In Which I Seek ze Legerete (long)

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Abby Kogler
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In Which I Seek ze Legerete (long)

Postby Abby Kogler » Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:02 pm

So, I did my four day audition rides with Bertrand Ravoux to be accepted in the Legerete USA Trainer Course.

In 1991, when I lived in Ashfield MA and was teaching in the riding program at Smith, I bought Another Horsemanship by JC Racinet. I grew up in SoCal watching Hilda Gurney and Charles de Kunffy. I had seen Reiner Klmke at the 84 Olympics. I had watched Dominique Barbier when he was at the Sun Valley Equestrian Center in the late 1970s. I saw George Morris and Robert Dover do their Pas de Duex demos at Madison Square Garden. I had taken some lessons with Janet Moulding and audited a lot of dressage clinics; Todd Flettrich, Dorothy Morkis, Sue Blinks, Charles, Hilda, many others. I always liked watching dressage. I also grew up watching the Foxfield Drill Team. I love to jump and did the h/j thing in the days before everybody put their asses skyward and we sat our canters. I also did the equitation and specialized in that with my students so they darn well sat their canters and did balanced changes and countercanters etc.

The 'drive in to the hand' and constant half halt/rebalance thing never made sense to me in a physiological way. A horse moving in balance shouldnt need to be constantly corrected. I saw so much misunderstanding of 'contact' and in so many cases it just meant holding while you kicked. I also have always had an interest in soundness and rehabbing and wondered why so many dressage horses had hock and neck issues.

Another Horsemanship really interested me. The relaxation of the jaw being the key to balance seemed very interesting and from an anatomical point of view made sense to me. I also met people on rec.eq who had worked with Racinet and the whole concept intrigued me.

So I read the other things I could find as Racinet wrote them and I read Baucher. It just made sense to me.

That reading led me to Phillippe Karl. Between Racinets book Falling for Fallacies and Karls book Twisted Truths of Modern Dressage I was really interested the differences between what I saw at many barns and what I was reading and seeing in the Karl and in Lisa Maxwells DVD about Racinet.
But nobody was following the work and I had to try to figure it out on my own.

Three years ago I think Kit West of Twelve Oaks Farm in La Cresta CA, about an hour north west of me, posted on Facebook her interest in PK and that the were going to be getting Bertrand Ravoux for a series of Trainer Course clinics. The first clinics were in Flagstaff AZ and I was not able to go. Weather was an issue and Kit offered to host the clinics at her farm in La Cresta.

So I started auditing them. They are four days long, with Bertrand giving lessons to the participants and then the participants practice teaching on test riders. I audited for a year and a half, a total of five four day clinics. One of the Trainer trainees dropped out and Kit asked if I wanted to try for the spot. I have not ridden much in the last two years and not at all in the last year cause of my tendon surgeries but Bertrand understood and said I could just walk or do what I could. He had seen me attend on crutches and in a boot for the last year so I think he could tell I was genuinely interested and committed >;->

So I did.

It is very interesting work. It is not easy work.

The best way I know to explain the difference between PK and Legerete and the standard I guess I can call German system is that the French classical motif would be Balance before Movement, and the German would be From Movement Comes Balance. The French school believes everything start with a relaxed jaw and straightness. Everything. So from the beginning you ask/show the horse to relax the jaw and seek the bit/contact. The intital work of teaching the horse to relax the jaw is done on the corners of the mouth, not the bars or the tongue. This is why there is this perception/misconception that PK riders just fall around with their hands in the air yawing on the mouth. This could not be further from the truth.

I have watched the DVDS and read the books for years and years. I have audited the Bertrand clinics and also Nicole Weinague (sp) But being in the clinic on one of my own horses and having Bertrand talk me through the flexions and the work was really good. I understood so much more clearly the theory and the application.

I rode my KWPN giveaway Lover, aka George. George was a Craigslist freebie who had been imported as a young horse and had a solid show career to 3rd. He had grown very unhappy in his work and had ringbone and had bucked his rider off badly. She love him but was afraid to ride him again. I brought him home, took off his shoes and degree pads, addressed his body issues, rode him bareback and in a bitless or halter, and then gave him to a friend to ride while I was off with my foot stuff. I got him back about two months ago and started trying to do the PK work with him in his KK jointed snaffle. He has become totally sound and very safe and quiet and happy. So off we went.

