Need new thoughts: Half pass on the harder side

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HafDressage
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Need new thoughts: Half pass on the harder side

Postby HafDressage » Thu Sep 21, 2017 4:07 am

I am stuck in a half pass rut on my right side. It is my tubby ponies harder side...I don't want to say stiff side, because it's really not stiff, just that he would prefer to bend left and bulge shoulder out right, so the opposite of his hollow side. Anyway, left half pass in trot and canter is coming along swimmingly. Right half pass just always seems like a shit show. Somehow we both get out of position and I think it becomes a bit of chicken and egg situation as to who is causing the others crookedness. I definitely feel the crookedness, but can't seem to get it under control in the movement. What does happen is that either I twist too far right and his haunches trail OR I keep my body straighter and lose the bend in the direction of travel. SO, both suck. lol.

So, I need some new thoughts/mental tips/visualizations/suggestions/exercises. I am going increase the amount of haunches-in I school because that definitely is a little more manageable, but I also just feel that I need some new thoughts in my head about how to address this.

Any helpful tips?

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Re: Need new thoughts: Half pass on the harder side

Postby mari » Thu Sep 21, 2017 4:32 am

I can always do with some half pass discussion.

My guy's stiffer side is to the left. He moves off the right leg well, but getting the bend without the quarters leading is tough. So yesterday, for that side, we prepared by going up the long side in SI, with a slightly lifted inside rein, and *insisting* on a softer jaw and a soft neck. More neck bend than is really acceptable for a proper SI, then half 10m circle at R or M, really focusing on that exaggerated soft bend. Head onto the diagonal back to F, but *no* sideways for the first few metres, just insist on that floppy soft SI feeling coming from your inside leg. Then bring the quarters just a little bit for the last stretch of the diagonal.
The aim of argument or of discussion should not be victory, but progress. ~ Joseph Joubert

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Re: Need new thoughts: Half pass on the harder side

Postby Flight » Thu Sep 21, 2017 7:58 am

No help from me sorry but I need help getting more bend and crossover, so would welcome a discussion.

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Re: Need new thoughts: Half pass on the harder side

Postby Tsavo » Thu Sep 21, 2017 11:16 am

Can you do a correct travers right? If so, lay poles on a diagonal and do travers against it. During the movement, realize that you just did a correct half pass. Take the poles away and do the same travers on the same diagonal. Everything will be correct.

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Re: Need new thoughts: Half pass on the harder side

Postby Chisamba » Thu Sep 21, 2017 11:58 am

Travers on the diagonal is very useful. I agree.

However for me what has helped considerably is one or two steps on the rail of Traver or shoulder in, taken sideways into half pass, only three or four strides, and then leg yield the other way, the same number. Of strides, count them.

And so zig zag but without changing flexion. Move fluidly. Keep. It few good steps. If you get a few good steps, then go for more, bigger cross over, better flexion, better sell carriage before you add more strides.

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Re: Need new thoughts: Half pass on the harder side

Postby khall » Thu Sep 21, 2017 12:53 pm

For me there are several ways to approach HP issues and it really depends on what the problem is.

For proper bending issues I like Chisamba use the HP, LY, HP to help keep the horse better into the outside rein. Or I use HP (just a few quality steps) to either small circle in the bend then SI or just straight into SI. So it would look like HP, SI, HP. You could do both of the exercises in trot and canter.

If the problem is that he has trouble getting off his right shoulder, then I would be doing counter SI in right bend preferably on the circle. One exercise I like to do is SI on 20 m, change out onto 20 m keeping the bend having the horse in counter SI. IMO counter SI is one of the best movements to put the horse into the outside rein and sit him on his outside hind leg. So it would look like SI right on 20 m, change out onto 20 m keeping right bend doing counter SI on second circle. So I would use other lateral work to help improve the horse's straightness and strength.

For issues with engagement and activity (which is what I have had in the past with Rip) I use canter to trot to HP. Riding in Spain they use HI in canter to improve engagement and activity of the outside hind especially in canter both on the circle and on the straight line.

Flight for needing more crossing I would school your horse in hand in completely sideways. Initially would be in bend toward you then gradually into full pass. Mark had me using this to prepare for piaffe but it really gets the horse understanding moving sideways:) The steps are not as long hence why it prepares for piaffe and it diagnolizes the walk.

