Success stories for croup-high horses?

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demi
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Success stories for croup-high horses?

Postby demi » Thu Oct 29, 2015 5:32 pm

I am interested in hearing about croup high horses that are doing dressage successfully. I have a mare that is 14.2 (plus a little bit)in front and 14.3 behind. I have had her since she was 3, and she is now 8, doing first and a little bit of second level. I am an amateur that has never trained a horse past second level and I work mostly by myself. Sometimes I wonder if I am capable of taking her past second level or if I should just keep her as a trail horse. She has become a trustworthy trail horse but if I got another horse (one already trained past 2nd) Rocky wouldn't get nearly the amount of attention that she SO loves and thrives on.

I am attaching some pics that were taken in the last few weeks. One was taken before a ride and the other was taken after a dressage workout. She comes under herself when I ride her but it is hard work. I take it very slowly and am take care not to push her beyond the point where she resents the effort she has to make.

I dote on this horse but would also like to ride upper level before I get too old to ride at all. (I'm a strong healthy 62).
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(the pics came out in the wrong order. The one with the saddle on is BEFORE the ride)

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Re: Success stories for croup-high horses?

Postby khall » Thu Oct 29, 2015 5:50 pm

Hopefully exvet will chime in here, she had one and took him to FEI.

I have a mare now 20 who was butt high, she showed through 2nd and was schooling 3rd, it was not her conformation that stopped her but bi-lateral OCD lesions in stifles. As she got older and I put her on conquer she got stronger behind and picked back up to strong 2nd level then got turned over to friend as school horse which she excelled at. Canter was her strongest gait. Just takes time to teach them to fold the hind legs and lift in front, not necessarily easy but can be done.

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Re: Success stories for croup-high horses?

Postby oldhag » Fri Oct 30, 2015 1:00 pm

It's more to do with the time, effort and pain you put in than how your horse is built - and luck of course!

You probably will never get the marks attained by the best in the world - but you can train her and do well.

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Re: Success stories for croup-high horses?

Postby exvet » Fri Oct 30, 2015 2:21 pm

Yes, I've taken at least two horses (Welsh Cobs really) to FEI. One was/is downhill, sway backed and short necked. His hind end conformation, however, cannot be beat and his work ethic is awesome. He is 17, sound and competing at intermediate with his new owner. The other is my current 13 hand mount. Though it is tough to see that he is slightly croup high, his forelimbs are definitely shorter than his hind limbs. He debuted at PSG this year at a recognized show earning 61 and change. I believe in cross-training and work hard to make sure my guys are very fit with good legs, a strong loin and a preference for canter.

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Re: Success stories for croup-high horses?

Postby Kelo » Fri Oct 30, 2015 2:55 pm

Mine is. I don't have pics handy, he's fairly balanced, but is downhill. We're showing I-1 right now, schooling higher. I am an amateur that trained him myself.

If your horse is has a strong work ethic and a willing heart, and has the physical ability to take weight, then it's possible. Heart is a HUGE factor. I mean, conformation "flaws" may make the job harder, but I've seen some reeeeeeeeally wonkily-built horses do FEI, and do it happily, because they have hearts the size of a Chevy. And you can't see heart in a photograph.

But you are a huge part of it -- your ability to ride (both to stay out of the horse's way and to guide) and to train them to do what you want. If you've not done it before, you're going to have to work your ass off to get there -- and you'll need help. I am learning as I go, with just periodic lessons, which means I think often about how I wish I knew *then* what I know *now*, it would've been a lot faster and a lot easier....hah. Not a particularly easy way to do it. But it's possible. And it's amazing when you do get there :)

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Re: Success stories for croup-high horses?

Postby demi » Fri Oct 30, 2015 7:57 pm

Thanks everyone for your input! It is very encouraging to hear of your successes. I have seen lots of pictures of exvet's horses and always admired them. I didn't know stinker pony was slightly croup high but, now that I do, I somehow like him even more!

