"Gimmicks", "Techniques" and "Secrets of Riding" That Have Changed Your life!

[kande50]

You are shifting the goalposts. Your comment that the horse is on the forehand is incorrect.

A horse cannot lift himself off the forehand when his hinds are all over the place. The hinds have to be aligned in such a way that they can support the increasing weight as it is shifted back, and then the rest of his body has to be aligned so that he can use his muscles to lift his front end.

I used to think that if the horse was bouncing his front end up and down then that would be an indication that he'd shifted his weight back and was lifting his front end. But then I realized that they can create a similar effect in front by bouncing from one front leg to the other without ever shifting any more weight to their hinds.

So what I look for now when I'm trying to see if a horse is starting to collect, is hind legs that are moving with less amplitude than the fronts because they're starting to take more weight.

[Tsavo]

You are mistaken about the forehand. Please consider that you might be mistaken about balance and other things.

[Ryeissa]

Shoulder back caused me to only make myself stiffer and I over-corrected.

It's shoulder blades back AND DOWN. It's the down part that I think engages the deep core that produces the instant stability. I am bringing my shoulders straight back now without bringing them down that does nothing for me. If you are going to pick one, do the down as opposed to the back.

And while I would try over the years to just bring my shoulder blades back and down, I never noticed any effect from it. I am guessing that is because I wasn't engaging the correct muscles. It was only after 2 years of targeted work with a personal trainer that I had the BOSU epiphany and that then reminds me to do it riding.

Some people naturally have their shoulders back in good posture but I am not sure how many have the musculature to bring them down as a default to produce the balancing effect. It is only easy for me to do this after 2 years of targeted work. Before that it was very hard.

No, for me I had to also work on my lower back, even BACK AND DOWN (well, I think of more "flat"made me over-do this part and further have an anterior tilt to my pelvis. I see that you are talking here more about the upper abs, I have to pay particular attention to my lower abs that tilt my pelvis.

Also, I need to keep pushing the collar bones forward, so again not overdoing work on the back part of my body but also the front part.

So it's about the big picture, and keeping balance between the body parts when you correct one aspect. This was just one example. I might be just unual in my reactions however.

[Tsavo]

Yes I agree it appears to be upper abs that are producing the instant balance though i think there is some back muscle recruitment also. It feels circumferential.

[musical comedy]

Tsavo, does shoulders back mean to flatten the shoulder blades? . When you have flat shoulder blades, whether they are up or down, doesn't it bring the elbows too far back? I really do not like the elbows behind the hip and the hands behind the pommel.

[Tsavo]

Tsavo, does shoulders back mean to flatten the shoulder blades? . When you have flat shoulder blades, whether they are up or down, doesn't it bring the elbows too far back? I really do not like the elbows behind the hip and the hands behind the pommel.

The down part brings my elbows forward. I think the move can credibly be described as rotating the shoulders in a backwards circle (like wheels on a car) and staying at the lowest point of the circle.

Try dropping your shoulders when they are back. I think your elbows will come forward. This helps me with forward hand because of this effect.

[Tsavo]

I have never connected with the flatten the shoulder blade idea because as far as I know, everyone's should blades are always flat to the body all the time unless they have a winged scapula or some orthopedic pathology.

[Ryeissa]

I have never connected with the flatten the shoulder blade idea because as far as I know, everyone's should blades are always flat to the body all the time unless they have a winged scapula or some orthopedic pathology.

??? not sure on that one...

.... but I make more "space" between the bottom of the shoulder blade when I round my shoulders. Its the reproducible feeling I am going for here, almost as if the shoulder blades point behind me.

[kande50]

You are mistaken about the forehand. Please consider that you might be mistaken about balance and other things.

What I believe has all been confirmed using force plate studies, so at this point the only belief that's necessary is whether scientific evidence is more or less reliable than anecdotal. And that's another secret of riding that's worked for me: accurate or not, go with the scientific evidence and ditch the old wives tales unless there's enough scientific evidence to support them.

