"Gimmicks", "Techniques" and "Secrets of Riding" That Have Changed Your life!

[piedmontfields]

On the inspiration/perspiration thread, MC, Tsavo, Flight and others were musing about what they differently called gimmicks or techniques or things to do that made a big difference in their riding. I will start by sharing that my DH and I use the phrase "secrets of riding" to describe highly impactful alignment, positions, and techniques that riders can bring to their horses and training.

I invite one and all to share here!

The one I am keeping in mind at the moment is that if I keep my breastbone perpendicular to the ground (up and down), my heart can float open/up and my shoulder blades descend without effort. Since I am trained in yoga, it is easy for me to access this feeling and bring it to the saddle. It keep my hands/wrists very soft and quiet as my elbows and shoulder blades descend.

Note: If the bottom of your breastbone is pointed forward, you are probably leaning back and pushing out your lower chest, possibly against the motion of your horse. If the bottom of the breastbone is pointed back, you are collapsing your torso and not carrying yourself. If this is all weird information to you, the yoga teacher in me invites you to trace the edges of your breastbone with your fingers and feel the impact it makes when it is perpendicular to the ground, pointed in front of you or pointed behind you. Fun stuff.

[musical comedy]

I've already mentioned my lordosis (and I have even more conformation faults). My natural position would look something like this.


To remedy this, I have to lean way back to make sure I am sitting on my seat bones. Initially, my thighs hurt a lot at the beginning. Next, while keeping my seat bones in place, I bend forward at the waist until I am perpendicular. I can maintain this position pretty well for the whole ride sitting. Posting trot, no can do. My leg conformation coupled with the lordosis and longer stirrups makes posting really really difficult for me. Actually, that is what eats up my energy; the posting during the warmup.

Decades of riding under instruction and not one instructor ever addressed my conformation and problems resulting from it.

[goldhorse]

The one I am keeping in mind at the moment is that if I keep my breastbone perpendicular to the ground (up and down), my heart can float open/up and my shoulder blades descend without effort. Since I am trained in yoga, it is easy for me to access this feeling and bring it to the saddle. It keep my hands/wrists very soft and quiet as my elbows and shoulder blades descend.

I am not a yoga person but maybe I need to be. I think I have recently discovered what you're referring to in the breastbone/collarbone. If I get the angle of the clavicle just right, and the forces just right, with the stabilization across the back just right, everything clicks into place. My arms just nestle into place and all extraneous noise disappears. And boy does my horse love it!

[Flight]

I've got a bit of a sway back and need to tilt my pelvis more under, so for me it's "rubbing the black board out with my lower back", and at the same time thinking that the front of my torso is a flat piece of board that's straight and upright etc, and my back is one of the same size and that they remain parallel. Sometimes I even imagine that the back board is being pushed evenly towards the front board.
I tend to slump at my waist to absorb the motion in sitting trot etc, the "boards" keep me strong.
This one may have been mentioned here?? (Dresseur maybe??)

When I start bouncing on my young horse (starting sitting trot), I imagine a bowling ball dropping down into my pelvis from my chest (being careful not to slump) and keeping my pelvis on the saddle.

[kande50]

Decades of riding under instruction and not one instructor ever addressed my conformation and problems resulting from it.

Same here. Part of the reason for that, for me anyway, was probably because the curves in my back were much less pronounced back when I was taking lessons?

Another part may be because I have no trouble balancing myself over my horse, and can easily stand up in the stirrups at any time without using my reins, so maybe they didn't feel that my rounded shoulders were interfering with my ability to communicate with my horse?

Or maybe they recognized that it wasn't anything that could be fixed and that trying to fix it would just make me stiff and distracted, and that would interfere?

But back to techniques, I think the one thing I learned that changed everything for the better, was when I finally got interested in the science of learning theory and started applying what I was learning to horses and riding.

[musical comedy]

I tend to slump at my waist to absorb the motion in sitting trot etc, the "boards" keep me strong.
This one may have been mentioned here?? (Dresseur maybe??)

Dressuer's trainer "a waist is not a joint". Well that's true, but another positive change I've made comes from Wanless. Her 'sit heavy' or something like that. The term isn't pleasing, but I'm pretty sure I understand what she meant. That is, not to stretch up from the waist because that weakens the position. Bear down from the waist. I don't know if this conflicts with Dressuer's trainer or not, but each trainer had their thinking and what works for one doesn't for another.

Interesting, after all these decades of riding including jumping and sitting trots, I have zero back or hip problems, even at my old age. I do not have an aspirin in the house.

[Tsavo]

Thanks to piedmontfields for starting this thread and apologies for taking the other thread off track.

I just want to say a few more things about my usage of the word, "Gimmick". In the gym or at the barn, when I see people operating at a high level I immediately think they have some skill or talent that they have honed through effort or just have through body genius. I see people doing incredible balance movements when I could not do them barely at all. In my frustration, I just started trying things. As soon as I tried the shoulder blade back and down I nailed the balance move on the first and all the next tries.

When you can instantly do something that you could not do literally the rep before, this is not a talent or a skill. This is merely a physical ability. A "gimmick". Physical ability can be improved but each person has their anatomical limit as our lordosis people can attest to. Lordosis is such a potential non-starter in dressage for HHing and sitting the trot that I applaud anyone who battles it successfully or at all.

MC you are right that M. Wanless advocates the bearing down and that reminds me that this bearing down is what she claims all elite riders are doing despite the fact that some may deny they are doing it. Here she is making an overt claim that it is impossible to ride at that level without bearing down. It is part of her overall thesis that some elite riders cannot teach because they have forgotten how they learned and are just speaking to what they are doing presently with inadequate words and without building a bridge of understanding. You can't get from here to there without the intervening steps is what she is saying. The bearing down is a way to activate the core muscles needed for sensing and following the motion in real time in my opinion. I think it also gets at the heart of sit trot in that the problem is not the up part but staying with the horse on the down (and forward) part without getting left. If you are bearing down you are sensing where the back is better and actually pulling yourself down which is necessarily because gravity/inertia alone is too slow.

[musical comedy]

MC you are right that M. Wanless advocates the bearing down and that reminds me that this bearing down is what she claims all elite riders are doing despite the fact that some may deny they are doing it.

