Connection or Lightness: bit choice

[Dresseur]

So. I was pondering a theory question based on something that I felt in a friend's horse. Just to be clear, I'm not training the horse, nor do I have anything to do with training decisions. This is a friend that I visit once in a while and because I'll hop on anything that won't kill me, I've ridden her horse a time or two.

So - background. The horse is a quarterhorse mare. Very downhill, thick mutton withers, and a very thick, short neck, she used to have a huge under neck, but that has been disappearing over time. This particular horse is the most locked, dead feeling horse that I have ever felt. No movement in the mouth. Horse does not wear a noseband in order to encourage movement. She says she does do in-hand work and flexions, but this has not significantly improved matters as far as I can see. (could be technique, timing, whatever) So, my friend decided to start playing with bits. And this leads to the question at hand.
If you are trying bits...
Would you
A. Go for the bit in which the horse feels a bit heavy, but has a connection with
OR
B. Go for the bit in which the horse is very light, because it can't lean on it, but you can't create a connection with.

Bit A is this: http://ebay.to/2tBXYJr
Bit B is this: http://bit.ly/2tmi9Qg

So, nothing crazy or harsh, there - the horse just has very different responses to each bit.
Either way, through training you can work on lightness or work on connection - so I'm hoping to center this discussion on why you would choose which bit, not the training methodology or lack thereof that got the horse to this point.

[piedmontfields]

I would go with Bit A (in which horse feels a bit heavy) so that I had something to work with, and so I could feel what we are doing. It is just so much easier IME (which is less than yours!) to start with something than with nothing in the contact. My horse has taught me this big time---as she came to me as a "nothing contact" kind of horse.

[StraightForward]

I'd probably try to find a middle ground, possibly a Myler eggbutt, or at least an eggbutt or D that is not as thick as the one you linked to. I had my 4 yo in bit B and just switched to a full cheek with a very similar mouthpiece, and she is taking more contact than with the loose ring.

I wonder in that situation if it might be worth trying a bit with a roller or even keys to get the mouth a little more active? I've used pieces of fruit roll-up (apricot seems best) wrapped on the bit to teach horses to take the bit, and I've occasionally done the same to get my gelding a little more active since he could tend towards being dead-mouthed as well.

[piedmontfields]

BTW, I use a single-jointed Novocontact bit with my mare. It is a weird sort of bit, in that both the heavier and hard to connect horses seem to do well with it. It is a sizeable bit, but less bulky than the Bit A example.

p.s. With a horse who felt that dead in the mouth I would certainly be considering a different approach to dental care than what has been done in the past.

[Kyra's Mom]

I think one has to do a thorough view of the mouth...checking teeth, inside of the cheeks, and lips. Also check the poll and TMJ.

Some horses, like mine , have conformation issues that really affect her reaction to a bit. However, she is the opposite of the horse the OP is describing. Her mouth is very busy but in the earlier days, despite being busy she was like trying to hold up a freight train. When myself and my instructor didn't believe I was the cause of such tension and fussiness, I went spelunking in her mouth. Thick bits definitely increased her fussiness and anxiety. Jointed bits...just no. Double jointed was worse that single jointed. She has extremely flabby inner cheeks. She also doesn't like tongue pressure. So in an effort to unload her tongue, she would pull the bit to her teeth and start chomping then proceed to mash that thick cheek tissue between her teeth and the bit and would end up with bruising and/or blisters on each side of her mouth. I think the heaviness was her attempt to stabilize the bit. It took me over a year to find a bit that was less detestable to her. That was 8 years ago and I still haven't managed to extinguish all the fussiness although it has gotten much better. I have found that she must be straight. If she leans or pops a shoulder, it instantly shows up as fussiness and heaviness. It only took me a few years to clue into that . Some days, she is just fussy .

What she has ended up in is unfortunately not dressage legal bit but since I am not showing, so be it. It is a thin Mullen mouth bit and has a fair arch for tongue relief. When I was searching, I spoke to Dale Myler and he said that she would never be happy in a jointed bit and I believe him (his bits seems to lay too much on the tongue although I can get away with the Myler MM for a few rides). I do have a couple legal Mullen mouth bits that will work for a show if we ever get back to that world.

So, I think, if you do a fair exam of the head and mouth and everything looks OK, you (or your friend I guess) will just have to experiment. I prefer solid connection WITHOUT heaviness. I do not want to hold the horse up. I would not want lightness for the sake of lightness with no connection either. Particular, aren't I?

Susan

[Dresseur]

If it were up to me, I'd take the heavier contact with connection than the light, frozen feel with no connection. I feel that I would prefer to work on lightening the horse through the work (in hand, lateral work etc). Was very curious what others would say. It was a confusing feel to me and not one that I liked at all.

Like I said, I don't see them that often, and am not looking to insert myself into her training program. I believe that she gets a dentist to do the teeth with a vet on hand for sedation. I would guess that no vet work done on neck/poll. I know from looking at her that she has VERY fleshy lips and a fairly thick tongue and small mouth.