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Re: Need new thoughts: Half pass on the harder side

Postby Abby Kogler » Thu Sep 21, 2017 2:21 pm

You have received sound training advice here, all of which is to the good. But it is possible that your body is getting in the way of your work to the right. Its important to work toward ambidexterity or we do make our horses jobs harder.

Some useful exercises to help discover your bodies habitual responses rather that what you might *think* your body is doing are:

Ride with only one stirrup and a very long rein..try to use your reins as little as possible. Remember this is a diagnostic exercise, not a training exercise for your horse. Ride both directions, 20 m circles, square corners, walk/halt transitions both directions. SI at the walk, counter SI at the walk. Can you do it equally well, regardless of which leg is in the stirrup? If not, and you probably cant since every one is stronger on one side than the other, add this work to your rides every day. Get to the point where you can trot and canter, doing all the work/exercises, with the same results no matter which leg is in the stirrup.

It is also useful to ride with one leg up over the pommel. This will drop the seatbone on that leg. Do you feel them equally? Can you do the movements with one leg up, then the other leg up, and then both legs up?

I think it is really important to work on these seat equality issues. So many 'evasions' and bulges and fallings etc are really just the horse's responses to the differences in strength and application of the aids in our own bodies.

Symptoms of body/seat inequality are: a consistently high shoulder diagonal to the weaker hip. Elbows ditto. A leg or foot that pops up, usually its the weaker side. It us very useful to see yourself on video and look for: if you are tracking right, what does someone watching you see? Do they see your right boob, a sense that you still have a left side? Or do they see your right shoulder blade, your right hip leading your left, your right elbow ahead of your left? Does that make sense? And then when you are tracking left, do they see your right boob again? Do they see your right hip coming ahead of your left? These can be very subtle but are revealing of deep body issues that are totally going to affect the way your horse responds to your requests.

We can spend a lifetime correcting our horses responses to our aids but it is so much kinder to them to really address *why* they are responding the way they are, and while soundness issues and imbalances in their own bodies are certainly a factor, our own contributions to the issues cannot be denied.

Good luck!

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Re: Need new thoughts: Half pass on the harder side

Postby Sue B » Thu Sep 21, 2017 2:40 pm

I ride alone so to make sure I am centered, i drop my stirrups and ride with as long a leg as I can, draped loosely against his sides. Then I do alternate leg raises, lifting my thighs up and off the saddle in walk and trot, straight down the long side and on a circle, then back to long, draped leg. The vast majority of the time, I have, by now, found which side I am drifting to and corrected the problem. If I still don't have "perfect" horse, then I know I haven't entirely fixed my issues, and so, I close my eyes while doing circles, si, travers or whatever. I do have to peek to make sure that 1) I'm on the correct line and 2) I'm not going to crash into anything. :lol: If I can't sit straight, or if the horse still feels crooked after that, I think I would head down the road, but I haven't had that happen yet.

Only after I have fixed myself do I move on to actual "training." My horse is opposite to yours (reluctant to bend left) but the principle is the same. I agree with chisamba, and use si or traver to set up the bend, then a few steps hp then either leg yield back or go straight in si a few steps and so on. One clinician recommended maintaining renver (so maintaining your hp bend) once you reach the other wall for a few strides (even into the corner) to keep your horse from anticipating and straightening too soon. This worked very well with one of my previous horses and helped us to get straight flying changes later on.

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Re: Need new thoughts: Half pass on the harder side

Postby Ponichiwa » Thu Sep 21, 2017 4:36 pm

Already some good advice above.

Remember that when you ask for things to get harder-- and in this case, true bend means that the hind leg will have to take more weight and carry-- the horse's natural reaction will be to change the gait quality to make the movement easier. Whether that's by reducing the ground cover (speed) or dropping/increasing the tempo (depending on horse personality/preference) or, the quality of the gait and/or connection will change.

Which means the right response may feel worse initially before it feels better. Be aware of what will change and then add it back in when the fluency of bend increases.

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Re: Need new thoughts: Half pass on the harder side

Postby Dresseur » Fri Sep 22, 2017 1:07 pm

I don't know that I have tips, but I can tell you what I've been going through and maybe it will help. I was losing cadence in my HPs, especially as we are working toward GP steepness. They seemed to go flat and run. I had bend to start, but would lose it midway through.

