was relaying what CD said in the Masters clinic that she, Hilda, attended that spring.

Ever since then, I have been mindful of rein length and shorten the reins when I am sneaking my hands back or breaking at the wrist or sticking my elbows out like chicken wings. Shortening the reins and keeping elbows just ahead of my hips, for me, encourages my horse to seek the contact and stay in front of the vertical. Perhaps it is my conformation, in addition to his, that makes it work for us.

I think I may have misunderstood what she meant, as I was reading it as "shorten your reins so that you can get your horse even more against the bit", rather than "shorten you reins and ride with a more open elbow". Or maybe she didn't mean either of those interpretations?