My horse is a real stinker at times but I think she has a lot of heart. Her breeder broke her dam for a neighbor close to 20 years ago, and after he broke her he bought her. He's worked her on some big cattle ranches and says she'll do anything for him. I liked her because she has a pretty head :) Rocky is built just like her and has a similar temperament. The dam is an alpha and Rocky appears to be also. I have ridden Rocky's older full sister and a brother/cousin on trails and they are all very much alike. He's sold three full siblings and kept two, both older than Rocky for himself and his daughter.

So now it's up to me...I will give it my best.

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Re: Success stories for croup-high horses?

Postby redsoxluvr » Tue Nov 17, 2015 12:46 pm

Have you ever seen pictures of Olympic Bonfire or Gifted without tack? They both look like they were assembled with spare parts.
Good confirmation is important, but there are so many other factors to consider as well. If your horse is enjoyable to ride and
is staying sound with the work, I say have at it. You have a horse you like, see how far she can go.

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Re: Success stories for croup-high horses?

Postby demi » Wed Nov 18, 2015 2:38 am

redsoxluvr wrote:Have you ever seen pictures of Olympic Bonfire or Gifted without tack? They both look like they were assembled with spare parts.
Good confirmation is important, but there are so many other factors to consider as well. If your horse is enjoyable to ride and
is staying sound with the work, I say have at it. You have a horse you like, see how far she can go.


Thanks for the encouragement!

I took some pics a few days ago to compare with a few years ago. It has taken a long time to get just a little advancement but I think I see improvement in the way she is going. I am interested in any constructive comments.
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It looks like I have lots of "rigging" but it's just my regular reins hooked to the saddle plus sliding sidereins and then the lounge line run through the bit back to the circingle.

Reiter
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Re: Success stories for croup-high horses?

Postby Reiter » Thu Nov 19, 2015 6:08 pm

She doesn't actually appear to be that croup high. I school quite a few stock horses/appendix horses, and they have no problems going down hill if you let them! But it is a gymnastic process for them to sit and lift and push from behind rather than just catch themselves in the front. Downhill is a reactive way of moving. We want to show the horse a pro-active way...where she uses her core and her hind limb assembly and lift the shoulder sling to choose the movement, choose the placement of her feet and do so with some controlled impulsion. These horses have a LOT of power in the rear, but won't comfortably control it if running into the ground out front.

To show them the way uphill, I find that all of the suppling gymnastics such as leg yields in and out on circles, riding squares, shoulder in, haunches in, out etc, intersperced with just moving out (not running, but a nice forward, big trot and up and open canter, even if I have to make it a hand gallop to get the horse excited to push and reach underneath itself, just short bouts of that, then come back to working gaits and the gymnastic figures (serpentines, circles, squares, mixing up whether it is straight or done in shoulder in or out or yielding, the horse has more ability to lift. The forward gaits wake up the belly muscles and the butt...our other best friend is our halt. Asking for REALLY forward halts...the horse steps up INTO the halt, lightly, but gathered (lifted and thinking uphill.) Then go from halt to walk or halt to trot etc and you should feel the horse lift and push forward smartly.

How do you know a halt is really forward? Because you will feel like at any second you could give an aid for trot or canter and the horse could just float up into it. That's the sensation of a good halt...and usually indicative that the horse has lifted its back, used its hindlimbs and is truly on the aids, ready to go. Even if the horse isn't yet ready to pick up a canter from a halt, we still get that feeling on the young or reschooled horse when the halt is right.

BTW, I do a lot of my shoulder-in, haunches in exercises on a straight line at walk across arena...even using poles on ground to help the horse understand "straight" lines, and for me to check i am doing correct figures. I may do a shoulder right (poles on ground on left side) in across to the end of the poles, then ask the horse to turn on haunches left /yield (still bent away from the direction of the turn), then SI back across, maybe with a 10 or 15 m walk circle in the center of that line etc.

Making accurate school figures is one of your tickets to a horse that can learn to use itself correctly, carry herself and the rider, flexible laterally and longitudinally. Keep in mind the contact you need to adjust through the exercises, always testing to see when she will stretch up and out to her bits as much as possible.

