HANDS - (was various training topics)

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musical comedy
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HANDS - (was various training topics)

Postby musical comedy » Wed Apr 11, 2018 12:31 pm

I read the goals threads. Within them are always short discussions on various training issues. When a new goals thread is started, those
discussions about training (like hands) are lost unless someone has a good memory and can easily go back and find them. Granted, I'm a reader that doesn't like threads to be taken off course/subject and that puts me in the minority probably. Anyway, just posting this as
a thought to consider maybe spinning off to a new training topic when an interesting subject is introduced in the goals threads.
Last edited by musical comedy on Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Various Training Topics

Postby piedmontfields » Wed Apr 11, 2018 1:16 pm

I like this suggestion very much!

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Re: Various Training Topics

Postby Chisamba » Wed Apr 11, 2018 10:53 pm

If I may... Regarding hands. I personally feel that a low held hand is unforgiving and inelastic. Yes for a novice rider to learn to be still it's important but an educated rider who can operate from stability needs to be able to respond to the horses mouth, not mimic side reins.

Regarding telescoping neck. I only consider a neck to be following if the poll reaches further from the wither, not simply the nose. If you release and the nose goes out but the neck does not stretch from either to poll, you have not telescoping.

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Re: Various Training Topics

Postby Tsavo » Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:17 pm

Maybe broken line upward has to be earned like spurs.

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Re: Various Training Topics

Postby piedmontfields » Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:49 pm

I like your description of telescoping, Chiasamba. I don't know exactly what Tsavo means by it.

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Re: Various Training Topics

Postby musical comedy » Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:59 pm

Chisamba wrote:If I may... Regarding hands. I personally feel that a low held hand is unforgiving and inelastic. Yes for a novice rider to learn to be still it's important but an educated rider who can operate from stability needs to be able to respond to the horses mouth, not mimic side reins.

Agree. I especially dislike the suggestion the judge gave to SueB about putting (fixing) the hands low by the saddle pad. The answer to steady hands is not in the hands themselves.

I think that those riders that want to ride with the sharp 90 degree angle to their arm mostly requires a horse that is more up and collected in order to keep the straight line from bit to elbow.

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Re: Various Training Topics

Postby Tsavo » Thu Apr 12, 2018 12:55 am

This is what I am saying about the key component needed for collection...

But before we can collect we need to release and relax, and find that telescoping neck gesture that is the soul of collection (while the bent hocks are the heart).

And in order for the horse to release his topline and telescope the neck, to free the back and make him regain his balance, we need to ride the horse on the bit, with relaxation of the poll.


http://sustainabledressage.net/rollkur/ ... rtical.php

Now the Cerratus Cervicis, Longissimus Cervicis and Spinalis Cervicis all kick in to support the neck from the bottom, since the long muscles don't do it from the top. The base of the neck lifts and the neck starts to telescope (1).

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Re: Various Training Topics

Postby Flight » Thu Apr 12, 2018 2:10 am

What about Steffen Peters? He rides with his hands relatively low compared to others?
I wouldnt say his hands are unforgiving?

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Re: Various Training Topics

Postby khall » Thu Apr 12, 2018 2:33 am

Spanish Riding School rides with lower hands https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_QlKdNrzAU

Steffen Peters on Raval, I loved this combo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5n3mU7SjGhI

I do wonder if the high hand thing has something to do with arm length, any thoughts?

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Re: Various Training Topics

Postby demi » Thu Apr 12, 2018 6:50 am

For the most part, at this time, I need to keep my hands low. Almost mimicking sidereins. For various reasons, including loss of confidence, my seat is not as steady as I would like and the low hands helps me to stay more steady all over. Both of my horses resist a “set” hand so I try to have a giving quality within that lower hand contact.

As far as telescoping, I think, again, my thoughts are coming from a very basic, low level of riding. With Rocky, the telescoping response is sometimes a periscope, as it peering up. She is still reaching with her neck, just not forward. And when that happens, as long as the way she takes the bit is gentle, I don’t worry because at least she is trying. I just try to better shape the response with my legs and seat...and this works best for me right now, if my hands are lower, and consisitant in their position.

