July/August Perspiration and Progress Thread

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Chisamba
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Re: July/August Perspiration and Progress Thread

Postby Chisamba » Thu Jul 27, 2017 12:28 pm

Flight, I love your photos, admire your journey, and wish you well with your recovery.

I think as an older wiser person, the thing I strive for more, and admire more in others is just enough confidence to go forward, and just a tiny bit of uncertainty, enough to be open minded.

Dresseur, who has confidently expounded on the perfect position at almost every opportunity on ddbb discovered that balance must be given priority. Dresseur, forgive me for using you as an example, but it demonstrates such a positive learning curve in my opinion.

I have over this past decade realized that balance of the rider, balancing the horse and balance in life is the element from which most positive progress emanates.

It is simple, but acquiring it can be less simple.

Is it forward into contact, is it posture before forward,

If you have better balance and seat independence with less perfect posture, ride in better balance and screw posture.

At times I have had to get up at three in the morning to ride at four am before school or work. Now I work nights so I can ride teach and train during the day.

Balancing life, and horses, and riding in balance is different for every one of us. I just enjoy seeing others succeed. It's refreshing and inspiring.

I have left other groups and boards because they suck you into negatives and critism. I was there. Hyper critical and over confident. It's a bit too easy to be a bitch online. And then it follows you around irl. Thank you for bearing with me as I have improved.

Both riding, in position, and in life

So my goals for the remainder of summer... Better balance.

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Re: July/August Perspiration and Progress Thread

Postby musical comedy » Thu Jul 27, 2017 12:49 pm

Chisamba wrote:I have over this past decade realized that balance of the rider, balancing the horse and balance in life is the element from which most positive progress emanates.

It is simple, but acquiring it can be less simple.

Is it forward into contact, is it posture before forward,

If you have better balance and seat independence with less perfect posture, ride in better balance and screw posture.

I'm not sure I totally understand what you're saying above regarding balance. Are you saying 'screw posture' so long as you can balance
yourself and your horse? If so, I would agree.

My feeling is that it would be wonderful if all riders were able to have positions like Dressuer. The thing is, imo, that for most to get that position, you need to be supervised regularly until it becomes habit. Also, you need a horse that will put up with you while you are learning and become unbalanced. If you start training horses or riding green horses before you acquired the perfect position, it is difficult if not impossible to learn it while trying to ride horses that have problems.

Also, there is no doubt in my mind that rider conformation plays a huge role in our position. Some just cannot have the perfect one.

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Re: July/August Perspiration and Progress Thread

Postby Dresseur » Thu Jul 27, 2017 1:02 pm

MC, you are of course forgiven, and I really appreciate your sentiments and way of thinking.

I may be misunderstanding slightly because I think this balance issue is related to position... Or are you saying balance of the horse must be given priority? (If so, yes, I agree, even if my position is very good - if I can't affect the balance of the horse, tough shit for me :lol:

So, yes, I strive for perfect position, or at least as perfect as I can get to it, and I've been working on it for years. And through that position, I can better balance myself and influence the horse and expend less effort doing so. But then, technique, timing, feel for how much or little power, quickness, bend and a million other things come into play to create the overall balance. So, I actually think that this latest issue on my part is a positional fault that I've uncovered, and once I figure it out, I'll be better able to influence the horse.

Flight, I love the video - so great to see such progress in both Ding and your riding! In terms of your question, no, I haven't figured it out quite yet. It's not visible to the naked eye until the tempis - so, I have to experiment and feel what I've doing and feel how what I'm changing affects the horse. So, I don't know if I'm pushing the horses over on the left, or letting horses drift through the left because I'm letting go somewhere. I have scoliosis, so part of me wonders if this isn't a part of that. But, taking an educated guess, I THINK that I'm allowing horses to drift left - so I think that I need to firm up my right side because I think that I'm allowing my right hip to drop slightly. So, do I think pull myself over to the left or do I think firm up the right? I don't know yet. I'm riding Fri and Sat and I'll have plenty to play on to try to get closer to figure this out.

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Re: July/August Perspiration and Progress Thread

Postby musical comedy » Thu Jul 27, 2017 1:10 pm

Dresseur wrote:I may be misunderstanding slightly because I think this balance issue is related to position... Or are you saying balance of the horse must be given priority? (If so, yes, I agree, even if my position is very good - if I can't affect the balance of the horse, tough shit for me :lol:
I was trying to understand what Chisamba meant. I think that a rider can be balanced enough to ride a horse well without being in textbook position. Things like for example rounded shoulders, leg too far foward/back, high/low hands, heels not down, all all kinds of things like that. You see it all the time at the top of the sport. Often you have to get in a funky position temporarily to help the horse.

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Re: July/August Perspiration and Progress Thread

Postby Chisamba » Thu Jul 27, 2017 3:03 pm

Yes MC, I was trying to say that a rider can be in balance, and of independent seat, and influence the balance of a horse without being in perfect posture.

