Exercise >> Previcox

A forum for discussion of training in dressage
Tsavo
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1527
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 2:01 am

Exercise >> Previcox

Postby Tsavo » Thu Aug 10, 2017 10:50 pm

So I left for a week with my horse on a double dose of Previcox for about a month due to some irrational exuberance on the lunge line a while ago. I'll get back to that.

Anyway I get back form a week gone and ride today and he is sound though stiff as a board. The stifle slipped a few times also, something he rarely does any more if riding 5 days a week.

My conclusion is than the riding does more than even a double dose of Previcox in terms of keeping my horse loose.

Why I jacked up the dose on my horse... We had a cool snap and my horse bucked on the line, something he never does. Being old, he came down limping on at least 2 and possibly 3 legs. He had been so solid up until then and this bothered me so much that I actually went to the barn again after work to see if he was still gimping. He was not to my shock. Dodged that bullet.

Once he is back in form I will bring him back down to the normal dose.
Last edited by Tsavo on Fri Aug 11, 2017 12:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
musical comedy
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1302
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 3:41 pm
Location: New Jersey

Re: Exercise >> Previcox

Postby musical comedy » Fri Aug 11, 2017 12:25 am

It's the rare occasion I ever used bute, but when I did I never noticed any kind of significant change. Does your horse get turn out during the week you were away? I'm one that thinks horses need to move every day, and I don't mean just standing in a field. Most horses on 24/7 turnout don't really move much. The top competition barns have treadmills and walking machines and get those horses out a few times a day to truly move.

In your case, this is just your first ride back, so wait until tomorrow. Slipping stifle certainly can happen with time off, but a week seems short for that.

Tsavo
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1527
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 2:01 am

Re: Exercise >> Previcox

Postby Tsavo » Fri Aug 11, 2017 12:35 am

He is out half of every day on pasture but doesn't exercise himself to my knowledge.

It really is the case that the more I ride him the better he is physically.

Srhorselady
Herd Member
Posts: 488
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 9:55 pm
Location: Arizona

Re: Exercise >> Previcox

Postby Srhorselady » Fri Aug 11, 2017 2:58 am

Totally agree about the riding keeping older horses less stiff. Most of mine are not self exercisers either even when out 24/7. However, two out together definitely move more, so I try to keep them out two together except when feeding supplements. Mine are all on a dose of Previcox and are ridden 2 to 3 times a week along with monthly Pentosan. One who has been on rehab now for over a year (laminitis etc) is having stifle/patella issues due to lack of exercise. However this didn't start until she had been out of her exercise program for 9 months. I too doubt that one week without exercise would be sufficient. One study I read said that horses, unlike humans, didn't lose condition until about 6 weeks had passed. They DO get stiff however. Hope he does better soon.

Tsavo
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1527
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 2:01 am

Re: Exercise >> Previcox

Postby Tsavo » Fri Aug 11, 2017 3:44 am

Thanks Srhorselady.

I have been told by a horse trainer and my personal trainer, respectively, that horses and humans start losing condition 10-14 days after stopping exercise. So he didn't lose any condition. He was just stiff. In this case, I knew he would be stiff, he was stiff, so I was riding him loosely, moving his neck around and not putting him in one piece for the first half of the ride. As soon as I pulled him together the falling out stopped. I probably should just have put him together to avoid the falling out. And this was after 15 minutes of large walk up and down and all over the property.

Moutaineer
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 2479
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 2:45 pm
Location: Utah

Re: Exercise >> Previcox

Postby Moutaineer » Fri Aug 11, 2017 4:23 am

I suspect it depends on what causes the stiffness. If it is joints, then the Previcox works wonders, but old stiff muscles need motion to get elastic again.

I agree that the exercise plus previcox combo seems to be the magic bullet for older horses who are just older and have wear and tesr as opposed to dealing with other major issues. And adding in Pentosan is the icing on the cake.

Tsavo
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1527
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 2:01 am

Re: Exercise >> Previcox

Postby Tsavo » Fri Aug 11, 2017 10:45 am

I spent some time investigating the state of the art with IM/IV injectable joint meds.

I can't find any published evidence they move the needle (no pun intended). In some cases, we know from first principles that they can't move the needle.

That's why I don't use them.

User avatar
musical comedy
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1302
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 3:41 pm
Location: New Jersey

Re: Exercise >> Previcox

Postby musical comedy » Fri Aug 11, 2017 12:32 pm

Moutaineer wrote:I suspect it depends on what causes the stiffness. If it is joints, then the Previcox works wonders, but old stiff muscles need motion to get elastic again.
I would agree with this. Especially this is true with my horse's stiffness. He is such a big muscled guy.

Tsavo wrote:I spent some time investigating the state of the art with IM injectable joint meds. I cab't find any good evidence they move the needle. In some cases, we know from first principles that they can't move the needle. That's why I don't use them.
I don't know what you mean with the term "from first principles". I think there have been studies on Adequan versus Pentosan at the Orthopedic Research Center in Colorado (or Illinois, I forget). The last time I checked, Pentosan worked better. From my own experience, the Pentosan, Adequan, Legend, etc. are not going to make a gimpy horse Valegro, but they give subtle improvements. I look at it this way...I can afford to buy it and give it, it doesn't hurt the horse, and if it can help in any way that's a good thing. I've been giving it for so long that I'm afraid to stop now. However, I did switch from Pentosan to Adequan because my horse got lumps, baldness, and hair discoloration from the Pentosan. His neck is a mess as a result and it's not reversible.

