Position as it relates to effectiveness

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Position as it relates to effectiveness

Postby Tsavo » Fri Dec 29, 2017 3:01 pm

This is an offshoot of another thread.

Here are some relevant questions...

1. What are the limits of position before it affects effectiveness?

2. How come elite rides have obvious positional differences?

3. How come elite riders have positions that differ from what is considered "correct" yet they are still obviously effective?

4. Why was an obviously poor position of an ex-Olympian included in a DT edition several years ago? (rhetorical)

5. What positions are common (non-negotiable) for effective riders?

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Re: Position as it relates to effectiveness

Postby Rosie B » Fri Dec 29, 2017 4:24 pm

Awesome thread Tsavo.

I've spent a lot of time thinking about position, watching people ride, analyzing (in great detail) my own riding and other people's riding, both good and bad. What follows is my own personal opinion.

In my mind there are two components to "position" that are highly correlated. One is your ability to facilitate the response you want in the horse (effectiveness), and the second is sitting in a way that readily enables the horse to do what you've asked (position). You can't get very far without being effective. You can get very far indeed without a "perfect position".

I think effectiveness (strictly from a physiological point of view) comes down to integrity of your core/trunk. What I mean by integrity is the interconnection of all the components that make up your trunk - your abdominal muscles, your back, your shoulders, your pelvis, your spine, and your shoulder blades, etc. Those things can NOT deviate in their respective positions from each other. Your middle can't do the hula. Your shoulder blades can't be moving around - they need to be back and down. The whole unit needs to have structural integrity. Then you need to know what to do with it, but that's where you get into timing, feel, experience, etc.

The second component (the ideal position) is exactly that - an ideal. Not everyone can achieve it due to their physical conformation. It's ideal because it puts you in the best possible position to allow the horse to do what we're asking.

If you have that structural integrity, you can ride effectively no matter what position you're in. Different positions can compromise the horse's ability to deliver on what you're asking for, but as long as you have that integrity, you can be very effective and can go far.

If you have a beautiful position and no structural integrity, you're not going anywhere.

So for me, in my journey with the horses that I've had, I focus on effectiveness first and position second. Once you get to a new level of effectiveness, then you can refine your position. If you are continuously refining your position without addressing your effectiveness (WHILE trying to train the horse up the levels), you won't get as far.

Again - just my 2 cents.

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Re: Position as it relates to effectiveness

Postby piedmontfields » Fri Dec 29, 2017 5:11 pm

Rosie B wrote: I think effectiveness (strictly from a physiological point of view) comes down to integrity of your core/trunk...
If you have a beautiful position and no structural integrity, you're not going anywhere.


This way of putting it really resonates with me. I see a lot of high level event riders who are not always beautiful in their dressage position (often it is due to past injuries) but their core power, structural integrity and body control is exceptional.

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Re: Position as it relates to effectiveness

Postby khall » Fri Dec 29, 2017 5:18 pm

While I do agree the effectiveness is affected :) by our core, my opinion is effectiveness is more related to rider feel. If you cannot feel what is happening under your seat and be able to diagnose and address the issues, then regardless of the integrity of your core you will not be effective.

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Re: Position as it relates to effectiveness

Postby StraightForward » Fri Dec 29, 2017 5:32 pm

piedmontfields wrote:
Rosie B wrote: I think effectiveness (strictly from a physiological point of view) comes down to integrity of your core/trunk...
If you have a beautiful position and no structural integrity, you're not going anywhere.


This way of putting it really resonates with me. I see a lot of high level event riders who are not always beautiful in their dressage position (often it is due to past injuries) but their core power, structural integrity and body control is exceptional.


I think that is the difference between amateurs who really need a solid position because the core might not be there as strongly, vs. pros who are in the saddle hours every day and have a really solid core position. The pro might not look 100% elegant, but is still in a better dynamic balance due to the core strength. Polishing the position from there can only improve things further, but the core strength, and balance and proprioception that come with hours and hours in the saddle, ensure that the pro can deftly make compensations to stay in dynamic balance. An amateur that might ride a couple hours a week can't hope to replicate the same position and achieve the same results, because the core strength isn't there, and there's more likelyhood of imbalance and inability to stay with the horse.
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Re: Position as it relates to effectiveness

Postby angela9823 » Fri Dec 29, 2017 5:46 pm

I had two ladies come over that would be riding a few of my horses in a show. They were in the 4-H horse club and I was allowing them use of some horses I had. The one sat with perfect posture. She won a lot of hunter shows and rider awards because she just looked nice on a horse. But put her on a horse that wasn't easy or get her to attempt a dressage test and it was ugly. The other girl was a bit on the heavier side, didn't sit "pretty" but the horses loved her. She rode with lightness. When you really watched the first rider just looked like a stick up there. The second rider was effective and really flowed with the horse - maybe called workmanlike? I guess it would be the difference in water shooting from a fire hose versus going down a stream. One is fluid and the other isn't. I don't think you have to have perfect positioning but as others said, it is more about feel, moving with the horse (or sometimes a little against to get the horse to do something different) but in a fluid motion.

The second person I mention above is now a world renowned groom. She's groomed/grooms barns for Olympic event horses. Her sympathetic way with riding horses carried over with the way she handles horses on the ground too.

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Re: Position as it relates to effectiveness

Postby Tsavo » Fri Dec 29, 2017 6:52 pm

Rosie your post was interesting throughout but I wanted to focus on this part...

Rosie B wrote:So for me, in my journey with the horses that I've had, I focus on effectiveness first and position second. Once you get to a new level of effectiveness, then you can refine your position. If you are continuously refining your position without addressing your effectiveness (WHILE trying to train the horse up the levels), you won't get as far.


I think some instructors essentially agree with this in the way they teach. I had an instructor who basically was looking at the horse to see if he was moving correctly. There were occasional remarks to me about my position but it was like she left it to me to figure out how to be effective. Because I knew the technical details of each movement, I knew what it had to look like and where the feet had to fall w.r.t the horse's line of travel and the side of the arena. That approach was effective to a certain extent.

Another instructor focused A LOT on seat. That was helpful but that was not married too much with learning to ride movements for their therapeutic value to the horse.

I wasted a lot of years trying to ride dressage without having the necessary core and especially back muscles and limber hip flexors. These are abilities and not talents so everyone can attain them with gym work. I would say sufficient core, back muscles, and limber hip flexors allows correct position so that effectiveness is increased. Riding correctly is simply easier with correct position in my opinion. For talented people who have a body genius, I think they can ride in any position. But for people like me, it is definitely easier to ride the closer I can approximate correct position.

For the questions...

1. What are the limits of position before it affects effectiveness?

They would be the limits of a person's body genius. High body genius allows more departure from correct.

2. How come elite rides have obvious positional differences?

Different body types and levels of body genius.

3. How come elite riders have positions that differ from what is considered "correct" yet they are still obviously effective?

Body genius.

4. Why was an obviously poor position of an ex-Olympian included in a DT edition several years ago? (rhetorical)

Maybe so amateurs don't beat themselves up so much?

5. What positions are common (non-negotiable) for effective riders?

Shoulders back and down and core. You have to be pretty talented if you ride effectively at a high level and don't have an open hip angle in my opinion.