Yes there are conformation aspects, injury aspects, age related changes but priorities to balance and independence of seat are in my opinion, more critical than perfect position.

Horses reward consistency, so if you are always slightly chair seat, and not stiff, and not holding with. Your leg or hand to maintain posture, they will reward you in positive responses

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Re: July/August Perspiration and Progress Thread

Postby kande50 » Thu Jul 27, 2017 7:03 pm

I don't think the rider's posture even needs to be all that good, as long as the less than ideal posture doesn't interfere with delivering aids that the horse can recognize.

If great posture was a necessity then all those old farts who can barely totter to the horse wouldn't be able to ride circles around less experienced riders with close to perfect posture. And IMO, the reason for that is that tact and timing are so much more important than posture.

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Re: July/August Perspiration and Progress Thread

Postby Ryeissa » Thu Jul 27, 2017 7:46 pm

kande50 wrote:I don't think the rider's posture even needs to be all that good, as long as the less than ideal posture doesn't interfere with delivering aids that the horse can recognize.


absoultely disagree. The way the pelvis sits and the alignment always will throw the horse off, and hinder freedom of movement.

Some are better at others than covering this up, but it ALWAYS matters. Course I study biomechanics.

I did it all wrong many years, a true understanding of joints, bones, muscles and anatomy was what I needed to really get somewhere, though every ride I am still learning. 99% of the work is on ME as a rider. The horse trains itself when the rider is balanced and has the correct tone.

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Re: July/August Perspiration and Progress Thread

Postby Ryeissa » Thu Jul 27, 2017 7:49 pm

Flight amazing progress! super work.

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Re: July/August Perspiration and Progress Thread

Postby Ryeissa » Thu Jul 27, 2017 7:54 pm

.
Last edited by Ryeissa on Sun Sep 08, 2019 3:37 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: July/August Perspiration and Progress Thread

Postby demi » Thu Jul 27, 2017 9:22 pm

Riot is using himself very nicely! Good job. He's a pretty boy, too!

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Re: July/August Perspiration and Progress Thread

Postby Ryeissa » Thu Jul 27, 2017 10:10 pm

demi wrote:Riot is using himself very nicely! Good job. He's a pretty boy, too!


thanks Demi!!!! that is nice to hear

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Re: July/August Perspiration and Progress Thread

Postby Flight » Thu Jul 27, 2017 11:34 pm

Interesting discussion perfect position with balance and how the horse goes. I think people's body conformation can help/interfere with that too and certainly the leaner, long legged type can look much more elegant on a horse. But you can see horses going really well even with less than perfect rider position.
Nice pics Ryeissa! Looks nice and balanced. One of the difficulties I have with my big horse is getting a balanced stretch (especially for competitions where they really want to see a big difference) because he's not yet that well balanced.

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Re: July/August Perspiration and Progress Thread

Postby Chisamba » Thu Jul 27, 2017 11:49 pm

Ryeissa wrote:
kande50 wrote:I don't think the rider's posture even needs to be all that good, as long as the less than ideal posture doesn't interfere with delivering aids that the horse can recognize.


absoultely disagree. The way the pelvis sits and the alignment always will throw the horse off, and hinder freedom of movement.

Some are better at others than covering this up, but it ALWAYS matters. Course I study biomechanics.

I did it all wrong many years, a true understanding of joints, bones, muscles and anatomy was what I needed to really get somewhere, though every ride I am still learning. 99% of the work is on ME as a rider. The horse trains itself when the rider is balanced and has the correct tone.


Ed gal rode totilas with his saddle sloped downhill, and with his legs forward and with his pelvis tipped. Now one might argue that Totilas is not the best example of a horse going well, but he is a gold medal winner and a world champion, so Gal's tipped pelvis could not have been interfering with the horse to the exclusion of his winning.

Image

this is NOT a criticism of Gal it is something i noticed about his posture while i was admiring his seat, and helped me realize that few top riders have perfect positions.

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Re: July/August Perspiration and Progress Thread

Postby Chisamba » Thu Jul 27, 2017 11:58 pm

Bereiter Lauscha of the SRS was oft criticized for not having an ideal position but i saw that man ride, and he could really ride beautifully.

Image

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Re: July/August Perspiration and Progress Thread

Postby Chisamba » Fri Jul 28, 2017 12:00 am

anyway, i do not want to waste a lot of time, nor be overly negative in criticizing the seats of people who ride better than me, i just want to explain how i came to the opinion that independence of hand and leg,and balance of seat, can be more influential to a horse than perfect posture.

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Re: July/August Perspiration and Progress Thread

Postby musical comedy » Fri Jul 28, 2017 12:44 am

Flight wrote:I've thought about getting a nice fancy trained WB (or I'd really like a lusitano) but reality is I can't afford it and you really do have to be a good enough rider to ride the bloody thing! :D
Baloney! I don't give out compliments unless I really mean them, and Ding is one fine horse! I would love to have him. I'm sure he isn't easy as no horse really is, but when I see how freely he moves and compare it to the Mac Truck I ride, I get really envious.