Tsavo, you might want to try one of those blankets for limbering up the back, or mesotherapy, or back injections. I would probably do all that if I were still competing.

demi
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 2218
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 7:02 pm
Location: Texas

Re: Exercise >> Previcox

Postby demi » Fri Aug 11, 2017 3:51 pm

I put Emma on Previcox early this summer at the suggestion of my vet. I haven't been able to correlate the drug with training type exercise, because we are taking the summer off, however, in general, she seems to be moving better. Even with the extreme Texas summer climate, she occasionally trots in her pasture and I really think I see a freer movement. She is 14 this year and at that age joints can be an issue. She is a lightly muscled horse and with 24/7 turnout, she shows no sign of muscle stiffness. Contrary to MC's experience with 24/7 turnout, all of my horses move around a lot out there. Emma's pasture is only a little over an acre but I pick the poo daily and she goes in every corner. Same with my other two. The old ranch horse gelding has 24/7 access from his stall to 10 acres. He is all over that pasture. He is always in his stall when I go out to feed and then after eating he heads right back out to the pasture. Rocky's stall doesn't have pasture access so I turn her out in the morning and bring her in at night. Her pasture is 3 acres and she is all over it. We watch the horses a lot and can tell that they move around. The pastures are big enough that even when the grass is sparse due to no rain, there is still enough that they are in grazing mode all day.

goldhorse
Herd Member
Posts: 405
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 2:20 am
Location: East Bay, Northern CA

Re: Exercise >> Previcox

Postby goldhorse » Fri Aug 11, 2017 4:16 pm

Just a heads up on Previcox:
I had my horse on it for a long time (3 years?). Recently, I had blood work done for something else and his liver values were sky high. I pulled him off of Previcox and his values returned to normal in a month.
If you were giving this class of drug to your dog, your vet would want you doing blood work every 6-12 months to watch out for liver problems. Why not your horse?
I was lucky and caught it. It won't keep me from giving it for short periods of time but I'm no longer going to use it long term.

LeoApp
Herd Member
Posts: 399
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 12:41 pm
Location: Long Island, NY

Re: Exercise >> Previcox

Postby LeoApp » Fri Aug 11, 2017 5:45 pm

I agree about the blood work, and also, unless the vet told you to give your horse a double dose, my vet told me several times that more is not better with this drug.

Srhorselady
Herd Member
Posts: 488
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 9:55 pm
Location: Arizona

Re: Exercise >> Previcox

Postby Srhorselady » Fri Aug 11, 2017 5:50 pm

Goldhorse, thanks for the reminder! Mine have been on Previcox for several years now and I did know that was a possibility. Mine do get blood work done fairly frequently and the Vet keeps an eye on the liver. So far no issues. My senior dog is on Carprofin and we watch her blood work too for the same reason. However, the quality of life while on the meds makes it worth the risk as long as all looks good.

User avatar
StraightForward
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 3102
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 3:04 pm
Location: Idaho

Re: Exercise >> Previcox

Postby StraightForward » Fri Aug 11, 2017 7:30 pm

Well, she is young, but my mare lost her feet out from under her on the lunge about 12 days ago and came down pretty hard on her side and stifle. I had the vet check her out three days later and he pronounced her "stiff, but not lame." We had her on bute for about 5 days. I was out of town days 4-9, then put her on the lunge on day 10. She was a little stiff, but worked out of it, but still wasn't moving quite as well as before the spill. Today I did a short ride and she was willing to move forward, but it took her a while to remember how to turn right, which I attributed to being green and having 12 days to forget how. After the ride, I had my bodyworker out and poor Annabelle was sore and out EVERYWHERE. It took her over an hour to work through her issues enough that she could really address the ribs on the side she fell on. Her S/I had locked back up, she had bruising on her hip bone, muscle spasm behind her poll, tailbone clamped down. She was really a mess. She is super sweet, but did several cow kicks, nipped me twice, and almost fell over a couple times, she was reacting so strongly in some of those areas.

So even though your guy didn't fall, perhaps he could benefit from some massage or other therapy to loosen anything that might be tight or otherwise out from his antics.
Keep calm and canter on.

User avatar
musical comedy
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1302
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 3:41 pm
Location: New Jersey

Re: Exercise >> Previcox

Postby musical comedy » Fri Aug 11, 2017 7:41 pm

Oh poor Annabelle! Hey, I know when I fall, I can be sore for weeks. Why would a horse be any different. Tsavo, any chance your boy took a fall or went running around?

Here's one link to a study they did on Pentosan at the Colorado Research Center. Dr. Wayne McIllwraith is involved in most of these studies. The problem is that just like with human drugs, they have to get enough horses to do the tests.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22533393

A good massage for a horse never hurts IF you can find a good person to do it. Lord knows that occupation is full of charlatans. I had this one guy when I was in Florida in 2003. He was awesome. Big, strong guy that was dripping sweat working so hard on the horse. Sal...he his now masseuse for the BNT's. These tiny women that do massage are pretty worthless most of them.

Tsavo
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1527
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 2:01 am

Re: Exercise >> Previcox

Postby Tsavo » Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:45 pm

musical comedy wrote: I don't know what you mean with the term "from first principles".


For example, if a treatment cannot be detected a few hours after it is administered and if the dose is possibly only a quarter of what is naturally present in the horse at all times, it is probably impossible for it to be doing anything as a treatment or an a preventative.

That's what is meant by ruling something out from first principles.

Tsavo
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1527
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 2:01 am

Re: Exercise >> Previcox

Postby Tsavo » Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:48 pm

LeoApp wrote:I agree about the blood work, and also, unless the vet told you to give your horse a double dose, my vet told me several times that more is not better with this drug.


Well since the loading dose is three times the normal dose, I thought it would be useful/safe though I will certainly ask my vet about this. The other thing is I am not sure my horse is actually getting all the quarter pill. I crush it and mix it with treat powder (at the bottom of the bag) so as to minimize him breathing hard and blowing the dose away. Also he weighs ~1,360 pounds.

I will probably drop him back to the single dose soon anyway.

Moutaineer
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 2479
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 2:45 pm
Location: Utah

Re: Exercise >> Previcox

Postby Moutaineer » Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:53 pm

Tsavo, I hollow out a piece of carrot with a scissor blade and stuff the pill in it. Works like a charm.

Tsavo
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1527
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 2:01 am

Re: Exercise >> Previcox

Postby Tsavo » Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:53 pm

musical comedy wrote:Tsavo, any chance your boy took a fall or went running around?


Don't think so. He was sound until the bucking and then not sound immediately afterward and then sound later that day.