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Re: Various Training Topics

Postby Tsavo » Thu Apr 12, 2018 12:02 pm

Peters broken line downwards...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iibRkYe_v2Q

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Re: Various Training Topics

Postby Tsavo » Thu Apr 12, 2018 12:08 pm

Hester... sometimes straight, sometimes broken upward...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Jw0ugVpY3A

Hester and Dujardin tend to ride with a straighter line. Charlotte does it think because she rides with her elbows forward.

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Re: Various Training Topics

Postby Sue B » Thu Apr 12, 2018 3:10 pm

Musical Comedy (and anyone else who misunderstood me): Clarification: My hands are NOT FIXED. They are in contact with the pad in front of the saddle. Easier to understand when you see horsie irl; he has massive withers that rise sharply, so I have a perfect contact area right in front of the saddle. Also, to be clear, this is a means of quieting my "busy" hands such that I can do it with no ground help or mirrors. I live 100 miles from nearest regular coaching; my arena is on our farm exposed to winds that can be in excess of 70mph, making mirrors pretty much impossible. So I ride by feel and the occasional video. To my credit, clinician also noted how symmetrical I am, how subtle my faults are and how nice my horse is. :P You may think I suck, but if you met me and my horses, and if you were given the honor to ride one of them, you would quickly see that I am not as incompetent as you presuppose me to be. 8-)

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Re: Various Training Topics

Postby piedmontfields » Thu Apr 12, 2018 4:02 pm

Sue B wrote:They are in contact with the pad in front of the saddle. Easier to understand when you see horsie irl; he has massive withers that rise sharply, so I have a perfect contact area right in front of the saddle. Also, to be clear, this is a means of quieting my "busy" hands such that I can do it with no ground help or mirrors.


I use this technique, too, as a way of quieting my hands. When I have my hands in the right "box" in front of the saddle, I can touch the pad with my pinky fingers. I know that if I can't reach the pad, I have left the zone! :lol:

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Re: Various Training Topics

Postby Chisamba » Thu Apr 12, 2018 4:19 pm

musical comedy wrote:
Chisamba wrote:If I may... Regarding hands. I personally feel that a low held hand is unforgiving and inelastic. Yes for a novice rider to learn to be still it's important but an educated rider who can operate from stability needs to be able to respond to the horses mouth, not mimic side reins.

Agree. I especially dislike the suggestion the judge gave to SueB about putting (fixing) the hands low by the saddle pad. The answer to steady hands is not in the hands themselves.

I think that those riders that want to ride with the sharp 90 degree angle to their arm mostly requires a horse that is more up and collected in order to keep the straight line from bit to elbow.


Agreed.

I believe that most people accept straight line from elbow to bit as ideal.

By definition then, a low hand would be below the straight line

A high hand would be above the straight line.

In addition a hand may be forward or backward in any of these positions.

The persons claiming the Peter's or the SRS ride with low hands are mostly incorrect. They follow the principle of straight line anyone can momentarily deviate.

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Re: Various Training Topics

Postby musical comedy » Thu Apr 12, 2018 4:29 pm

Sue B wrote:Musical Comedy (and anyone else who misunderstood me): Clarification: My hands are NOT FIXED. They are in contact with the pad in front of the saddle. Easier to understand when you see horsie irl; he has massive withers that rise sharply, so I have a perfect contact area right in front of the saddle. Also, to be clear, this is a means of quieting my "busy" hands such that I can do it with no ground help or mirrors. I live 100 miles from nearest regular coaching; my arena is on our farm exposed to winds that can be in excess of 70mph, making mirrors pretty much impossible. So I ride by feel and the occasional video. To my credit, clinician also noted how symmetrical I am, how subtle my faults are and how nice my horse is. :P You may think I suck, but if you met me and my horses, and if you were given the honor to ride one of them, you would quickly see that I am not as incompetent as you presuppose me to be. 8-)
Are you talking to me? Maybe your hands are not 'fixed', but if they are in contact with the pad, then they are behind the withers, so imo too far back. Whatever, do what you want. By the way, I have seen your videos of showing so I know how you ride.