[musical comedy]

I have never connected with the flatten the shoulder blade idea because as far as I know, everyone's should blades are always flat to the body all the time unless they have a winged scapula or some orthopedic pathology.

??? not sure on that one...

.... but I make more "space" between the bottom of the shoulder blade when I round my shoulders. Its the reproducible feeling I am going for here, almost as if the shoulder blades point behind me.

Yes, me too. Maybe flatten blades means different things to each of us. Maybe flat isn't the correct term. I'm pretty sure this is written in DeKunnfy's books (not that he is always one to follow) and others. I'll have to check.

[musical comedy]

ok, I found it on DeKunffy's facebook page. I do not like DeKunffy's upper body position while moving. It's looks good here in the standing photo, but he is one with reins in his lap and leaning back most of the time.

Observe the posture and positioning of the rider, myself, while in 'casual' conversation with his student Gael, sitting on her horse 'Argos.'
Rider's points of shoulders are rotated back-and-down until shoulder blades are flat in the protection of toned trapezius muscles. This raises the ribcage high from the abdomen, resulting in a stretched front and head carried high on a straight neck. The arms hang naturally vertical by the gravity of the planet Earth. The spine is straight, the torso in tone without tension. The rider sits on his buttocks and his upper leg is as close to vertical, positioning the knees deep and down with the thighs almost parallel with the saddle's pannel. This limb positions turned inward to rest the inner thigh muscle on the panel, keeps the lower leg naturally hanging, with the heels under the shoulder-seat bone-vertical weight vector. The toes behind the knees and lifted high with well flexed ankles, allowing the calfs to stretch and the heel sink below the stirrup irons.
I have all this demonstrated and well explained on my video disk addressing the ways and means of getting a correct seat.

[Dresseur]

It also corrects rounded shoulders, which the blades are "flat" just not pulled together. I'm a huncher, and this is what has gotten me over that.

Sidenote: can we consider putting the balance stuff on a new thread so as not to derail this one?

[Chisamba]

actually, i believe it is using your psoas. People say back because they do not know what a psoas is. The Psoas runs from your lumbar spine through the front of your pelvis to your upper inner thigh. it is THE link between the lumbar and the thigh. well i am not an anatomy expert, but once i found out about the psoas i was much more able to tell people how i used my back, my thigh and my seat. i will let a person sit on their polite horse in front of me, and put the lunge line around their lower back, and hold each end in front of the horse while i am standing on the ground near their head. i will take the ends and just taunt the longe line. then i will tug and tell the rider to not let me pull them out of the saddle. This has been, for me, the best way to teach people how to feel and find their psoas on horseback. of course one needs a horse that is going to just stand and allow this to be done.

some people who use Dresseurs technique, ( pushing a book, pushing a door, pushing anything) can achieve this while arching their back, which will allow the pelvis to tip down, even as the horse is trying to tip up ( collect). again, this works for many people, but does not work for some. I find people that tend to have a bit of a rounded back in particular find it advantageous to find their psoas while mounted since their body needs to be in a slightly different position to be engaged.

I think being lucky in having ridden so much at a young age, on all kinds of horses in all types of tack, with and without, i found my psoas without knowing when or how. I had to actually study it to be able to teach.

the psoas also stabilize one from right to left and left to right. no one yet has mentioned the huge habit riders have of sitting offset. ie, allowing their ribs to crunch slightly on one side, or having one shoulder ahead of the other, which very often also allows them to have one legs slightly offset from the other. If you sit opposite one rail at a show, it is amazing how many riders are like this. when i did my teacher training courses with Anders Lindgren, he made sure we understood not to always stand in the middle to teach, that it was essential to have a chair in one corner so you could see the horse come directly toward on on the short side and directly away from you on the long side. a person who looks perfectly correct from the side may often have a tendency to not be centered from behind. i make sure when Mikhail videos me that he also takes a direct view from behind.