Here's one link to a study they did on Pentosan at the Colorado Research Center. Dr. Wayne McIllwraith is involved in most of these studies. The problem is that just like with human drugs, they have to get enough horses to do the tests.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22533393


Thanks for posting that. I notice that soundness was not one of the endpoints for some reason. That makes me wonder if the metrics they chose to determine efficacy are even relevant to soundness. I think most people would want to see if it affects soundness as opposed to histology or whatever that is.

A good massage for a horse never hurts IF you can find a good person to do it. Lord knows that occupation is full of charlatans. I had this one guy when I was in Florida in 2003. He was awesome. Big, strong guy that was dripping sweat working so hard on the horse. Sal...he his now masseuse for the BNT's. These tiny women that do massage are pretty worthless most of them.


The same can be said about chiropractic wherein it is physically impossible to do what they claim is being done irrespective of hte brawn of hte practitioner.

Tsavo
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1527
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 2:01 am

Re: Exercise >> Previcox

Postby Tsavo » Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:55 pm

Moutaineer wrote:Tsavo, I hollow out a piece of carrot with a scissor blade and stuff the pill in it. Works like a charm.


NIce. I have been toying with sticking it in a fig newton. He will eat those. I need to make this easy on the barn help. That's why I crush it and mix it with treat powder and put each dose in a 20 mL scint vial so it is easy to dump that in the feed each day.

goldhorse
Herd Member
Posts: 405
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 2:20 am
Location: East Bay, Northern CA

Re: Exercise >> Previcox

Postby goldhorse » Sat Aug 12, 2017 12:10 am

20 ml scint vial? How many people know what that is? I DO!!!

For Previcox, I would dig out a hole in a horse cookie using a Phillips head screwdriver. Many people at my barn use gumdrops to hide the Previcox. Also, I didn't hesitate to give a double dose before something that I know can cause him discomfort like shoeing or dentistry. And now that he's off of it longterm, I wouldn't hesitate to use it for those instances.

After my experience, about half a dozen people at my barn did blood work. Every other horse was normal. Guess I was just the unlucky one :roll:
So now I have him on weekly Pentosan (14 yo with some arthritic changes in the hocks) and he's going like gangbusters. SO LONG AS HE GETS TURNOUT AND DOESN'T ACT LIKE AN IDIOT, i.e. HORSE, AND HURT HIMSELF!

Tsavo
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1527
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 2:01 am

Re: Exercise >> Previcox

Postby Tsavo » Sat Aug 12, 2017 12:45 am

I want stock on Previcox/Equiox!

demi
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 2218
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 7:02 pm
Location: Texas

Re: Exercise >> Previcox

Postby demi » Sat Aug 12, 2017 1:58 am

I just feed Emma's in a tiny handful of Purina Equine Sr. She eats it out of my hand and makes sure to get every last little bit. Of course, then I have a sticky hand.

Thanks for the heads up on the drug, Goldhorse. I started her on it June 8 and will ask the vet when I should get her blood tested.

haha, I know what s stint vial is too!

Abby Kogler
Herd Member
Posts: 405
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 2:29 pm

Re: Exercise >> Previcox

Postby Abby Kogler » Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:19 am

Tsavo wrote
Thanks for posting that. I notice that soundness was not one of the endpoints for some reason. That makes me wonder if the metrics they chose to determine efficacy are even relevant to soundness. I think most people would want to see if it affects soundness as opposed to histology or whatever that is.

The same can be said about chiropractic wherein it is physically impossible to do what they claim is being done irrespective of hte brawn of hte practitioner.


You couldn't have studied the literature regarding injectables very deeply if you weren't aware of the McIllwraith study/ies. And how can you extrapolate that the study/ies were not interested in soundness?

You seriously don't know what you are talking about regarding massage, chiro, Feldenkrais, bodywork, injectables, or the many meanings and interpretations of "soundness". Why you would deny your ageing athletic horse, who has so willingly carried you around in your riding journey for years and years, something that might make him feel better in his body is beyond me. I would think you might just be curious, in a scientific way, and do your own little study.

It is also cavalier to double the Previcox dose for a month without your vets permission. The triple loading dose is just that, the loading dose. Not the daily dose. Previcox isn't something you just willy nilly double for a month or two, IMO/E.

Its not hard for your barn help to wet the grain to make sure that he eats his meds. They can dump it in his tub or whatever and dip whatever container or bucket in to his water and pour it on his food. When I had the boys boarded I never had a problem with workers and that task. Most barns I boarded at fed everybody's grain wet, so it was not anything extraordinary. Maybe if in your barn it is, you could tip the workers a bit for their trouble.

User avatar
StraightForward
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 3102
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 3:04 pm
Location: Idaho

Re: Exercise >> Previcox

Postby StraightForward » Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:53 pm

Tsavo wrote:
A good massage for a horse never hurts IF you can find a good person to do it. Lord knows that occupation is full of charlatans. I had this one guy when I was in Florida in 2003. He was awesome. Big, strong guy that was dripping sweat working so hard on the horse. Sal...he his now masseuse for the BNT's. These tiny women that do massage are pretty worthless most of them.


The same can be said about chiropractic wherein it is physically impossible to do what they claim is being done irrespective of hte brawn of hte practitioner.


My philosophy is that the horses don't lie. The person I now use seemed too woowoo with her essential oils and such, so I sort of ignored her when she was out working on other horses, but got talked into booking a couple sessions for Pickle after she crashed into a fence in her big accident. The horses love it and I can see definite improvement within each session. She does Reiki and will do small chiro adjustments if needed, but doesn't put a lot of muscle into most of the things she does. Since Annabelle came to me with her right hip higher than the left, and a locked SI, there is pretty clear visual evidence of the improvements made with getting this work monthly in addition to exercises I do with her. The horses will practically push her to the places they want worked on once they get used to it. :lol:
Keep calm and canter on.

Tsavo
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1527
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 2:01 am

Re: Exercise >> Previcox

Postby Tsavo » Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:59 pm

StraightForward wrote:
Tsavo wrote:
A good massage for a horse never hurts IF you can find a good person to do it. Lord knows that occupation is full of charlatans. I had this one guy when I was in Florida in 2003. He was awesome. Big, strong guy that was dripping sweat working so hard on the horse. Sal...he his now masseuse for the BNT's. These tiny women that do massage are pretty worthless most of them.