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Re: Position as it relates to effectiveness

Postby piedmontfields » Fri Dec 29, 2017 10:44 pm

khall wrote:While I do agree the effectiveness is affected :) by our core, my opinion is effectiveness is more related to rider feel. If you cannot feel what is happening under your seat and be able to diagnose and address the issues, then regardless of the integrity of your core you will not be effective.


I'm probably going to mess up this thread, but I would say that one can be "effective" to a certain degree without feel. Or with limited feel.

However, one may not want to emulate that form of effectiveness!

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Re: Position as it relates to effectiveness

Postby Tsavo » Fri Dec 29, 2017 11:18 pm

piedmontfields wrote:I'm probably going to mess up this thread,


Impossible. This stuff is not high stakes. :-)

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Re: Position as it relates to effectiveness

Postby demi » Sat Dec 30, 2017 2:07 am

Rosie B wrote:...

If you have a beautiful position and no structural integrity, you're not going anywhere. ....



This is just my opinion, but I don’t think it is even possible to have a beautiful position if it lacks structural integrity. I think effectiveness and structural integrity are a huge part of a beautiful, elegant position. I have seen very beautiful riders with short legs, no necks, and even carrying a good bit of extra weight. But they were quiet, correct, and had tremendous structural integrity. These qualities made them effective. And because they were effective, their horses moved beautifully and the riders moved beautifully with them.

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Re: Position as it relates to effectiveness

Postby Tsavo » Sat Dec 30, 2017 2:13 am

I have seen beautiful position coupled with ineffective riding. I saw a very new rider hold her position as if her life depended on it. I am still in awe over it. She couldn't ride at all but she was in position. It is called posing. Horses do it also. It can be accomplished through stiffness versus tone.

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Re: Position as it relates to effectiveness

Postby demi » Sat Dec 30, 2017 2:40 am

But how could it be beautiful if it was accomplished by stiffness? Stiffness is not beautiful in dressage.

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Re: Position as it relates to effectiveness

Postby Tsavo » Sat Dec 30, 2017 2:48 am

She was in position and stayed there. She did not collapse at the waist, did not lean forward, did not lean back, did not slump her shoulders, she had a reasonable line from shoulder to hip to heel, she looked ahead, her heels were down, etc. etc. That's how I am using beautiful. Textbook body part position.

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Re: Position as it relates to effectiveness

Postby demi » Sat Dec 30, 2017 2:54 am

Textbook body parts! Sounds painful :lol:

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Re: Position as it relates to effectiveness

Postby Tsavo » Sat Dec 30, 2017 2:58 am

I bet she had dance training or gymnastics training to be able to do that.

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Re: Position as it relates to effectiveness

Postby StraightForward » Sat Dec 30, 2017 3:35 am

demi wrote:
Rosie B wrote:...

If you have a beautiful position and no structural integrity, you're not going anywhere. ....



This is just my opinion, but I don’t think it is even possible to have a beautiful position if it lacks structural integrity. I think effectiveness and structural integrity are a huge part of a beautiful, elegant position. I have seen very beautiful riders with short legs, no necks, and even carrying a good bit of extra weight. But they were quiet, correct, and had tremendous structural integrity. These qualities made them effective. And because they were effective, their horses moved beautifully and the riders moved beautifully with them.


I was going to mention in my previous post, but probably got distracted by something shiny...

In the Ritter's course I'm doing now, they talked about the horse's core needing to be strong so the outer parts of the horse can be soft and supple. I observed that the same is true for the rider. A rider that holds herself in a pretty position with the outer muscles make look pretty, but will not be effective. A rider with a strong core may be effective without the outer parts looking pretty. The penultimate is a strong core with the outer parts in correct position yet completely supple, thanks to the solid core of strength and balance.
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Re: Position as it relates to effectiveness

Postby Tsavo » Sat Dec 30, 2017 2:57 pm

khall wrote:While I do agree the effectiveness is affected :) by our core, my opinion is effectiveness is more related to rider feel. If you cannot feel what is happening under your seat and be able to diagnose and address the issues, then regardless of the integrity of your core you will not be effective.


I'm going to agree with this and I think it amplifies my statement about if you have a body genius you can slide more on fitness and equitation. Body genius is probably a heritable trait like intelligence-intelligence (G) and so is not really controlled by how much you go to the gym and develop your core. I worked with a guy who didn't have much coaching in basketball but he moved like an NBA player when playing basketball. That is body genius.

The proof is we have very old people who cannot possibly have much physical fitness who nevertheless are riding expertly and effortlessly.

The other proof is we have twenty-somethings riding on strong Olympic teams when it supposedly takes "two life times" to learn dressage. Body genius.

I need massive core and explicitly open hip angle and strong back muscles to pull the shoulder blades to make up for a lack of body genius. So I have made it possible to have better balance so I can feel the horse much better that had eluded me when I wasn't working out at the gym. I have always been athletic and good at sports but that never translated to riding until I got very very fit. Riding is off the scale.

I think one common pitfall when learning to ride is that we come out of position, deliberately or not, in an effort to be effective. The woman I mentioned earlier who was a new rider but never came out of position is explained by her not actually doing anything to pull her out of position. She was also sold a lame stallion and I think she was afraid to come out of position. That was a hot mess.

Over the years, I have focused more and more on NOT coming out of position in an effort to be effective. Instead of abandoning ship, I try a different timing or weight my seat differently rather than come out of position. That has helped to always maintain some focus on position no matter what else I am doing. I think elite riders are doing that and why they still use mirrors extensively.

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Re: Position as it relates to effectiveness

Postby Dresseur » Sat Dec 30, 2017 4:03 pm

This subject is obviously near and dear to my heart. I think that there are two things at play, well... 3, if I really think about it. Position, effectiveness, and then feel. I think that the same way that horses have a training scale, riders have a training scale, and IMO, it needs to start at position. That being said, I do think that there are some that have feel, that may not have the best position or vice versa - meaning, that different riders have different gifts, the same way that horses have different gifts. For example, a horse can be incredibly supple, but struggle with connection through it's body.

With position, I think that's the first rung, no matter what. There are certain musts - sit up straight, a bend to the elbow, good alignment. That starts from the first second you get on a horse, your very first lessons. Beyond that, you need to learn to knit yourself together - the use of core, independent use of hands, legs and seat. I think that you can become a good rider with these tools. If your toe turns out slightly, the horse can still perform. If you are in a slight chair seat, the horse can still do as you ask, but you may not be as effective as the rider who has a perfect seat (say Ingrid Klimke). I think yes, gifted riders have amazing proprioception, and this helps speed the process along. Now, horses can be trained to perform tricks based on cues, so can someone piaffe in a chair seat, or do flying changes while ducking from side to side - yes, of course. But it often doesn't look very elegant, and IMO, the horses often have deviations (swinging changes, rope-walking or triangulated piaffe... whatever).

That brings me to effectiveness (and by the way, I don't think that these are linear any more than horse training is linear). You can learn to be effective on one particular horse - complete with all the idiosyncrasies that come with that horse (many of us fall into this bucket). And you can learn to be effective on many horses (the trainers). When you are an effective rider, IMO you are less likely to fall out of position if the horse doesn't move off your leg properly. You don't have to beg for a movement, you don't warp or twist if the horse doesn't carry the right bend. You direct the horse, can troubleshoot issues while riding, and the horse matches you.