Right. I don't think a lot of riders really are aware of what they are doing or can explain it. It's hard to explain feeling. Bearing down has sort of a negative tone, like sitting heavy. But it's not that, at least no imo. For me, it wasn't until Wanless mentioned what not to do, that I understood what needed to be changed. Lots of instructors will say "stretch up" or "sit tall". Yes, you want to sit tall, but not by weakening your core.

Another thing I am able to do is lift my horse's back with my seat. It's yet another thing I can't describe in words. Years ago when a good trainer was riding a horse of mine and it looked fabulous, he told me it was because he was holding the back up. I didn't understand it then, but now I think I do.

[Ryeissa]

I tend to slump at my waist to absorb the motion in sitting trot etc, the "boards" keep me strong.
This one may have been mentioned here?? (Dresseur maybe??)

Dressuer's trainer "a waist is not a joint". Well that's true, but another positive change I've made comes from Wanless. Her 'sit heavy' or something like that. The term isn't pleasing, but I'm pretty sure I understand what she meant. That is, not to stretch up from the waist because that weakens the position. Bear down from the waist. I don't know if this conflicts with Dressuer's trainer or not, but each trainer had their thinking and what works for one doesn't for another.

Interesting, after all these decades of riding including jumping and sitting trots, I have zero back or hip problems, even at my old age. I do not have an aspirin in the house.

I am exclusively doing Mary Wanless type work, but with the backdrop of a classical dressage program. This sit heavy is like one of those wobble dolls that never tip over, but mantain a strong base. The most eye opening concept for me was to support the weight with my thighs and plug in- hard to explain but I have both a snug in feeling and also a "carry myself" feeling, so I do not plop down on the horse.

Whatever this all is, after adjustments a few years ago and an open mind, I have never ridden better. I need to know why, not just yell at me to sit up. Now I think of it like "pull my sternum forward, balance my two opposting diagonal lines, feel the lift of the inner abs, keep the lumbars filled out"

Shoulder back caused me to only make myself stiffer and I over-corrected.

Again, I have to think differently. but my position seems to be much better. I also prefer a shorter stirrup, that is the biggest difference in me vs a long straight dressage leg. I carry more tone. Not tension, but strength. This is where I think professional and talented riders are already riding with tone and form, but they don't realize it. It's an active learninig process for some of us.

[StraightForward]

I like this, and it feels like a gimmick: http://eclectic-horseman.com/centering-your-horse/

I use it when I start to over-complicate and over-think things.

[piedmontfields]

Straightforward, thank you for sharing that article! I am familiar that practice, but hadn't read it described that way. I liked the comment on some dressage riders being unable to allow the horse to hunt for center/balance.

[Dresseur]

Ok, so I'll try to make this make sense. Caveats - these are things that have worked for me. Everyone processes imagery and words in a different manner. My coach and I recently had a conversation about different experiences and body types etc. She (from a very young age) was always an assistant to some pretty big names (Eventing and dressage), so was never allowed to stray far from what's correct in terms of position and feel - so she is very results oriented. Did the horse do x,y or z and how did it feel doing x,y, z. This is from a super basic level. Did the horse move off my leg, yes or no. Did the horse go forward when I asked, yes or no. Did the horse change it's lead when I asked, yes or no. You get the idea.

I'm an analyzer. What did I do wrong that the horse didn't do x,y,z because I'm not confident that I'm not missing something at a basic level. I had to unlearn everything that I ever learned because it wasn't correct. And I had never been on a horse that went correctly, so I had no target. She talked about at this point, I need to get more results oriented, less analytical because at some level, everything can be boiled down to a basic (pirouettes for instance - is the horse powering through the piri (stop/go when I ask) and is it putting the hind legs up and under (did horse move off my leg when I asked) and is the horse staying soft (did the horse yield to hh when I asked). So, the gist is that I'm not THAT out of whack that the horse shouldn't be following what I'm asking of it.

But, that's a bit of a side note - however, the thinking there is helping me. I do still need to make sure that I'm finding the holes where they exist, but I'm "good enough" that I shouldn't allow that to side track me from just getting the job done.

In terms of some of the questions about is it easier or harder to ride a GP horse vs a horse in training... as with so many things having to do with horses, it depends. I thought that riding GP should be all light and easy. It's not. Not yet anyway. Sometimes they are the most difficult rides because I haven't managed the power or the balance. And Gala pays the price with that. Sometimes, when I have things just right, it's effortless. BUT - and this is the big but... I HAD to get myself more fit to ride at that level. Why? Riding is dynamic, you are always adjusting, moving, changing things, flexing, releasing and basically managing the power of a 1200 pound animal that would much rather pull itself around on the forehand. That amount of power takes finesse to manage - that amount of finesse takes a certain amount of fitness and balance to make it effortless looking, and so that you can sit balanced enough to make those small adjustments. If the horse is not moving through it's back, your back gets rearranged. Not fun.

The training horses - a lot of it depends on gaits - some are smoother than others, some, as I just mentioned, rearrange your back and are physical rides because they tend to hover in the gaits. You don't have as much power to manage, and the balance isn't as critical (you are not doing piris for instance) and in some ways, that makes it easier. Many, many horses that come in to training that I have felt get smoother as they learn to not hover in the gaits and learn to flex in their LS rather than doing transitions and collection by pronging off the shoulders. Then, they become easier.

In any case, that is why I'm so obsessed with position. Everyone has limitations due to the way they are built. I cannot get away with slumping my shoulders, not even a little bit - I'm so long up top that it pulls me right out of the tack. I have scoliosis, I have to make sure that I'm as straight as I can be. But, everyone can strive to be in the proper alignment, and most everyone can work on small fitness goals - such as strengthening the core and the lats - the most important muscles in riding IMO. And, those exercises are relatively easy on the body. But, I have felt the difference in me holding the horse on my back, vs getting soft in the shoulder - then it turns into pulling with the arms. So, those two things have changed my riding. Making my waist NOT a joint, and strengthening my lats so that I can get my shoulders back and down. I also think that while there are skeletal abnormalities, you can compensate by strengthening muscles that support the rest of the body. You would NEVER know that I have scoliosis - and it's a quite pronounced curve, because I've very carefully, over time worked on making the muscling as symmetrical as possible. Am I obsessive, yes. But can I ride evenly now? yes!