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Re: Various Training Topics

Postby Chisamba » Thu Apr 12, 2018 4:49 pm

The hand should allow bascule, stretch, collection, sympathy self carriage and two way communication. Very few horses are conformed in a way that thus can be done within small finger reach of the saddle pad.

I would like to point out that Musical Comedy did not criticize SueB.. The criticism was for the advice she got, a specific technique. It was a suggestion that this technique not be added to accepted riding norm

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Re: Various Training Topics

Postby musical comedy » Thu Apr 12, 2018 4:53 pm

Chisamba wrote:I would like to point out that Musical Comedy did not criticize SueB.. The criticism was for the advice she got, a specific technique. It was a suggestion that this technique not be added to accepted riding norm
Thanks. One can't criticize anything on these forums. Everyone just wants positive stroking and encouragement or gets defensive. Actually, not being able to take criticism is yet another reason for slowing a rider's progression.

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Re: Various Training Topics

Postby khall » Thu Apr 12, 2018 6:26 pm

chisamba I agree Peters does not ride with low hand and broken line downward, IMO his and AB's and for the most part the SRS are the ideal arm position.

SueB I know exactly what you are saying about riding with hands in front sometimes grabbing a bit of mane I sometimes will hook a pinky onto my Oh Shit strap. I do like bridging the reins as well. I do feel the too high of hands is a trap where the rider gets to using the hands upward it absolutely will close a horse up in the throat latch.

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Re: Various Training Topics

Postby kande50 » Thu Apr 12, 2018 6:44 pm

I think being able to touch some point in front of the saddle without needing to move the hands much is a good teaching tool to try to get a rider to use less hand and more seat/leg, because when I'm trying to get my horse to do something that I can't get with seat/leg I do sometimes try to get it by using the bit.

And basically, when a rider takes his hands out of "the box" to try to use the bit to pressure his horse more, then he's usually resorting to using his horse's tender mouth to try to get too much too soon, because if he can't get it with seat/leg then his horse probably isn't well enough prepared to be able to do it.

OTOH, I admit that my hands often come out of the box without putting more pressure on the bit, just because I don't want to interrupt the flow by shortening my reins right when things are moving in the direction I want them to go.

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Re: Various Training Topics

Postby Chisamba » Thu Apr 12, 2018 7:10 pm

musical comedy wrote:
Chisamba wrote:I would like to point out that Musical Comedy did not criticize SueB.. The criticism was for the advice she got, a specific technique. It was a suggestion that this technique not be added to accepted riding norm
Thanks. One can't criticize anything on these forums. Everyone just wants positive stroking and encouragement or gets defensive. Actually, not being able to take criticism is yet another reason for slowing a rider's progression.


well we have disagreed heartily before but i still read when you write :)

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Re: Various Training Topics

Postby khall » Thu Apr 12, 2018 9:10 pm

Constructive criticism is one thing, just being nasty is totally not appropriate and I have to say MC you can verge on being nasty at times. I do have strong opinions based on my long years of riding and working around horses and animals in general (I also like training dogs) and I am not shy about setting them out there. I do try to not be offensive though when I put them out there. Some do get offended though, that is ok I do think we all I think for the most part are pulling for each other though.

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Re: Various Training Topics

Postby Flight » Thu Apr 12, 2018 9:23 pm

I think it's hard trying to explain things through a forum like this, so it can take a few posts to sort it out. With my big horse I touch my pinkies to the top of my saddle blanket to make sure my hands aren't bouncing around too much, especially in rising trot to make sure I'm opening/closing my elbows. That doesn't fix my hands (I don't think!!) but helps that proprioception of keeping them more still.
I struggle more with wanting to have a backward hand, when my horse hollows etc I want to pull back. It's annoying and a hard habit to break.

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Re: Various Training Topics

Postby Sue B » Thu Apr 12, 2018 11:40 pm

No, MC, having my hands touching the pad does not put them behind the withers, and for the THIRD time, my hands ARE NOT FIXED. You are free to disagree but when you make assumptions, I will clarify. Carry on.

Thanks. One can't criticize anything on these forums. Everyone just wants positive stroking and encouragement or gets defensive. Actually, not being able to take criticism is yet another reason for slowing a rider's progression.