I have had some ex reiners and ex Western Pleasure horses that need me to really keep the bridle lifted for them, because they have been moving with the neck down. But they find that sweet spot to take the bridle and they love it...because it must feel REALLY good to use their neck and poll comfortably. They are nearly always light in the bridle and the challenge is getting them to really take contact and stretch to it...they may have been punished for touching the bit in their past lives.

Another friend to help a horse lift, is to do many or most transitions from a shoulder-fore attitude or position. With this little bend, the horse has to use its hind legs a little bit at least. And don't forget to use counterbending...there are places where the horse will get a little drop in a shoulder or stuck on a rein, a little counterbend for a few strides or even a half circle can do wonders. We humans have a persistent habit of allowing a horse to make the same 'error' at the same place in the menage over and over each time around. Don't do it! Catch yourself and thus yourself BEFORE that place where the horse ducks in or a haunch falls out...use a bit of counterbend to get the horse straight underneath itself and correct that issue. (those things are often locational...identify your locations of repeated error and PLAN ahead. It is best in animal training to not let the animal practise a behavior we DON'T want. After several repetitions, it begins to become part of the mental program, the default.

Even though it may sound like simply preventing a default error is about addressing the error and nothing to do with helping a downhill horse move up, it is a "place" where the horse may be 'falling' downhill or uneven loading....to GET to UPHILL and lifting and pushing, the horse has to learn to load all 4 feet, straight (even on a bend as you likely know) and swing through from behind....every stride, all the time. (As best we can manage.) So every corner we let the horse fall in or on a straight line letting him bow out or shove a hip in or whatnot, is a couple more strides he can't be in a straight position and thus not fully able to be uphill. I maybe think of it as any step or energy that is going out one side or falling behind or locked up in the neck is that degree of energy that is NOT able to contribute to uphill, swinging, forward. :)

Reiter
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Re: Success stories for croup-high horses?

Postby Reiter » Thu Nov 19, 2015 6:08 pm

btw- really pretty mare! I forgot to mention that in first sentence but was thinking it!

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Re: Success stories for croup-high horses?

Postby Reiter » Thu Nov 19, 2015 6:12 pm

Oh, and I like how even in the earlier photo on the forehand, and moreso in the later photos where she is stepping more up, you can tell she has some real smart spring in her gait from that beautiful, awesome hindlimb! You channel that and get her step more through with that power and verve and you'll really have a lot to work with!

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Re: Success stories for croup-high horses?

Postby ProudHorse » Fri Nov 20, 2015 9:17 am

All the side reins are training her to drop her back. This is not the way to creating a good posture and healthy horse. It is also not dressage. Tie her not so short so she can drop her back when you groom and saddle her. Work on her longitudinal suppleness and balance not on creating a frame.
Compassion is not a four letter word.

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Re: Success stories for croup-high horses?

Postby demi » Fri Nov 20, 2015 3:34 pm

Reiter wrote:
How do you know a halt is really forward? Because you will feel like at any second you could give an aid for trot or canter and the horse could just float up into it. That's the sensation of a good halt...and usually indicative that the horse has lifted its back, used its hindlimbs and is truly on the aids, ready to go. Even if the horse isn't yet ready to pick up a canter from a halt, we still get that feeling on the young or reschooled horse when the halt is right.




Thanks so much for your detailed reply, Reiter! You've given me a lot to think about. One of the things that stood out was from the quote above about halt. While I feel her back has come up quite a bit since I first started riding her, the halt seems to be one of the times when she drops out. She has an automatic halt (from her QH genes I quess) but even though her hind legs are well under she loads the forehand at the same time. I have just left the problem alone for the most part hoping that as her balance improves, the halt will also. Now however, thinking about what you've said, I am going to give it more attention.

One of the other things you brought up was the rider allowing the horse to make the same mistakes over and over. I know where a few problems happen with Rocky and I need to be more consistent in not loosing energy through these mistakes. Thanks for that reminder!

There is a lot of good information in your response and it will take some time for me to "work through it". I will respond more as I think about it. I will be working toward the part in the quote that i underlined...

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Re: Success stories for croup-high horses?