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Re: July/August Perspiration and Progress Thread

Postby khall » Fri Jul 28, 2017 12:57 am

Sounds like everyone is in agreement for the most part that a perfect seat is not the end all be all in riding. I agree and will add it is not just the balance of the rider but also the feel and timing of the aids which is so important. Feel for me is the biggest component of what makes a good rider.

Flight that is an awesome progression of Ding! Really incredible to see how correct work makes the horse even more beautiful. I sure hope your knee comes along quicker than they think and hope you are able to manage the pain.

Rye, nice job! Riot is looking good there.

I have a question for all: do any of you or have any of you spent much time on a lunge line working on your seat? It is not something I have done very much over my riding career, not had that much opportunity to do so. While in Spain we had a couple of lunge lessons, I found them fun but not all that challenging. The most challenging exercise was looking up and then closing your eyes while trotting, whoa that was disorienting! Have any of you found it helpful?

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Re: July/August Perspiration and Progress Thread

Postby Ryeissa » Fri Jul 28, 2017 3:06 am

I find "demonstrations" more helpful than longe lessons, though of course that is awesome, too.

When I feel what the desired result is, I usually have many breakthorughts- for example my trainer as the "horse" taking the end of the rein that generally brings a lot of "ah ha" insights that i can reproduce. I think I am much more of a kinestitic learner-- ie- have me feel once what is desired and ask me to recreate it on my own. Sometimes I look like I grasp a concept, from the ground but I'm not quite there. For example, I have very good arm placement but I had way too much tension in my wrists. So the posture looks good, but it's not functional. When I felt the desired looseness via demonstration it led to real insights.

JMHO

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Re: July/August Perspiration and Progress Thread

Postby Flight » Fri Jul 28, 2017 3:56 am

musical comedy wrote:
Flight wrote:I've thought about getting a nice fancy trained WB (or I'd really like a lusitano) but reality is I can't afford it and you really do have to be a good enough rider to ride the bloody thing! :D
Baloney! I don't give out compliments unless I really mean them, and Ding is one fine horse! I would love to have him. I'm sure he isn't easy as no horse really is, but when I see how freely he moves and compare it to the Mac Truck I ride, I get really envious.



LOL thanks MC! I do like reading your comments because you don't sugar coat and you do make me think of different perspectives.
Ding is a nice horse, but I bought him as a cheap-ish part bred weanling because he was a boy and had a cute muzzle!!! :roll: :roll: :D :D

Khall, no I haven't done any lunge work since I was a kid learning. Interesting to hear that you didn't find them that challenging. I'd say once you're quite balanced in the saddle, that it may not be that hard? I've done a bit of no stirrup riding.

There was that analysis video done between Edward Gal's riding and Matthias Rath's which was very interesting. That Gal's timing and balance was excellent. Did anyone else see that?

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Re: July/August Perspiration and Progress Thread

Postby kande50 » Fri Jul 28, 2017 10:11 am

Chisamba wrote:few top riders have perfect positions.


If posture mattered that much then people like Blixen-Feineke, George Morris, Phillip Karl, Nuno, etc. wouldn't be able to get on a horse and do a better job with him than the rider with much better posture who just got off. IMO, skill is what matters the most, and part of becoming a skillful rider is learning how to balance a less than perfect body on top of a horse so that the horse can better understand what the rider wants.

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Re: July/August Perspiration and Progress Thread

Postby Chisamba » Fri Jul 28, 2017 11:47 am

OK, back to the perspiration, yesterday I was hacking out after our work and a black bear yearling came galloping out of the bush to what felt like six inches off Kimba. Basically shoulder. I could have touched it with my foot.

It screeched to a halt and looked at us with big eyes. Kimba walk extended canter transition was very smooth and powerful as we were at A of the outdoor before I had arranged my aids sufficiently to circle. After a few circles a safe distance from the youngster, and a few minutes of walk, we decided to march back to the indoor.

I honestly think the dressage training helped me and her overcome the fierce startle.

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Re: July/August Perspiration and Progress Thread

Postby Ryeissa » Fri Jul 28, 2017 1:41 pm

I happen to not like how Totalis was going, he always looked like a horse chopped in half. Talented, yes, but not fluid. Hard to say why, could be the deep riding, EG is one of the most talented riders, so maybe he had/has enough super talent to over-ride the saddle balance. I'm also talking about us normal folk, not the olympians.

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Re: July/August Perspiration and Progress Thread

Postby piedmontfields » Fri Jul 28, 2017 1:53 pm

khall wrote: I have a question for all: do any of you or have any of you spent much time on a lunge line working on your seat?


Yes! I had several years (maybe 5 years) of lessons where we did regular lunge seat work---this was early on in my introduction a balanced seat and dressage. Remember, I started riding at age 30, so I was very motivated to learn how to ride properly---and not fall off! :lol: I have always found lunge lessons really helpful, as it gives me the chance to separate out body parts more thoroughly than I can sometimes manage when riding. My current horse is very good on the lunge and I have had a some lessons on her, too, where I was able to pin point some necessary changes--like just how much I need to let go in my thighs/hips for her to really move out. I would actually find it useful to do this more frequently--and I've offered Emi as a lunge horse for others to work on their seat. I do think it is incredibly important to have a safe, well-trained, well-balanced horse for lunge lessons----other wise, things can really be unpleasant for all.