[Ponichiwa]

I'm with your approach, Dresseur.

The risk with the bit that makes her light in the contact is that it won't address the reason for the heaviness, and may as a result cause her to compensate in other ways that may actually make it harder to get her to be honest in the connection. Things like curling, or stepping wide behind, or dropping the "brisket", etc.

[Tsavo]

Having gone through periods with my horse that match both cases and learned to fix it (with help), I would say either one. I would further say if you really want to learn you should use both bits so that you can train a horse that is too light to take appropriate contact and HH a horse off the hand with the other bit. And neither of these things will take a lifetime to fix.

Or pick which is easier for the rider. I think HHing off the hand is probably going to be easier than building the connection (one million asks to telescope the neck and zero tolerance for backward hand) in term of degree of difficulty but the two are not worlds apart.

A big breakthrough for me in learning to ride is actually observing experts fix things. When you see them do that you know what to do. I have seen experts fix many things so I at least know what that looks like and that it is possible even if I can't do it now.

[khall]

I'm not fond of either of the bits. A loose ring can be problematic (more so with a busy mouth though) and I have never been very fond of the Mylar bits:/. Definitely do not like the egg butt, not a fan of single jointed snaffles usually.

This is my usual choice: https://www.smartpakequine.com/pt/jp-ko ... Q8QAvD_BwE

I do ride my mare Gaila in this: https://www.bigdweb.com/product/hs+spre ... ed+18mm.do
but she has a fairly quiet mouth, so no trouble with the loose rings.

I want a horse to accept the contact but stay mobile in the mouth. I will work on a horse that holds the bit to release them in the TMJ. That is done in hand to begin with, then US.

I would want a contact, something to work with rather than one that hides from the contact/bit.

[Chisamba]

I am the opposite to most opinions expressed. My personal skill set is much better at encouraging contact on a light horse than lightening a heavy one.

However I would obviously, as I sure everyone would, address the balance to improve the contact. The mouth is symptomatic of the whole horse.

[Ryeissa]

Heavier, I can't work with a horse that doesn't feel he can embrace the bit, and take hold. When I tired bits that gave this impression I immediately stopped using them.

[Abby Kogler]

Horses mouths are as individual as peoples noses. Fat lips, fleshy lips, wide bars, sharp bars...fat tongues, wide tongues...if the mare is pulling/heavy in bit A it might be because she is pushing in to the discomfort. I always go to the thinner bits; have seen too many bruised bars and tongues.

I use the bits KHall posted. Since I only get horses that have been made unhappy in their work and I start them over, I work on TMJ and poll, neck, and body issues, and work them in hand until their mouths are soft and mobile. As Chisamba wrote, mouths are symptoms. I find horses love having their mouths rubbed. Think about it, they have no way to address or relieve discomfort in their mouths, and people and trainers can be utterly oblivious to the discomfort that a horse is feeling. 'He leans, pulls, evades...blah blah blah ' what have you, when the poor horse is just trying to deal with the conditions we have placed them in, whether orally or body wise.

Not speaking critically to the OP in any way, just waxing generally.

One of the reasons I like the Legerete work is that it is so much more mouth friendly and the in hand work is really useful.

[Ryeissa]

I think that horses will always have a tendency to lean or evade, it's a training issue not a bit issue. Once the basic shape/preference is accounted for it's a symptom of the body.

I do Legerete work, yes, and also German dressage/classical/training pyramid. I have to keep revisiting the concepts "go to the bit, don't hang, go to the bit, don't hang".

[Code3]

I used to dismiss being fussy about bits until I had a horse that was fussy about bits. In my quest I discovered neue Schule bits and, when my horse liked it, I was convinced. I used a Verbindend on my OTTB and a Tranz Angled Eggbutt on my Arab. I lost my OTTB, but my Warmblood also goes well in the Tranz angled. I think Dressage Extensions has a loan program. And I'd prefer a horse to be too light as it appears I have more of a knack for getting them forward into a contact than I do for getting them lighter. Probably my own failing!

[Dresseur]

So, I asked Andrea about what she would do if presented with this conundrum (knowing that she has never seen the horse and doesn't know the horse). Her response was that if the horse's tendency to be heavy (assuming training issue, not physical issue), she would be hard-pressed to abandon a simple bit that the horse for whatever reason was not hanging on. She would choose to work on the connection. Part of the reasoning for this was that if the horse is leaning on the bit, a rider will tend to keep breaking them off the bit with harsher hh (which isn't good for a nice connection) and typically you can't add more power to address the balance because it just results in more leaning. If the horse is responding to this particular bit by not leaning for whatever reason, she can address the hinds by adding a bit more power and use quiet hh to address the balance and connection.

[piedmontfields]

Dresseur, for our edification, did Andrea recommend Bit A or Bit B (or would you think her to pick one over the other)? The language in your original description does not quite match her response. It sounds like Bit B, but perhaps I am confused!