Another thing - this sounds dumb because we ALL know that straightness is critical. But ride the damn horse straight. I was over bending everything just slightly. I thought that I was "bending the horse" around my inside leg, with the horse following the inside rein. Nope. I was over bending. The second that I realized that, and held my self to task to keep the neck as straight as though I could be in piaffe/passage, the world changed. This has been a big thing for lower level vs. upper level work too. It's easy to over bend thinking that you are following the track of a 20 meter circle or whatever. If you can't see the outside cheekpiece of the bridle, you may not be straight. Mirrors are your friend.

Go forward and come back often. If you have no gears in your gaits, you're sunk for upper level work. You have to be able to ask for a little more oomph and a little more collection, even on the greenies. It's just a slight ask at first - will the horse go forward a little when asked, will the horse come back a little when I ask. Eventually, these become your collected and medium gaits and every shade of go/come back in between. And at GP, you MUST have gears. I tended to just coast and not test things. Now I know that you have to constantly test things to train those quiet reactions to your seat and legs etc. Train yourself to test things. In upper levels, stuff happens fast and if you are coasting along, you'll be out of luck.

Also, when you are learning. Don't be afraid of stiffness. Think of ballerinas. They don't start with all that suppleness. They spend their time at the barre - the movements are stiff at first, and then gain fluidity and grace. You will be stiff at first as you learn new techniques, it takes time to become supple and easy in the movements, but so many people get worried that they are too stiff, but then they stay loose in their position and keep following, rather than directing the movement. I see that as being a huge wall for many people. You have to be able to influence the horse, which means that you have to be able to exert a certain amount of influence through your aids. Your position is an aid in and of itself. If you are always soft and following - you are muffling the conversation and you certainly aren't leading it. Which means that you are always in damage control mode. Yes, I'm using absolutes here, but this was a hard, hard lesson for me to learn. I was quite stiff for a while, but now I'm not, and I have that suppleness that I've wanted for so long, and I can direct the conversation in subtle ways, not just fix things after they happen.

I'll add more as I think on things. But these things were all critical.

[Ryeissa]

I like this, and it feels like a gimmick: http://eclectic-horseman.com/centering-your-horse/

I use it when I start to over-complicate and over-think things.

I don't think this is a gimmek, this is a common way to describe collection. It's sort of the anti- trialing hocks idea. I hard this back in the 90s.

[piedmontfields]

Dresseur, one idea in your post reminded me of another of my favorite riding secrets (this one I got from JJ Tate): "Be bossy in your seat."

(obviously, not all the time, as the seat can also harmonize, but your seat is a powerful tool to lead your horse---use it.)

[musical comedy]

The training horses - a lot of it depends on gaits - some are smoother than others, some, as I just mentioned, rearrange your back and are physical rides because they tend to hover in the gaits. You don't have as much power to manage, and the balance isn't as critical (you are not doing piris for instance) and in some ways, that makes it easier. Many, many horses that come in to training that I have felt get smoother as they learn to not hover in the gaits and learn to flex in their LS rather than doing transitions and collection by pronging off the shoulders. Then, they become easier.

I don't understand this. First you say hovering gaits are a physical ride and then you say hovering gaits don't have as much power to manage. I think hovering gaits have a lot of power and are a physical ride. I like hovering gaits (airtime, amplitude, cadence). I do not like quick tempo and flat movement and I saw that in most horses at 'you know where'.

I cannot get away with slumping my shoulders, not even a little bit - I'm so long up top that it pulls me right out of the tack.

The long top does not present nearly the problem as having big boobs. I've noticed that all the top riders have flat chests. Even the heavier ones.

Go forward and come back often. If you have no gears in your gaits, you're sunk for upper level work.

For sure, but you are relatively sunk even a 2nd without them. That is the problem with many horses not bred for dressage. They have no range in their gaits.

Also, when you are learning. Don't be afraid of stiffness. Think of ballerinas. They don't start with all that suppleness. They spend their time at the barre - the movements are stiff at first, and then gain fluidity and grace. You will be stiff at first as you learn new techniques, it takes time to become supple and easy in the movements, but so many people get worried that they are too stiff, but then they stay loose in their position and keep following, rather than directing the movement. I see that as being a huge wall for many people. You have to be able to influence the horse, which means that you have to be able to exert a certain amount of influence through your aids. Your position is an aid in and of itself. If you are always soft and following - you are muffling the conversation and you certainly aren't leading it. Which means that you are always in damage control mode. Yes, I'm using absolutes here, but this was a hard, hard lesson for me to learn. I was quite stiff for a while, but now I'm not, and I have that suppleness that I've wanted for so long, and I can direct the conversation in subtle ways, not just fix things after they happen.I'll add more as I think on things. But these things were all critical.

Absolutely. This is a big reason why so many people can't learn to sit the trot (among other things). You just have to make yourself do it until it becomes easy. One thing for sure about me, is I don't worry much about how pretty I look riding. I want results from the horse, and do what it takes to get them.

[Dresseur]

I don't understand this. First you say hovering gaits are a physical ride and then you say hovering gaits don't have as much power to manage. I think hovering gaits have a lot of power and are a physical ride. I like hovering gaits (airtime, amplitude, cadence). I do not like quick tempo and flat movement and I saw that in most horses at 'you know where'.

Sorry, I could have been more clear. The hovering is one issue that makes horses terribly physical to ride. Hovering is a horse that is kind of bouncing along, but without the bridge of the back. It's usually accompanied by a slowish hind leg that doesn't have a lot of reach. That is different from suspension that is coming from the correct use of the horse's body and back. For instance, one of the horses that I ride looks beautiful to watch. Suspension in spades, but the horse moves with a dropped back, so the rider is thrown around quite a bit - once you get the back working, the whole gait smooths out and you keep the suspension, but the horse gives you a place to sit. So to me, a horse that hovers is a bad thing. Basically, if I had to distill it down - people who have taught or allowed horses to do a false passage in the trot... that's no bueno. That's hovering and it's typically hard on the rider. The barn manager's horse - a pure bred PRE - amazing mover for the breed... selected for Robert Dover clinics etc, and was HIGHLY praised by the Robert Dover's etc - was taught to hover and subsequently showed signs of mystery lameness. Every single diagnostic was thrown at him to find the cause and it was never found. He's 100% sound now that he is no longer hovering in the gaits. So, was it a form of rein lameness, who knows. But I rode him before and it was incredibly uncomfortable. I've been on him now and he feels like a different horse.