(As an aside, I think that some elite riders fall into the category of being effective on certain horses, but they cannot train horses correctly. I've heard the excuse that elite riders don't want to deal with green shenanigans, but I think that there are ways to manage that - CH and CDuJ manage that and train a wide variety of horses. Other riders become successful with one horse, and then struggle to find another match, I think it's because they learn to cope with the idiosyncratic behaviors of that particular horse. Laura Graves is one that I put into this bucket - she's a beautiful rider, but found success on one very talented, very idiosyncratic horse.)

Lastly - to me, the holy grail, feel. Some riders are born with this. I was not. But I firmly believe, that with the right training, you can learn feel. Will it be as innate as those who just have it, maybe not. But you can learn to identify a certain feeling and learn to recreate that feeling. For a majority of us, (me included), position and effectiveness is important to learning and identifying what things should feel like. But remember, our body calibrates to certain things- so if you were taught that a certain response, and what you felt from that response was correct - you will remember that. Which is why we need to trust our trainers. That is also what the mirrors are for, to that riders can match a look to a feel (either rider position or horse position, ie., that shoulder in feels good, but you look up and realize that the horse is not on 3 tracks).

I personally focus on position because 1: I'm OCD, 2: I want to be as effective as I can be, 3: it's fun for me. But, I don't think for a second that a person with less than perfect position can't be a good rider. We see it all the time. Which brings me to those riders that are maybe less then elegant or the aging rider who despite hunched shoulders (Nuno), can elicit beautiful responses out of horses. I think that those riders have tremendous feel, and are incredibly effective despite positional flaws. The know how to use their body in such a way that things like shoulders don't matter as much - because they are so on top of the horse (in terms of balance etc) that the horse never falls so far out of balance that they never have to play catch up like us mere mortals. That's just my opinion.

The last thing I want to say is that I don't personally understand why stiffness (when learning) seems to be such an anathema. At first, you have to hold yourself in position as you counteract the movement of the horse and learn where your body is in space. Suppleness comes later. Of course, there is a big problem if you never move past stiffness. But at first, riding is difficult, it's not that natural. I liken it to learning ballet - those little girls and boys at the barre are stiff in their movements as they mimic what will eventually become elegant, supple movement. But there is no choice, they must hold the positions that will eventually come naturally to them. Riders are the same - you have to hold the position, and through repetition, it becomes natural. Eventually, you don't have to think about sitting up straight, or shoulders back - it just is. And you become able to move within those parameters and suppleness comes from it. Think of all the times we've told ourselves to look up, or to sit up, or shoulders back...whatever you are working on - you are stiff in those moments as your body struggles to meet a new requirement, and you remind yourself a 100x until it's second nature. When that happens, you can be purposeful in your adjustments and you become supple.

Anyway, those are my 2, maybe 5 cents lol.


Edited to add the actual answers to the op's questions:
1. What are the limits of position before it affects effectiveness?
- IMO, if you have no core/seat integrity, you cannot be effective beyond kick and pull.

2. How come elite rides have obvious positional differences?
- I think that some of what you see are stylistic differences (heavy driving seats vs more "classical" seats) Plus, there are a wide range of body types among riders. Not everyone is tall and lanky like CduJ.

3. How come elite riders have positions that differ from what is considered "correct" yet they are still obviously effective?
- again, I say stylistic differences, plus feel. HOWEVER, think about the riders that differ, and in what ways they differ, and then think of what kinds of rides they have. Riders that ride closer to ideal tend to have rides that I enjoy (Ingrid Klimke for one). Kyra K has a chair seat in most pics and vids that I've seen of her - not something that I would seek to emulate, however, she is clearly effective.

4. Why was an obviously poor position of an ex-Olympian included in a DT edition several years ago? (rhetorical)
- not sure I saw that cover, so I can't comment.

5. What positions are common (non-negotiable) for effective riders?-
- Not sure 100% what you mean by that. So, hopefully I'm answering the question in the way that you intended... I think that if you have core integrity, and a well trained horse, you can get away with a lot of deviations. I think that a fork seat is a worse sin than a chair seat, I don't think wobbling ankles (SP inhibit his ability in the slightest), but all the riders have the ability to direct motion and keep themselves steady to aid clearly.
Last edited by Dresseur on Sat Dec 30, 2017 5:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Position as it relates to effectiveness

Postby kande50 » Sat Dec 30, 2017 4:28 pm

Tsavo wrote:
The proof is we have very old people who cannot possibly have much physical fitness who nevertheless are riding expertly and effortlessly.


Do we actually see that, though? I agree that there are a lot of older riders out there who are still experts when it comes to feel/knowledge/tact..., but do they actually still have enough endurance to ride effortlessly? They certainly don't have enough strength or endurance to maintain the kind of position they once could; or maybe they actually are maintaining as good (as balanced and stable) a position but it just looks different?

The other proof is we have twenty-somethings riding on strong Olympic teams when it supposedly takes "two life times" to learn dressage. Body genius.


I don't think that was the kind of dressage anyone was talking about when they stated that it takes two lifetimes to learn it.



I think one common pitfall when learning to ride is that we come out of position, deliberately or not, in an effort to be effective. The woman I mentioned earlier who was a new rider but never came out of position is explained by her not actually doing anything to pull her out of position.


My take on that is that when a rider comes out of position to try to be more effective what they're often doing is push-pulling harder, which unfortunately, does often inspire the horse to put in more effort, which rewards the rider for working harder. Trouble is, it's a hollow victory, because it misleads riders into thinking that they need to work harder to get the horse to comply, which isn't ever going to work to accomplish anything that IMO, is worth accomplishing.

IOW, if the rider can't get what they're getting in response to soft, light aids from a stable position, then what they're getting is never going to become something they can use to develop soft, light work. They can always go back and retrain it so they do have something they can build on, but once they go down the "push harder" road then that's what they're stuck with until they fix it.

Over the years, I have focused more and more on NOT coming out of position in an effort to be effective. Instead of abandoning ship, I try a different timing or weight my seat differently rather than come out of position. That has helped to always maintain some focus on position no matter what else I am doing. I think elite riders are doing that and why they still use mirrors extensively.
[/quote]

Same here, although I am willing to come out of position to attempt to clarify what I want, but only if I can do it without increasing the pressure. I already fell into the trap of pushing my horse harder to try to get more faster, and I've certainly seen enough riders do the same to know that the results that come out of that kind of riding are nothing I'm ever going to want.

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Re: Position as it relates to effectiveness

Postby Tsavo » Sun Dec 31, 2017 6:59 pm

Dresseur this is a very interesting post. I am just picking these passages to highlight...

Dresseur wrote: That is also what the mirrors are for, to that riders can match a look to a feel (either rider position or horse position, ie., that shoulder in feels good, but you look up and realize that the horse is not on 3 tracks).


I take your point but I think it is not so much something feels "good" that is wrong but that people don't know what "right" feels like so they may just declare victory randomly and hopefully. But the fact is there are a dozen ways to get anything in dressage wrong and most of them don't feel "wrong". There are many times I thought I was doing something right and it wasn't because I didn't know what "right" actually felt like. There are so many shades of incorrect SI for example but one right way. The wrong ways don't set off alarm bells until you ride enough correct ones. For SI, I think feel can be as good as mirrors when you know what is right.