[Dresseur]

In this case, if given only the choice between bit A and bit B (assuming that physically horse is fine) she would choose to work with bit B, the one where the the horse was very light, but was lacking a connection. Because she felt that she could probably access the horse's body better to teach the horse a better connection, where as with the bit the horse just leaned against - addressing the symptom of heaviness (which is obv caused by other things) would likely end up with even more horse in the hand. She felt it healthier and kinder to go light and find the horse to teach connection, if that makes sense.

Bit A acts a bit like a mullen. It locks together in a single firm piece when engaged. Bit B is a myler bit that moves all over the place - probably why the horse in question is not just leaning on it. I had ridden the horse in bit A a while ago, and while the horse was extremely heavy, there was a connection and I felt like I could straighten her etc. I had recently ridden horse in bit B, which is what my friend switched her to and I found her to be very light, but you couldn't do a hh or straighten her or really touch the bit.

Now, to add to the info, I found out later that the day I was up visiting was literally the first time the horse was put in the myler - so a lot of what I felt could have been as a result of that. I asked my friend how the horse was going and she said very well, horse continues to be light and is taking a better connection.

To refresh,
bit A was this: http://ebay.to/2tBXYJr
bit B was this: http://bit.ly/2tmi9Qg

[Chisamba]

I have the myler you reference, and it does not "move all over the place" when i use it. it is light, comfortable and quite stable. the center link and curved bars offer tongue relief and it works well for a dry mouth fleshy lipped horse.

[Dresseur]

I should clarify, I mean that each side rotates, which seems like it would create a much more dynamic feel for the horse as opposed to the bit that she was previously in.

[musical comedy]

I have the Myler shown below which is dressage legal. It has a bit of a port for more tongue relief. I find it quite stable, especially with the eggbutt.
My horse is a leaner, fwiw.

[musical comedy]

I should clarify, I mean that each side rotates, which seems like it would create a much more dynamic feel for the horse as opposed to the bit that she was previously in.

Yes, that's the beauty of the myler.

[mld02004]

I think one has to do a thorough view of the mouth...checking teeth, inside of the cheeks, and lips. Also check the poll and TMJ.

Some horses, like mine , have conformation issues that really affect her reaction to a bit. However, she is the opposite of the horse the OP is describing. Her mouth is very busy but in the earlier days, despite being busy she was like trying to hold up a freight train. When myself and my instructor didn't believe I was the cause of such tension and fussiness, I went spelunking in her mouth. Thick bits definitely increased her fussiness and anxiety. Jointed bits...just no. Double jointed was worse that single jointed. She has extremely flabby inner cheeks. She also doesn't like tongue pressure. So in an effort to unload her tongue, she would pull the bit to her teeth and start chomping then proceed to mash that thick cheek tissue between her teeth and the bit and would end up with bruising and/or blisters on each side of her mouth. I think the heaviness was her attempt to stabilize the bit. It took me over a year to find a bit that was less detestable to her. That was 8 years ago and I still haven't managed to extinguish all the fussiness although it has gotten much better. I have found that she must be straight. If she leans or pops a shoulder, it instantly shows up as fussiness and heaviness. It only took me a few years to clue into that . Some days, she is just fussy .

What she has ended up in is unfortunately not dressage legal bit but since I am not showing, so be it. It is a thin Mullen mouth bit and has a fair arch for tongue relief. When I was searching, I spoke to Dale Myler and he said that she would never be happy in a jointed bit and I believe him (his bits seems to lay too much on the tongue although I can get away with the Myler MM for a few rides). I do have a couple legal Mullen mouth bits that will work for a show if we ever get back to that world.

So, I think, if you do a fair exam of the head and mouth and everything looks OK, you (or your friend I guess) will just have to experiment. I prefer solid connection WITHOUT heaviness. I do not want to hold the horse up. I would not want lightness for the sake of lightness with no connection either. Particular, aren't I?

Susan

Susan, you might consider the stubben ez control bit--it locks in place like a Mullen but is otherwise jointed. I have been through a similar saga (low palette, fleshy inner cheeks, narrow mouth) and am finally found this bit that my mare does not lean against, chomp, or go behind. Then neue Schule turtle top us similar but causes rubs on my horse due to the flat shape.

[Kyra's Mom]

mld02004...I think I did try that one. It has been awhile since I did much experimenting. I tried some bit that was supposed to "lock" when pressure was applied. She could still suck it up in her teeth and she got pinched. It didn't give much tongue relief either. I am not anywhere close to showing so I will stick with the PeeWee for right now...Heck, right now I try eeking out a ride once a week. My butt still objects post surgery although it is getting better, I am taking it glacially slow. Thanks for the suggestion. If I can find it on a rental, I might try it again out of curiosity. At least the Stubben comes in a 12 mm.

Susan

[Bats79]

I've just moved a dry mouthed horse from a fine loose ring into a thicker, hollow egg butt for good results. This horse tended to lock his jaw "open" away from the finer bit and is willing to take a firmer contact (at least in the corners of his mouth) with the thicker bit and is starting to loosen his jaw and lift and stretch his neck.

So the thicker bit gave him more confidence to start to become elastic with a more open throat.