This quote is why some people take offense at what you write. I never asked for strokes, I simply shared a technique that helps me.

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Re: Various Training Topics

Postby musical comedy » Fri Apr 13, 2018 12:11 am

Sue B wrote: This quote is why some people take offense at what you write.
Anyone offended by my posts can easily ignore them by putting my user name on your FOE list. You do this in your control panel.

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Re: Various Training Topics

Postby piedmontfields » Fri Apr 13, 2018 2:05 am

Flight wrote:I think it's hard trying to explain things through a forum like this, so it can take a few posts to sort it out. With my big horse I touch my pinkies to the top of my saddle blanket to make sure my hands aren't bouncing around too much, especially in rising trot to make sure I'm opening/closing my elbows. That doesn't fix my hands (I don't think!!) but helps that proprioception of keeping them more still.


I agree with the communication point and the proprioception point! I noticed that I used the technique tonight as a simple check in (yes, hands are in zone and quite, therefore fair to apply serious leg and then whip if needed).

Glad Norsey is feeling okay under saddle at last posting. Hope his discomfort is resolved for sure! He such a lovely looking horse.

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Re: Various Training Topics

Postby StraightForward » Fri Apr 13, 2018 3:29 am

On the topic of hands, rider conformation plays a big part, IMO. I have a short torso and long arms, and there is no way I could touch my saddle pad and have a proper bit to elbow alignment. On a more trained, collected horse, it would probably be closer, but still not touching without having puppy-dog paws and/or upper arm BTV. So what works for one horse/rider pair might be totally wrong for another. Of course we each post from the POV of our own experiences, and like Flight says, it can take some time and patience to tease out the meaning and differences.
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Re: Various Training Topics

Postby Tsavo » Fri Apr 13, 2018 3:40 am

In thinking about this issue of elite riders with a broken line up, I think a possible reason is to be able to give forward very easily and at any instant by lowering the hand a bit. Maybe it is just quicker or more accurate or something to lower the hand a bit to give than to bring the elbow forward a tiny bit.

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Re: Various Training Topics

Postby StraightForward » Fri Apr 13, 2018 3:54 am

It also seems like handling the double reins could contribute. Having the knuckles perpendicular would make it easier/more effective to manage both the snaffle and curb, I would think.
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Re: Various Training Topics

Postby Flight » Fri Apr 13, 2018 4:49 am

piedmontfields wrote:Glad Norsey is feeling okay under saddle at last posting. Hope his discomfort is resolved for sure! He such a lovely looking horse.


Thanks!! He still seems ok. I'll have to put up some vid, he's like a tank now, I think his head has grown even bigger.

Tsavo, do those riders have their hands in the same position on young horses who might not be as collected? I'll have to go looking for some vid. Although their young horses are able to collect better than my 'advanced' horse :lol:

Chisamba wrote:Regarding telescoping neck. I only consider a neck to be following if the poll reaches further from the wither, not simply the nose. If you release and the nose goes out but the neck does not stretch from either to poll, you have not telescoping.


I really notice if I've shortened the neck when my horse gets wrinkles at the base of his neck/shoulder and if I let his nose out but the wrinkles stay I know there is definitely no telescoping!

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Re: Various Training Topics

Postby Tsavo » Fri Apr 13, 2018 11:46 am

Flight wrote:Tsavo, do those riders have their hands in the same position on young horses who might not be as collected? I'll have to go looking for some vid. Although their young horses are able to collect better than my 'advanced' horse :lol:


That's an interesting question and maybe you are right about that although not in the case of Werth who is riding a young horse in a snaffle with an extremely broken line upward.

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Re: Various Training Topics

Postby Dresseur » Fri Apr 13, 2018 1:15 pm

Hands! So, I'll preface this by saying still shots capture moments in time - and a good rider will deviate from ideal for split seconds to make a correction. Stills will capture this, where as a video you may miss it.