I personally focus on position because 1: I'm OCD, 2: I want to be as effective as I can be, 3: it's fun for me. But, I don't think for a second that a person with less than perfect position can't be a good rider. We see it all the time. Which brings me to those riders that are maybe less then elegant or the aging rider who despite hunched shoulders (Nuno), can elicit beautiful responses out of horses. I think that those riders have tremendous feel, and are incredibly effective despite positional flaws. The know how to use their body in such a way that things like shoulders don't matter as much - because they are so on top of the horse (in terms of balance etc) that the horse never falls so far out of balance that they never have to play catch up like us mere mortals. That's just my opinion.


I agree with this. The less body genius you have, the more correct position you need. Focusing on position has helped me because of this.

The last thing I want to say is that I don't personally understand why stiffness (when learning) seems to be such an anathema. At first, you have to hold yourself in position as you counteract the movement of the horse and learn where your body is in space. Suppleness comes later. Of course, there is a big problem if you never move past stiffness. But at first, riding is difficult, it's not that natural. I liken it to learning ballet - those little girls and boys at the barre are stiff in their movements as they mimic what will eventually become elegant, supple movement. But there is no choice, they must hold the positions that will eventually come naturally to them. Riders are the same - you have to hold the position, and through repetition, it becomes natural. Eventually, you don't have to think about sitting up straight, or shoulders back - it just is. And you become able to move within those parameters and suppleness comes from it. Think of all the times we've told ourselves to look up, or to sit up, or shoulders back...whatever you are working on - you are stiff in those moments as your body struggles to meet a new requirement, and you remind yourself a 100x until it's second nature. When that happens, you can be purposeful in your adjustments and you become supple.


I understand what you are saying but I think it would help people if they were told what they can stiffen at first and what not to stiffen at first. Also there are ways to stiffen that are probably less detrimental than others. An example is stiffening your angle open will still show the power of open hip angle to control balance just from being in that position.

2. How come elite rides have obvious positional differences?
- I think that some of what you see are stylistic differences (heavy driving seats vs more "classical" seats) Plus, there are a wide range of body types among riders. Not everyone is tall and lanky like CduJ.


I'm talking about whether there is a line from bit to elbow, where the lower leg is w.r.t the girth, the amount of bend in the elbow, how far they lean back, etc.

4. Why was an obviously poor position of an ex-Olympian included in a DT edition several years ago? (rhetorical)
- not sure I saw that cover, so I can't comment.


It wasn't a cover. It was in an article.
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Re: Position as it relates to effectiveness

Postby Tsavo » Sun Dec 31, 2017 8:51 pm

kande50 wrote:
Tsavo wrote:
The proof is we have very old people who cannot possibly have much physical fitness who nevertheless are riding expertly and effortlessly.


Do we actually see that, though? I agree that there are a lot of older riders out there who are still experts when it comes to feel/knowledge/tact..., but do they actually still have enough endurance to ride effortlessly? They certainly don't have enough strength or endurance to maintain the kind of position they once could; or maybe they actually are maintaining as good (as balanced and stable) a position but it just looks different?


A trainer of mine was clinicking with DeKunffy several years ago and she could't do something he asked with her FEI horse. She asked if he would get on and show her. He proceeded to do so. This issue of very old people riding expertly effortlessly is what made me resistant to getting in shape for so many years. I reasoned that these people are not in any elite shape yet can ride better than most other people. What I was missing was the body genius piece and the independent experimentation piece.

The other proof is we have twenty-somethings riding on strong Olympic teams when it supposedly takes "two life times" to learn dressage. Body genius.


I don't think that was the kind of dressage anyone was talking about when they stated that it takes two lifetimes to learn it.


I am talking about the kind of dressage they are referring to about "two lifetimes".

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Re: Position as it relates to effectiveness

Postby Josette » Mon Jan 01, 2018 2:38 am

Hmmm.... I audited a clinic with CDK some years ago too. He also mounted someone's horse from the ground very easily and demonstrated what he was teaching. Frankly, I was quite impressed with his fitness and flexibility mounting a large WB as he is not a tall rider. His riding was exceptional as would be expected from someone from the SRS.

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Re: Position as it relates to effectiveness

Postby Tsavo » Mon Jan 01, 2018 2:56 am

CdK was never associated with the SRS to my knowledge.

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Re: Position as it relates to effectiveness

Postby Josette » Mon Jan 01, 2018 3:20 am

My mistake - I recalled he had a very impressive background training with great masters in Vienna.

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Re: Position as it relates to effectiveness

Postby Dresseur » Mon Jan 01, 2018 1:57 pm

Happy New Year's everyone!

Tsavo, you're right - I should have also said mirrors are for confirming what's right! If I distill further, I think that mirrors essentially help riders to match a look to a feel.

For this:
I'm talking about whether there is a line from bit to elbow, where the lower leg is w.r.t the girth, the amount of bend in the elbow, how far they lean back, etc.
I think that the individual conformations of horse and rider DO play a roll. On some horses a rider with short arms may have to raise the hands to have more bend in the elbow. Or a particularly wide horse, or a horse where the girth sits far back may change the look of the leg. But, I do still think styles have a roll here. The stereotypical heavy germanic riding tends to sit back and lean and be in a bit of a chair seat. I put Catherine Haddad in this bucket. Elite riders who cut their teeth on horses that curl easily tend to carry a bit of a higher hand, so do riders that identify themselves as more classical. I've noticed that riders that on heavier baroque-type horses seem to carry a bit of a lower hand, maybe because the necks are so cresty and they can jack the necks up so quickly. Again, I also think that the trainers among the elite can change subtle things in their positions as it relates to the horse they are riding (hand height... that sort of thing), whereas the riders who are one trick ponies tend to never vary very far.

And, sorry, misread that it said article vs cover. I didn't see that article :/

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Re: Position as it relates to effectiveness

Postby Tsavo » Mon Jan 01, 2018 2:12 pm

First I want to associate myself with your comment about Haddad. But when people trying to learn this sport are told they need to work to open the hip angle and then see Haddad, what are they supposed to think?

Also the comment about riders who raise the hands and break the line upward. I don't think that is always due to rider arm length. I think many elite riders do it because it is effective for them at that level as a deliberate departure from the standard wisdom. So many do it that I am wondering if the standard wisdom is actually the only road to Rome on this. But how is a lower level person supposed to process that when they are told to always have a line from bit to elbow and when they can see some elite riders do have that?

For elite riders, I think most of what they do is a choice that they make for a reason. Those reasons may relate only to elite riding but I wonder how often they are told that there can be one approach for elites and one for lower level and that there isn't one correct way. I suggest rarely.

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Re: Position as it relates to effectiveness

Postby Dresseur » Mon Jan 01, 2018 2:36 pm

I agree Tsavo. Learning this sport is incredibly hard because of the flood of images (correct and incorrect) at the top levels, never mind instructors that have poor positions or are only worried about how the horse looks.

There are varying roads to Rome, not all with the same results. There are many ways to teach a piaffe - I know of a few that will lead to levade. (3 ecoles). Riders have to choose which to follow. Some of that is putting your trust into the trainers and coaches you choose to associate with, some of it is educating ourselves with literature so that we have a framework to have informed discussions with those trainers and coaches, and the rest is riding, riding, riding. The more we learn, and the more mastery over our positions in the saddle, the deeper the toolbox we have. But IMO, any rider that I teach, I start with the basics - proper alignment in the saddle and with respect to body parts and how they align with the horse (bit the mouth). I do take into consideration anatomy or prior injury etc.