Bertrand refined my efforts and technique and many things became clear. This work requires very independent body parts...and a lot of timing and feel. I can see why it can be challenging for people... have to have an independent seat and very independent hands, arms, legs. If you can't feel the instant your horse yields in the correct way you are just going to be hopelessly pulling and flailing. But if you can, its immediately clear when the horse really takes the soft contact and changes his balance. There is no holding or pulling.

So the two misapprehensions I always hear about this work is that it is Hand Riding, which it certainly is not. The other is that it is incompatible with competition riding. It certainly is not. So far I have seen two of the Trainer trainees do their examinations for the first level of certification, which includes riding, lunging, in hand work, and also presenting a student who has been with them for the three year duration of the clinic. Both trainees produced a test that would have scored really well at second level, (which is the First level of the Trainer program...you continue to work in the program to upper level work).

Some of the horses in the program here are quite plain. There is a western trainer who brings a difficult and poorly built Appy mare. There is a girl on a very drafty Halflinger. Every horse that I have seen in this program has changed dramatically. They truly do become light, balanced, and beautiful. I get the biggest kick out of the Haffie...her first canters in the clinic were like the cartoon in which the legs just become spinning circles, you know? >;-> and now she is out there like some little German Riding pony, balanced and happy. Its really nice.

Oh, so I was accepted.

I cant WAIT till March.

I strongly encourage anyone who is interested in another way to balance and lightness to pursue this work. Living where I live, I see really good riders who use the different system and training scale. I could never fault them. But I see way too many riders really clutching at the concept of contact and lightness while the kick/drive the hind in to a fixed/holding hand. Horses really pay the price for that physically and mentally.

The lunging work in PK is nice...its really just in hand work at a distance...there is none of the just going around in circles in side reins that is the end game for many riders/trainers. Its transitions, changes of direction, reinback, everything. Its quite lovely and actually beneficial, which a lot of lunge work is not.

I am so lucky to have someone of Bertrands stature be accessible to me and to have horses I can do it on! George was a star. The last day was a short day and after my lesson I rode off of Kits property in to the hills. What a nice end to that great four days.

George has a really funny bellow that he does when he thinks if grain time. I have never heard a tyrannosaurus rex but I I did I would iimagine it sounds like George. Its hilarious. The clinic horses were living in paddocks between the arena and the house and every time I walked by George would do his big bellow. Kit has a mini donk. Every time George did his thing the mini donk got all happy and started his heehaw thing...he must have thought "Oh! One of my people!" It was too silly :D

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Re: In Which I Seek ze Legerete (long)

Postby khall » Fri Oct 27, 2017 6:01 pm

Abby I am glad you are able to pursue your dream. Congratulations and good luck!

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Re: In Which I Seek ze Legerete (long)

Postby StraightForward » Fri Oct 27, 2017 8:51 pm

Thanks for the description. Bertrand was just here and I didn't find out until after the fact. It sounds like he will be returning on a regular basis now that Linda Hollingsworth-Jones has received her certification, so I will be sure to go audit next time.

The straightness before forward is something that is ringing true with me for my current horse, though I am kind of interspersing the two approaches. Going round and around nagging her not to put all her weight on her strong shoulder wasn't seeming very conducive to good development, now that she's pretty reliably W/T/C and steering under saddle. With my extremely basic knowledge, I'm looking at it as tutoring her on how to carry more comfortably so that she CAN respond to the aids once she's back in the more forward gaits.
Keep calm and canter on.

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Re: In Which I Seek ze Legerete (long)

Postby Abby Kogler » Fri Oct 27, 2017 9:58 pm

Straightforward, Linda did her exam at Kit Wests barn here. It was nice to watch.

One of the many nice things about this work is the way that it transforms even very plain or what dressage peeps might consider off breeds or horses that aren't good movers.

One caveat would be that you can't go to one day and come out with understanding. Its not like a clinic where you go and come home with a new tool or two. This is a different methodology, period. If I had not studied it, and just went to a one day clinic, I would not have pursued it. Only because through the years I had seen so many blown horses and the whole concept of 'contact' was so totally misunderstood by so many even BNTs and trainers and high level competitors and the idea of the constant need to rebalance the horse throughout the ride with poorly understood and executed half halts did this work appeal to me.

The Legerete Ecole discourages one or two day attendance and I see why. It would be so easy to misconstrue or misunderstand it.

Thanks Khall! Yes, I waited a long time to find someone to do this work with. Flying to France was not a possibility >;-> Our local phony Classical fraud was not an option. Jeremy Steinberg is great and that is who I will school with in between. But Bertrand is so great..

