Seat Spinoff - Seat usage

[HafDressage]

The CDK thread got me thinking a bit about different philosophies on the use of the seat.

Most of the trainers I've worked with advocate a sort of following quiet seat that is sort of just balanced, but passive. My new trainer, however, is a big advocate of "creating the motion" with your seat. So, more of a the seat generates the gaits rather than the seat follows the gaits.

SO, I was just curious how people think of, describe, use their seat.

[Chisamba]

I have seen small riders with horses that have sore backs, and it seems to me that the biggest cause of that is the attempt to use the seat to generate gait amplitude.

i am therefore definitely not an advocate of it, however, nor do i believe you follow the gait passively, its a matter of timing, if you are dancing with a partner you both move at the same time, following a particular tempo, to me this is why tempo is one of the most important aspects of horse riding. once you have established tempo it is possible for both partners to move in the same time. this allows for a more elastic relationship between seat and horses back, which allows for better connection from hind to bit.

jmho

[Flight]

I sort of agree, I used to be taught to "drive" with my seat and push with my seat, but all I got was tired. Different instructor was horse goes from the leg, but you follow with your seat, and you can "hold" with your seat. If I need to quicken the tempo I can quicken my seat, or my rising trot, or slow the tempo by slowing, but no big movement or pushing with it. Horse goes from the leg.

[piedmontfields]

Well, I've been trained/influenced by CdeK influenced people, so my understanding is:

The seat can harmonize (blend with the horse's back).
The seat can energize (drive the motion of the horse's back).
The seat can hold (restrain the motion of the horse's back, as in a half halt).

So I am not "anti-seat" for any of these activities. It is not weird to me that we might go through all 3 basic actions quite routinely. That said, I do not think of "energizing" or driving as a lifestyle, but rather a matter of seconds!

JJ Tate often teaches "jump in with your seat" as a way to 1. show the horse what you want/lead the way with your seat and 2. don't jump in with your hand.

[Dresseur]

My favorite subject!!!

I think of my self as someone who uses the seat to create and maintain. Even if I'm settled into a forward working trot on one of the green horses I've been riding, I'm ready to send energy forward. I personally think that the word "drive" gets people thinking about heavy, driving seats that hollow the horse's back - so I'm making an effort to not use that word. I think of it more as an intent for forward energy. You can do this by quickening the tempo in the posting trot, or by posting with a bit more oomph (positive tension in the rider's body), or in sitting trot - it's about knitting together the back and shoulders and increasing the positive tension with a forward feeling intent. The maintaining aspect comes from being ready to hold with the seat or send forward with the seat, even if that means being out of rhythm for a few strides.

I always make room for the horse's back with my seat - so on a younger or greener horse I will distribute more weight across my thighs, whereas on Gala, I sit fully (hopefully not like a sack of potatoes ) The leg or the whip then becomes back up for the seat aids, but I find that if a horse is reasonably straight, and the rider is reasonably well positioned, even very green horses respond to the back when it's used in this manner.

The more upper level the horse (again, dependent on what they've been trained to follow), the horse follows the seat and back - so leg is used to increase activity, but I have a fair amount of forward intent in my posture and I set the rhythm that I want in my seat. If the horse falls below that or falls out behind, I will swing my seat or send forward for half a stride to bring the hind end along, if it's fallen behind because the activity has slowed too much, I will use my leg to make the tempo more lively. When you keep the hind end under the mass and lively, you can let go up front, no matter what the level of the horse. It's the whole back to front idea - it's just a matter of how you achieve that. I definitely use my seat and then the back up aids when necessary.

[piedmontfields]

Dresseur's description of the setting/supporting each gait intersects very well with what I've been learning. It is very different from a constantly driving seat. It's like a seat with "expectations" for the horse! I have also seen very green horses respond well to this (with a less deep seat/more weight in thighs as appropriate).

[HafDressage]

Very interesting to so far!

Piedmontfields & Dressur - I think your conceptualizations are what my trainer is trying to convey. She doesn't mean a deep leaning back driving seat, but rather that the seat/seatbones sort of work in an active way towards creating movement.

So what I will say is that, in the canter, which is my boy's toughest way, sort of actively "working" my seat has really helped. He of a cart horse build and super duper lazy and so being more energetic with my seat seems to keep his hind leg more active. My former trainer was all about not letting my seat move in the canter at all (which I disagree with) and almost stopping the full motion of allowing my seat to come through, so this is a huge change for me from my last trainer but seems to be working with him.

The one issue I'm having with this new method of seat movement, speaks a bit to Flight's point, which is that it is kind of exhausting. Definitely more exhausting on the right side where his canter is tougher and and I'm perhaps not riding it as well. I sort of find myself being like "oh shit I've stopped working this seat and trying to correct myself" and then trying to get back to it.

