Walk work and a question

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Tsavo
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Walk work and a question

Postby Tsavo » Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:55 pm

So I am allowed to ride at walk for 2 weeks before we reassess the situation. He got a coffin joint injection on 1 Nov, I rested him for 2 weeks and now I am riding him at walk.

There is plenty to do... transitions between counted and medium, medium to extended, shaukel, all the lateral work, hills, laterals on hills, etc.

In the meantime, my horse is trotting and cantering and doing reining spins and gallops in the pasture. Yesterday, I put some carrots on the ground thru the fence and he eats one of several pieces, spins around, and gallops to the gate (away from me) for me to take him out. He did this twice. I have been riding him daily since Thursday and he seems to want to get out on the property out of his pasture.

Anyway, if the protocol is to rest for two weeks, and then ride at walk for two weeks, should he be turned out? I want him out but I think the two instructions are inconsistent.

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Re: Walk work and a question

Postby piedmontfields » Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:56 pm

You should be communicating with your vet about this.

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Re: Walk work and a question

Postby Tsavo » Mon Nov 20, 2017 3:03 pm

I suppose so. But I am secretly afraid he will say keep him in the stall. Or not. He never at any point in this saga mentioned stalling him.

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Re: Walk work and a question

Postby Tsavo » Mon Nov 20, 2017 3:14 pm

I wrote to him. Let's see what he says.

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Re: Walk work and a question

Postby Dresseur » Mon Nov 20, 2017 3:19 pm

Did you do stall rest after the injection? Because that would be normal protocol to keep the injection site clean and quiet. Personally, assuming that the was kept in for 2 weeks following the injection, I would have gotten him back into his walk work and then turned him out in a small space once he was in some sort of work routine. If there's a roundpen, small paddock, or something to keep him from tearing around, that would be best. But at this point, putting him back in the stall doesn't make sense - but if you have a smaller space, I'd use that to limit him, and I'd absolutely tell the vet what's going on.

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Re: Walk work and a question

Postby Tsavo » Mon Nov 20, 2017 5:02 pm

I do not recall him telling me to put him on stall rest after the injection but I told him what I did and what is happening so we will see what he says. My recollection is to not work him for two weeks and then ride at walk for two weeks. Maybe I missed that. I can't find the bill from that visit so I can't check the instructions he wrote but I am 99% sure the vet saw me put him in his pasture and then come back to give him the check.

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Re: Walk work and a question

Postby Tsavo » Mon Nov 20, 2017 5:04 pm

There is no issue with the injection. He is sound on some days and wants to work.

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Re: Walk work and a question

Postby Moutaineer » Mon Nov 20, 2017 5:19 pm

The only time I've ever had a coffin joint injection done, I was told to keep him in that day but then turn him out. By then the pinhole has closed up. But that horse was pretty laid back in his paddock. I don't remember being off him for more than 5 days or so, but my vet is pretty aggressive about getting things back to work after joint injections as he feels that in most cases of arthritic changes, motion is lotion.

Sounds like your horse is feeling sufficiently better to get to running, which is always a bit of a two edged sword.

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Re: Walk work and a question

Postby Tsavo » Mon Nov 20, 2017 5:44 pm

Thanks for all the input.

I am coming to realize that either there isn't one right answer or nobody knows what it is. I doubt various resting schemes after a coffin joint injection have been studied at all.

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Re: Walk work and a question

Postby Tsavo » Mon Nov 20, 2017 6:11 pm

Okay he wrote back and didn't address the exuberance issue but rather focused on my question about what the reassessment after two weeks would be and that it is too soon to tell now if the treatment worked.

In thinking back, I think I did put him in his stall/paddock after the shot and not in the pasture. But I left no instructions so he must have been cleared to go out the next day.

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Re: Walk work and a question

Postby Dresseur » Tue Nov 21, 2017 3:11 am

Sorry, I should have been clear, usually they ask for stall rest right after the injection so that the site heals. When you said he rested for a 2 week rest period, I was assuming you meant in stall, and I should not have assumed that. Either way, I would have done a limited turnout, not back into big pasture. But, that's water under the bridge :D Hopefully you continue to find improvement after the injection!
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Re: Walk work and a question

Postby Tsavo » Tue Nov 21, 2017 1:01 pm

Thanks, Dresseur.

In reading up on coffin joint OA, I putting a 90% chance that my horse will be intermittently lame going forward. In two weeks, even if he is sound, it isn't going to stay that way.