my suggestion, make good friends with your psoas

i do not know for sure if this is true, but i was told once that lordosis is caused by a shortened psoas

[Flight]

Yes, I think it's the psoas that I engage to get that squashing in feeling, or bringing my back to meet my front. I'm pretty sure it was Khall on a position thread I started a while ago put up a diagram etc. It keeps your back/pelvis flatter. (edited to add - it was Straightforward!)
Thanks for the tips for using my back. When I'm less lame I'll visit my friends place who has the sliding stable doors and while she's not watching have a go at pushing them open (I'm pretty it would look a bit suss to someone who doesn't know what you're doing )

"Use your back" = the muscles you use in your back when you bend your knees, draw your core inward and lift something heavy. You will feel your lower back muscles widen.

Ahhhh, that makes me think I was using my upper back, no wonder it wasn't working that great...

[piedmontfields]

Ah, thank you for bring up the psoas, Chisamba In general, for contemporary industrial life, the psoas is severely shortened and needs attention (says my yoga training). Sitting/driving/etc. compounds this fact. For rounded back riders, discovering the length (and balance) of the psoas can be revolutionary. But for hollow-back riders, I think it is often less impressive.

I'd like to "think on this" (as they say in Appalachia USA, where I live) some more! Personally, I have had to do a lot more lung/heart floating than psoas lengthening to realize something like a dressage seat.

Thanks to everyone for the very interesting thread!

[Tsavo]

What I believe has all been confirmed using force plate studies

Okay I think I see where you might be jumping the tracks.

Can you please post the force plate citations?

I am pressed for time and will respond to some of the other posts tomorrow.

[mld02004]

This thread has been super helpful. There is a very good, short little book called Zen and horsebackriding-- there are some off horse exercises to find the psoas. Very helpful imo. Available as an E book on amazon.
Wanless' bearing down changed my riding. To me it is about positive muscle tension. I was riding with too much give in the body. To me it's about being responsible for my own body weight at all times. Because I have "fluffy" thighs I really have to keep more tone there.

[musical comedy]

What I believe has all been confirmed using force plate studies

Okay I think I see where you might be jumping the tracks.
Can you please post the force plate citations?

Maybe that could be another thread so as not to take this one off course. Kande is focusing mostly on piaffe. Hilary Clayton is doing studies with force plates. Several years ago she did a study and Belasik was one of the participants. He did piaffe on the force plates. Some horses pull themselves up with the front, and that is what Kande is talking about. We've all know for years that the warmbloods forte is not piaffe. There is more to dressage than piaffe for some of us.

[musical comedy]

Wanless' bearing down changed my riding. To me it is about positive muscle tension. I was riding with too much give in the body. To me it's about being responsible for my own body weight at all times. Because I have "fluffy" thighs I really have to keep more tone there.

It helped me too. The term 'bearing down' tends to make people think it is sitting heavy. It has nothing to do with that. I have never read Wanless' books and in general I don't much care for what I've seen of her teaching in videos or her writing. It wasn't until a friend emailed me a copy of something she wrote about the bearing down that turned on a light bulb for me. I also really like the way Heather Blitz sits in the saddle.

[demi]

I too, am finding this thread interseting and useful.

I read Mary W's "Ride With Your Mind" several years ago and it helped me. I remember the "bearing down" part and think I remember her saying it was like "sitting on the loo"! I was initially put off by that "gimmick" but as I thought about it, and tried it, I realized that the concept was helpful. I helped my center my own body and use it in an effective way. It did take a lot of experimenting to figure out what she was talking about because, at least for me, the amount of bearing down varies greatly from horse to horse, and even within one ride on one horse.

I learned a gimmick from deKunffy many years ago when I lived in CA. I was just starting in dressage and had copied what I saw others doing. Charles told my I was "belly dancing" and needed to still, and flatten my back. This has already been discussed on this thread, but i just wanted to add my own experience. I had a very sensitive OTTB at the time and the belly dancing was irritating to him. I made the correction on the first day, and the horse went from being wiggly to being beautifully connected almost instantly. It was quite impressive.