The same can be said about chiropractic wherein it is physically impossible to do what they claim is being done irrespective of hte brawn of hte practitioner.


My philosophy is that the horses don't lie. The person I now use seemed too woowoo with her essential oils and such, so I sort of ignored her when she was out working on other horses, but got talked into booking a couple sessions for Pickle after she crashed into a fence in her big accident. The horses love it and I can see definite improvement within each session. She does Reiki and will do small chiro adjustments if needed, but doesn't put a lot of muscle into most of the things she does. Since Annabelle came to me with her right hip higher than the left, and a locked SI, there is pretty clear visual evidence of the improvements made with getting this work monthly in addition to exercises I do with her. The horses will practically push her to the places they want worked on once they get used to it. :lol:


I agree horses don't lie but our interpretations can be wrong. Your horse would heal just over time. How do you sort that out from treatment? Are you suggesting your horse healed faster with treatment?

If you are doing biomechanically correct training, do you think that might have possibly sorted your horse out. I think correct riding is the best medicine for many issues.

I am not clear on how to sort these things out in principle.

User avatar
StraightForward
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 3102
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 3:04 pm
Location: Idaho

Re: Exercise >> Previcox

Postby StraightForward » Sat Aug 12, 2017 4:06 pm

To me it's worth $50 to have someone out to get the horse's SI joint unlocked, and the hips more level and hamstring loosened so she can travel more evenly. I'm then able to rebuild the atrophied left haunch much more effectively with work than if I persisted in working a horse with a tight hamstring, locked SI, sore ribs and uneven hips. I imagine that this makes her much more comfortable and happy in the work as well, and cuts the time in third or half to achieve the same end result. Working through pain seems bound to result in a tense horse, which is anathema to producing a supple dressage horse in my mind.

I wish I had video of her walk before and after yesterday's session. Much more slinky, hip-swinging walk afterwards.
Keep calm and canter on.

Tsavo
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1527
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 2:01 am

Re: Exercise >> Previcox

Postby Tsavo » Sat Aug 12, 2017 5:09 pm

StraightForward wrote: get the horse's SI joint unlocked, and the hips more level


This is what I am told is physically impossible for a human to do.

Are you saying the vet literally moves the SI joint and the hips? What do you mean by unlocked? Are there radiographs showing a locked SI joint and an unlocked one where all vets will agree which is which?

What I find confusing is the people who repeatedly have work done. What does that mean? That it doesn't last long or the riding is hurting the horse or what??

User avatar
StraightForward
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 3102
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 3:04 pm
Location: Idaho

Re: Exercise >> Previcox

Postby StraightForward » Sat Aug 12, 2017 5:32 pm

Perhaps it is the muscles around the SI/loin being loosened? All I know is that the horse went from stiff to able to tuck her butt/step under, and there is movement there now. I've been having monthly sessions with Annabelle since I bought her, due to her hind end issues, but expect to start spacing the sessions out to 3-6 months pretty soon. This would have probably been her last monthly had it not been for her fall.

Human athletes (and non-athletes) regularly get massages and other treatments, so I guess I don't see the big contradiction in having a horse worked on regularly. They don't stretch and work themselves evenly on their own, do dumb things in turnout, and are naturally crooked. I don't see it as a need for a horse that is working properly, has good muscle development and a correctly fitting saddle. However, as long as the person I'm using is in business, I'll probably have her out 2x a year just for a check-in; it doesn't cost a lot and to me it's a check on how the training is going and may uncover minor physical issues that might be presenting as training issues.
Keep calm and canter on.

Tsavo
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1527
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 2:01 am

Re: Exercise >> Previcox

Postby Tsavo » Sat Aug 12, 2017 5:41 pm

Yes I think massage can be medicinal but I have not researched that. I have heard of that.

But chiropractic I think is definitionally only bone manipulation and specifically only vertebra manipulation. Have you ever asked the vet what exactly they are doing when they treat your horse with chiropractic?

How long do the treatments last?

User avatar
StraightForward
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 3102
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 3:04 pm
Location: Idaho

Re: Exercise >> Previcox

Postby StraightForward » Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:32 pm

With Annabelle, there have been different issues each session. The work I do with her in between ensures that the bodywork and adjustments "last". I don't know whether she would revert to her previous condition if I just tossed her out in the pasture for a month. The tight hamstring is a good example - bodyworker loosens it up, I can then ask her to step under/through more effectively with that left hind, which strengthens it and prevents the muscle from tightening back up to its previous state.

The person I use is not a vet, and doesn't bill herself as a chiro, but will do small adjustments, which I'd say comprise less than 10% of the 90 minutes she typically spends on a horse. It's more about working with the muscles surrounding, and then gently adjusting whatever is out of alignment.

I once had a traditional vet do a chiro session on my gelding, and it was much more about using force to shove the parts back to where he thought they should be, without addressing any of the musculature issues that caused the issue in the first place. He really didn't say much about what he was doing beyond that he was re-aligning a hip that was somewhat out (it was a long time ago, I don't remember the details). I didn't notice any real differences in my horse afterwards, but then he was just NQR and we were trying different things, so there wasn't a specific marker to look for for change/improvement.
Keep calm and canter on.

Tsavo
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1527
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 2:01 am

Re: Exercise >> Previcox

Postby Tsavo » Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:07 pm

StraightForward wrote: The tight hamstring is a good example - bodyworker loosens it up, I can then ask her to step under/through more effectively with that left hind, which strengthens it and prevents the muscle from tightening back up to its previous state.


How many times has the body worker loosened that hamstring? How did she do it? I bet you can do it also. Keep track of everything she does and just do it yourself from now on. There was a boarder at my barn who got sick of paying body workers so she just learned herself and now does her horse and other horses. I don't think any of this is a science.

How did you determine it was a tight hamstring that was preventing the left hind from engaging? When a hind on my horse doesn't engage I use an aid or remove a block and the problem is fixed. This is what I mean when I say riding probably replaces everything that people think chiropractic does.