An old instructor of mine had this lovely hyper sensitive Hanoverian mare. I used to call her the "riding therapist" because she felt and reacted to everything in my seat! It was so helpful to learn from her and she was excellent on the lunge. Off lunge, I was barely skilled enough to trot her around the arena! :lol:

IMO, the lunge seat work and riding schoolmasters (who were ahead of me, but not so far ahead that I couldn't communicate with them) were the best things I've done for my riding education.

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Re: July/August Perspiration and Progress Thread

Postby piedmontfields » Fri Jul 28, 2017 1:55 pm

Chisamba wrote:OK, back to the perspiration, yesterday I was hacking out after our work and a black bear yearling came galloping out of the bush to what felt like six inches off Kimba. Basically shoulder. I could have touched it with my foot. ..I honestly think the dressage training helped me and her overcome the fierce startle.


Wowza. Benefits of dressage training indeed! We tend to limit our close encounters to deer and turkey...

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Re: July/August Perspiration and Progress Thread

Postby kande50 » Fri Jul 28, 2017 5:15 pm

piedmontfields wrote:Wowza. Benefits of dressage training indeed! We tend to limit our close encounters to deer and turkey...


We passed the neighborhood bear last weekend, and my mule recognized it as different and didn't want to take his eyes off it.

The horse we were with didn't care, nor have any of the horses I used to trail ride. But then, I've never come all that close to a bear either, as they've always either been at a distance or have taken off for the next county as soon as they saw us. Someone's feeding the current bear though, so he's way too tame, which will probably be the end of him this fall when bear season opens.

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Re: July/August Perspiration and Progress Thread

Postby khall » Fri Jul 28, 2017 6:10 pm

chisamba good grief I'm sure that was exciting! Good girl Kimba!

I think the reason I found the lunge lesson not so challenging is I have ridden many a mile bareback and still will today, on the right horse! Rip, no, not even big on dropping my stirrups on him, lol! He is big, wide and can be a spook. Gaila I will ride bareback even though she is shaped like a drum, but much shorter (15.2/16.2) and much easier gaits to ride. Gallie I will ride bareback a good bit just because I find it fun. I can do all bareback that I do with a saddle. You cannot have tension or be unbalanced and ride bareback. It just will not work, you have to move with the horse.

Really interesting discussion though.

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Re: July/August Perspiration and Progress Thread

Postby Ryeissa » Fri Jul 28, 2017 7:37 pm

I can't stay on my horse with a saddle, no thanks to the bareback :) I find I also get sloppy when I ride bareback, the balance is different. JMHO

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Re: July/August Perspiration and Progress Thread

Postby musical comedy » Fri Jul 28, 2017 7:48 pm

Ryeissa wrote:I can't stay on my horse with a saddle, no thanks to the bareback :) I find I also get sloppy when I ride bareback, the balance is different. JMHO
:lol: You're probably kidding, but I truly need that saddle and stirrups. For one thing, I could not even get on my horse bareback.

I rode bareback once in my life. It was 1990. I was boarding at a place that had a gymkhana. I joined in the 'fun' (note the word). My horse at the time was a 16.3h very wide home bred TB. She had a flat pony trot and a balanced canter. I was participating in ride-a-buck. I kept the dollar under my leg until the canter depart, and then my looseness lost the dollar.

Sometime in the 80's, I had probably a couple weeks lessons on the lunge with a horse I owned. I guess I enjoyed it, but it didn't do anything for my faults. I think it is wonderful to learn to ride on the lunge BEFORE you acquire bad faults. Years of bad faults are hard to break.

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Re: July/August Perspiration and Progress Thread

Postby piedmontfields » Fri Jul 28, 2017 8:48 pm

I really think lunge work (in a saddle) is different from riding bareback, and it offers insight to different feelings and patterns.

Unlike the folks here who have ridden since childhood and have lots of "seat memories", I actually learned to ride as an adult. Even just a year in I had some bad habits and patterns. A lot of lunge lessons took that apart fairly quickly. As I became a more balanced and competent rider, I found that lunge seat work was helpful when getting used to a new horse or trying to improve a challenge area. It is also a great test of whether you are too reliant on hands instead of seat aids. I first learned coordination of aids with footfalls on the lunge line (probably with my eyes closed).

I find bareback riding great for building overall awareness of balance and feeling of the footfalls, and also building confidence. However, it really doesn't improve my dressage seat! I ride less bareback now in part because although I have a "dumpy-round pony-ish mare", she is not that comfortable for me bareback (big wither). It is also *really hilly* where I live, so I'm less into hacking bareback than I used to be. MC, I used to be able to swing onto short horses bareback; now I use a mounting block designed for 18h horses!!