These two experiences are related. I did the deKunffy clinic and read Mary W sometime after that. I got Charles initial correction instantly, but Wanless' idea helped me to develop it. The concept is simple in theory but in practice took me quite a bit of thought and experimentation.

[Ryeissa]

This thread has been super helpful. There is a very good, short little book called Zen and horsebackriding-- there are some off horse exercises to find the psoas. Very helpful imo. Available as an E book on amazon.
Wanless' bearing down changed my riding. To me it is about positive muscle tension. I was riding with too much give in the body. To me it's about being responsible for my own body weight at all times. Because I have "fluffy" thighs I really have to keep more tone there.

yes, I have that book!

MW is sort of all over the place, but she has a few brand new books that have a better editor! I like Ride with your mind essentials.

A new book also this fall- something about Rider BIomechanics.

[Ryeissa]

I learned a gimmick from deKunffy many years ago when I lived in CA. I was just starting in dressage and had copied what I saw others doing. Charles told my I was "belly dancing" and needed to still, and flatten my back. This has already been discussed on this thread, but i just wanted to add my own experience. I had a very sensitive OTTB at the time and the belly dancing was irritating to him. I made the correction on the first day, and the horse went from being wiggly to being beautifully connected almost instantly. It was quite impressive..

Yes, this is very similiar. I have a very supple horse and I am very supple. I had to be more stable. I think "fill my lumbars and rotate the thigh" and it must be like a version of a real half halt, because the horse always comes over the back and elevates the sternum when I do this.

[musical comedy]

I rode in a 3 day cdk clinic way back in the early 90's when I was eventing. Then, I was not dressage educated at all. He had most of us leaning way back so as to get on our seat bones. Unfortunately, he didn't pay attention or mention that the upper body is not supposed to stay like that. As I wrote above, I now do initially have to lean back and get on my seat bones, but then I bend forward at the waist until my upper body is vertical and lower back as un-arched as possible.

[piedmontfields]

Another "secret of riding" I've been really appreciating lately: The straighter your horse is, the more powerful your horse can be.

I'm more of a naturally "firm" rider in my body tone, but I do have a wiggly supple horse. With attention, she gets straighter and straighter---and her gaits and power get better and better! And her neck gets longer :-0 For me much of the hard work of riding green/lower level horses is dealing with straightness challenges (within reason for their capacity). And I know that upper level FEI horses are just so much straighter than my horse. I've gotten to feel this sometimes on other people's horses and it is amazing.

p.s. I am auditing a Charles de Kunffy clinic this weekend. Will report back!

[mld02004]

Wanless' bearing down changed my riding. To me it is about positive muscle tension. I was riding with too much give in the body. To me it's about being responsible for my own body weight at all times. Because I have "fluffy" thighs I really have to keep more tone there.

It helped me too. The term 'bearing down' tends to make people think it is sitting heavy. It has nothing to do with that. I have never read Wanless' books and in general I don't much care for what I've seen of her teaching in videos or her writing. It wasn't until a friend emailed me a copy of something she wrote about the bearing down that turned on a light bulb for me. I also really like the way Heather Blitz sits in the saddle.

Right, it isn't sitting heavy but I think it is misconstrued that way. I found combining sally swift ideas with MW helped. I audited a MW clinic and she also talked about holding your chest/upper body strong against a wind pushing towards your chest. She would put her hand on the riders chest and tell them to push against it. Another idea of hers I like is pushing the wither and neck away from your own body when posting.

To me bearing down is easier walk and canter. I feel like I can draw the horses back under my seat more easily compared to trot.

[kande50]

Some horses pull themselves up with the front, and that is what Kande is talking about.

The ones I read looked at all the gaits.

I wouldn't say that some horses pull themselves up with the fronts so much as they bounce from one leg to the other without shifting more weight back and lifting the withers.