Of all his feet, and all his pathology, the smart money would have been on the right hind which has been toasted by the right front club, or the right front club, as being the reason I would retire him. Who knew. He has one decent foot, the left hind.

For my next horse, I am willing to pay more for barefoot and will not buy a clubfooted horse again.

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Re: Walk work and a question

Postby Chisamba » Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:12 pm

I hope he is well. I don't see the sense in walk work only worth free turnout. They are usually mutually exclusive.

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Re: Walk work and a question

Postby Tsavo » Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:18 pm

Chisamba wrote:I hope he is well. I don't see the sense in walk work only worth free turnout. They are usually mutually exclusive.


That's what I thought! It seems inconsistent. I am sticking to walk and then he is breaking from imaginary gates and doing airs above the ground in the pasture. I wanted my vet to address that but I guess I wasn't clear enough. Maybe I will try again with a follow up email.

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Re: Walk work and a question

Postby kande50 » Tue Nov 21, 2017 11:35 pm

Tsavo wrote:
For my next horse, I am willing to pay more for barefoot and will not buy a clubfooted horse again.


I'll never buy another club footed horse again either, because I can't stand riding a crooked horse and there's no getting him straight enough so that I can ignore the asymmetry so that we can move on. Maybe if he was my only horse I'd get used to it, but I ride much straighter horses too, which makes it hard to ignore how crooked he is.

I was already sold on barefoot when I got Sting, so knew that I wasn't going to be shoeing him. If I had bought a horse who was already shod I would have just pulled the shoes so he could get started on developing good bare hooves.

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Re: Walk work and a question

Postby Tsavo » Wed Nov 22, 2017 3:37 pm

My horse can be ridden to at least third level straight by any competent rider. He was training third level when I bought him and was a provincial reserve champion at first level.

My GP trainer enforced SF every microsecond. Although I got the footfalls, I didn't have the body and it took me a while to figure that out and realize the difference. I now ride him straight-straight which I credit for him making it this far with whack feet. We have been on borrowed time.

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Re: Walk work and a question

Postby musical comedy » Wed Nov 22, 2017 4:45 pm

Tsavo wrote:For my next horse, I am willing to pay more for barefoot and will not buy a clubfooted horse again.
Generally you will find that the really nice horses with good training are wearing shoes. Just my observation from checking out sales horses for the last year window shopping.

I wouldn't want a club footed horse either; who would. That said, when we go horse shopping (or even house shopping for that matter) we tend to look for ones that don't have the problems we had with our previous horses. Often we end up exchanging one fault for another.

As you said, your horse could still work well at 3rd with good management. Kande's horse may not be at 3rd, but he is apparently still riding sound with good care. On the other hand, there are horses without major conformation faults, that are on the bench with lameness, etc. It's one big crap shoot this buying of horses.

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Re: Walk work and a question

Postby Tsavo » Wed Nov 22, 2017 5:37 pm

musical comedy wrote:
Tsavo wrote:For my next horse, I am willing to pay more for barefoot and will not buy a clubfooted horse again.

Generally you will find that the really nice horses with good training are wearing shoes. Just my observation from checking out sales horses for the last year window shopping.


Yes I have noticed that also in my review of the sale horses over the last year or so. If a horse has shoes then I hold out for no clips. Then that horse we discussed several months ago has shoes with clips. LOL

That said, there are at least a few horses that are working without shoes at the upper levels that I have seen advertised. But this "want" of barefoot has about a 100% chance of falling off my list when I actually buy my next horse. I would make it a non-negotiable but then I won't find a horse.

My list of wants in order of increasing negotiability is as follows:

Age about 8
Mare
Draft cross
upper level (confirmed at least third)
barefoot/good feet/conformation
puppy dog personality

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Re: Walk work and a question

Postby Moutaineer » Wed Nov 22, 2017 7:48 pm

Yes but... the clips thing.

When I moved to the USA from England, one of the oddest horse-keeping things to me was that horse were shod without clips. I don't think I ever saw a horse in England shod without clips. I suspect the weather in England (and probably a lot of places here) affects the hoof's ability to hold a shoe without clips.

My farrier here in Utah has just been to a shoeing competition in England (where I am delighted to say his team came in second behind the Scots--I'm so lucky with this guy, he rocks, and he's reliable!) and he was remarking on this when we were talking about his experiences over there the other day.

So, I wouldn't worry about the clips. It may just be the way the farrier was trained (and probably means the horse has been shod by someone who at least had some degree of competence at making a shoe and/or raising a clip from a flat shoe.)

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Re: Walk work and a question

Postby Tsavo » Wed Nov 22, 2017 10:31 pm

Thank you Moutaineer for that perspective.