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Re: July/August Perspiration and Progress Thread

Postby musical comedy » Fri Jul 28, 2017 8:59 pm

I don't like the lack of control when being lunged. I mean the loss of having reins and being dependent on the lunger. I suppose it is a trust issue, more of the lunger than of the horse. It's just that horse can for any reason misbehave, I feel I can control that better with my reins than a lunger can on the line. The key is to have a good lunging horse. Mine wouldn't be. Also, I think I've already said that I don't like the idea of horses going round and round and round in a circle. It isn't good for their limbs. jmo.

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Re: July/August Perspiration and Progress Thread

Postby Chisamba » Fri Jul 28, 2017 10:08 pm

talking about balance, this is a rider i greatly admire, Stinne Tange Kaastrup i am just sharing because i admire her tremendously.

Image

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Re: July/August Perspiration and Progress Thread

Postby Chisamba » Fri Jul 28, 2017 10:09 pm

I do ride bareback and I do take longe lessons from time to time, it is difficult to find a really good lunger ( person) for lessons, many allow the horse to fall in on the line, or go too on the forehand, making the riding less useful. However i give lunge lessons and try to have lunge lessons, i have taught my son to longe me, and he does not tell me what to do, he just allows me to look in the mirror and work on myself, although he will give in put from time to time.

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Re: July/August Perspiration and Progress Thread

Postby Ryeissa » Sat Jul 29, 2017 3:28 am

Yes, chisamba- I admire her quite a bit! Very inspirational

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Re: July/August Perspiration and Progress Thread

Postby Tsavo » Sat Jul 29, 2017 3:40 am

This thread is chock full of interesting comments.

I just want to add another perspective on the balance - position issue... two observations:

1. it took about 2 years in the gym working on the muscles to pull my shoulder blades back and down to the point where that is now my default, and
2. while doing the various balancing exercises in the gym, I discovered that while they were extremely hard if not impossible without bringing my shoulder blades back and down, they became easy and solid immediately every time I pulled my shoulder blades back and down. I am talking real time... raise my shoulder blades and I can't do the balancing work... the next rep I lower them I am solid like a statue. It's a gimmick as opposed to some talent. I think elite riders have a bag full of these gimmicks in addition to any talent. I also suspect I prefer gimmicks of this type to the hope of talent.

So my experience is that the better position w.r.t. shoulders ALSO produces an automatic exquisite increase in ability of balance the body on a BOSU or on a horse. I believe the mechanism is not that those muscles are built up to pull the shoulder blades but rather when those muscles are engaged pulling the blades, there is a concomitant engagement of certain core muscles when pulling the blades that is the actual reason the balance is improved.

Now the shoulder blade position is also required for correct contact so correct position serves that and balance.

With respect to the lower body, correct position just makes things clearer to my horse. And I have access to more gimmicks. So with shoulder-hip-heel alignment, I suddenly can halt or back my horse just by engaging my hamstrings. Gimmick. :-)

I wish some elite rider would write a book about these types of things so amateurs can cut to the chase.
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Re: July/August Perspiration and Progress Thread

Postby Tsavo » Sat Jul 29, 2017 3:50 am

I also agree with the comments about riding versus training. I have ridden upper level movements on upper level horses and that was fun. But the real fun for me was taking my horse who was not trained properly and finally teaching him and me to get him correctly in the bridle and the muscling proves the point. And using my fitness level and gimmicks to finally have some ground to stand on to advance.

I was overdoing the lessons and not taking enough time to practice and experiment. I thought enough lessons were sufficient. I was wrong. It was only after I cut back on the lessons and had to work on my own more that I was able to teach myself how to ride and train. And it was only when I just had me talking to myself that I was able to improve my mental focus. That was as big a hurdle as the physical stuff. FOCUS.

Of course I needed those bazillion lessons to be able to even try to work on my own so I am not claiming I am self taught. I am saying I mainly started really learning from what I was taught when I was practicing and experimenting much much much more with the targets given me in the lessons.

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Re: July/August Perspiration and Progress Thread

Postby demi » Sat Jul 29, 2017 3:51 am

Veeeery interesting, Tsavo.

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Re: July/August Perspiration and Progress Thread

Postby Flight » Sat Jul 29, 2017 6:29 am

Tsavo wrote:It was only after I cut back on the lessons and had to work on my own more that I was able to teach myself how to ride and train. And it was only when I just had me talking to myself that I was able to improve my mental focus. That was as big a hurdle as the physical stuff. FOCUS.

Of course I needed those bazillion lessons to be able to even try to work on my own so I am not claiming I am self taught. I am saying I mainly started really learning from what I was taught when I was practicing and experimenting much much much more with the targets given me in the lessons.


I always have to go home and do my 'homework' after a lesson. I'm never quite prepared to come back until I've worked through it a bit on my own. I seem to need the time by myself to work it out.