I think that you gain the ability to deviate for purposeful reasons. But I don't believe for a second that all riders are doing it purposefully, not even some elite riders. But, by and large, when you get to that level - you are after a specific feel in the horse, and if a higher hand or lower hand gets you that feel, you use it. (For example... I would generally not carry a high hand on a friesan, my hand is a touch lower (not broken line by any means, just lower) than on a horse with a different neck conformation. But that is a choice that I'm making based on how the horse feels, and the overall conformation of the horse.

I just don't think that a rider can make those choices when they start, they have to be told - and they have to match feel to look so that they can gain an educated seat and feel and THEN start making those choices. And, if you don't have a stable position, you can't alter much and you certainly can't really influence in a meaningful way to improve the horse.


Editing to add: I think that it's the student's responsibility to ask questions and try. Don't just look at pictures and emulate - ask. Why do we want a more open hip angle? And if we open that hip angle it can't be at the expense of the pelvis tipping into a fork seat. Catherine Haddad has a reason for her position - she calls it skeletal riding... I call it a chair seat. But I don't subscribe to her methods, and if I didn't educate my eye and ask questions, maybe I would feel that it is the position to emulate. So, if you are working on position - ask questions, and keep your ears open. Just this past week, I was riding during one of Andrea's other student's lessons... and she said something to the student. She (Andrea) had an overly flexible back - she used to be a gymnast. So when she was learning... she imagined bringing her lower ribs to her hips. I had never heard that before, so I tried it (I may have done something different than what the analogy intended - because to me, doing that feels like I'm sucking in my solar plexus somehow... but it worked.) It instantly solved the canter positional issue that I've been trying to correct and it drew me up and brought the movement very low in my hips as opposed to rocking my upper body back and forth. I also don't think that this would have been solved only riding one horse - the more horses I ride, the more I'm picking things apart because the more different things I'm feeling and being exposed to.

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Re: Position as it relates to effectiveness

Postby piedmontfields » Mon Jan 01, 2018 3:18 pm

All very interesting comments. I do admit to liking Haddad's video lessons, but then I just listen to them and don't watch much!

I think what eventually helped me to a small level of competency in riding is that I very quickly had feel and was taught feel--PLUS I read and was taught theory. I am not an amazing athlete (although I played many sports and continued cardio workouts plus lots of yoga into adulthood, so I familiar with being "in shape"). I don't have a great body for riding: I have short legs and a long torso (thankfully, I have a small chest or I'd really wobble). I am not naturally supple, although I've been strong in my core most of my life. I have only ridden about 5 hours a week for the last 15 years, so I don't have the intensity of training/learning that others had at various points in life.

However, I have feel for good timing, and the ability to remember and search for a feel And to some extent, I can see a good feel, too. It does surprise me when very pretty, athletic, strong in the core, well-positioned riders don't notice things that are going on. However, as Dresseur points out, it can change and feel can be learned. I think it often takes a lot of horses and bigger challenges (ex. training more than one up the levels) to realize that feel is a necessary part of it.The theory piece of learning often takes place away from the horse for me, but I find that understanding sneaks back in to help me recognize correct feel.

I don't know if this will make sense to anyone else, but if you train dogs to a high level, you also need a lot of feel and decent theory (understanding of how dogs learn/think). This is why exceptional trainers have great timing and a great sense of how intense a situation or correction should be, according to the particular dog in that moment. I am thinking about this in terms of bird dogs (where we demand a lot of obedience in high pressure situations, while also wanting to keep our dogs super keen and stylish). But other kinds of training also demand that feel for timing/adjustment.

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Re: Position as it relates to effectiveness

Postby Tsavo » Mon Jan 01, 2018 5:37 pm

Dresseur wrote:[snip...]The more we learn, and the more mastery over our positions in the saddle, the deeper the toolbox we have. But IMO, any rider that I teach, I start with the basics - proper alignment in the saddle and with respect to body parts and how they align with the horse (bit the mouth). I do take into consideration anatomy or prior injury etc.


Yes I agree you should start with textbook although you better be ready to talk about how elite riders don't do things by the book yet are effective.

I think that you gain the ability to deviate for purposeful reasons. But I don't believe for a second that all riders are doing it purposefully, not even some elite riders. But, by and large, when you get to that level - you are after a specific feel in the horse, and if a higher hand or lower hand gets you that feel, you use it. (For example... I would generally not carry a high hand on a friesan, my hand is a touch lower (not broken line by any means, just lower) than on a horse with a different neck conformation. But that is a choice that I'm making based on how the horse feels, and the overall conformation of the horse.


My approach to riding Friesians is to never sit on one. Why work that hard? :-)

I just don't think that a rider can make those choices when they start, they have to be told - and they have to match feel to look so that they can gain an educated seat and feel and THEN start making those choices. And, if you don't have a stable position, you can't alter much and you certainly can't really influence in a meaningful way to improve the horse.


Yes but here again a new rider will feel more stable in a chair seat yet they can't be as effective unless they open their hip angle until they get to the elite levels as with Haddad. The Haddad thing may seem to some people like a "get-out-of-open-hip-angle-and-toned-core-free" card. If they are struggling with hip angle and core, some would want to play that card. Then what do you say?

Editing to add: I think that it's the student's responsibility to ask questions and try. Don't just look at pictures and emulate - ask. Why do we want a more open hip angle? And if we open that hip angle it can't be at the expense of the pelvis tipping into a fork seat. Catherine Haddad has a reason for her position - she calls it skeletal riding... I call it a chair seat. But I don't subscribe to her methods, and if I didn't educate my eye and ask questions, maybe I would feel that it is the position to emulate.


I think a student will be skeptical of words about why an open hip angle is useful until they actually feel it. That is not the most obvious and intuitive thing out there. looking at human skeletons and horse skeletons, nobody would a priori arrive at much of what is considered effective equitation. It is mostly empirical trial and error over the centuries. It's not really a science ad hoc just so explanations notwithstanding.

So, if you are working on position - ask questions, and keep your ears open. Just this past week, I was riding during one of Andrea's other student's lessons... and she said something to the student. She (Andrea) had an overly flexible back - she used to be a gymnast. So when she was learning... she imagined bringing her lower ribs to her hips. I had never heard that before, so I tried it (I may have done something different than what the analogy intended - because to me, doing that feels like I'm sucking in my solar plexus somehow... but it worked.) It instantly solved the canter positional issue that I've been trying to correct and it drew me up and brought the movement very low in my hips as opposed to rocking my upper body back and forth. I also don't think that this would have been solved only riding one horse - the more horses I ride, the more I'm picking things apart because the more different things I'm feeling and being exposed to.


I feel like this canter thing is one area where there is a common failure to communicate. I think virtually everyone could do it correctly very quickly if just told the right words and perhaps sitting on one of those balmalo (sp?) chairs. Just figuring out that the hips can go wherever the horse goes but to keep the upper body vertical is what did it for me. Just have that image of letting the horse move the hips anywhere but focusing on keeping the upper body stacked is not that hard to do. It is not very technical in my opinion. I wasn't told that in any lesson. It occurred to me while using that chair. I never pumped again. Obviously I didn't suddenly become more talented. It was just a failure to be told the right words or to sit on the chair.