I am just going by what my farrier once said and did with my horse... about 8 years ago, my horse was twisting his hinds, probably in relation to not getting the gluteal pain under control. My farrier put clips on and I asked when he could come out of them and the response as I recollect and understood was once you go into them it is hard to get out. That sounds crazy and I probably misunderstood. My horse did come out of them and has had them on the front once but always comes out of them. The plastic shoes have them but they are aren't doing anything as the shoes are a little wide. I thought my farrier would clip them off but he didn't.

I spoke to one seller who, when I asked why the horse had clips and if he torques his shoes, answered that all the horses at that barn had clips. I said okay then!!

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Re: Walk work and a question

Postby kande50 » Fri Nov 24, 2017 12:41 am

musical comedy wrote:That said, when we go horse shopping (or even house shopping for that matter) we tend to look for ones that don't have the problems we had with our previous horses. Often we end up exchanging one fault for another.


Exactly. And it's not just conformation issues we try to avoid, but our previous training issues, as well.

I learned a lot about what I didn't want from my last horse, who was obedient and submissive, but shut down. So I didn't repeat that mistake with the next horse, but just made different ones.

Not that it's possible to avoid making mistakes, because we can always come up with something we're not entirely satisfied with. But it would be nice if we could take what we've learned and apply it to a few more horses before we get too old and tired.
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Re: Walk work and a question

Postby kande50 » Fri Nov 24, 2017 12:52 am

Tsavo wrote:
I spoke to one seller who, when I asked why the horse had clips and if he torques his shoes, answered that all the horses at that barn had clips. I said okay then!!


The only reason I ever put clips on a horse was to try to help stabilize the shoe to take the strain off the nails. The reason I wanted to take the strain off the nails was because the hoof was getting weaker from being shod all the time, so needed all the help it could get. I didn't see the clips as a necessity, but as something that might help prevent some of the damage so that I wouldn't have to lose the shoes.

That was back when I was still buying into the idea that my horses needed shoes for the kind of work they were doing.

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Re: Walk work and a question

Postby Tsavo » Fri Nov 24, 2017 1:08 am

I don't like clips because if the horse does manage to shift the shoe that clip is going up into the foot. I would never allow clips unless it was the only way to keep a shoe from being torqued off.

My horse has pretty good feet but when he grows slowly in winter, rather than put clips on, my farrier uses bondo (epoxy). MUCH better solution than clips.

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Re: Walk work and a question

Postby khall » Fri Nov 24, 2017 1:53 am

tsavo I would add to your not desired list if you are set on a draft cross no PSSM. A friend and boarder bought a TB/Perch mare and low and behold she is PSSM1. There are many reasons I would not choose a draft cross for a dressage prospect and this is a biggy. Friend had no idea drafts were genetically predisposed to this issue.

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Re: Walk work and a question

Postby Tsavo » Fri Nov 24, 2017 2:02 am

khall wrote:tsavo I would add to your not desired list if you are set on a draft cross no PSSM. A friend and boarder bought a TB/Perch mare and low and behold she is PSSM1. There are many reasons I would not choose a draft cross for a dressage prospect and this is a biggy. Friend had no idea drafts were genetically predisposed to this issue.


That's a good point. I don't tend to think of it because my draft cross doesn't have it. But I do know it is a possibility with any draft blood.

I can't add that to the PPE because last I knew it requires taking a piece of muscle which is disfiguring.

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Re: Walk work and a question

Postby khall » Fri Nov 24, 2017 3:56 am

PSSM1 is a genetic test that just requires mane or blood. That is how my friend's mare was diagnosed after vet suspected the problem when she tied up. I would think any seller would like to have that information for the horse they were selling if they are a reputable seller considering the prevalence of the issue in drafts. PSSM2 requires a muscle biopsy, usually a punch biopsy which is not what I would consider to be disfiguring. Drafts can and do have either or sometimes both.

QH now have the 5 panel which is testing for the various genetic issues found in the breed.

Info on PSSM
https://cvm.msu.edu/research/faculty-re ... e-myopathy
https://cvm.msu.edu/research/faculty-re ... e-myopathy

BTW my friends mare is one of the nicest moving draft crosses I have seen with an especially good canter. Too bad she is not really suitable for my friend, just too big and a bit too much horse for an older AA rerider. Lovely kind mare but with a bit too much TB blood in there sometimes. She does not exhibit typical PSSM movement, never has. Very free moving. Has some issue with fitting up because of PSSM. Does well on the high fat low starch diet thank goodness. She is going to sell her though because of their lack of compatibility. Her feet with the combo of TB and draft are interesting. The platter feet of the draft combined with low heel issues from TB. A good farrier and heart bar shoe has made a huge difference in her feet.