Quick tempo and flat movement are another thing, and I agree, I personally like more amplitude. And, you can train that to some degree into a horse. So, for instance. 2 horses - full sisters. One is staying flat and quick, one is now (with all the strength and training) moving with amplitude and a decent amount of suspension for the breed. And, while there are horses that will never be world beater movers - you can increase range of gaits through training. They may not have a huge extension, or be able to come way under, but you can train them to be able to increase the range of what they CAN do, and that's the beauty of dressage.

The other part of my original statement was that lower level horses (that use themselves more or less correctly and don't hover in their gaits) are not as physical because you don't have to manage all the power, and the balance isn't as critical.

Piedmont - yes, I think the bossy in the seat comment is a good one - it is a very, very powerful yet subtle tool.

[Flight]

The hovering is one issue that makes horses terribly physical to ride. Hovering is a horse that is kind of bouncing along, but without the bridge of the back. It's usually accompanied by a slowish hind leg that doesn't have a lot of reach. That is different from suspension that is coming from the correct use of the horse's body and back.

Yes, this is what Ding is starting to do now that he has began passage. He'll try and offer that hovering trot and its bouncy as anything. I have to quicken him up, or do a bit of shoulder in to stop it.

I'm not sure about the bear down thing.
I followed a lot of Mary Wanless stuff in the past, and I may have overdone a few things or I needed supervision! The bear down made me do the funny waist thing. I'll find a pic.
Ok this is the not even the worst one I've seen (I would have deleted all those!) but you can see in the 'down' phase of the trot that I try and bear down, but all I've done is hollow my back and you can see my fat belly forward onto the saddle (gross ). And then on the 'up' phase, I suck it all back up
Down:

Dingalinggoulburn17gutses.jpg (97.39 KiB) Viewed 22477 times

Up:

Dingalinggoulburngutses2.jpg (97.23 KiB) Viewed 22477 times

It really wasn't until quite recently after examining a few of dresseur's pics and a few others of similar build, that I don't think they bear down that much at all? Or if they do the are still holding themselves very 'up' while they do it?? Before I had my knee done, I was sitting a lot more up, almost tensing my butt muscles (but that does make you pop out of the saddle) but certainly thinking of squashing everything in rather than out.
Hard to describe, but you can see it especially on the thin people. Charlotte Dujardin is similar, she looks more up than bearing down.

Another thing is the thigh, I've always been told loose thigh, relaxed, fluffy etc. I think you do need tone at least the upper, inner part?? Certainly not gripping, but there is tone. Again when you watch the upper riders, I don't think their thigh is fluffy.

MC, when you say holding your horses back up, I know this feeling, but for me to get it, it is more that encircling feeling of upper thigh and feeling as if I'm narrow and more up.

[Dresseur]

The bearing down analogy never worked for me either, but what I think that it does do is get some people thinking about engaging the low abs - the ones down in the pelvic girdle. I tend to think of wearing a corset, or at the very least, sucking my belly button into my spine. That with the lats engaged back and down creates a solid wall in the torso. The last things is the obliques, which help keep all the energy flowing forward, not wiggling side to side. The low stabilizing core muscles in the pelvis are hugely important though. To access them, you can put your shoulders on an exercise ball, knees at 90 degrees. So, knee, hips, shoulders all aligned, hands on hips to see if the pelvis is rocking. Then lift one leg, then the other. It's hard, but it will make a major difference in riding in pretty short order.

For a visual, this... but hands on your hips. Hips cannot drop or twist - hold them up in line. Then lift one leg, then the other.

Medicine-Ball-fly.jpg (17.26 KiB) Viewed 22472 times

one leg, then the other... again, hands on hips to feel if you are dropping or twisting the pelvis.

image016.jpg (19.93 KiB) Viewed 22468 times

[Flight]

Yes, I have to think more of belly button to spine, but Wanless was teaching the opposite. Pushing your abdominal wall outwards, not in. So I just let it all out !!!
To get that pose on the fitness ball, you would be pushing your back (as in shoulders, back, bum, thighs) up towards a strong front. And that is what it looks like to me, when I study the photos of you lot.

[Dresseur]

Yes, I have to think more of belly button to spine, but Wanless was teaching the opposite. Pushing your abdominal wall outwards, not in. So I just let it all out !!!
To get that pose on the fitness ball, you would be pushing your back (as in shoulders, back, bum, thighs) up towards a strong front. And that is what it looks like to me, when I study the photos of you lot.

Yes, the front needs to be strong - and the back is connected by the lats and obliques, so the core muscles are holding that up along with the large muscles of the back. If you look at human anatomy, we don't actually have individual muscles in the small of our backs - most people are surprised to hear that. https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/or ... 482831.jpg
If you push out like Wanless, if found that you WILL be engaging those muscles, BUT, most people then tend crunch down, roach the back and soften the shoulders. But, the imagery works for some people, so I can't knock it.

In any case, the look that you are pushing from the back is because I'm holding myself to the front of the saddle with an engaged core - the shoulders back and down completes the unit, it carries a very forward intent if that makes sense.

Thighs have tone. The only time I lock on is if I have to resist a pull. But, no, the thighs should never be loose or floppy in the saddle, they are there, and ready to engage if needed. The glutes (butt muscles) should never be engaged, it turns the leg out and pops you out of the saddle. I turn my leg from the hip and use the inner and outer leg muscles (idk the names) to engage if needed. That leaves the calf free to aid.

Edited to add, I do NOT use the major butt muscles, but the abductors and adductors working together.
I do a lot of these exercises:
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/-6Ksus4QfE4/maxresdefault.jpg
http://www.physicaltherapyfirst.com/fil ... elying.png

[StraightForward]

Another thing is the thigh, I've always been told loose thigh, relaxed, fluffy etc. I think you do need tone at least the upper, inner part?? Certainly not gripping, but there is tone. Again when you watch the upper riders, I don't think their thigh is fluffy.

I like the image of the thigh being adherent like a wet towel that will mold to the horse and move with it, so not fluffy, but also not tight or stiff.