I have many such observations. If I thought I could find a publisher, I would put them in a small book and see if anyone would buy it. It would be titled "Things I Wish My Instructor Told Me". LOL

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Re: Position as it relates to effectiveness

Postby Dresseur » Mon Jan 01, 2018 6:03 pm

Yes but here again a new rider will feel more stable in a chair seat yet they can't be as effective unless they open their hip angle until they get to the elite levels as with Haddad. The Haddad thing may seem to some people like a "get-out-of-open-hip-angle-and-toned-core-free" card. If they are struggling with hip angle and core, some would want to play that card. Then what do you say?


I think a student will be skeptical of words about why an open hip angle is useful until they actually feel it. That is not the most obvious and intuitive thing out there. looking at human skeletons and horse skeletons, nobody would a priori arrive at much of what is considered effective equitation. It is mostly empirical trial and error over the centuries. It's not really a science ad hoc just so explanations notwithstanding.


There are some unmounted exercises that very quickly get the point across about why the stance-like position and the hip angle is important, especially to the stability of a riders position in the saddle. So, I have people do those so that they can feel the ramifications of varying positional flaws right off the bat. I also have candid conversations with people about why something is correct vs. incorrect and how that relates as it pertains to their goals. Do you want to influence a horse quietly and in balance? Work to get rid of the chair seat. But, you also can't put new riders, and especially H/J converts into the long legged position of someone who has been riding dressage for many years. The first thing someone wants to do is grip with their legs, go fetal, or sit on their back pockets like in a hammock. Shorter stirrups are fine... like I said, IMO a fork seat is a worse sin than a chair seat. I give those people off horse exercises to help. I also am honest about how long the process takes and that I'm even still working on my position. My coach is the same.

In terms of the canter...Most people wouldn't have looked at me in the canter and picked up on something being off. I can ride the canter quietly, my legs don't move about, I was in the rhythm etc, I looked in one piece (my hips weren't doing the hula or anything - basically correct. It was a matter of effectiveness, particularly when it came to collecting horses from my seat/back. I have been told 6-ways to Sunday in many, many fashions... have had it demonstrated, have had it shown to me, have been working on it through more difficult movements, and easier movements, as well as back to basics (no stirrups etc.). It is a connection thing that was missing - and that connection was because even though I technically had my core engaged, I just wasn't knit together. I think I found it so difficult because I have shorter legs and am very long in the torso, so it was very easy for me to work harder, not smarter and start leaning forward just a bit, and bringing my hands slightly back to my body.

So, idk if I buy that anyone can do it correctly if they just had the right words told to them. I was not grossly incorrect in the position, just not effective in the canter - or I'll say, just not as effective as I am in the trot.

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Re: Position as it relates to effectiveness

Postby Tsavo » Mon Jan 01, 2018 6:32 pm

I think I misunderstood you then. I agree the "collecting maneuver" which involves a timed flicking/fluffing of the lower back essentially is not obvious and is not solely a matter of telling someone the right words or sitting on a chair. It is hard because I think it involves not the front core like everything else but the lower back. And people with more than a little lordosis have a hard time just due to that in my opinion. For me that came with wet saddle blankets experimenting and doing correct walk downhills. The only word picture I have to guide feel of that is to change the movement ovals from horizontal to vertical.

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Re: Position as it relates to effectiveness

Postby piedmontfields » Mon Jan 01, 2018 10:34 pm

Putting on my ancient yoga instructor hat for a moment (I have retired from teaching yoga):

Many, many practitioners of yoga and other movement modalities (e.g. dance) need to learn about degrees of "knitting" the body together. Ex. someone with less knitting and a habit or conformation of long sway back will have to do more work to "drop the ribs to hips" and "knit in all the way around" before they can safely do most inversions. Or IMO even stand up in a healthy way!

In yoga, I worried/was most careful with the limber, long lower back students, as it was just so easy for them to get into situations that could be harmful to them. Stiffer, rounded back students could not get into spine compromising positions very easily! (of course they tried to---but they were slower and easier to redirect)

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Re: Position as it relates to effectiveness

Postby Tsavo » Mon Jan 01, 2018 11:30 pm

Dresseur wrote:It is a connection thing that was missing - and that connection was because even though I technically had my core engaged, I just wasn't knit together. I think I found it so difficult because I have shorter legs and am very long in the torso, so it was very easy for me to work harder, not smarter and start leaning forward just a bit, and bringing my hands slightly back to my body.


In re knitted together, I think Wanless has a technique where you simultaneously push out in all four directions from your lower abdomen. Now this is obviously a word suggestion that doesn't map to reality so what is really going on in my opinion is what you did with the ribs being brought closer to the hips. I think Wanless explicitly says to do this also. I think what is also really happening is that it flattens the lumbar slightly without causing a collapse in the upper body. The same can be accomplished by what you and I have mentioned before... sitting towards the front of the saddle.

I reviewed Haddad's skeletal riding video. This is exactly not what Wanless suggests which is to apportion weight between seat, thighs and stirrups. What Haddad is doing is emphasizing the idea of staying on with balance alone which is how most good riders ride in my opinion. I will disagree that you need to be in a chair on your toes to accomplish that. That said, I did have a GP instructor who, upon my looking back, rode similarly to Haddad in terms of starting out the ride with the heels up and ending with a fairly level foot. She told me she stays on with balance alone and it should feel as precarious as that sounds. I have always kept that in mind and it has helped me.

Haddad appears to sit ON the horse where Dujardin appears to sit IN the horse. I prefer the latter.

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Re: Position as it relates to effectiveness

Postby khall » Tue Jan 02, 2018 1:25 am

I agree the "collecting maneuver" which involves a timed flicking/fluffing of the lower back essentially is not obvious and is not solely a matter of telling someone the right words or sitting on a chair. It is hard because I think it involves not the front core like everything else but the lower back. [quote][/quote]
tsavo this makes no sense to me. To me collecting in the canter is about activity of the hind legs, it is my calves that "fluff" the horse up not my lower back. I hold with my seat in a shorter motion (remember the Heather Moffat video on the mechanical horse) but it is my calves that get the activity for collection into the collecting outside rein. Though I have found with Rip if I lighten my rein and ask for activity he gets even more collected in the canter.

I just cannot picture what you are saying for collecting the canter.

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Re: Position as it relates to effectiveness

Postby Red's Mom » Tue Jan 02, 2018 1:54 am

I have seen many riders look beautiful on school horses. Do they have the horse on the bit? No. Do they have a good position? Yes, but are they effective? No. Knowing the textbook requisites for proper position is easy to learn. To get the horse to move properly and maintain that proper position as a dressage rider is the hard part. When you see horse and rider together riding beautifully, it may look effortless, but it is not. There are so many muscles working together, muscles moving only as much as it takes to get what looks beautiful and effortless.

In addition, take a seasoned dressage rider and put them on a 3 year old just under saddle, until that horse and rider have worked together for a while, it is not going to be beautiful. Granted a professional will look better on a 3 year old then a beginner, but riding youngsters can make even the best riders fall out of position.

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Re: Position as it relates to effectiveness

Postby Tsavo » Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:38 am

khall wrote:
Tsavo wrote:I agree the "collecting maneuver" which involves a timed flicking/fluffing of the lower back essentially is not obvious and is not solely a matter of telling someone the right words or sitting on a chair. It is hard because I think it involves not the front core like everything else but the lower back.

tsavo this makes no sense to me. To me collecting in the canter is about activity of the hind legs, it is my calves that "fluff" the horse up not my lower back. I hold with my seat in a shorter motion (remember the Heather Moffat video on the mechanical horse) but it is my calves that get the activity for collection into the collecting outside rein. Though I have found with Rip if I lighten my rein and ask for activity he gets even more collected in the canter.