Postby demi » Fri Nov 20, 2015 3:51 pm

ProudHorse wrote:All the side reins are training her to drop her back. This is not the way to creating a good posture and healthy horse. It is also not dressage. Tie her not so short so she can drop her back when you groom and saddle her. Work on her longitudinal suppleness and balance not on creating a frame.


Thanks ProudHorse for your reply! I don't lounge her very often but sometimes just to have a look at how she is going. Also, she is very energetic and there are times when I feel the need to lounge her before I ride for my own safety! I appreciate your comment about working on longitudinal suppleness and balance and not on creating a frame.

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Re: Success stories for croup-high horses?

Postby redsoxluvr » Sat Nov 21, 2015 3:56 am

She's not that croup high. My first schoolmaster was a quarter horse who showed at the NAJYRC at PSG. He was far more croup high than your girl.
I would just focus on quality of gaits, suppleness and rideability and let her tell you how far she can go.

FWIW, I would make sure the saddle is wide enough for her as it appears to be riding up her neck a little bit. Try going without the half pad to see if it can be a better fit.

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Re: Success stories for croup-high horses?

Postby demi » Sun Nov 22, 2015 12:54 pm

redsoxluvr wrote:...I would just focus on quality of gaits, suppleness and rideability and let her tell you how far she can go...


Thanks redsox, I struggle with letting her tell me how far she can go because I picture her in my mind as a ballerina dressage horse. REALISTICALLY, she's a neat little trail horse and doesn't mind doing some arena work once or twice a week. I am the one who feels that I would be "relegating" her to trail riding if I quit focusing on dressage, but really, she seems quite happy after a good trail ride.

And your observation about the saddle fit is right on. She is very wide and I went to great lengths to find a western saddle that fits her. (Allegheny Mt. Trail Saddles is a very good company!)She complained with serious bucking about ill fitting western saddles but the dressage with half pad she found acceptable. I will try leaving the half pad off and see what happens.

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Re: Success stories for croup-high horses?

Postby kande50 » Sun Nov 22, 2015 8:29 pm

demi wrote:
Thanks redsox, I struggle with letting her tell me how far she can go because I picture her in my mind as a ballerina dressage horse. REALISTICALLY, she's a neat little trail horse and doesn't mind doing some arena work once or twice a week. I am the one who feels that I would be "relegating" her to trail riding if I quit focusing on dressage, but really, she seems quite happy after a good trail ride.


I think it's sometimes very hard to sort out whether horses are happy or not. However, something that *seems* to have changed my horses' attitudes about the work I choose for them, is clicker training. And oddly enough, it doesn't take much. The first horse I tried it on only got clicked every once in awhile, but just that little bit *seemed* to completely change his attitude. Before I started CT it was as if he was resigned to the work, but then as soon as he realized that he might get clicked he perked right up and started to act eager to get going.

My current horses appear to love to work, and seem to be most eager to do ring work, which is likely simply because I click them more often when we're working in the ring than when we're out on trail.

Admittedly, they may not feel any different about the work with or without the extra rewards, but it has changed their demeanor so that it seems that they're much more interested and engaged.

So it might be worth a try with your horse, just perhaps as an experiment to see if you could sweeten up the work with a few "extra" rewards here and there?

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Re: Success stories for croup-high horses?

Postby Reiter » Sun Nov 22, 2015 9:38 pm

Kande- you're onto something there!

Since I do OC/R+ training with so many wild animals, with some kind of bridge (not always a clicker, but sometimes) I of course do a lot of it with my domestic animals and my horses.

And using some of the clicker work itself in the arena does get the horses REALLY looking forward to their arena work. And many times, I only do a little bit of that at the beginning and end of the ride, but they seem to look forward to that as part of the process! Often, the work may be in the crossties while we are getting ready and at the end after I have untacked, maybe not even IN the arena. But they certainly understand the chaining of ridden work with specific clicker work, so it has a positive effect either way.

Your comment makes me now want to go experiment with some horses who I am reschooling for some clients who do seem to be indifferent to being ridden! I haven't made a concerted effort to pair some clicker work in the arena with school work in ORDER to improve their motivation. But I will start some simple things at beginning, within the ride and at the end and keep records, and see what effects it has on each. Will be fun!