I adhere to the point that yes, a straight line from elbow to bit is ideal - and, the goal (rider conformation aside) should be to return to ideal after making a correction. Ideally, corrections will happen in the seat and legs - the the hands as an extension of the shoulders can and do move as part of a hh. On a GP or I-1 horse, this move will be minimal, on a young horse, there may be more of a range.
To that point, I will say that 9 times out of 10, if you see that broken line upwards, the elbows are still at 90 - which maintain the connection to the back and shoulders.

The forward - this HAS to happen IMO. Again, this is what I was missing in my riding, but you can't lose your shoulders. Before, when I would give forward, my shoulders would soften, and the whole of the horse's balance would fall to the forehand, rather than the horse maintaining balance and telescoping the neck. But, the forward is a tiny, tiny movement unless asking for the horse to go F/D/O. So basically, you are doing a test of uberstreichen with one or both hands to test balance. If you give the hands down after the hh, the horse should seek the rein and that is what creates the telescoping gesture. But again, these are tiny movements. Unless of course, the horse is bearing down or really compressed, then I will bring my whole arm up (elbows at 90) to bump the horse up and then immediately release to uncurl the horse or break up the leaning.

Someone mentioned the SRS and Phillipe Karl. Karl's whole school of legerete is based on doing the demi arrets and releasing - bringing the hand up high and often wide to lift the base of the neck. A quick search of him will show him with a broken line at times.
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For the SRS - Podhasky
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All I'm saying is that in order to teach a horse, you have to move. You can have your hand in a number of different places, and if you are releasing and doing hh properly, your horse will be in better balance for it. I also agree with Chisamba that higher hands that act on the lips, not the bars are IMO better than low fixed hands with open elbows.

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Re: Various Training Topics

Postby tlkidding » Fri Apr 13, 2018 2:32 pm

Sue B wrote:Also, to be clear, this is a means of quieting my "busy" hands such that I can do it with no ground help or mirrors. I live 100 miles from nearest regular coaching; my arena is on our farm exposed to winds that can be in excess of 70mph, making mirrors pretty much impossible. So I ride by feel and the occasional video.


My trainer had me warm up for several weeks using a driving rein position/hold to stop my rouge left hand and it helped a ton. You can also bridge the reins, hold a whip across your hands, hold the bucking strap with one or both hands, or cross your reins over the neck as techniques to keep hands still and/or recognize when your hands are doing something they shouldn't. I have heldthe bucking strap working pirouettes to the right when I kept pulling the right rein to get more "bend."

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Re: Various Training Topics

Postby Sue B » Fri Apr 13, 2018 2:53 pm

Great ideas tk, thank you

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Re: Various Training Topics

Postby Tuddy » Fri Apr 13, 2018 4:12 pm

I have heavy hands and when I was riding Yonka just recently, I found he was "cheating my corners" as I called it. I would try to push him over to the rail with my hands instead of using my leg. I found my inside hand would cross over his mane and, obviously, it didn't work out well for me. I found that if I stopped that inside hand by just touching the top of the mane, it would remind me to use my leg more and open my outside rein up to have him move into it the open space it created. It wasn't pretty, but it got better. Does that make sense? I can tell you, I was far from being aware of where my elbows were. I just wanted him to move over.

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Re: Various Training Topics

Postby Tsavo » Sat Apr 14, 2018 12:45 am

Dresseur wrote:The forward - this HAS to happen IMO. Again, this is what I was missing in my riding, but you can't lose your shoulders. Before, when I would give forward, my shoulders would soften, and the whole of the horse's balance would fall to the forehand, rather than the horse maintaining balance and telescoping the neck.


You know what REALLY helps with this issue? The arm exercises where I am deliberately NOT letting my scapula rise despite holding 50 pounds on a pulley trying to pull my scapula up. It is not just the strength I have gained in being about to let my arm go up whilst not allowing my shoulder bade to come it. It is also, and critically I might add, the practice of having resistance/weight and simply teaching yourself how to let the arm come up while the shoulder blade stays pasted back and down. it's a trick that simply needs to be practiced. Not rocket surgery. You can find it in one (if you have the muscle strength to hold the shoulder blade back and down).

Someone mentioned the SRS and Phillipe Karl. Karl's whole school of legerete is based on doing the demi arrets and releasing - bringing the hand up high and often wide to lift the base of the neck. A quick search of him will show him with a broken line at times.