I wish the lameness Locator people would sell me a unit. I would do study after study evaluating chiropractic, massage, etc. That is my dream activity for retirement.

User avatar
musical comedy
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1302
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 3:41 pm
Location: New Jersey

Re: Exercise >> Previcox

Postby musical comedy » Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:47 pm

Here's a short video clip of Sal doing a massage. He now only does the very BNT barns. At the time he did my horse, I was at a BNT barn. Now, a regular person couldn't get him. You can see how big/strong he is, and how much pressure he was putting on that mare. This is a hard job requiring some muscle.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPobdrmfEyo

Tsavo
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1527
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 2:01 am

Re: Exercise >> Previcox

Postby Tsavo » Sat Aug 12, 2017 11:27 pm

musical comedy wrote:Here's a short video clip of Sal doing a massage. He now only does the very BNT barns. At the time he did my horse, I was at a BNT barn. Now, a regular person couldn't get him. You can see how big/strong he is, and how much pressure he was putting on that mare. This is a hard job requiring some muscle.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPobdrmfEyo


I watched that and went to his site. I am going to ask my personal trainer about the situation with massage. He is pretty knowledgeable about allied fields to personal training.

I wonder who among his clients wold bet big money as to whether he massaged their horse or not without knowing ahead of time and just riding the horse? Would you?
Last edited by Tsavo on Sun Aug 13, 2017 12:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
musical comedy
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1302
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 3:41 pm
Location: New Jersey

Re: Exercise >> Previcox

Postby musical comedy » Sun Aug 13, 2017 12:48 am

Tsavo wrote:I wonder who among his clients wold bet big money as to whether he massaged their horse or not without knowing ahead of time and just riding the horse? Would you?
I did not notice a bit of difference. I think he did my guy maybe 3 times. That said, I did watch him the whole time, and he worked his a$$ off. At times, my horse looked like he was enjoying it; other times it was clear he hit a spot that hurt. Thus, I know he does something, and it isn't like that reiki :roll: or something.

I also spent a good bit of money some years ago on a vet that did acupuncture and some lousy version of chiro. I could tell with the acupuncture that my horse was enjoying it. However, it made no difference in my riding. I also used a human chiro that also does horses. I used him a number of times and saw no difference. I used that same chiro for myself many times. Don't ask me why; wishful thinking I guess. That chiro does 'something' and it must be some manipulation that affects the nerves. I would sit in my car afterwards with a 'buzz on". Other than that, it didn't do anything for my body.

This same human chiro once had a massage lady at his office. I tried her out too. It was Swedish massage. It didn't feel good; actually hurt a very small bit. It didn't perk my interest to go back.

My neighbor friend who rides FEI and trains with BNT's in Florida ended up using some practitioner that soaked her for thousands. Didn't do squat, but she thinks it did.

What works? Injections, both IM and Joint.

Tsavo
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1527
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 2:01 am

Re: Exercise >> Previcox

Postby Tsavo » Sun Aug 13, 2017 1:02 am

Wow nice testimonial!

I also had a massage once that did nothing except hurt.

These massagers and chiropractors are sometimes getting a reaction but it isn't clear if it is at all therapeutic for anything.

User avatar
Rosie B
500 post plus club
Posts: 641
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 11:38 pm

Re: Exercise >> Previcox

Postby Rosie B » Sun Aug 13, 2017 1:23 am

I used to be a skeptic about equine chiro. There's a lady I know that does chiro/massage and she used to work on a few horses in the barn where Prussia lived. I started having Prussia done periodically as she was getting on in years and I figured it couldn't hurt. What changed my mind was the day that I was warming her up and she was falling rather drastically (and uncharacteristically) out the right shoulder. Over a period of about 10 minutes, I tried everything and I could not get her off that shoulder. The chiro lady was there that day and I called out to her and said "hey, can you come have a look at this?" And she came, spent 2 second looking, told me her shoulders were out, lifted one front leg with a quick jerk, and said "There!" When I picked her back up and resumed work, she was straight again and didn't fall out in the slightest. I wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't experienced it firsthand.

I still have this lady out periodically. Bliss gets an adjustment and a massage every 2-3 months. I can feel when he needs one... he rather suddenly starts to feel a bit crooked or starts to have an issue he never had before (like being reluctant to canter L), and sure enough something is always out. Then when I ride again after the treatment the issue is usually 90% better. This lady is probably around 145-150 lbs. There are some things that she does that need to be done on both sides at the same time in which case I help her. It takes an incredible amount of strength and I am usually shaking with seriously burning muscles after having helped for only a couple minutes. And although I'm slender I'm no weakling...

There are other practitioners around here whom I have never used and I have noooo idea if they're any good at all.

User avatar
StraightForward
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 3102
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 3:04 pm
Location: Idaho

Re: Exercise >> Previcox

Postby StraightForward » Sun Aug 13, 2017 4:44 am

Tsavo wrote:
StraightForward wrote: The tight hamstring is a good example - bodyworker loosens it up, I can then ask her to step under/through more effectively with that left hind, which strengthens it and prevents the muscle from tightening back up to its previous state.


How many times has the body worker loosened that hamstring? How did she do it? I bet you can do it also. Keep track of everything she does and just do it yourself from now on. There was a boarder at my barn who got sick of paying body workers so she just learned herself and now does her horse and other horses. I don't think any of this is a science.

How did you determine it was a tight hamstring that was preventing the left hind from engaging? When a hind on my horse doesn't engage I use an aid or remove a block and the problem is fixed. This is what I mean when I say riding probably replaces everything that people think chiropractic does.

I wish the lameness Locator people would sell me a unit. I would do study after study evaluating chiropractic, massage, etc. That is my dream activity for retirement.


Your are right that is pretty simple massage to loosen the hamstring, so I can do that myself, and do that and the ribs once a week or so. I don't have the benefit of her experience in finding the other sore spots though. I've learned the Masterson Method basics from his books and video, and do that sometimes, but don't always get the horse "with" me when I try it, so some days are more successful than others.

What I noticed as a rider was that the horse was not tracking up evenly on the left vs. the right hind. The tight hamstring was identified by the bodyworker, and after addressing that, the horse tracks up nearly evenly.