I just cannot picture what you are saying for collecting the canter.


What you do works also and I think it is how collection can be trained. What I do could be described as a seat HH directed at the hind legs so they fold more for the collection. My weight is momentarily sent back a bit and that allows the front to come up a bit. I will add leg if just seat doesn't work and my horse falls behind the leg. The hard part for me is always keeping the topline long and arced away and not letting the horse get short in the neck. If a horse is in position, he will be in the outside rein.

Gal is the extreme of this... riding high collection with legs away.

I found this... see what you think of it... https://dressagetoday.com/instruction/c ... nter-27244

Also Savoie... http://www.janesavoie.com/collecting-canter/

and this... http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/s ... clnk&gl=us

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Re: Position as it relates to effectiveness

Postby Red's Mom » Tue Jan 02, 2018 6:29 pm

Thanks for posting those great articles!

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Re: Position as it relates to effectiveness

Postby khall » Tue Jan 02, 2018 9:05 pm

Thanks tsavo for the links! The dressage today to me is typical of more competitive riding, using the driving seat aid and I am not a fan of this particular style of riding. Now I do like what Jane Savoie wrote, much more along the lines of what I do.

This is my thinking though with collection: it is more about our upper body than seat. We hold with the upper body with erect posture but keep the seat moving to follow the horse. There may be a time when you briefly use the seat for "go" but not sustained (why I cringe when driving seat is talked about) but it is the calf that encourages the hind legs to stay active (whip if necessary) and our upper body/outside rein for collection. In canter I have always thought about outside leg long and down to ground the outside hind but after riding with Mark I have found activating the hind legs more beneficial with light rein so the horse can lift in front. I will try to get some video of Rip cantering on lunge no side reins to show what I mean how he has been worked. I have some video of him US in canter I need to post, just have not looked up my youtube acct lately!

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Re: Position as it relates to effectiveness

Postby Ponichiwa » Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:21 pm

On the topic of seat aids:

My goal for my horses is for them to choose to go freely forwards unless I ask for something different-- which means my seat is passive unless I'm asking to increase collection or, in some cases, reinforce or regulate tempo. But the horses generally don't start at that point; you've got to build them towards it and sometimes yes that means a bit of a driving seat (GO MEANS GO) and tests that you can take the legs away and the horse keeps cruising.

But there is a big difference between my hot pony mare who will chose to run away with the tempo and the stereotypical big warmblood type that needs more motivation to go. My mare took a lot of wet saddle pads to get to the point where I could keep my leg softly on without her running off, and my older Hanoverian gelding of years past needed the exact opposite in order to make him find some self propulsion.

On the topic of position:
Perfect posture without perfect timing will get you less far than perfect timing without perfect posture. For examples, I've seen cowboys with a slump get really good (if not entirely classical Dressage, as they say) work out of tense horses and I'm fairly certain everyone has seen an example of the opposite.

That said. It's really hard to learn correct timing if you are also not close to the approximate "right" position. If you lean too far behind your neutral balance point, you're asking your horse to compensate for you and also do the opposite of what your posture is telling them to do. If your timing is good enough, you can still get the right response by rewarding quickly when the right response is offered.

Tsavo, I know what you're talking about re: lower back collecting the canter. It's not exactly stilling the seatbones, but like you're bouncing all the ground-covering energy upwards. Hard to explain but once you feel it you know exactly what it's like.

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Re: Position as it relates to effectiveness

Postby Tsavo » Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:40 pm

Ponichiwa wrote:Tsavo, I know what you're talking about re: lower back collecting the canter. It's not exactly stilling the seatbones, but like you're bouncing all the ground-covering energy upwards. Hard to explain but once you feel it you know exactly what it's like.


Yes that is it and I am going to say I don't think it is technically hard. It does not require any body genius LOL. The timing suggests itself. The bottleneck is just finding it and then you can easily do it.

In one of the links it talks about taking the horse's motion and giving it back. I think collecting the canter is exactly like bouncing a ball where you have to lead slightly and add a bit (of seat HH to fold the legs) to keep the bounce going. Once the horse gets it I don't think leg is needed if he stays in front. The seat controls the orientation of the oval. For me, the challenge was to keep the positive tension over the topline by having the neck out and avoiding a short neck. Avoiding the Pepé Le Pew business basically.

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Re: Position as it relates to effectiveness

Postby Borrowed Freedom » Wed Jan 03, 2018 4:36 pm

Jumping in with my own 2 cents. From my own experience I've always struggled with keeping my heels down. I inherited short achilles tendons from my mother that has contributed to that struggle but also here in South Africa the tendency is to focus on the toe pulling up so I've ALWAYS been moaned at about my heels never being lower than my toe. My current instructor actually only recently started focusing on perfecting my position. He's always focused on major flaws such as leaning forward but up till now the main focus has been on getting Delilah to work in a correct frame and not slam on brakes with a tantrum.

The way he explained position to me is up till now we've been focusing on training and riding effectively and sometimes when you're in training mode you can't sit and look pretty. Once the horse is at a level where they are working in a correct frame and are able to hold it then you focus on 'riding' and looking pretty. Another thing is he also said the way I've been taught to put my heels down is wrong as the whole point of heels down is to lengthen the leg and open up the hip. This made a huge difference now on my heels, I find it much easier to actually correct my heels when needed.

I know here in South Africa at least it's a huge issue that people don't understand the reasoning behind certain aspects of riding correctly so they just decide it's not relevant for them. One big issue I've seen is how few people know how to use an independent seat and simply hang on their horses mouths for a downwards transition.

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Re: Position as it relates to effectiveness

Postby Tsavo » Thu Jan 04, 2018 12:33 pm

That's interesting what you say about ways of putting your heel down. Can you say what you were doing before and what you are doing now?

In the skeletal riding videos of Haddad, she says to use the stirrup to raise the toe and not to drop the heel. But of course she already has a perfectly loose leg so that works. That doesn't work on a non-loose leg.

A GP instructor of mine starts rides with the heel up and she is reaching for the stirrups though she is in perfect balance the whole time. She is relaxing her leg down to the stirrups. After the warm up, her foot is about level. She is in perfect balance despite this. I think she is just trying to get the maximum length of her leg to use and it would be counterproductive to raise the stirrup so that her heel would be down.

A reason I ride with heels down is because it makes it very easy to access the hamstrings. I can halt and back my horse from engagement of my hamstrings alone. It is not the hamstrings that are aiding but rather engaging the hamstrings is away to put my seat in the mode that tells my horse to halt or back.

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Re: Position as it relates to effectiveness

Postby demi » Thu Jan 04, 2018 5:10 pm

Tsavo wrote:...

In the skeletal riding videos of Haddad, she says to use the stirrup to raise the toe and not to drop the heel. But of course she already has a perfectly loose leg so that works. That doesn't work on a non-loose leg.

...