Some key things... not necessarily in any order of importance because it's ALL important... make sure that you have prompt responses off the outside leg - and I mean prompt. If you put your leg back, those haunches must move, if you put your leg on to ask for sideways movement, the horse must go. (for this - very, very prompt leg-yields freshen this up... especially leg yields away from the wall - remember to keep them straight).

Bend gets developed through all of the lateral movements (SI, HI, SI-R, and of course HP). Make sure that the leg that you are bending the horse around is a post. With that in mind... do not twist your pelvis. I found that I was twisting subtly in the lateral work, which was allowing my inside leg to float off the side of the horse, which meant that the horse would just start coming over the inside shoulder more and more rather than staying upright. (basically, I put my outside leg back, and that would cause my inside leg to slip forward. The more I pushed the HP, the worse it got.) Again, the horse moves off the legs, you don't contort yourself in an effort to make the horse move.

With that in mind - sit in the direction of the movement - not over the outside hind. This takes stability and core strength to hold yourself there rather than falling over the outside leg.

Find out where the horse is losing bend - is it that they are grabbing a rein and stiffening that way, or are they losing bend in their body. Each issue has a difference fix. If it's in the rein, keep the hh coming, if it's in the body, check the reactions off the outside leg and what your inside leg is doing - for both issues - make sure you are not pushing too far sideways too fast.

Point the ears where you want to go. This is more relevant as the HPs get steeper, but it is very important for me at least to sight the letter through the horse's ears - so, a bit of shoulder in, point the ears, ask over.

Forward first, sideways second. I would start rushing over sideways in order to "make the letter" which kills bend. A staircase pattern helped this. So, HP, SI, HP, SI, HP, SI. To really get this in my brain, I had to do a bit of HP, straighten - then tiny SI and HP. It also helped me to think about slowing or holding the shoulders back rather than rushing sideways.

Why do I say SI instead of HI for HP? Because if you let the haunches lead, and you get that in your and your horse's muscle memory - you will be in trouble when it's time for zig-zags.

Addressing these things essentially fixed my HPs across the board (lower level horses just learning it to Gala).

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Re: Need new thoughts: Half pass on the harder side

Postby Tsavo » Fri Sep 22, 2017 2:37 pm

Good point about not letting the haunches lead. That's why I specified "correct" Travers. If it is correct and not leg yieldy, it is not possible for the haunches to lead even on the steep diagonal.

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Re: Need new thoughts: Half pass on the harder side

Postby calvin » Fri Sep 22, 2017 2:46 pm

I think this is a quote attributed to Kyra Kyrklund as to a better half pass (travers) - but it was "point your knees" in the direction to which you are travelling.

I now have to think through the rationale for that advice. Perhaps some one else can remember the quote, and more importantly, the why!

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Re: Need new thoughts: Half pass on the harder side

Postby Tsavo » Fri Sep 22, 2017 4:08 pm

calvin wrote:I think this is a quote attributed to Kyra Kyrklund as to a better half pass (travers) - but it was "point your knees" in the direction to which you are travelling.

I now have to think through the rationale for that advice. Perhaps some one else can remember the quote, and more importantly, the why!


That rings a vague bell though I am not sure. If I had to guess about that advice I would say if you are focusing on pointing your knees (only) then you are less likely to twist incorrectly at the waist. But i think i disagree with that. As HP is Travers (on a diagonal), you want your shoulders square to the horse's shoulders which themselves are both pointing towards the letter. The travers displaces the horse's hips and the rider's hip away from the movement to accommodate the bend. So with respect to let's say C, the horse and rider hips are square to the short side and the shoulders of both are displaced towards the letter at the end of the diagonal.

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Re: Need new thoughts: Half pass on the harder side

Postby tlkidding » Fri Sep 22, 2017 8:22 pm

This is pretty specific to my riding but something to check - for our difficult HP, the first issue to correct was that I was not keeping contact with the inside seat bone. The way my horse initiated the HP and twisted dropped me off the inside seat bone and onto the outside. Then he'd stop going sideways from the leg (because I was pushing his back/hips down on one side) and I'd bear down even more on the outside seat bone trying to drive him over and away from it. He also wasn't as respectful of the sideways leg aid on that side, likely because I had been blocking him.

So I took a while to fix and I think it came about as I kept working on moving my weight over the other seat bone every few strides and my horse got stronger and more correct through his body. And I also got stern about the sideways response to my leg being equal. I'd say it took about 2 years total to get the HP feeling equal on both sides.