Tsavo, interesting too because I was just having a similar conversation with a friend who is newish to dressage (but has been riding for years) that once you get the right position, you don't have to use a tonne of strength in your core to keep you there. Yes, you need some but they seem to get activated once you sit right.

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Re: July/August Perspiration and Progress Thread

Postby musical comedy » Sat Jul 29, 2017 11:46 am

With respect to the shoulders being back (and down), if one has lordosis and a dowager hump like me, it is counter-productive; just hollows the back more.

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Re: July/August Perspiration and Progress Thread

Postby Tsavo » Sat Jul 29, 2017 11:58 am

musical comedy wrote:With respect to the shoulders being back (and down), if one has lordosis and a dowager hump like me, it is counter-productive; just hollows the back more.


I agree with this. Lordosis is a very big impediment to correctly using the lower back and anything you can do to be able to flatten the lower back when you need to is necessarily going to be better than any classical equitation. I hope you have gimmicks to deal with that. :-)

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Re: July/August Perspiration and Progress Thread

Postby Tsavo » Sat Jul 29, 2017 12:20 pm

Flight wrote:
Tsavo wrote:It was only after I cut back on the lessons and had to work on my own more that I was able to teach myself how to ride and train. And it was only when I just had me talking to myself that I was able to improve my mental focus. That was as big a hurdle as the physical stuff. FOCUS.

Of course I needed those bazillion lessons to be able to even try to work on my own so I am not claiming I am self taught. I am saying I mainly started really learning from what I was taught when I was practicing and experimenting much much much more with the targets given me in the lessons.


I always have to go home and do my 'homework' after a lesson. I'm never quite prepared to come back until I've worked through it a bit on my own. I seem to need the time by myself to work it out.

Tsavo, interesting too because I was just having a similar conversation with a friend who is newish to dressage (but has been riding for years) that once you get the right position, you don't have to use a tonne of strength in your core to keep you there. Yes, you need some but they seem to get activated once you sit right.


Well I was taking three lessons a week for a year and then years and years of two lessons a week. That cuts down on the practice time.

There is a round about nature of this stuff in that working on the shoulder blade muscles really is building the core. Now I do plenty of core work so it is hard for me to sort out how much that helps and how much the "referred" core work helps in general. But at least in terms of balance, I think there is no amount of straight core work that will be as good as the shoulder blade trick for engaging the core.

The thing about activating certain muscles seems important but other than S. von Dietze, not many people talk about it. And I will have to re-read her book but I am not sure even she mentions the two items I did in terms of the gimmicky nature. I am coming to believe that "talent" might largely be just enough gimmicks strung together and that if you knew the gimmicks ahead of time you could progress much quicker.

The gimmicks literally make riding go from difficult to easy in one second. Of course it took two years to build those shoulder blade muscles so that was far from instantaneous.

Just to throw this out there, when I started working with a personal gym trainer, I told him I needed to work on three things, should blades back and down, open hip angle, and core. It is amazing how an experienced person can deliver targeted results like he has. There are exercises that when I do them they instantly remind me of riding in terms of recruitment of specific muscles or relaxation of other muscles or isolation of body parts. I had the shoulder blade - balance epiphany on a BOSU when I was struggling and then didn't struggle literally on the next rep. I now spend much more per month on my gym trainer than I do on my riding trainer and am progressing faster in riding than I have ever done before.

You don't have to become a gym rat, though. Just enough to be able to do the gimmicks. I disagree even with elite riders if they say riding is a very demanding/physical sport (assuming you are in shape). Compared to my gym workouts which I choose to take to the edge of exhaustion for other health reasons, I told my trainer I can't even count riding as exercise even though I ride 5 day a week because I am not doing much during the riding. Most of the work in mental focus.
Last edited by Tsavo on Sun Jul 30, 2017 6:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: July/August Perspiration and Progress Thread

Postby musical comedy » Sat Jul 29, 2017 12:33 pm

Tsavo wrote: I disagree even with elite riders if they say riding is a very demanding/physical sport (assuming you are in shape). Compared to my gym workouts which I choose to take to the edge of exhaustion for other health reasons, I told my trainer I can't even count riding as exercise even though I ride 5 day a week because I am not doing much during the riding. Most of the work in mental focus.
I would say 'it depends' and I'm not sure. Here's my thinking. We have people like Steffen Peters going to the gym regularly. Why? I'm not sure. Maybe he's just into that and really doesn't need it to ride as well as he does.

I have had most only male (strong) trainers. I have seen them be able to get stellar work from a horse that a strong, athletic woman couldn't. No matter what 'gimmicks' you employ, it's unlikely a women's back will be as strong as most men.

And also Tsavo (not picking on you :D ), if you (g) are only riding one horse or if the horse(s) you ride are not big/strong/powerful you may not need the 'strength' that is needed for a different type of horse.

Gosh, I am dripping sweat after a ride. I have a change of clothes in the tackroom.