[kande50]

Sorry, I could have been more clear. The hovering is one issue that makes horses terribly physical to ride.

I find it easy to sit, but that may be because my horse tends to slow down when he does it?

When he first started offering it my plan was to reward it and then add energy, until I saw it on video and realized that I was encouraging him to hop/hover with his hinds without lifting his withers more. So instead of taking more weight in back and lifting more in front, he was just learning to lift all four legs higher and add in a bit of suspension, but in the same balance he started out with.

IOW, teaching him to pick all four legs up higher might get good scores in comps, but my interest is in being able to get true collection in which the horse lightens his front end by taking more weight on his hinds. And from what I can see, when the hinds take more weight they neither hover, nor are they lifted up as much as the fronts.

[Ryeissa]

No, the loose thigh was my biggest issue!

[Dresseur]

Yes, if a hovering trot slows, it can be easier to sit. That's why IMO you see so many horses with tons of suspension crawling around at a terminal trot. But, to eliminate a hovering trot, you have to send it forward and connect the front to the hinds through the back. The hinds, when they have enough activity will firm up the back/ab muscles of the horse (providing you don't just throw the contact away up front) Then, when that bridge is established, you can start to rebalance by using transitions, hh and lateral work.

Slowing down is the antithesis of collection. You have to build strength to collect properly, otherwise the horse is just propping up with the forelegs instead of sitting and transferring weight behind and flexing the joints more. I forget which old master said that the best way to get to collection is to trot/halt, trot/halt, trot/halt. Of course, it's not that easy. It's the manner of the trot/halts that make the difference. The horse that I referenced above will end up looking like he's well under, and can stop on a dime - but when you feel what he's doing - he drops the back behind the withers and plants the fronts - which puts the whole transition on the forehand. Then, when he lands, he brings up the hinds and gives the illusion of a properly done transition. But, he's never taking weight behind, so not working toward collection.

[Ryeissa]

YSlowing down is the antithesis of collection.

yes, for me I think slow power in extensions and QUICK in collection, meaning the hind legs stay very active and there is the same energy in both. It was a real "mind- shift". I have more energy in collection. I had incorrectly been taught to collect from slowness, maybe unintentionally. I'm in the beginning stages, but this shift helps me avoid a lot of pitfalls I had made before.

[Chisamba]

First off, words do matter. Understanding the meaning of a word, and using it appropriately is the way to communicate, if you have no desire to communicate why are you even on a bulletin board?

I would guess my primary directive is do the opposite, if a rider naturally has a hollow back, they need to learn to flatten their back, if a rider naturally has a slouch then need to learn to adjust their shoulders down, if a rider tends to be very floppy in the thigh then need to learn to be more adherent, if a rider has a stiff hip, they need to loosen up, if they have a belly dancing waist, they need to learn to move less. If a rider sits too far back they might appreciate the advice to sit closer to the pommel, but mostly one should sit on the center of ones saddle on the center of ones horse, and be "still" wrt to the horse.

For this simple reason, and most humans being some what different both in physique and in erudition, it is often difficult to explain the simple technique that makes one effective and it may differ from the technique that makes another effective.

sitting still over the middle of your horse may be a simple goal but it is not always easy to accomplish. Some people say how can you sit still when the horse is moving, and you explain, do not move more than the horse so that you are still with respect to its movement ( as you might be sitting still in a car while still going 80. I have people come to me for lessons whose heels are so forced down that they are unable to be supple in the knee, leg ankle or hip. the result is six inches of air between them and the saddle in every stride. I also know people who have forced their shoulders down and back so much that the are riding with a tipped pelvis and hollow back.

It is because there is no one technique that works for everyone that sharing advice, explaining skills, and describing effects is not easy.

For example " use your seat" is a classic example of a technique that can be thoroughly overdone. Tiny riders can be observed on big horses with hollow sore backs because they are : using their seat: like a ramrod.

there used to be a udbb person whose name was lessismore. Less is more. the least amount of aid that will achieve the desired effect, that might be my secondary directive. what is the least amount of effort ( leg, hand, whip, seat) that will achieve the desired effect. how can i persuade the horse to respond with less effort. most of the reason why riders tip, lean, brace or hollow is because they are having to apply their aid with more effort than is easy to do while maintaining balance. So less effort more effective.

none of these things pertain to how you physically achieve them. no life altering offer of one simple thing to solve your problems. no offer of a gimmick or promise that if you just pay me twenty bucks i will give you a life altering solution.

So we come to my third thing, sometimes you just have to work it out, put in the time, if you do not have hours in the saddle, make that time that you do have in the saddle more efficient.

Michael Page used to have his riders do a bit of warm up, then he would call them in to circle around him and ask each person what they were doing, their riding history and their goals. Most riders as they sat there would slouch, relax their legs, drop their hands, put a hand on a hip, something relaxed. He would then go on to say how they were doing a disservice to themselves and their horse. If you only have a hour of the horse, every single moment of that hour should be correct. your leg, your seat, your back, even when relaxed, should be in position, because only good riding makes one better.

I admit that i thought about all the times i was " just having a hack" riding and did not maintain my leg, seat, or back. Now admittedly i ride many times a month, but for that rider who wants do do well and only has one horse to ride, as Mr Page said, ride gooder. ( yes, it was is way of saying it)

So that is perhaps my tertiary directive. Always rider gooder.

[kande50]

Yes, if a hovering trot slows, it can be easier to sit. That's why IMO you see so many horses with tons of suspension crawling around at a terminal trot. But, to eliminate a hovering trot, you have to send it forward and connect the front to the hinds through the back. The hinds, when they have enough activity will firm up the back/ab muscles of the horse (providing you don't just throw the contact away up front) Then, when that bridge is established, you can start to rebalance by using transitions, hh and lateral work.

Yes, that was my original plan: to take the passagy trot and add energy. Fortunately, I figured out the difference between passage-trot with the hovering hinds and true passage before I started adding energy, because I think if I hadn't I would have probably just created an energetic false passage.

I think losing energy may be the antithesis of collection, but slowing down isn't because the horse does slow down when he collects because the steps become shorter.

[musical comedy]

First off, words do matter. Understanding the meaning of a word, and using it appropriately is the way to communicate, if you have no desire to communicate why are you even on a bulletin board?