Are those photos specifically demi arrets or are they just of those folks riding around? Either they are constantly doing demi arrets or they are riding about like that. I suggest the latter.

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Re: Various Training Topics

Postby kande50 » Sat Apr 14, 2018 12:12 pm

Dresseur wrote:Someone mentioned the SRS and Phillipe Karl. Karl's whole school of legerete is based on doing the demi arrets and releasing - bringing the hand up high and often wide to lift the base of the neck. A quick search of him will show him with a broken line at times.


I had to go to a clinic to figure this out, but the behavior PK is looking for in response to the high wide hand is telescoping, which of course is connected to lifting the base of the neck. So they teach that response from the ground first, then mounted at the halt, then at walk, and then increase the difficulty as the horse can keep his balance well enough to stay out to the bit.

In the clinic I audited I saw mostly green horses who were proficient at telescoping in their in-hand and mounted walk lessons, but were just learning to keep their balance at trot US. So what I saw was a lot of hand lifting in the corners, which was where the horses were most likely to lose their balance and lift their necks, lose contact, and hollow.

I also agree with Chisamba that higher hands that act on the lips, not the bars are IMO better than low fixed hands with open elbows.


I'd need to see some real evidence to support this before I'd be ready to buy into it, because what I think I'm seeing is that lifting the bit is more aversive for the horse than the same amount of pressure on the tongue.

The reason for that may simply be that as long as the pressure is light enough the horse can keep the bit up off his bars with his tongue, but has no way to protect the corners of his mouth?

So when the pressure is light horses may actually be more sensitive in the corners of their mouths, but if it's stronger then the bit acts on the bars because the tongue is unable to protect them, and it may then become more aversive? Course that's just conjecture based upon observations, and is all probably irrelevant, because clear and consistent cues/aids are likely much more important than any minor differences in how aversive they are.

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Re: Various Training Topics

Postby Dresseur » Sat Apr 14, 2018 12:29 pm

Tsavo, obviously it's impossible to tell what is going on in those pictures in that moment, but I personally think that they are constantly doing hh and arrets, the higher trained the horse, the smaller the range of motion is. I don't think that any of the top riders past or present have still hands, or ride with permanently raised hands. There are other pics of them on the same horses with different hand positions, and while maybe on some horses, the hand is consistently held higher than others, I still think that by and large, it's a correction and then returning to closer to "ideal".

Kande, yes, I should have been more clear - the release for PK is to ask the neck to telescope out, while keeping the base of the neck up. I think that lifting the bit changes the bearing of the horse, which can make it be a bit more abrupt looking - but IMO, while soft tissue is incredibly sensitive, I personally think that steel bit on unyielding bone is more painful and harmful long-term than a steel bit acting on soft tissue that can yield quite a bit. But I agree, the most important thing is to be clear, consistent and fair in your cues/aids.

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Re: Various Training Topics

Postby Tsavo » Sat Apr 14, 2018 1:04 pm

You may be right that they are doing DAs/HHs nearly constantly but there are certain schools of riding who claim that the higher you go in training, the more the horse is in self carriage and therefore DA/HH is not needed. Of course you never see these people doing much but walk/halt.

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Re: Various Training Topics

Postby khall » Sat Apr 14, 2018 1:41 pm

I am going to have to buy this book:
http://www.horseandriderbooks.com/product/DRSE.html

Breathing is so important in riding. That was one of Mark's focuses (among many) for riders. Correct breathing lowers the rider's center of gravity. Mark practiced Tai Chi for breathing and to be centered.

My point and I think the point SueB is making as well, is if we tend to ride with too high of hand as normal, that causes issues in the rider's position and in the horse. Riders will use the hands first rather than seat/leg first. Too high of hand on a regular basis will close the horse's throat latch and tend to roll him up in the front. Now if the horse is collected in such a way that the head and neck is raised so that the straight line from elbow to bit is still there even with the rider's high hand, that is different. Also a momentary aret to ask the horse to come up then returning to neutral is also acceptable riding. No one here I do not think would ever say the hands have to stay still in order to ride correctly, but they should always return to neutral and not stay continually raised or lowered out of the classic seat position. It's true for jumping as well. A great release is where the line is straight from elbow to bit. Why George Morris is not so happy with the stylized exaggerated crest release so often seen today.