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Re: July/August Perspiration and Progress Thread

Postby Tsavo » Sat Jul 29, 2017 12:56 pm

musical comedy wrote:
Tsavo wrote: I disagree even with elite riders if they say riding is a very demanding/physical sport (assuming you are in shape). Compared to my gym workouts which I choose to take to the edge of exhaustion for other health reasons, I told my trainer I can't even count riding as exercise even though I ride 5 day a week because I am not doing much during the riding. Most of the work in mental focus.
I would say 'it depends' and I'm not sure. Here's my thinking. We have people like Steffen Peters going to the gym regularly. Why? I'm not sure. Maybe he's just into that and really doesn't need it to ride as well as he does.


I was also thinking of that article on what Peters and his wife do in the gym and I am coming to believe it is probably at least some overkill. When I read the article, I asked my gym trainer about using a reformer like the wife uses. He said that would be too easy for me at this point and I won't get much benefit. Maybe my core work is overkill.

Someone has to explain the old expert riders who do not work out and may never have even when they were young. I think they have gimmicks plus exquisite tact and timing. They are not using too much strength in my opinion.

I have had most only male (strong) trainers. I have seen them be able to get stellar work from a horse that a strong, athletic woman couldn't. No matter what 'gimmicks' you employ, it's unlikely a women's back will be as strong as most men.


I think the reason men have a easier time is not necessarily that they are stronger but that they are stiffer through the core from the presence of more muscle naturally. Also something about their pelvis gives them an advantage (did Deb Bennett state this?). But I am just guessing. I don't think dressage is a strength sport in any sense other than in the roundabout way of needing enough strength to pull your shoulder blades back and down and such. Also there is some level of core required to sit the trot but that can be minimized if you know how to improve the trot. Maybe the sit trot can be mastered entirely with gimmicks... I don't know. I think limber people master the sit trot more quickly than others but that then disagrees with my "men are stiffer" theory. LOL. I think stiffness in the core is beneficial and limberness in the lower body is beneficial I guess I would say.

And also Tsavo (not picking on you :D ), if you (g) are only riding one horse or if the horse(s) you ride are not big/strong/powerful you may not need the 'strength' that is needed for a different type of horse.


Yes that could be. But the strength to ride the big gaits is core to get the correct gaits. If my trainer is telling me the reformer that Peters' wife was doing would be too easy for me at this point, I think it is possible I have as much core as I would need for large gaits and perhaps more than I need.

Gosh, I am dripping sweat after a ride. I have a change of clothes in the tackroom.


I sweat like a mofo these days but it is from the heat. There is nothing I can do on a horse in the arena, on the hills or on the trail than will wind me. I can't even imagine what I could do that would wind me at this point like I get winded routinely at the gym.

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Re: July/August Perspiration and Progress Thread

Postby musical comedy » Sat Jul 29, 2017 1:22 pm

Over the years, I have probably posted this quote from Harry Boldt 3-4 times. So, I'm going to post it again, because I believe it. If you're not a Boldt fan, then just ignore.

Harry Boldt wrote:When you want to be a really good strong Grand Prix rider you should work every day with two to three horses to have the fitness – and I mean two to three horses with sitting trot, really sitting. When you are riding a Grand Prix test you must be really fit as a rider, you have to keep together the horse from beginning to end. When, after completing 70% of the test, the horse is more and more on the forehand, you have to have the strength to sit against him when he is getting tired and weak.

"Anyone who has not two to three horses should go to the gym and do a little bit of work there in the gym instead. You must develop the back muscles so that you can have the strength and can sit and keep the horse together with your seat, do a little bit half-halts.


My bolding. This is talking about a GP test, but for those of us average AA's riding horses that maybe have some conformation issues or less than perfect training, you have to really use STRENGTH to SIT AGAINST them. My horse wants to pull down with his neck. Ever see those ponies pull the little kids right out of the tack? Well, believe me, it takes one heck of a lot of effort on my part to keep my horse from doing that; thus the sweating even in the winter. Clearly I am unfit; always have been. My excuse is after doing farm work all day, there is no energy for a gym. No money either.

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Re: July/August Perspiration and Progress Thread

Postby Tsavo » Sat Jul 29, 2017 1:48 pm

MC, I agree with that Boldt quote although we should remember it might be his naturally stiff male core and conveniently configured male pelvis that is talking there. I agree with you that it takes some strength to sit against the horse in picking up the front end or HHing or avoiding being pulled out of the tack.

I am saying that it is relatively easy to get to that strength level with "a little bit of work there in the gym instead" as Boldt says. It is even easier if you know which strength training has the biggest bang for the buck which can be used to target specific abilities and avoid becoming a gym rat. Being a gym rat is not necessary for riding in my opinion given my gym trainers comments about the reformer work and such.

I am also saying I could sit against my horse and use my lower back to HH before I started working out. So I agree that riding alone can work core at least like Boldt says. Of course I have never been at the 70% point of a GP test so I can't speak to that but maybe it is similar to horse what are always dumping. Maybe horses that are always dumping require MORE core than keeping a GP up for the last 30% of the test. I really don't know can can't say. I have seen trainers use plenty of core fixing various issues and that looks like some work although the instance I am thinking about was a GP trainer who rode several horses a day but did not do gym work. She was clearly working hard with her core for an extended period of time and much more than her normal riding of her GP horse which looked effortless by comparison. I never saw her look like she was working while riding GP like she was clearly working to fix the lower level horse.