I agree words matter, but here on this thread we are talking about 'our' personal techniques/gimmicks that help us. I don't think we are trying to suggest that others do the same. Well, maybe one or two posters are. Imagery works for a lot of people. How we describe feel is difficult to put into words.

I would guess my primary directive is do the opposite, if a rider naturally has a hollow back, they need to learn to flatten their back, if a rider naturally has a slouch then need to learn to adjust their shoulders down, if a rider tends to be very floppy in the thigh then need to learn to be more adherent, if a rider has a stiff hip, they need to loosen up, if they have a belly dancing waist, they need to learn to move less. If a rider sits too far back they might appreciate the advice to sit closer to the pommel, but mostly one should sit on the center of ones saddle on the center of ones horse, and be "still" wrt to the horse.
For this simple reason, and most humans being some what different both in physique and in erudition, it is often difficult to explain the simple technique that makes one effective and it may differ from the technique that makes another effective.

Couldn't agree more.

Michael Page used to have his riders do a bit of warm up, then he would call them in to circle around him and ask each person what they were doing, their riding history and their goals. Most riders as they sat there would slouch, relax their legs, drop their hands, put a hand on a hip, something relaxed. He would then go on to say how they were doing a disservice to themselves and their horse. If you only have a hour of the horse, every single moment of that hour should be correct. your leg, your seat, your back, even when relaxed, should be in position, because only good riding makes one better.

I've ridden in a couple eventing clinics with him. He told me I'd ride better if I could thin down my thighs. (Just thought I put that in). I do agree that every single moment of riding should try to be correct. I follow that principle to a 't'. That why I guess I so dislike the word fun with respect to riding, because it brings to mind being carefree and not really paying attention to detail.. When I ride, it's like I'm in a test. I'm thinking of test riding the whole time.

[Dresseur]

think losing energy may be the antithesis of collection, but slowing down isn't because the horse does slow down when he collects because the steps become shorter.

The steps become shorter, but they come higher and more active and the tempo should not change. The piaffe will is a touch of an outlier because the hinds should not come up so far - but that is because the horse is carrying maximum weight behind. Slowing is losing energy. The doux passage vid that I posted on the other thread is highly collected, but is in the same tempo as her collected trot, and the same tempo as her piaffe, and the extended trot is not far off that tempo either.

wrote:
First off, words do matter. Understanding the meaning of a word, and using it appropriately is the way to communicate, if you have no desire to communicate why are you even on a bulletin board?

I agree words matter, but here on this thread we are talking about 'our' personal techniques/gimmicks that help us. I don't think we are trying to suggest that others do the same. Well, maybe one or two posters are. Imagery works for a lot of people. How we describe feel is difficult to put into words.

Agreed, words matter, and we should try to be as specific as possible when discussing. However, different things resonate with different people, so it does help to hear things in different ways.

[khall]

chisamba nailed it. I could not agree more with what she wrote on the 3 points of making our riding better.

MC wrote: I'm thinking of test riding the whole time. and why you do not think riding is "fun".

That is definitely very different way to look at riding than I do. I always ride by feel and what I can do in the exercises to make my horse better for the next ride. I used to be much more like MC, then I met Mark and he tempered that type A personality enough to make me have a mind shift on riding. What I like most about that shift is because of how I think differently now on riding and horses it is rare for me to have a bad ride. I come to the riding with a better mind set and it shows in the outcome. It makes me a more relaxed yet more observant rider and better able to ride the horse under me. I think that is why my Spain trip was so successful as well. I rode the horses underneath me and tried to make myself and them better each ride while under the instruction of the trainer there. I want to smile while I ride! I want that horse to feel my joy in our partnership however long or short it is.

As for techniques that I have learned that have made me a better rider: it really is not about my position, though that is part of it. It is more about the understanding of biomechanics that I have learned the last 10 yrs or so and how the work we do with our horses helps to improve and strengthen them. The in hand work I learned from Mark and now am expanding upon from other sources (Jillian for one) has been indispensable to me in training the horses I work with. The details are a building block for the development of the horses IMO are priceless.

I have 3 main checks on the horses that I do in hand: check that the TMJ is released with a mobile jaw, check that the lateral flexion at C1 occiput is fluid and working, check that the neck extension, release of the neck out and down is there then being able to apply these in motion and in the WIH that we do (i.e. lateral work). The feel you develop during the WIH definitely transfers to US. The positioning and body control in WIH is just like US. I find it quite fascinating!

[musical comedy]

This is from the USDF. I've probably put this up before many times in the past on udbb and other places. There continue to be people that still think that 'coming under/reach'' is engagement or collection. There have been differences of opinion, on these boards, about whether collected trot tracks up. My opinion is that it does not have to, but some do. It depends on a few factors. This just happens to be a real thorn in my side; i.e. this enchantment with overtracking that some people have.

I have bolded what is important in my opinion. Also, I do believe the tempo changes in trot from a more untrained horse doing a first level working trot and a true 3rd+ level horse, the latter being slower. I dunno, maybe the way I count count is wrong.

Also this 'sitting' 'lowering of the haunches' is not really required at, for example, third level. There are degrees of collection. Also, and this could be another topic, according to Hillary Clayton, the front of the horse plays an important role. (Link later. I have the pdf saved by can't provide it here).

If you tried to ride movements of a test, you can easily see whether you have enough collection or not. If you are too strung out and on the forehand, you cannot successfuly do, for example, an 8m circle. (unless you are on a pony or something). Same goes for all the movements. They come up faster and faster as the levels go up. If your horse isn't up and connected, you just cannot do the transitions adequately.

Collection
“Increased engagement and lifting of the forehand, with shorter steps relative to the other paces of the gait, while main-
taining energy and self carriage. The horse’s outline becomes shorter from bit to hip, with the neck and wither stretched
and arched upwards. (Note: It is a common misconception that the hind legs step further forward under the body in
collection. This is not consonant with the shorter strides required in collection. At the trot and canter the hind feet are
picked up relatively sooner after passing under the hip, and spend relatively longer on the ground (support phase) than in
the other paces of the gait.)”