I do use a quite a bit of R+ (I tend to use a word bridge because it is something the owner can then learn to do fairly well), to change a lot of discreet behavior such as stall manners and standing for mounting etc. A rather sour 10 year old QH mare now whickers when she sees her people, looking forward to them going in to groom and tack her. That was after only 3 5-minute sessions and less than 2 carrots cut up in about 20 pieces, working with her every other day. She still lays her ears back for a second when they go to girth her (at putting it on, not snugging it) but I notice that is going away too now that she is being taught a kind of "look at me" behavior. Since horses look with their ears, she can't do both behaviors and she is giving up the ears back in favor of them focusing and working for the bridge.

Keeping in mind that animals are really working for the predictability of what is going to happen in their environment, the click(word)/treat is changing her mental program, both through physical shape (a horse with ears up physiology vs ears back in irritation) and even internal physiology/hormones. Endorphines released from her comfort with the prediction is visible in just the muscles of the top of her face which were tight and drawn and now relax. She is thinking about saddling differently now, though nothing IS different in the saddling process. But her mental program about it has been re-written. She is pairing the pressure which NEVER gets released (until the ride is done) of the girth now with a positive prediction that just relaxing earns a cookie! And there is no mugging because the cookie only comes from ears up, so she stands and looks and that is it. That is the timing part that takes a while to train most owners! They'll incidentally reinforce for a wider range of behavior, and can end up with mugging, so I also do training games with owners separate from the horse, so they can learn concepts of timing!

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Re: Success stories for croup-high horses?

Postby Reiter » Sun Nov 22, 2015 9:46 pm

I mention the mugging because so many folks believe that treat training in any form produces a bunch of biting, dangerous horses. Well it can...but I work with many animals who WANT to hurt me, and the word "no" or punishers mean nothing other to incite aggressive/defense. And no, they don't bite or mug because that defeats the purpose! But it does mean the trainer has to understand the science and apply fluent mechanical skills. Some people miss that part and ja, then things don't go so well. And it really is most useful for discreet behavior, not for the physical millisecond to millisecond dance that goes on in ridden work of the nature of dressage...that OC/R+ is still at play, but it is at play through the application and reward of the aids and contact and continuous conversation of those. I think we have so much to still learn about those dynamics....what happens in that physical conversation is like our dressage ocean. Like the gap in science between outer space and the ocean....we know a lot more about what's outside our planet than we know of our own oceans!

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Re: Success stories for croup-high horses?

Postby redsoxluvr » Sun Nov 22, 2015 10:31 pm

demi wrote:
redsoxluvr wrote:...I would just focus on quality of gaits, suppleness and rideability and let her tell you how far she can go...


Thanks redsox, I struggle with letting her tell me how far she can go because I picture her in my mind as a ballerina dressage horse. REALISTICALLY, she's a neat little trail horse and doesn't mind doing some arena work once or twice a week. I am the one who feels that I would be "relegating" her to trail riding if I quit focusing on dressage, but really, she seems quite happy after a good trail ride.

And your observation about the saddle fit is right on. She is very wide and I went to great lengths to find a western saddle that fits her. (Allegheny Mt. Trail Saddles is a very good company!)She complained with serious bucking about ill fitting western saddles but the dressage with half pad she found acceptable. I will try leaving the half pad off and see what happens.


I am going through saddle fitting issues with my 18H AQHA project horse too. He is big shouldered, but has more of a wither than my WB.
The WB's saddle fits him width wise but the wither clearance is lacking.

It's a process!

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Re: Success stories for croup-high horses?

Postby kande50 » Mon Nov 23, 2015 11:47 am

Reiter wrote:I think we have so much to still learn about those dynamics....what happens in that physical conversation is like our dressage ocean. Like the gap in science between outer space and the ocean....we know a lot more about what's outside our planet than we know of our own oceans!


I think that we've only just barely begun to understand how to communicate with horses. Positive R trainers especially, have only just started to tap into the potential of positive reinforcement training with horses, simply because it takes such a long time to get good at it.