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Re: Walk work and a question

Postby kande50 » Fri Nov 24, 2017 10:26 am

Tsavo wrote:I don't like clips because if the horse does manage to shift the shoe that clip is going up into the foot. I would never allow clips unless it was the only way to keep a shoe from being torqued off.

My horse has pretty good feet but when he grows slowly in winter, rather than put clips on, my farrier uses bondo (epoxy). MUCH better solution than clips.


I was worried about my horse stepping on a clip too, which is why I ended up switching to glue ons part of the time to allow the nail holes to grow out without having to pull the shoes.

Trouble with glue ons is that so many of them cover the hoof up even more than shoes, so accelerate the weakening process. That may be because closing up the hoof more makes any thrush/rot problems worse, or it may be because it just simply allows the bottom of the hoof and walls to become thinner? I did eventually get my horse out of shoes so that her hooves could heal themselves, and they did, and by then boots had become so much more reliable that I never did shoe her again.

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Re: Walk work and a question

Postby Tsavo » Fri Nov 24, 2017 1:02 pm

Just to be clear, my horse has never had glue-on shoes while I have owned him. The epoxy was to add to the hoof wall.

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Re: Walk work and a question

Postby Tsavo » Fri Nov 24, 2017 1:09 pm

khall wrote:PSSM1 is a genetic test that just requires mane or blood. That is how my friend's mare was diagnosed after vet suspected the problem when she tied up. I would think any seller would like to have that information for the horse they were selling if they are a reputable seller considering the prevalence of the issue in drafts. PSSM2 requires a muscle biopsy, usually a punch biopsy which is not what I would consider to be disfiguring. Drafts can and do have either or sometimes both.


Did they also do the punch biopsy? When I was reading about this, I think they were taking a piece of muscle 5 cm long but that sounds crazy.



Thanks for this.

BTW my friends mare is one of the nicest moving draft crosses I have seen with an especially good canter.


Canter has been my horse's best gait as it was for several other draft crosses at the barn where I bought him. They are a mixed bag but the good ones are very good.

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Re: Walk work and a question

Postby Tsavo » Fri Nov 24, 2017 1:58 pm

I found the bill. The turnout instructions are not on it. So I have to go by my memory of two weeks no riding and then ride at walk for two weeks. Based on his lack of addressing the antics and in turnout in my recent email, I am assuming that is not concerning. I am still going to stick with walk for another week so I can say I followed the directions.

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Re: Walk work and a question

Postby Tsavo » Fri Nov 24, 2017 3:35 pm

From that first link that khall posted...

Clydesdale 0/48 0%

That may explain why my horse does not have PSSM1. He is 1/4 Clyde, 3/4 TB.

Also from that link...

Percheron 93/149 62%

I will be avoiding Perch crosses based on this. It is autosomal dominant.

It seems PSSM2 is in light breeds including many WBs, inter alia.

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Re: Walk work and a question

Postby musical comedy » Fri Nov 24, 2017 4:18 pm

Tsavo wrote:From that first link that khall posted...

Clydesdale 0/48 0%
That may explain why my horse does not have PSSM1. He is 1/4 Clyde, 3/4 TB.

Also from that link...
Percheron 93/149 62%

I will be avoiding Perch crosses based on this. It is autosomal dominant.
I
A sample of 48 isn't much to go on. From what I've seen for sale and in competition over the years, most Draft/Crosses have a Percheron (rather than Clyde) on one side. Usually it is the mare that is the draft. I only rarely see a Clyde/TB cross for sale.

I'm curious as to why you want a half draft, not that it is any of my business. I think will be very difficult to find a half-draft, 8 years old, doing 3rd level that is for sale. If there are half-drafts that young doing 3rd, they are likely quite nice and have ability to go farther, thus probably not for sale.
Actually, any horse doing 'confirmed' 3rd at age 8 is hard to find and comes with a hefty price tag.

I thought at one time you wanted to buy a German Riding Pony.

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Re: Walk work and a question

Postby Tsavo » Fri Nov 24, 2017 6:42 pm

musical comedy wrote:I'm curious as to why you want a half draft, not that it is any of my business. I think will be very difficult to find a half-draft, 8 years old, doing 3rd level that is for sale. If there are half-drafts that young doing 3rd, they are likely quite nice and have ability to go farther, thus probably not for sale.