I have videos of my rides that are long and boring but if anyone wants to see them I am putting them on you tube. They are kind of good in that he is starting with me from the beginning and you can follow the flexions in his methodical way. I just walk since I really cant trot well yet and it seemed a futile exercise >;-> but my foot gets better all the time. Its funny how in the video I can see that my left ankle does not go down. It definitely is different now after the four surgeries. It feels like it is down so I will be aware of it now!

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Re: In Which I Seek ze Legerete (long)

Postby kande50 » Fri Oct 27, 2017 10:31 pm

You're very lucky. I've been following all the clinics and trainees hoping that someone would start teaching in this area, but nothing yet.

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Re: In Which I Seek ze Legerete (long)

Postby piedmontfields » Fri Oct 27, 2017 11:59 pm

I would love to see your video work, Abby!

This approach has resonated with me for some time and I've been lucky to be shaped by regional trainers who emphasize balance and straightness before movement/forward/power. I'm glad you can now dive in deep!

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Re: In Which I Seek ze Legerete (long)

Postby Abby Kogler » Sat Oct 28, 2017 12:31 am

kande50 wrote:You're very lucky. I've been following all the clinics and trainees hoping that someone would start teaching in this area, but nothing yet.


Well since you are one of the first people I ever talked to about it, I owe you >;->

Yes, I am very lucky. My horse life has been filled with remarkable opportunities. This is one of the best!

When its cold and frozen in March you can come to Cali and audit our clinic here. There is also one in PA. I don't have a guest room but there is a neat little air bnb right behind my house >;->

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Re: In Which I Seek ze Legerete (long)

Postby Abby Kogler » Sat Oct 28, 2017 12:47 am

Here are the videos. They are really long...its Bertrand working with me on the flexions on the ground and then me at the walk.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2yEJPWVncQ (day 1)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NI-jz-ra_TE (day 2)

I don't have days 3 and 4 yet...3 is about the same as these two and 4 is in hand.

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Re: In Which I Seek ze Legerete (long)

Postby kande50 » Sat Oct 28, 2017 10:56 am

Abby Kogler wrote:Well since you are one of the first people I ever talked to about it, I owe you >;->


And we both owe Patrick and Ruth for sharing their experiences, and Racinet for getting out there and swimming against the tide--or more like the rip current--to show us that there are alternatives.

When its cold and frozen in March you can come to Cali and audit our clinic here. There is also one in PA. I don't have a guest room but there is a neat little air bnb right behind my house >;->


Thanks for posting the videos, as that's probably about as close as I'm going to get. :-)

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Re: In Which I Seek ze Legerete (long)

Postby demi » Sat Oct 28, 2017 12:07 pm

I find this all very interesting. George is beautiful and it will be interesting to follow his progress, especially so, considering his history. Thanks for posting and please continue.

So, I watched the vids, but couldn't hear much. Still, I was able to get a feeling for what was going on, having watched the PK vids several years ago. A couple of things got my interest. Your trainer removed George's noseband. At one point he said something like "that is the natural movement of the neck, you don't want to go against the natural movement of the neck".

Thanks again for sharing this.

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Re: In Which I Seek ze Legerete (long)

Postby Abby Kogler » Sat Oct 28, 2017 3:46 pm

demi wrote:I find this all very interesting. George is beautiful and it will be interesting to follow his progress, especially so, considering his history. Thanks for posting and please continue.

So, I watched the vids, but couldn't hear much. Still, I was able to get a feeling for what was going on, having watched the PK vids several years ago. A couple of things got my interest. Your trainer removed George's noseband. At one point he said something like "that is the natural movement of the neck, you don't want to go against the natural movement of the neck".

Thanks again for sharing this.


Yes re the noseband. It was very loose and not constricting, but it was in the way of my hands while trying to refine my demi arrest so we just took it off.

Re the following hand...it was I think on the second day when I was walking...that riders need to have a following hand always...that holding or fixing the hand just leads to a horse pulling/leaning.

Thanks Demi, I will. And yes George is beautiful and has done a 180 from when he came to me. I have some vid of the first time I ever lasered/body worked him...he was so tense and constantly grinding his teeth and clacking; his neck was short and even just standing there or free lunging he was behind the verticle; he really just physically could not get in front of the vertical, ridden or not. now you can see what a sweet and soft and affectionate horse he is. I love him to bits. Hes quite a fancy pants mover and I cant wait to get back to work. After my June surgery when I was barely out of my boot I broke the big toe on my *other* foot, so I was bilaterally lame...in the clinic both my feet were so sore. But they get better all the time, woot!

Thanks all.