It is sort of ironic that there is another thread on why people don't use trainers more, but objection to relying on a professional for this.
Keep calm and canter on.

User avatar
musical comedy
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1302
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 3:41 pm
Location: New Jersey

Re: Exercise >> Previcox

Postby musical comedy » Sun Aug 13, 2017 11:08 am

StraightForward wrote:It is sort of ironic that there is another thread on why people don't use trainers more, but objection to relying on a professional for this.
I don't have an objection to using whatever one feels like spending their money on. If they think it helps, do it. Unfortunately, I see a lot of these people spending money on these things and their horses really aren't really progressing much in their training. Some have been pretty much at the same place for 15+ years. Some don't care; and I guess that's ok too.

Tsavo
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1527
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 2:01 am

Re: Exercise >> Previcox

Postby Tsavo » Sun Aug 13, 2017 11:31 am

StraightForward wrote:Your are right that is pretty simple massage to loosen the hamstring, so I can do that myself, and do that and the ribs once a week or so. I don't have the benefit of her experience in finding the other sore spots though.


I am unfamiliar with tight hamstrings in horses, what causes the hamstring to tighten, etc. How many times do you have to loosen it? If a lot then is it a veterinary problem? Is that even a diagnosis? Have you ever tried using riding to bring the hind even with the other?

What do you mean do the ribs? What is wrong with them? Are you saying you are moving the ribs?

And if you can't verify these "sore spots" then how do you know she isn't imagining them? She is a lay person. It has been shown that chiropractors are imagining things for example and they are supposedly trained.

I've learned the Masterson Method basics from his books and video, and do that sometimes, but don't always get the horse "with" me when I try it, so some days are more successful than others.


Are you addressing a physical problem with this? Why is it necessary to get the horse mentally with you?

What I noticed as a rider was that the horse was not tracking up evenly on the left vs. the right hind. The tight hamstring was identified by the bodyworker, and after addressing that, the horse tracks up nearly evenly.


Is tight hamstring an actual veterinary diagnosis? What is causing that?

It is sort of ironic that there is another thread on why people don't use trainers more, but objection to relying on a professional for this.


I thought you said she wasn't a vet? Isn't she a lay person?

User avatar
StraightForward
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 3102
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 3:04 pm
Location: Idaho

Re: Exercise >> Previcox

Postby StraightForward » Sun Aug 13, 2017 2:44 pm

After the first time she worked on it, the horse was tracking up more evenly. Just so you know this horse's history, she is a green 4 yo that I bought in April. She was being ridden western in a shank bit, and had had 90 days of pro training as a 3 yo, which is where I believe all of this unevenness started. The previous owner had started her very lightly, then she got slammed into hard work by the trainer, apparently without any regard to working evenly, so she compensated by doing everything with her right hind, and got quite stiff in the process. So it was incorrect riding that got her to where she was, and IMO, was too green to get her back to correctness solely through riding. The first two months I did most of the work on the lunge to get her using the LH without the added burden of my weight. At first it would take ~15 minutes to get her swinging through, but she now does it almost immediately, and is within a couple inches of her RH in terms of tracking up at the walk. If the bodywork cut a month's worth of time off of this process, it was well worth it to me.

Ribs - I believe they were sore via horse's reaction. She previously worked on them, but after the fall Annabelle was very reticent to have them worked on. She is not adjusting them, just massaging in that area. Horses are plenty expressive - at times on Friday she cow-kicked, tried to bite me a couple times, but ended up happy to be touched anywhere by the end of the session. The last session before the fall, she was much more relaxed and did some big yawning, eye-rolling type releases.

She is not a vet, but I consider her to be a professional with bodywork; she has been doing it for >20 years. Most professional trainers are self-identified and considered pro by virtue of being paid for their services??

Masterson - horse needs to be with you because they are doing most of the tension releases themselves, with very little pressure from the person. Essentially, you don't want to apply enough pressure that the horse will tense against it. The horse needs to be giving indications, particularly when working on the bladder meridian, of where they want you to stop. They'll frequently offer a big release when you find the right spot, even using just "egg yolk" pressure (yawning, licking, chewing etc.). Last year, when Pickle was 3, I did about a 90 minute session with this and got lots of nice releases from her, but once they decide they're done, it's not much use continuing. I think it's relaxing for the horse, but I haven't witnessed specific, immediate improvements in gait from this work. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krSx3Kz2BW4
Keep calm and canter on.

Tsavo
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1527
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 2:01 am

Re: Exercise >> Previcox

Postby Tsavo » Sun Aug 13, 2017 3:46 pm

StraightForward wrote:Ribs - I believe they were sore via horse's reaction. She previously worked on them, but after the fall Annabelle was very reticent to have them worked on. She is not adjusting them, just massaging in that area. Horses are plenty expressive - at times on Friday she cow-kicked, tried to bite me a couple times, but ended up happy to be touched anywhere by the end of the session. The last session before the fall, she was much more relaxed and did some big yawning, eye-rolling type releases.


Why are your horse's ribs sore? Do they ever heal? My horse's ribs are never sore. What is the training purpose of this work? What are the benefits to the training is what I am asking?

She is not a vet, but I consider her to be a professional with bodywork; she has been doing it for >20 years. Most professional trainers are self-identified and considered pro by virtue of being paid for their services??


I measure them by the results. If you just go by them charging money, and you see Sylvia Brown and other psychics raked in millions for solid bullshit, then it is clear that is not the way to measure people.

Masterson - horse needs to be with you because they are doing most of the tension releases themselves, with very little pressure from the person. Essentially, you don't want to apply enough pressure that the horse will tense against it. The horse needs to be giving indications, particularly when working on the bladder meridian, of where they want you to stop. They'll frequently offer a big release when you find the right spot, even using just "egg yolk" pressure (yawning, licking, chewing etc.). Last year, when Pickle was 3, I did about a 90 minute session with this and got lots of nice releases from her, but once they decide they're done, it's not much use continuing. I think it's relaxing for the horse, but I haven't witnessed specific, immediate improvements in gait from this work. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krSx3Kz2BW4


And then we have that Sal guy, masseuse to the stars, using plenty of muscle. How do you determine when you horse needs that versus this gentler approach?