We do still have an unequal HP Z/Z at the canter depending on which hand I am holding the whip but our original bad side now has a more sideways response to the leg so I keep the whip on the other side most of the time.

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Re: Need new thoughts: Half pass on the harder side

Postby demi » Sat Sep 23, 2017 1:08 am

Just want to say this is a very good thread. I am getting a lot out of it.

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Re: Need new thoughts: Half pass on the harder side

Postby Tsavo » Sat Sep 23, 2017 3:05 pm

I just want to add because I think it is relevant...

Because HP is travers, the only reason it might be more difficult is because you don't have the rail to guide the movement in your eye and in space. I often ride on the inside track to completely avoid any help from the rail. If you do this, I think people who can do correct travers can instantly do correct HP. It is literally the same movement albeit without help from the rail. The rail help with travers makes HP seem harder. To wean off the rail, use the poles. Then do HP/travers 10 feet away from the poles. Then realize you don't need the poles and are just doing HP/travers anywhere in the ring you want.

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Re: Need new thoughts: Half pass on the harder side

Postby HafDressage » Sat Sep 23, 2017 4:31 pm

Thank you everyone for the responses!!! I am going to try some of these exercises. I think I'll start with the counter SI and trying to lay some poles on the ground on the diagonal.

It's definitely that I get out of position, but that becomes a circular thing where I get out of position, he gets out of position, then I can't get back in position.

So I'll work on improving the quality of all our lateral stuff in the hopes of making it easier for him and keeping my body more in position. Thanks for the the tips and any other continued thoughts are most welcome! :)

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Re: Need new thoughts: Half pass on the harder side

Postby lorilu » Sun Sep 24, 2017 1:18 am

Very useful and timely thread for me. Great ideas thanks all. the HP-LY-HP has really helped my guy get off his left shoulder.
One thing that has helped me is realizing that the outside rein really does control the angle of the line I am traveling on. ALso, I was asking for too steep and/or too much bend..... we are third level, not GP!!

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Re: Need new thoughts: Half pass on the harder side

Postby Tsavo » Sun Sep 24, 2017 5:11 pm

HafDressage wrote:It's definitely that I get out of position, but that becomes a circular thing where I get out of position, he gets out of position, then I can't get back in position.


One technique that has really helped me is watching elite riders in real life or on video. I focus on what they are NOT doing also. If they are not doing X then I focus on not doing X and try Y and Z and A and B and C to find what is necessary to learn something. So if elite riders don't twist or don't life their knee then I focus on not doing those things and just try something else. What this means is I may not know what the correct thing to do is but I damn well know what isn't correct. Just avoiding what you know isn't correct can help you target your experimentation towards the right answer.

I guess this is mainly for visual learners who can see what elite riders are and are not doing. But if you audit, anyone can learn to spot these things.

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Re: Need new thoughts: Half pass on the harder side

Postby piedmontfields » Tue Sep 26, 2017 2:27 pm

Dresser wrote: Point the ears where you want to go. This is more relevant as the HPs get steeper, but it is very important for me at least to sight the letter through the horse's ears - so, a bit of shoulder in, point the ears, ask over.

Forward first, sideways second. I would start rushing over sideways in order to "make the letter" which kills bend. A staircase pattern helped this. So, HP, SI, HP, SI, HP, SI. To really get this in my brain, I had to do a bit of HP, straighten - then tiny SI and HP. It also helped me to think about slowing or holding the shoulders back rather than rushing sideways.

Why do I say SI instead of HI for HP? Because if you let the haunches lead, and you get that in your and your horse's muscle memory - you will be in trouble when it's time for zig-zags.

Addressing these things essentially fixed my HPs across the board (lower level horses just learning it to Gala).


I quote so that I can say ditto! :D The most common challenge I see with horses and riders who "know half pass" but want to improve is not enough bend or haunches leading.

The other learning shift I've been going though over the past year is balancing the bend and position of HP with added energy and cadence. We are/were (before my injury) not at a point of a reliable cadenced, energetic HP both ways. Some steps yes, but not the whole thing. This is back to that useful point made by ?Mari that there is a huge difference between a 3rd level and a GP half pass. So be aware of where you are in your journey. Yet, the basics are behind both.

Hope you report back on your experiments OP!


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