So, overall, it's a big change and I'm trying to figure out really where I stand on it philosophically. One thing I do find interesting is that I'm really at the point where I believe there is no such thing as "classical dressage." I think there are multiple classically-based training methods, but each with their own nuances and different ways of achieving the end result - an end result that I think most classical schools of thought might agree on the "look of" even if finding slightly different perhaps equifinal paths to get there.

[piedmontfields]

I have probably mentioned this before, but one of the ways that JJ teaches the integrated seat (where the upper body of the rider is integrated into the lower body, and the human is integrated into the horse's movement) is to emphasize the role of the shoulders.

The shoulders can be an "amplifier" of the sit bones. So, if I need more bend in my left lead canter for example (which I always do!), I might ride the canter with the slight action of "Left shoulder back, left shoulder back, left shoulder back, right shoulder back / repeat" in time with the foot falls. I can do that movement with different degrees of intensity as needed. I might do this every quarter of a circle, or just in preparation for a corner/movement/etc. as needed. When I'm happy with the bend but need more engagement or thoroughness, I will likely go back and forth between left and right shoulder back for a couple of strides to help put the horse more on the seat.

This movement occurs with the "buddha torso", so there is no flapping of the arms and the shoulder action drops down into the sit bone on that side.

If you watch this recent video of JJ on a 3/4 Connemara (who is fairly green to Grand Prix) named Kynynmont Gunsmoke's Gideon, you will see several very obvious places that she uses this technique:
https://onedrive.live.com/?authkey=%21A ... 17&o=OneUp

[Chisamba]

I do not start to try and influence the back with the seat until a horse is balanced enough to have its hind legs more under. You do not herd sheep from the middle of the herd, because some run forward and some run backward. Same applies with the back, if you start pushing energy forward from the seat before the hind legs are under, you lose the hocks backward, riders with active backs have active whips to push the back end with a whip to push them under and activate them. the back and the hand of the rider should always make room for the hind end to step forward else you end up with Totilas, which is okay i guess since he won everything.

[Tsavo]

I do not start to try and influence the back with the seat until a horse is balanced enough to have its hind legs more under. You do not herd sheep from the middle of the herd, because some run forward and some run backward. Same applies with the back, if you start pushing energy forward from the seat before the hind legs are under, you lose the hocks backward, riders with active backs have active whips to push the back end with a whip to push them under and activate them. the back and the hand of the rider should always make room for the hind end to step forward else you end up with Totilas, which is okay i guess since he won everything.

That's a very clear way to state it. I think most people will get that analogy.

In re Gal/Totilas I have heard that type of riding labeled as descente des jambes. So he is just using hand and seat most of the time.

I have been admiring Alyssa Pitts a lot lately. She has one of the best sitting trot techniques I have seen. In a clinic, Hassler told her she "owns" the trot because of this in my opinion. Anyway, watching her is to see what Chisamba is talking about in terms of hind legs under and effortlessly be a mile in front of her leg. That is what it means to have the horse in one piece.

This video or another from the clinic contains Hassler's comment.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EMnMiXqNEQ

[khall]

Tsavo this is a GOV gelding by Quarterback out of a Sandro Hit mare.. He was at the 2009 GOV inspections as a foal and was a spectacular moving baby then. He was born to move this way. I do like the rider's seat, she can ride that big moving boy.

I have been able to see quite a few of the Quarterback babies as foals and have loved all of them. Kind of wished I had taken the chance and tried frozen with him when I was breeding GOV. They seem to have good minds as well.

http://www.hilltopfarminc.com/stallion/qredit/

We saw Qredit at the 2008 GOV inspections and loved his movement as well. Quarterback put some really nice canters on those horses even as foals you could see their mechanics and how natural they were.

[khall]

Haf, this video really helped me with the canter seat. I think of this movement with a shorter circle for collection and a longer larger circle for lengthened/extended canter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fbbm_U9MdPc

[Tsavo]

Tsavo this is a GOV gelding by Quarterback out of a Sandro Hit mare.. He was at the 2009 GOV inspections as a foal and was a spectacular moving baby then. He was born to move this way. I do like the rider's seat, she can ride that big moving boy.

I have been able to see quite a few of the Quarterback babies as foals and have loved all of them. Kind of wished I had taken the chance and tried frozen with him when I was breeding GOV. They seem to have good minds as well.

http://www.hilltopfarminc.com/stallion/qredit/

We saw Qredit at the 2008 GOV inspections and loved his movement as well. Quarterback put some really nice canters on those horses even as foals you could see their mechanics and how natural they were.

Thanks for that info. I don't know breeding.

While this horse has a good hind leg, riders like Pitts and my GP instructor can get the same result of hinds under and a mile in front on any trained horse. It won't be as expressive or have the same ROM but it will be there. And they will put any trained horse in one piece.

[Tsavo]

Haf, this video really helped me with the canter seat. I think of this movement with a shorter circle for collection and a longer larger circle for lengthened/extended canter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fbbm_U9MdPc

That's a decent video.

I have taken a lesson on a simulator and I find the ROM to be a fraction of that of a real horse. I wouldn't do another lesson on it at this point.