Force Plate studies (p/p/collection)

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Dresseur
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Force Plate studies (p/p/collection)

Postby Dresseur » Thu Aug 03, 2017 1:32 pm

In order to attempt to not take the other thread off course, I'm commenting about the ask for citations here:

Yes, the force plate study was with Clayton and Paul Belasik. The top competing pairs at the time were claiming that the hind quarters did not actually bear more weight in collection and Paul was trying to prove that when properly collected, horses do not/should not push themselves off with the shoulders, but instead, should register more force/weight behind when they piaffe to levade. The study, with his horse St. Graal (an ordinary TB) showed that "The forces exerted by his front limbs at the initiation of the levade were no higher than those recorded in the preceding steps of the piaffe. This finding indicates that Eli was using the muscles of his back and hindquarters to raise his forehand, rather than using his front limbs to push his forehand upward."
https://www.usdf.org/EduDocs/Training/L ... 03_oct.pdf

There was another study over force plates where Paul rode a horse that was not trained by him - it also showed that the horse took more weight behind when collected: https://www.usdf.org/EduDocs/The-Horse/ ... ection.pdf

In any case, I am one who thinks that in the piaffe/passage, Gal's horse is not really taking weight behind, as evidenced by the bouncing croup. I won't say that he's on the forehand, but he's also not, in those movements, collected in such a way that he can levade.

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Re: Force Plate studies (p/p/collection)

Postby galopp » Thu Aug 03, 2017 1:57 pm

Until the 'plates' can be part of each hoof, rather than on a plate under the horse, such studies are often problematic (GIGO). So, it really isn't proving what is correct, but simply what IS. In order to be of value the piaffe studies need to be of horses which are agreed on as exemplary rather than winning horses (which may or may not have that exercise be exemplary), then the results are unclear. Horses which are compressed (in the neck), and too high and up and down behind, are onto the forelegs. And all the hind leg joints must all fold (not just hind feet advancing further under) for exemplary piaffe and levade. Horses which are more in pesade than levade will rise up in a different manner, as will the horse going from piaffe to levade. And at this point the studies are on a given point, but at an optimal point. mho
Last edited by galopp on Thu Aug 03, 2017 11:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Force Plate studies (p/p/collection)

Postby demi » Thu Aug 03, 2017 2:09 pm

I read about this in one of Belasik's books. I understood the studies and agree with them, but personally, I find getting that analytical about dressage takes away from the beauty of it. I think quite a bit of analysis is necessary, but over analyzing is not balanced.

I can see what Kande sees in the vid of Gal's horse, but it doesn't bother me because I think it is (was) just a phase. I love watching Gal ride. That's all I take from the video. I am fairly certain that Gal could easily develop a horse properly ;) But maybe he doesn't because money is involved. He, of course, rides some ridiculously valuable horseflesh.

If I just watched Gal for the absolute correctness of the horse, I would miss the inspiration I find from watching his superb ability to harmonize himself and his horse.

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Re: Force Plate studies (p/p/collection)

Postby musical comedy » Thu Aug 03, 2017 2:11 pm

Dresseur wrote:In any case, I am one who thinks that in the piaffe/passage, Gal's horse is not really taking weight behind, as evidenced by the bouncing croup. I won't say that he's on the forehand, but he's also not, in those movements, collected in such a way that he can levade.
I would agree. However. this subject came about here when I wrote on the other thread that one cannot successfully get through movements of higher levels if a horse is on the forehand. St. Graal is a good example of a horse that maybe could do a good piaffe/levade, but he was not that good at the other things, even at the lower levels.

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Re: Force Plate studies (p/p/collection)

Postby galopp » Thu Aug 03, 2017 2:37 pm

If a horse does a pesade rather than levade then it is not a good example either. The thing is if the horse is properly collected then it also produces correct extension as well, and is laterally flexible. Horses do have specialities/strengths, but purity and balance should come first.

One can certainly get through a test at any level in just about any balance. The many effects of all types of training will always be there. If the horse is compressed/held with the hand/curb, there will be an effect on the gaits, straightness, lack of lowering of the croup; leveraging the chest in that manner can keep it level but it will cause flinging of the legs because the horse is against the fore legs and pushing behind, and in piaffe the horse will be high in the hind feet. It is not easy to allow the horse to stay out to the hand, ifV, and the fullness of the stride; there is not the same drama, it is quiet trusting calm with consistent tempo in such horses. Even something as 'simple' as a square closed halt ifV actively seeking the hand is representative of the truth in training, and should give great satisfaction to the rider and the viewer.

As far as EG, are the horses in proper balance and sustaining purity of gaits? That is pretty basic to training. When horses are balancee in piaffe/etc, that is a major error. The thing is a horse out of balance, ridden over tempo, flinging their extremities with tensioned back can unfortunately be seen as impressive. But that very movement is antithetical to basic horsemanship. Why not train properly? It is simple, but it is not easy. And if the rewards are for 100% submission (a la Lette's judging effect), then the outcome will (literally) enforce that. The days of training in accordance with the directives, allowing a horse having a voice and being ridden into self carriage/lightness/etc are then finished.
Last edited by galopp on Thu Aug 03, 2017 3:03 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Force Plate studies (p/p/collection)

Postby musical comedy » Thu Aug 03, 2017 2:39 pm

Galopp, that record is so broken.