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Re: July/August Perspiration and Progress Thread

Postby Tsavo » Sat Jul 29, 2017 1:55 pm

For me at this point, I am pretty sure I am not being held back by any lack of strength or fitness. It is now "just" (lack of) tact and timing holding me back. LOL. I can't prove that but that is my sense.

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Re: July/August Perspiration and Progress Thread

Postby Srhorselady » Sun Jul 30, 2017 12:38 am

Very interesting discussion! My .02 for what it's worth. I'm noticing a trend...those who started riding as an adult (and I am one of them) have found lounge line lessons very useful. While those who started riding as a child found it less useful. My centered riding instructor used to give me occasional lounge lessons which I found very useful. One problem that I have found it helps with is finding my center, both right to left and forward and backward. Due to many years of ballet I am quite comfortable balancing off center and don't even realize I am doing it. It is also useful in learning to ride against (not sure against is the right word) the horse. What I mean is I have a bad habit of adapting my rhythm to matching the horses (good or bad) and not setting a rhythm and asking the horse to match it. Lounge lessons are good to work on this. Khalil mentioned that she found riding with her eyes closed challenging. I found that interesting because my instructor and I both agree that I ride much better with my eyes closed! Which is another good use of lounge lessons. (Although I've been known to do it off lounge on my safe mellow school master in a smaller arena). :D

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Re: July/August Perspiration and Progress Thread

Postby Ryeissa » Sun Jul 30, 2017 1:49 am

Srhorselady wrote:Very interesting discussion! My .02 for what it's worth. I'm noticing a trend...those who started riding as an adult (and I am one of them) have found lounge line lessons very useful. While those who started riding as a child found it less useful. My centered riding instructor used to give me occasional lounge lessons which I found very useful. One problem that I have found it helps with is finding my center, both right to left and forward and backward. Due to many years of ballet I am quite comfortable balancing off center and don't even realize I am doing it. It is also useful in learning to ride against (not sure against is the right word) the horse. What I mean is I have a bad habit of adapting my rhythm to matching the horses (good or bad) and not setting a rhythm and asking the horse to match it. Lounge lessons are good to work on this. Khalil mentioned that she found riding with her eyes closed challenging. I found that interesting because my instructor and I both agree that I ride much better with my eyes closed! Which is another good use of lounge lessons. (Although I've been known to do it off lounge on my safe mellow school master in a smaller arena). :D


The thigh and hip placements are opposite between ballet and dressage, in dressage we want a rotated in femur. Have you found it challenging to adopt this new way of placing?

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Re: July/August Perspiration and Progress Thread

Postby khall » Sun Jul 30, 2017 3:28 am

Srhorselady, I find that interesting about ballet and being able to balance off center. I never had any ballet to speak of so did not know that. What I did do was gymnastics, floor and beam. You had better have your balance over center working on the 4" beam! I know why I had trouble with closing my eyes and my lunge lessons, I have severe motion sickness. Always have, which is why closing my eyes and riding was so disorienting. I had to work hard to not let that exercise get me off balance.

One of my imageries I have always used for helping me in my position is the look (and for me the feel) of a gymnast just before a tumbling run. They take the time to center themselves, have their beautiful position and tone and yet flexibility, you can see them build up their inner power prepping for that run. As a gymnast there is power and strength coupled with flexibility. No tension.

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Re: July/August Perspiration and Progress Thread

Postby Flight » Sun Jul 30, 2017 5:08 am

MC you've ridden to GP (or close to it) I think?
I find my better trained horse easier to ride (medium level) than the prelim one. This might be due to type and size - the younger one is very big and bouncy, and he takes a lot of core strength not to bounce off over his shoulder if he sticks his head down, or gets on my hands when he loses balance! The other horse, I now have to remember to give him breaks when we school, before I was gladly wanting the breaks to rest myself.

I thought as they get trained higher, they get lighter and more balanced to sit on, therefore less strength needed to ride??

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Re: July/August Perspiration and Progress Thread

Postby Chisamba » Sun Jul 30, 2017 5:27 am

If I may, think about swimming. I watch people like Phelps and Ledecki break world records and while they are swimming it looks effortless. However watch beginner swimmers or jump in the water and try to swim at speed yourself and it quickly becomes apparent that it takes a lot of effort.

Riding upper level is comparable. The constant but small engagement adjustments preparation and application may seem effortless compared to riding a lower level horse but it is neither effortless nor gimmicky.

Upper level riders doing nothing but sitting using gimmicks? That does sound like a gym rat opinion.

For clarification, I am going with the definition of gimmick:
A gimmick is a novel device or idea designed primarily to attract attention or increase appeal, often with little intrinsic value.
Last edited by Chisamba on Sun Jul 30, 2017 1:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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