No I would much prefer 1/4 draft, not half draft. I still refer to that as a draft cross. I agree third level 1/4 drafts are not a dime a dozen. Further, I don't want a horse that has been on a sale ad. My plan is to network thru all the trainers I have worked with over the years and to contact people breeding these horses to know that a top shelf forever home is available for a horse who fits my criteria. Someone is going to know an owner who can't keep their horse but wants a good home. That is how I got my horse. It will take a while and may not pan out but that is going to be my first pass at this.

Actually, any horse doing 'confirmed' 3rd at age 8 is hard to find and comes with a hefty price tag.


Moreso for a WB. Less so for an off breed I hope.

I thought at one time you wanted to buy a German Riding Pony.


Too expensive.
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Re: Walk work and a question

Postby khall » Fri Nov 24, 2017 8:12 pm

tsavo, the mare was diagnosed by genetic testing using mane hair. She is half TB half percheron. Not what I would have chosen for my friend at all even though she is a nice mare, one of the nicest moving draft crosses I've seen.

I know the 1/4 draft were at one point being bred for the hunt field, not sure if they still are or not. Have you looked at any of the Irish draft crosses? I agree with MC that finding a horse confirmed 3rd level will be pricey. Even the off breeds I would think. Good luck though, never fun horse shopping.

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Re: Walk work and a question

Postby Tsavo » Fri Nov 24, 2017 11:49 pm

khall wrote:tsavo, the mare was diagnosed by genetic testing using mane hair. She is half TB half percheron. Not what I would have chosen for my friend at all even though she is a nice mare, one of the nicest moving draft crosses I've seen.


I asked that before I red that PSSM2 was not present in draft crosses. Before that, I assumed both forms were in draft crosses and was wondering why your friend only tested for the one form. But I see now why she only had to test for PSSM1.

I know the 1/4 draft were at one point being bred for the hunt field, not sure if they still are or not. Have you looked at any of the Irish draft crosses? I agree with MC that finding a horse confirmed 3rd level will be pricey. Even the off breeds I would think. Good luck though, never fun horse shopping.


Thanks khall. Yes the Irish draught crosses catch my eye routinely. I would consider that. I want a chunky monkey but still athletic.

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Re: Walk work and a question

Postby Tuddy » Mon Dec 04, 2017 7:19 pm

Tsavo wrote:My list of wants in order of increasing negotiability is as follows:

Age about 8
Mare
Draft cross
upper level (confirmed at least third)
barefoot/good feet/conformation
puppy dog personality


You need a Canadian. Chunky, good bone and feet, extremely athletic. I do know of some breeders that show dressage. I know of one that did very well at Devon. :D

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Re: Walk work and a question

Postby Tsavo » Mon Dec 04, 2017 7:29 pm

I think you are right! The Canadian horses are dreamy. ☺

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Re: Walk work and a question

Postby Sue B » Mon Dec 04, 2017 11:17 pm

My Belgian warmblood (not a draft cross) is what i call my "old lady horse." His gaits are average, easy to sit, and has a totally "in your pocket" personality. As I haven't gotten around to actually getting him up the levels (too much life in the way) I can't say for certain if he will go much past 3rd level--it all depends on how his canter develops. He does where shoes in the middle of the summer, but that's because our ground is very hard and dry and wears their feet down with regular riding. All this, I guess to say, I have developed a fondness for BWB's based on an n of 1. :lol: He certainly does not ride or train like any of my TB's or even QH's I have had, and overall responds like the majority of WB's I've ridden. I purposely went for less than spectacular gaits because I want to ride well into my 70's and hopefully compete in the Century ride. The only Canadian I know is semi-retired due to ringbone, so I guess I would be careful to check out your prospect's parentage before purchasing. She's an otherwise lovely, kind mare who took excellent care of her young Pony clubber over the years.

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Re: Walk work and a question

Postby Tsavo » Tue Dec 05, 2017 12:34 am

I like the BWB I have seen also. There are not so many of those around.

I asked about any propensity for ringbone in particular breeds or crosses and my vet said that is was mainly a function of conformation, not breed. So I will pick something with very good conformation/feet.

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Re: Walk work and a question

Postby Tuddy » Tue Dec 05, 2017 3:21 pm

http://www.nj.com/sports/njsports/index ... age_a.html

Here is the Canadian Horse that was at Devon a couple years ago. I am friends with the breeder on Facebook, but I know she is focusing more on her Dutch warmblood breeding program.

Anyways, I will always have a soft spot for the "little iron horse". :)


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