Some of those who started learning how to CT at the same time I did (about 15 years ago) have stayed much more focused on it than I have, and have learned a lot more about behavior chains and Premack and other more advanced concepts, so are now much better equipped to really tap into the power of CT.

I still use CT every day, every ride, but also switch to negative reinforcement sometimes simply because it's more convenient. Trouble is, the part that I can't get with -R is the part that interests me the most, which is the eager compliance part.

IOW, the part that so many others don't like is exactly the part I like: the offered behaviors. In fact, I like some of the behaviors that I've free shaped so much that I haven't even put them on cue, but just let my horses offer them whenever they want to try to earn treats. :-)

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Re: Success stories for croup-high horses?

Postby demi » Mon Nov 23, 2015 1:06 pm

kande50 wrote:... it takes such a long time to get good at it...

Some of those who started learning how to CT at the same time I did (about 15 years ago) have stayed much more focused on it than I have, and have learned a lot more ....


I believe that clicker trainer has much potential as a method for horse training, but as you pointed out it takes a long time to really get good at it. I have read one of the Karen Pryor books plus some of Alexandra Kurland's writings. I have used some of the principals but was never motivated enough to try to get good at it. For me, the reward is the feeling I get when I'm on the horse and we are working together.

I agree that it can be hard to determine if a horse is "happy". But I am fairly certain that Rocky is happy with what we do together. With just the little bit of clicker training we've done, she taught herself to bow. It is so adorable that I melt into a little puddle every time she does it (and she does it a LOT!).

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Re: Success stories for croup-high horses?

Postby kande50 » Mon Nov 23, 2015 1:43 pm

demi wrote:For me, the reward is the feeling I get when I'm on the horse and we are working together.


I think that's the reward for us, and probably for them too, because that's when they're experiencing the fewest/least aversives. I find it kind of sad to think that the only rewards the horse gets are releases from aversives, but the aversives don't have to be harsh, and it is true that releases are still reinforcement so they are getting reinforced.

I agree that it can be hard to determine if a horse is "happy". But I am fairly certain that Rocky is happy with what we do together. With just the little bit of clicker training we've done, she taught herself to bow. It is so adorable that I melt into a little puddle every time she does it (and she does it a LOT!).


So she was easily able to learn a fairly complex behavior and is willing to perform it repeatedly for food rewards? For some reason, this kind of thing was a huge revelation for me, which was likely because I'd always heard that you can't teach a horse anything using food. So when I started to see the results my thoughts were that if I could teach my horses to offer to bow using food treats, then why couldn't I teach them to offer the other behaviors I wanted using the same method?

We had a few practical challenges to overcome along the way (developing my ct skills, our considerable horse/rider mismatch, my inability to find a clicker trainer who understood the method and had a good eye for dressage), so I can see why others aren't all that interested in veering off into uncharted territory. But the time was right for me because I got so addicted to those puddle moments that I kept coming back to ct to get my next fix, and that effectively changed the way I trained, which is likely the only reason I'm still riding the horses I'm riding.

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Re: Success stories for croup-high horses?

Postby demi » Mon Jan 04, 2016 3:51 pm

Just an update on the situation with Rocky. I have concluded that it is just more effort than I can handle to keep trying to ride her as a dressage horse. I am 62 and I have to work just to stay motivated to ride. Keeping her in an uphill balance takes a LOT of work as those who have been successful with downhill horses have stated in this thread (thanks again for the input). It's more than being croup high with Rocky as she also has a very broad back which required a custom western saddle and lots of fittings with trees. She is not a "comfortable" ride.

I will continue to pamper her in the style to which she has become accustomed!She has wonderful living conditions at our place with daily turnout on big, grassy, treed pastures, a cushy stall at night and two other horses for equine companionship. I have gradually cut down the amount of riding time she gets and plan to just ride her on the trails once a week or more when the weather and other conditions are good.

It was difficult to come to this conclusion because I know with the right rider she could be a super neat little dressage girl...but she is happy here and I don't think she minds the new routine at all, as long as we give her lots of attention (and cookies).
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