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Re: In Which I Seek ze Legerete (long)

Postby kande50 » Sun Oct 29, 2017 11:32 am

Abby Kogler wrote:Re the following hand...it was I think on the second day when I was walking...that riders need to have a following hand always...that holding or fixing the hand just leads to a horse pulling/leaning.


Agree that holding just desensitizes the horse to the pressure, but fixing, as long as it's brief, does just the opposite, or at least it does when the rider knows how and when to do it. The advantage to knowing how to fix the hand is that when the horse responds the release/give is immediate, because the hand is fixed.

I think the reason people object to the idea of fixing the hand is because they envision it as much more sustained than it needs to be, which would be holding. That, and they're so concerned about the contact, OMG the contact, which must be maintained at all costs (often at the expense of the horse), that they don't always get that fixing the hand is within the contact. The soft, light, gentle, following contact.

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Re: In Which I Seek ze Legerete (long)

Postby Ryeissa » Sun Oct 29, 2017 4:22 pm

yes, balance before movement has been essential in my riding....that is what I spoke of on the other thread. However, I still use a lot of the german theory. Flexions have been very helpful, as well as in hand work

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Re: In Which I Seek ze Legerete (long)

Postby Chisamba » Sun Oct 29, 2017 6:32 pm

I had a hard time following all the blah blah but enjoy and good luck

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Re: In Which I Seek ze Legerete (long)

Postby Abby Kogler » Sun Oct 29, 2017 8:50 pm

Chisamba wrote:I had a hard time following all the blah blah but enjoy and good luck


Ha!

Thanks :lol:

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Re: In Which I Seek ze Legerete (long)

Postby Tuddy » Wed Nov 01, 2017 7:51 pm

Good Job! I love French classical and a good friend of mine is a trainer in training and rides with Bertrand as well.

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Re: In Which I Seek ze Legerete (long)

Postby Amado » Fri Nov 03, 2017 11:18 am

How exciting for you! When we lived in Oregon, I rode with a woman who has done that course - Carol McArdle. She was a huge help, transformational for me and Rico - and I use the things I learned in conjunction with many other things I’ve been taught. I’ve got the PK videos. They are good. Solved many issues I was having thinking about them from a balance standpoint first. Wish I didn’t live in such a dressage wasteland now!

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Re: In Which I Seek ze Legerete (long)

Postby Abby Kogler » Sat Nov 04, 2017 3:35 pm

Thanks Tuddy and Amado. I am so lucky!!

I have not ridden since the clinic. I swear, my life sometimes. I am the Dressage Phase Volunteer Coordinator for the fall Galway Intenational Horse Trials which takes a ton of time, but was over yesterday Woot! Had construction projects at the house and the barn, Jurgen had a surgery, I am teaching agin...blah blah blah >;-> no riding for me. But all that is done now so back to work. Im so interested to see how my project/rejects respond to this work. I have been doing it all along, but after the four days of personal help from Bertrand my timing and understanding is much better and I feel like I am able to do the flexions and the in hand work even better than I was. I am waiting for my Soloshot! I want to chronicle the boys as we go along.

Thanks!

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Re: In Which I Seek ze Legerete (long)

Postby Tuddy » Tue Nov 07, 2017 2:49 pm

Abby Kogler wrote: I am waiting for my Soloshot! I want to chronicle the boys as we go along.

Thanks!


I am excited to watch your journey as well! Good Luck!

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Re: In Which I Seek ze Legerete (long)

Postby Flight » Mon Nov 13, 2017 12:48 am

Have been meaning to say thanks for sharing vids!

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Re: In Which I Seek ze Legerete (long)

Postby Code3 » Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:16 pm

This is incredibly exciting. Congratulations!

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Re: In Which I Seek ze Legerete (long)

Postby Abby Kogler » Tue Nov 14, 2017 7:22 pm

Flight, Tuddy, Code, Thanks! It is very exciting. The days I don't get to ride make me crazy, this is all Im thinking about >;-> I am hosting a small hands on Mary Debono clinic, lived through Galway, the days are SO DAMN SHORT, and I am catching up on the body clipping, landscaping, etc etc etc. In other words, I am not riding a lot.

But I got the notification of my soloshot being shipped I am SO excited about that as now I can really chronicle my work and the horses. I don't have mirrors; it will be great to watch myself. The soloshot has been over a year of waiting. It better be as great as they say >;->

Thanks again all, I will share as we go along. I feel quite lucky.

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Re: In Which I Seek ze Legerete (long)

Postby Code3 » Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:29 pm

Thank you for sharing your journey!


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