Engagement
“Increased flexion of the lumbosacral joint and the joint of the hind leg during the weight-bearing (support) phase of the
stride, thus lowering the croup relative to the forehand (“lightening of the forehand”). Engagement is ‘carrying power’
rather than ‘pushing power’. A prerequisite for upward thrust/impulsion. (Note: Engagement is not flexion of the hocks
or ‘hock action’ [as seen most clearly in gaited horses or hackneys] in which the joints of the hind legs are most markedly
flexed while the leg is in the air. Nor is engagement the length of the step of the hind leg forward towards the horse’s
girth – that is ‘reach’ of the hind leg.)” [

[Dresseur]

I don't think that tracking up is a true measure either. And I did shift my language to discuss the hind legs coming under the body to bear more weight because a lot of people on the old board would scratch their heads when I talked about the flexion of the LS joint. But absolutely, any part of the hinds bearing more weight is the increased flexion of the LS joint that brings the hinds under - not just by the hinds swinging under, but because that joint is flexed. The hinds can have a ton of engagement, but not necessarily be carrying more weight behind.

This is one of the best examples of what I'm talking about that I've seen. Watch this halt and what the LS joint does and where the hind legs end up under the body. This is something that will over time build strength for piaffe.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QoH3YNu2Xes

[musical comedy]

I don't think that tracking up is a true measure either. And I did shift my language to discuss the hind legs coming under the body to bear more weight because a lot of people on the old board would scratch their heads when I talked about the flexion of the LS joint. But absolutely, any part of the hinds bearing more weight is the increased flexion of the LS joint that brings the hinds under - not just by the hinds swinging under, but because that joint is flexed. The hinds can have a ton of engagement, but not necessarily be carrying more weight behind.

This is one of the best examples of what I'm talking about that I've seen. Watch this halt and what the LS joint does and where the hind legs end up under the body. This is something that will over time build strength for piaffe.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QoH3YNu2Xes

That sure is a good halt in the video. Never have I gotten anything close to that. Well, maybe when a horse stopped at a fence. Anyway Dressuer, I totally understand what you wrote above and agree with it. However, you are still using using a term incorrectly. The term Engagement definition is below. If you have Engagement you are carrying more weight behind. I don't care for the term 'coming under' because many people think that is the forward reach under the body and it is not.

Engagement
Increased flexion of the joints of the hind legs, during its weight-bearing phase. This causes a relative lowering of the quarters/raising of the forehand, thus shifting more of the task of loading-bearing to the hindquarters. A prerequisite for upward thrust/impulsion. Engagement is not flexion of the hocks or "hock action" in which the joints of the hind legs are markedly flexed while the leg is in the air. Nor is engagement merely the length of the step of the hind leg forward toward the horse's girth - that is reach of the hind leg.

[Dresseur]

You are right! That's what I get for not reading for comprehension, and trying to work while distracted by this thread!

[kande50]

If you tried to ride movements of a test, you can easily see whether you have enough collection or not. If you are too strung out and on the forehand, you cannot successfuly do, for example, an 8m circle. (unless you are on a pony or something). Same goes for all the movements. They come up faster and faster as the levels go up. If your horse isn't up and connected, you just cannot do the transitions adequately.

I guess that would depend on what you mean by successfully, as we see a lot of horses in upper level comps who are more on the forehand than the horse would be naturally (force plate studies confirm this) and they get through the tests just fine. They may trot their hind ends around their front ends in the corners, and bounce their hind ends up and down without ever lightening their front ends, but they do get through the tests.

I used to think that the proof was in the pudding and if a horse could do the movements then he must be collected, but then as I developed my eye I began to realize that there was a difference between horses who took more weight on their hinds so that they could lift their withers vs those who didn't, or didn't shift their weight much.

Too bad I didn't figure that out sooner rather than later, because it would have cleared up a lot of confusion....

[Tsavo]

Shoulder back caused me to only make myself stiffer and I over-corrected.

It's shoulder blades back AND DOWN. It's the down part that I think engages the deep core that produces the instant stability. I am bringing my shoulders straight back now without bringing them down that does nothing for me. If you are going to pick one, do the down as opposed to the back.

And while I would try over the years to just bring my shoulder blades back and down, I never noticed any effect from it. I am guessing that is because I wasn't engaging the correct muscles. It was only after 2 years of targeted work with a personal trainer that I had the BOSU epiphany and that then reminds me to do it riding.

Some people naturally have their shoulders back in good posture but I am not sure how many have the musculature to bring them down as a default to produce the balancing effect. It is only easy for me to do this after 2 years of targeted work. Before that it was very hard.

[Tsavo]

Another thing I am able to do is lift my horse's back with my seat. It's yet another thing I can't describe in words. Years ago when a good trainer was riding a horse of mine and it looked fabulous, he told me it was because he was holding the back up. I didn't understand it then, but now I think I do.

I agree the sense of pulling the back up almost defies description. If I had to put it in words I would say instead of leg to hand it is leg to seat. It feels like making a momentary space under the seat that the horse will fill from the leg. The actual mechanism I think is the horse rotating the pelvis under which will raise the back. Or maybe horses can raise their back without rotating the pelvis. Don't know. All I know is it is the difference between being able to sit the trot easily or not.

Actually I think it is synonymous with collection come to think of it.

[Tsavo]

In terms of some of the questions about is it easier or harder to ride a GP horse vs a horse in training...

Actually my query was somewhat different... I asked if a GP TRAINER, someone who produces GP horses, finds riding GP less or more physically taxing than riding certain rehab individuals who I will not name.

My observation is that I never saw that trainer appear physically taxed while working or showing her GP horse whereas I most certainly did see her get physically taxed in riding certain non-FEI rehabs.

[Tsavo]

The long top does not present nearly the problem as having big boobs. I've noticed that all the top riders have flat chests. Even the heavier ones.

I agree with this. My trainer's trainer, upon her divorce, got a breast reduction for her riding. I completely understand that. I am a true D now and that is doable but when I was larger it was harder. I did not have surgery, I became a vegan and started working out.

[musical comedy]

If you tried to ride movements of a test, you can easily see whether you have enough collection or not. If you are too strung out and on the forehand, you cannot successfuly do, for example, an 8m circle. (unless you are on a pony or something). Same goes for all the movements. They come up faster and faster as the levels go up. If your horse isn't up and connected, you just cannot do the transitions adequately.