There have been some other comments about Haddad on this thread so I was thinking about her riding and watched some more vids of her. Even though she has the “chair seat” :shock: at times, I really enjoy watching her ride. So, Tsavo’s comment about her “loose leg” got me wondering. I think the “looseness” is what I like, but I wouldn’t describe it as “loose”. Loose for me, suggests floppy. After watching and thinking about it, I would describe Haddad as elastic. Very elastic.

Thinking more about it, I wonder if, in part, elasticity is what allows a rider to have less than perfect position but still be highly effective.

So is elasticity in the rider “body genius” or can it be learned. I think it’s both.

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Re: Position as it relates to effectiveness

Postby Tsavo » Fri Jan 05, 2018 1:07 am

Check where Haddad's heels are...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tcB-71_B38

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Re: Position as it relates to effectiveness

Postby demi » Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:19 am

:o :shock: :o

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Re: Position as it relates to effectiveness

Postby Chisamba » Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:35 pm

I do not believe that the most effective position is the same for everyone, but balance, independence and multi tasking are essential. I do not care how perfect your position is, if you cannot multitask, you are in trouble. Lets be honest you have to be able to do one thing with the left hand, another with the right hand, a different thing with the left leg and yet another with the right leg and all have to be able to change within the stride based on the horses responsiveness . if the horse starts leading with the hind in a half pass you have to be able to adjust the weight to the legs. if the horse starts to lose a shoulder in the half pass, or in anything for that matter you have to be able to adjust the hands separately. A rider that is able to adjust legs and hands independently is able to overcome a lot of positional "problems".

People talk a lot about working on athletic skills and such off the horse. I bet if riders spent fifteen minutes each day practicing physical multitasking it would improve their riding so much more. I casually picked up a book by d'Endrody while i was visiting a friend. I did not have a copy of the book. Anyway, i am a quick reader and i read it in the weekend i was there, and i should really get another copy because there were many things in it that i really appreciated.

First off he talks about easiness as an essential, easiness from the horse and easiness of the rider. He said it was NOT to be mistaken for lightness but depended on the complete lack of rigidity of the hand.

He would have his students take pencils, and pare back the pencils so that half an inch of lead was sticking out of the end. then he would have them draw circles without breaking the lead. he would ask them to draw smaller or larger circles, at the same time, left hand going one way and right hand going the other, then both moving together than one had drawing smaller while the other drew larger. only when the rider was able to master this skill without breaking the lead did he allow them the reins. ( now this is from memory of a book i read in one weekend a long time ago, so if someone has the book and rushes to check up on me, i deny being accurate, this is simply the impression i got) I tried it. We actually play at it when we have games day at the barn. its not easy.

Now I suggest, if you sit stiff, have a chair seat, or a forward seat, if your damned heels just wont go down, or if you tend to slice to the back of the saddle or if you are a pommel humper, ( i aspire to sitting on the middle) but can draw circles with each hand separately doing different things without breaking an extended lead, you probably can overcome all your seat deficiencies and really ride with easiness.

juggling also works, sit or kneel on a balance ball and juggle. I found Karate very helpful, put yourself in a horse position, and practice hand Kata.

My opinion is that people do not spend nearly enough time working on easiness, lack of rigidity. so many people come to me having been forced into a "position" or spent their life working on the "correct position" that they have lost every aspect of easiness needed to truly be able to offer a platform of kind training to the horse. can you maintain a steady hand in position regardless of what your body is doing? Can you ride with a plastic cup full of water in one hand and not spill? can you ride on the longe line with a cup of water in each hand and not spill. another game we play on games day. if you cannot you are not honestly offering your horse an easy contact. People talk about how bits are evil and they should be disallowed so riders can ride with bitless bridles and compete. Bits are not evil, hands that are unable to take a contact with ease are equally evil on a bitted or bitless bridle.

So, in my opinion, effectiveness starts with proprioception and balance, what you have to do to have equal proprioception and balance is what you should do. anything you do with your position that interferes with your ability to have proprioception is probably going to detract from your riding

d'endrody quote "Lack of easiness in the hands is the greatest disadvantage of riding, and it causes a high percentage of the difficulties encountered by the rider. Therefore it is of utmost importance to free the hands from the least rigidity."

okay, vent over, sorry
Last edited by Chisamba on Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Position as it relates to effectiveness

Postby Chisamba » Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:51 pm

Now addressing Dresseur particularly, for every position "must: you stated, i can give you a picture of a top successful talented tactful rider who " fails" in the position

please not that these are mostly riders that I admire, who ride well, and have done better than any person on this board has, so lets not start pulling them apart, but they demonstrate my opinion well so i use them.

Sit up straight: Ignas Lausha was worked for excruciating hours on the longe line and never could master a straight back but he was one of the nicest of riders of the Spanish Riding School.

Bent elbows: well in modern times the obvious and easy one on this is Charlotte Dujardin. However her straight arms in my opinion did not interfere with her tact in getting on and riding a large number of unknown green horses in the young horse licensing that she did.

Reiner Kimke is a classic example of a rider who had a long femur and rode with a hollowed back and lower leg behind him, and despite him not being my favorite rider he could surely ride

Now as for big belly, Nuno Oliveira was oft insulted for having a big belly, and he used to quip, i am told, that one does not have to have a big belly to ride well, but having a big belly helps. I used to think it was a cop out, but i have realized that a lot of the collapsing of ribs, and bringing the hands back would be cured if you strapped a stiff "belly" around the mid center of some riders :D

legs and chair seat have been discussed but the too far back leg is even worse imho. a person with a large bum, and i mean a very rounded one will have a harder time than a flat hind person in the positioning of the leg and hip. I guess that means fat bottomed girls should just give up riding better and take up knitting. Hell no. make sure you have an easiness of leg and hand and go for it girl.

So what have i realized, as i have aged and had a number of accidents that limit my phyical ability. a tight hip, a bad knee a bad ankle, an of course now carrying extra weight, i can still ride, and i can still ride well, so long as i work to maintain my easiness, easy proprioception to the hands and ankles.

I think i shall have to go out and find the D' endrody book again to read lmao

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Re: Position as it relates to effectiveness

Postby Dresseur » Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:30 pm

Now addressing Dresseur particularly, for every position "must: you stated, i can give you a picture of a top successful talented tactful rider who " fails" in the position


Chisamba, I hear you and I agree with what you're saying, particularly about the ability to be ambidextrous, as well as proprioception and balance - all things that can be worked on, on AND off the horse.

My meaning behind the above quote, and something that I discussed later are that there ARE riders who are tactful and successful (competition or otherwise) who do NOT have textbook position. I'm not picking those riders apart - they clearly have an ability that shines through even if there are faults that deviate from textbook position, whether this is conformation of the rider, injuries, whatever the reason... For many of us normal riders, this can be enough to cloud communication with the horse. But, not always - for some, the feel clearly outweighs what position the body takes. What I dislike is when there is zero attempt to work on position because of hubris. It's something that can have a direct effect on the horse and in rider's clear aiding and communication.

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Re: Position as it relates to effectiveness

Postby kande50 » Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:42 pm

Chisamba wrote:
d'endrody quote "Lack of easiness in the hands is the greatest disadvantage of riding, and it causes a high percentage of the difficulties encountered by the rider. Therefore it is of utmost importance to free the hands from the least rigidity."

okay, vent over, sorry


Easiness is a good way to describe the way I think riding should be, and if attaining easiness in one's riding means that riders have to stay on the lunge for a long time, or stay at training or first for a long time, then that's IMO, what they need to do.


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