Also why is your horse carrying tension? Does it ever go away? That can definitely be addressed from the saddle by you.

User avatar
StraightForward
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 3102
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 3:04 pm
Location: Idaho

Re: Exercise >> Previcox

Postby StraightForward » Sun Aug 13, 2017 7:20 pm

Tsavo wrote:
StraightForward wrote:Ribs - I believe they were sore via horse's reaction. She previously worked on them, but after the fall Annabelle was very reticent to have them worked on. She is not adjusting them, just massaging in that area. Horses are plenty expressive - at times on Friday she cow-kicked, tried to bite me a couple times, but ended up happy to be touched anywhere by the end of the session. The last session before the fall, she was much more relaxed and did some big yawning, eye-rolling type releases.


Why are your horse's ribs sore? Do they ever heal? My horse's ribs are never sore. What is the training purpose of this work? What are the benefits to the training is what I am asking?


They were sore the first time she worked on her after I bought her in April. Then they were fine until she fell down hard on her side. I started to ride her in June, she subsequently had bodywork and the ribs were not sore. Why were they sore initially? I don't know but perhaps the way she was being ridden and/or poor saddle fit?

She is not a vet, but I consider her to be a professional with bodywork; she has been doing it for >20 years. Most professional trainers are self-identified and considered pro by virtue of being paid for their services??


I measure them by the results. If you just go by them charging money, and you see Sylvia Brown and other psychics raked in millions for solid bullshit, then it is clear that is not the way to measure people.


I feel like we're going in circles here. :lol: I said I like the results I'm getting from this person's work. You say do it yourself because she's not a vet so what can she know? Surely there are human massage therapists who get good results and do not also hold a medical degree? FWIW, there used to be a holistic vet in the area (DVM, not a naturopath or whatnot) who did very similar type of bodywork, but IMO was not as thorough, and charged 2x as much. Was she more of a professional bodyworker because of her DVM, or less so because it was just one fraction of her practice?

Masterson - horse needs to be with you because they are doing most of the tension releases themselves, with very little pressure from the person. Essentially, you don't want to apply enough pressure that the horse will tense against it. The horse needs to be giving indications, particularly when working on the bladder meridian, of where they want you to stop. They'll frequently offer a big release when you find the right spot, even using just "egg yolk" pressure (yawning, licking, chewing etc.). Last year, when Pickle was 3, I did about a 90 minute session with this and got lots of nice releases from her, but once they decide they're done, it's not much use continuing. I think it's relaxing for the horse, but I haven't witnessed specific, immediate improvements in gait from this work. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krSx3Kz2BW4


And then we have that Sal guy, masseuse to the stars, using plenty of muscle. How do you determine when you horse needs that versus this gentler approach?

Also why is your horse carrying tension? Does it ever go away? That can definitely be addressed from the saddle by you.


Well, I've ridden this horse for a grand total of six weeks, and she is just getting the concept of forward and contact. I also did not say that she has tension problems, only that it stands to reason that a comfortable horse is less likely to have tension under saddle than a horse that has discomfort from physical issues. I don't understand why I would want to work through unnecessary tension issues on a green horse that could easily, more quickly be addressed from the ground. I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that I'm trying to address a chronic training issue via bodywork? To me the two things work synergistically, and I'm very pleased with the progress this horse has made.

In terms of vet diagnosis with the hamstring - the vet who did her PPE said she had "right, swing phase lameness." I asked if there were any diagnostics he would recommend to determine the source of the problem, and he said "well, a bone scan, but no, I wouldn't recommend it." So far I've spent $200 on bodywork and have this horse very close to where I think she should be, whereas at least that particular vet would have done thousands in diagnostics, nevermind any treatment. I suppose she could still have some underlying issue that the bone scan would have turned up, but I doubt it, considering how quickly she has improved with the program I am using on her.

On your last question - I don't know. I've never used an equine bodyworker who is that physical, just have experience with the one chiro who was very physical and felt that there was more risk of damaging the horse. I suppose I would first try the gentler approach, and be much more wary when considering using someone that takes the more physical approach.
Keep calm and canter on.

Tsavo
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1527
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 2:01 am

Re: Exercise >> Previcox

Postby Tsavo » Sun Aug 13, 2017 9:31 pm

StraightForward wrote:Surely there are human massage therapists who get good results and do not also hold a medical degree? FWIW, there used to be a holistic vet in the area (DVM, not a naturopath or whatnot) who did very similar type of bodywork, but IMO was not as thorough, and charged 2x as much.


I think human masseuses are licensed, yes? Someone correct me if I'm wrong but there is no licensure for horse body workers. It is a wild west with no quality control.

I think a DVM offering body work is embarrassing.

In terms of vet diagnosis with the hamstring - the vet who did her PPE said she had "right, swing phase lameness." I asked if there were any diagnostics he would recommend to determine the source of the problem, and he said "well, a bone scan, but no, I wouldn't recommend it." So far I've spent $200 on bodywork and have this horse very close to where I think she should be, whereas at least that particular vet would have done thousands in diagnostics, nevermind any treatment. I suppose she could still have some underlying issue that the bone scan would have turned up, but I doubt it, considering how quickly she has improved with the program I am using on her.


She may have gotten better just over time.

And if the vet suggested a bone scan then is he thinking NOT soft tissue? How does anyone know it is hamstring?

I tried to find material on gait anomaly due to hamstring injury but couldn't find much other than a massage outfit that agrees with what you have been told. The hamstring pulls the leg back so if the diagnosis was swing phase lameness then that is consistent I guess.

Tsavo
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1527
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 2:01 am

Re: Exercise >> Previcox

Postby Tsavo » Sun Aug 13, 2017 9:36 pm

I find it ironic that all these lay body workers and laser people can carry on but I can't buy a Lameness Locator even if I can prove the technology, data acquisition and interpretation, etc. are not as complex as my own research. If I could buy one of those things I would retire early and just do double-blinded studies on horse massage, chiropractic, lasers, etc. wherein even I would not know if the horse was treated and would just take the measurements and do the interpretation. That is my dream retirement activity.