I guess that would depend on what you mean by successfully, as we see a lot of horses in upper level comps who are more on the forehand than the horse would be naturally (force plate studies confirm this) and they get through the tests just fine. They may trot their hind ends around their front ends in the corners, and bounce their hind ends up and down without ever lightening their front ends, but they do get through the tests.

I used to think that the proof was in the pudding and if a horse could do the movements then he must be collected, but then as I developed my eye I began to realize that there was a difference between horses who took more weight on their hinds so that they could lift their withers vs those who didn't, or didn't shift their weight much.

Too bad I didn't figure that out sooner rather than later, because it would have cleared up a lot of confusion....

I'm already aware of some of the videos where you thought horses were on the forehand, and I don't agree with you. Nor do I want to argue or debate it. As I wrote earlier, a horse doesn't have to be going with his cannon bones horizontal to be in sufficient collection to do FEI tests. Believe me, you cannot score a consistent 60% or above at FEI without being collected enough. Sure, there is the occasional judge at some backyard show that may give you a freebee mark, but in order to do the movements the horse has to have shoulder mobility. FEI judges know a lot more what they are judging then what you give them credit for. And don't forget, it's the whole test that is being judged, and not given an overall bad mark because a horse may have been incorrect a time or two in the test. While you are so focused on collection and sitting, don't forget there are other attributes that account for a good dressage test.

This was one ride where you commented and said you felt sorry for the horse. This pair is beyond fabulous. If I didn't already know you and like you, I would have someone that said that on ignore and never bother discussing with them again because I would think they were clueless.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUC1MWnaUPY

[Tsavo]

This was one ride where you commented and said you felt sorry for the horse. This pair is beyond fabulous. If I didn't already know you and like you, I would have someone that said that on ignore and never bother discussing with them again because I would think they were clueless.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUC1MWnaUPY

That horse is off the forehand, off the hind end, off the everything. This is textbook balance. Gal is not one of my heroes but he is a master at producing top horses.

[kande50]

That horse is off the forehand, off the hind end, off the everything.

Yes, that's mostly what I see too, except he's off everything in ways he shouldn't be. And yes, I feel sorry for most upper level horses because of the way they're ridden, and because so few of them stay sound and then have to spend the rest of their lives living with their injuries.

But then, I think the "gimmicks" that help keep horses sound are way more important than the ones that are encouraged in comps.

[Tsavo]

That horse is off the forehand, off the hind end, off the everything.

Yes, that's mostly what I see too, except he's off everything in ways he shouldn't be. And yes, I feel sorry for most upper level horses because of the way they're ridden, and because so few of them stay sound and then have to spend the rest of their lives living with their injuries.

But then, I think the "gimmicks" that help keep horses sound are way more important than the ones that are encouraged in comps.

That is either textbook balance (and therefore SHOULD be) or it isn't.

It IS textbook balance. That horse can move in any direction at any time in any gait. That would not be possible if he was on the forehand.

The one thing I will tentatively question is if that hind leg action is gotten purely from riding.

[kande50]

It IS textbook balance. That horse can move in any direction at any time in any gait. That would not be possible if he was on the forehand.

Textbook balance would include pure gaits and accurate lines, and this horse can't even get sorted out to do a good transition. Wonderful horse, but he skips in back constantly, loses the rhythm, loses the lines, steps out, steps back, steps sideways, and either misinterprets the aids or has to scramble to get from one movement to another. IOW, a beautiful horse with a skilled rider producing a circus act that doesn't even include the base of the pyramid (rhythm).

[Tsavo]

Well none of that rose to the level of taking the score down from ~76% which is certainly fair.

You are shifting the goalposts. Your comment that the horse is on the forehand is incorrect.

[Flight]

Ohh let's not fall down a K-hole!

I was watching Verdades and Laura Graves. Now she looks tiny and that is a big horse. I'm sure she is just pure muscle and very fit, but I guess it shows you don't need to be big with bulging muscles to have the strength to ride GP.
Also the term "use your back" when you ride. I get told this a lot (mostly to stop me using my hands!) and I do it by engaging/bracing my back and core. But I feel a bit vague about it. Any gimmicks or suggestions for this?

[Tsavo]

Also the term "use your back" when you ride. I get told this a lot (mostly to stop me using my hands!) and I do it by engaging/bracing my back and core. But I feel a bit vague about it. Any gimmicks or suggestions for this?

Instead of bracing, think scooping your pelvis forward or simply flatten the lumbar momentarily. Think push the withers away from your body.

A way to facilitate this is to have the lumbar pretty flat to begin with.

A way to facilitate that is to sit a little to the front of the saddle such that the curve of the saddle will flatten your back. No effort at all.

[Dresseur]

Yes, sitting to the front of the saddle, or "crowding the pommel" is a good way to keep yourself in position to be able to use your back. It also keeps your hips from getting out behind you.

However, the quickest way to feel how using your back should feel is to stand facing a sliding barn door - crotch to sternum should be pressed against the door. As one unit, push the door away from you. Everything should stay aligned. If you have 2 doors that meet in the middle, that's even better - because if you push with your upper body more - your hip will hit the door behind you and send it backwards, and if you push more with your hips, your shoulders will hit the door behind you and send it backwards. Ideally, the door behind you does not move... and the door in front of you slides away.

Actually my query was somewhat different... I asked if a GP TRAINER, someone who produces GP horses, finds riding GP less or more physically taxing than riding certain rehab individuals who I will not name

I asked Andrea, she said that the retrains tend to be harder on her body. But, she's super, super fit and does marathons and Iron Mans and stuff, so maybe not the best one to ask.

[piedmontfields]

"Use your back" = the muscles you use in your back when you bend your knees, draw your core inward and lift something heavy. You will feel your lower back muscles widen.

I have the kind of horse who will slam on the brakes you use your back too hard or inappropriately (in her world view). It is a powerful tool.

[Chisamba]

Regarding upper level riding, to me it takes a different kind of fitness. I gave an eventer a lesson on Kea once, she was at the time solid 4th level while doing PSG in training. Rider was eventing fit.

She found the engagement of core and small quick adjustments challenging, she also found it difficult to use less hand and leg and be more there in seat and back.

In other words, no aerobic or fitness challenge, but certain key muscles were very sore.