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Re: Force Plate studies (p/p/collection)

Postby Ryeissa » Thu Aug 03, 2017 2:53 pm

gallopp, can you tell us any current GP rider who is showing proper collection? Surely someone is doing something right?

(I have a few names in my head)

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Re: Force Plate studies (p/p/collection)

Postby galopp » Thu Aug 03, 2017 2:55 pm

MC, sadly, yes. The age of in-depth substantive education (per the directives) in training methodologies seems abandoned, and not worth discussion. It is about appearances.

Ryeissa, who do you think fulfill those things?

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Re: Force Plate studies (p/p/collection)

Postby Ryeissa » Thu Aug 03, 2017 3:36 pm

galopp wrote:MC, sadly, yes. The age of in-depth substantive education (per the directives) in training methodologies seems abandoned, and not worth discussion. It is about appearances.

Ryeissa, who do you think fulfill those things?


Do you see anyone doing proper collection that is showing GP? With all the livestreams we have access to such a wide range of world events, at both small and large tours

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Re: Force Plate studies (p/p/collection)

Postby Chisamba » Thu Aug 03, 2017 4:09 pm

I do not need a force plate to tell when my horse is carrying itself in better balance and its a waste of joy to spend hours scouring the internet to butter ones bread on how terrible everyone else is.

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Re: Force Plate studies (p/p/collection)

Postby Rosie B » Thu Aug 03, 2017 10:33 pm

Chisamba this may be my favourite thing you've ever posted. Amen sister. :mrgreen:

I do not need a force plate to tell when my horse is carrying itself in better balance and its a waste of joy to spend hours scouring the internet to butter ones bread on how terrible everyone else is.

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Re: Force Plate studies (p/p/collection)

Postby Flight » Fri Aug 04, 2017 1:07 am

I've needed an instructors help to get me to understand when my horse is in better balance, so I can get the feel for it. Would balance plates help me too? Maybe?! I'll read those links, I quite like reading a bit of scientific style research.

I've been watching a lot of dressage from Aachen the last few days, and there are not many good piaffes in my limited understanding/opinion. A lot look like they are passaging in place, or that people don't seem to think that a good piaffe is necessary for GP anymore? I get it that some horses are going to be great at some movements and not others, but to me it looks as if piaffe is not the important one. More the extensions, passage, changes etc.

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Re: Force Plate studies (p/p/collection)

Postby musical comedy » Fri Aug 04, 2017 11:21 am

Flight wrote:I've been watching a lot of dressage from Aachen the last few days, and there are not many good piaffes in my limited understanding/opinion. A lot look like they are passaging in place, or that people don't seem to think that a good piaffe is necessary for GP anymore? I get it that some horses are going to be great at some movements and not others, but to me it looks as if piaffe is not the important one. More the extensions, passage, changes etc.
The the GP test has 3 movements where piaffe has a coefficient of 2. Extended trot and canter and passge are not cofficients. According to the directives written on the test, 'taking weight' is only one of the components being judged, but is one that some seem to focus on. For example, you may see piaffes (especially in old photos) that you think are lovely because they sit, but were there multiple steps like that, was there elasticity of the back, etc.
http://inside.fei.org/system/files/GP_2017.pdf
Piaffe: Regularity, taking weight, self-carriage, activity, elasticity of back and steps. Specific number of diagonal steps.

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Re: Force Plate studies (p/p/collection)

Postby Tsavo » Tue Aug 08, 2017 1:42 pm

Thanks to Dresseur for posting those articles. I am not sure that they are peer reviewed.

I have been trying to make time to study the force plate work but have not been successful. I cannot comment on the science of it now nor possibly after I read all the papers if it is too far afield of my field. I am not sure it is worth the time given they do not appear to be peer reviewed... I would love to see what others in this field of force measurement have to say about the methods and study design.

Anyway, I will just say that I agree Gal's horse is not shifting as much weight to the hind as to be technically collected for that level. But on the other hand, I think the purpose of shifting the weight back to be able to move off in any direction in any gait because the horse is balanced and in self carriage. That horse, though not technically collected for that level, appears to be able to do that. Thus he is able to do the work without lowering the croup, perhaps a sign of greater talent and strength.

I do think the horse is twitchy and almost afraid to make a mistake. I think he went beyond obedient. That is one reason I do not idolize Gal though I of course respect his riding.

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Re: Force Plate studies (p/p/collection)

Postby Ponichiwa » Tue Aug 08, 2017 2:02 pm

It's unlikely the USDF Connection articles are peer-reviewed. However, Clayton has a significant body of work in gait mechanics/force plate studies/etc. that have been published in various journals and peer reviewed.

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Re: Force Plate studies (p/p/collection)

Postby kande50 » Tue Aug 08, 2017 3:16 pm

Dresseur wrote:
Yes, the force plate study was with Clayton and Paul Belasik.