User avatar
musical comedy
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1302
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 3:41 pm
Location: New Jersey

Re: Exercise >> Previcox

Postby musical comedy » Sun Aug 13, 2017 9:43 pm

Tsavo wrote:I think a DVM offering body work is embarrassing.
I don't know if embarrassing is a word I'd choose, but I'll just say that the vets I know that do acupuncture/chiro, etc. are usually not what I consider the best vets for diagnosing sport horse problems. I think it's a lot easier job for them and plenty of customers. We've got some vets around here that just do dental work because they aren't that good at other things.

And if the vet suggested a bone scan then is he thinking NOT soft tissue? How does anyone know it is hamstring?
Usually a bone scan is recommended after basic diagnostics are done and haven't identified anything. She doesn't say how flexions, etc. looked on the PPE. I would think a hamstring issue would show up on flexion test.

User avatar
StraightForward
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 3102
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 3:04 pm
Location: Idaho

Re: Exercise >> Previcox

Postby StraightForward » Sun Aug 13, 2017 11:05 pm

musical comedy wrote:
And if the vet suggested a bone scan then is he thinking NOT soft tissue? How does anyone know it is hamstring?
Usually a bone scan is recommended after basic diagnostics are done and haven't identified anything. She doesn't say how flexions, etc. looked on the PPE. I would think a hamstring issue would show up on flexion test.


He didn't say one way or the other. Flexions were perfect as well as stifle and hock radiographs. He also noticed that she was traveling perfectly straight and level when she first was trotted out, but as her adrenaline level decreased, the unevenness began to show. I think the tight hamstring was just one of the symptoms of incorrect work resulting in a short, weak left hind, from the loin all the way to the gaskin. I suppose I'm simplistic in thinking that if a treatment is applied (massage to loosen a tight muscle), and an immediate improvement is observed (freer, more even gait), I am comfortable with the conclusion that a tight muscle was at least part of the problem. Anyway, apart from her recent accident, I'm very happy with her progress, but will enlist a vet in the future as needed. FWIW, she was moving the best I've ever seen her go this morning, and hind feet were tracking up within about 1" of each other, whereas she used to be short by at least a hoof length on the left

Perhaps she would have gotten better on her own over time, but let's say over two weeks of working with her, I would get 10% improvement, and then within 90 minutes with the bodyworker, I see 20% improvement, it seems like a no-brainer to me to include both components.
Keep calm and canter on.

Tsavo
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1527
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 2:01 am

Re: Exercise >> Previcox

Postby Tsavo » Sun Aug 13, 2017 11:23 pm

StraightForward wrote: FWIW, she was moving the best I've ever seen her go this morning, and hind feet were tracking up within about 1" of each other, whereas she used to be short by at least a hoof length on the left


Wow that's remarkable.

westisbest
Herd Member
Posts: 218
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 2:12 pm
Location: S. Alberta

Re: Exercise >> Previcox

Postby westisbest » Mon Aug 14, 2017 2:23 pm

Tsavo wrote:I want stock on Previcox/Equiox!


If I wasn't a completely broke old horse person I would too1 My 24 yr old has been on the standard 1/4 tab Previcox which is approved here in Canada for horses, since late March. He was in pretty good shape anyway but suddenly experienced moderate lameness in front pastern, got injected and on Previcox. I ride him 4 x a week at minimum he has a big hilly paddock 24 hr turn out. He feels way more supple in the muscle since starting the Previcox.. Especially in warm up I still take a good 15 at walk to get the joints lubed up but his big stallion neck is much easier to bend, flex etc. Overall he seems a lot friskier lol. I will do the bloodwork tho in the next spring. Good info.

User avatar
musical comedy
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1302
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 3:41 pm
Location: New Jersey

Re: Exercise >> Previcox

Postby musical comedy » Mon Aug 14, 2017 3:04 pm

westisbest wrote:[ but his big stallion neck is much easier to bend, flex etc. Overall he seems a lot friskier lol. I will do the bloodwork tho in the next spring. Good info.
Interesting. Maybe I show do a trial on my horse. That big stallion neck IS an issue; the opposite of a rubbery neck.

Tsavo
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1527
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 2:01 am

Re: Exercise >> Previcox

Postby Tsavo » Sat Sep 30, 2017 3:28 pm

goldhorse wrote:20 ml scint vial? How many people know what that is? I DO!!!

For Previcox, I would dig out a hole in a horse cookie using a Phillips head screwdriver. Many people at my barn use gumdrops to hide the Previcox. Also, I didn't hesitate to give a double dose before something that I know can cause him discomfort like shoeing or dentistry. And now that he's off of it longterm, I wouldn't hesitate to use it for those instances.

After my experience, about half a dozen people at my barn did blood work. Every other horse was normal. Guess I was just the unlucky one :roll:
So now I have him on weekly Pentosan (14 yo with some arthritic changes in the hocks) and he's going like gangbusters. SO LONG AS HE GETS TURNOUT AND DOESN'T ACT LIKE AN IDIOT, i.e. HORSE, AND HURT HIMSELF!


I asked my vet about the double dosing. He said the effect would just spill over to the COX1 system from the COX 2 system (I hope I remembered that correctly) and wasn't a big issue. He didn't tell me to stop or not do it again. In the literature, I think they had to get up to 5X before they saw symptoms if I recall correctly. The issue was mouth ulcers I think which resolved after being taken off the med. I think it was a small study. It's been a while since I read it.

I have him back down to the 1/4 pill which is under dosing him for his weight by about 8%. When he gets shoes back on and goes back into work I will do the Adequan dosing but I am seriously considering getting a Lameness Locator baseline on him before starting. It's a totally frivolous several hundred dollar added expense but I just would love the data given that twice before both my trainer and I agreed the Adequan did nothing. I so wish I had before and after data for the other two times we tried it to confirm or deny our observations. If the data existed, I would pay a pretty penny to have it now.


Return to “Dressage Training”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 52 guests