The studies before that, in which horses who were getting good scores on their collected work were tested on force plates, were the ones that showed that the horses weren't actually collecting (taking more weight on the hinds). Then Belasik tried it and was able to demonstrate that horses can be trained to shift their weight to the hinds, just as the rules describe.

What was interesting about the initial studies was that the horses that were not shifting more weight back were getting good scores on their collected work, just as they do now.

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Re: Force Plate studies (p/p/collection)

Postby Tsavo » Tue Aug 08, 2017 3:26 pm

What do you think the purpose is for shifting the weight back? Do you think it is just a parlor trick to do just for the sake of doing it?

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Re: Force Plate studies (p/p/collection)

Postby musical comedy » Tue Aug 08, 2017 3:32 pm

Tsavo wrote:What do you think the purpose is for shifting the weight back? Do you think it is just a parlor trick to do just for the sake of doing it?
For some it is just a parlor trick. I mean, for some getting a horse to piaffe is a goal, not whether it can do anything else well. I won't get into any discussion on Gal or competitive dressage, only to just state again that I think his horse is plenty collected enough for GP but the piaffe is less than perfect. Again, I place much confidence in international judges.

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Re: Force Plate studies (p/p/collection)

Postby kande50 » Tue Aug 08, 2017 3:42 pm

Flight wrote:I've needed an instructors help to get me to understand when my horse is in better balance, so I can get the feel for it. Would balance plates help me too? Maybe?! I'll read those links, I quite like reading a bit of scientific style research.


Now that there seems to be a considerable discrepancy between "classical" and "competitive" balance, knowing that there's a difference and being able to see it can make the difference between spending resources with an instructor who teaches one of them when the student actually wanted to learn the other.

I think that kind of knowledge might also be pertinent when buying horses, because if someone wanted to be competitive they might want to buy a horse that was already trained that way rather than one who had already been taught to shift his weight back, and vice versa.
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Re: Force Plate studies (p/p/collection)

Postby kande50 » Tue Aug 08, 2017 3:49 pm

Tsavo wrote:What do you think the purpose is for shifting the weight back? Do you think it is just a parlor trick to do just for the sake of doing it?


Shifting the weight back is how horses collect, which is how they lighten their front ends. It's the basis for everything in classical dressage, which is why so many are so disgusted by what competitive dressage has become.

My own opinion is that until we know (rather than just believe) which style of riding is safer/less damaging to horses it doesn't really matter which we choose, because one may not be inherently riskier than the other. IOW, the risk to horses may have a lot more to do with how hard they're worked and for how long (along with a lot of other factors), rather than the balance they're required to work in.

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Re: Force Plate studies (p/p/collection)

Postby Tsavo » Tue Aug 08, 2017 4:03 pm

Horses are required to do X, Y, and Z in a test or to just be correctly trained biomechanically.

Most horses seem to need to lower the haunches in collection to achieve X, Y, and Z or to be biomechanically correct.

Apparently, some horses, maybe through the magic on modern breeding, can do these things without having an extreme level of collection.

It is an open question if they should be gigged if they are doing the movement that is thought to require extreme collection to accomplish but can be done with less collection because of exquisite balance and self carriage. Maybe there should be extra points to doing it without extreme collection. Maybe that explains modern judging. I am guessing.

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Re: Force Plate studies (p/p/collection)

Postby kande50 » Tue Aug 08, 2017 4:24 pm

Tsavo wrote:Apparently, some horses, maybe through the magic on modern breeding, can do these things without having an extreme level of collection.


I think a lot of the modern wb's are bred for pseudo-collection. It looks like collection because they're bouncing up and down smoothly and energetically, but if you watch the hinds it soon becomes apparent that they're not taking more weight on them. They also tend to stiffen their backs to do it, which is why those who can see it will comment that they're not working over their backs, or that they're leg movers.

I suspect that if the horses were tested for maneuverability, those who shifted their weight back would have a much easier time with most, or maybe all of their transitions?

You and I think very similarly, because at one time I had the same thoughts about the judging. But then I realized that the problem is that the judging doesn't match the rules, and it's very hard to have fair competitions when that happens because it then becomes more about politics than objective testing.

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Re: Force Plate studies (p/p/collection)

Postby Srhorselady » Tue Aug 08, 2017 6:28 pm

Physics demonstrates that shifting weight (the balance point) to the rear lightens the front and makes it more maneuverable. The training and horse welfare issue is has the horse developed the appropriate musculature to lower the hind quarters and safely take this extra weight. Early in their Grand Prix training they may not be ready for this. Also did the trainer teach the horse to lower his hind quarters and can his joints take that strain. For some older horses their joints may no longer be that flexible. Some horses are so athletic that they can balance and maneuver without lowering the hind quarters, however, they would be even lighter in front if they moved that balance point (ie weight) back to the hind quarters. In order to do the high school dressage movements such as levade moving the weight back would be required. However, levade is not required in current dressage competition. But it could be argued that since that is the original purpose of the training it is not correct without the weight shift. However, dressage judging is subjective.


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