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Re: Various Training Topics

Postby Tsavo » Sat Apr 14, 2018 2:18 pm

Wanless talks about breathing also. My interpretation of all this breathing stuff is mainly to show people how to engage the lower abdominals and to help relax the shoulder blades back and down. Also so as to not interfere in timing as the horse senses this.

For me personally, having a horse who wanted to invert all the time, I found/built my lower abdominals in experimenting with how to raise his withers and lower his neck without hand. This gave me rock hard lower abs without ever hitting a gym. Now that I work out, I have improved these muscles even more but I would not say they are more effective than what I built them to just with riding the inversions out. That's how much muscle I was using to do that.

WRT relaxing the shoulder blades back and down with breathing, yes that works. But in my case they don't stay own. What keeps them down is a few years of building muscle to pull them down and back. Maybe my conformation doesn't allow me to just relax and have my shoulder blades back and down, I don't know. I do know I use muscle to pull them back and down while riding. Not a lot but some.

I misinterpreted the need for working out to ride most of my life. I thought just being generally fit should be enough given expert elderly riders can't be in the same shape I was. But what it seems to be is not general fitness but VERY VERY targeted abilities (open hip angle, shoulder blades back and down, and core) that some people naturally have more of than others. One of my GP instructors did not work out in the gym but easily had all three of these things. Because I was missing two of these things, I have to work out. It is that simple.

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Re: Various Training Topics

Postby Abby Kogler » Sun Apr 15, 2018 9:34 pm

Tsavo wrote:You may be right that they are doing DAs/HHs nearly constantly but there are certain schools of riding who claim that the higher you go in training, the more the horse is in self carriage and therefore DA/HH is not needed. Of course you never see these people doing much but walk/halt.


PK defines his approach and the demi arret.

http://www.philippe-karl.com/philippe-k ... on-the-bit

Here is the USDF definition of the half halt:

Definition:

“The half-halt is the hardly visible,[i][i][i][i] almost simultaneous, coordinated action of the seat, the legs and the hand of the rider, with the object of increasing the attention and balance of the horse before the execution of several movements or transitions between gaits or paces. In shifting slightly more weight onto the horse’s quarters, the engagement of the hind legs and the balance on the haunches are facilitated for the benefit of the lightness of the forehand and the horse’s balance as a whole.” [USEF Rule Book DR108]
“The half-halt is a call to attention to prepare the horse for the next command of his rider.” [Classical Training of Horse and Rider, p 40]
“The half-halt is a combination of your driving aids plus your bending aids plus a rein of opposition sustained for a period of about three seconds.” [Dressage Insights: Excerpts from Experts, p 35]

A demi arret is not a half halt even though that is the literal translation. It is not used in the same way or context and it is not connected to any driving/seat/leg aid.

Here is a video of Phillippe Karl. Legerete is more than walk halt.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzCkUysxXE0



I just had my first clinic as an accepted rider in the CA Trainer course. The clinic I did in October was my audition clinic. I am still having problems with my foot and now my knee but I took Lover and Riwaldo and rode both horses all four days. Lover and I jumped but Riwaldo was pretty silly so discretion was the greater part of valor with him. It was great. Bertrand is an excellent and patient instructor with a great eye. This is not easy work even for someone like me who has ridden all of her life; the timing and feel is exacting. It was so good to take two horses and go over and over the flexions and the in hand work and to ride them both with Bertrand talking me through all the concepts.

I have been meaning to start a thread about the last clinic so I will when I have time.

Suffice to say the hand can be above the line from bit to elbow. I do agree that the corners of the mouth and the flexions of the jaw are key, physiologically, to the development of self carriage. The hands below, low, to me are such a false 'give'...as you guys who know me know I don't use sidereins or draw reins though of course I did, like everybody else. The Legerete link discusses the issue.

I find/found that if their anatomy allowed it teaching riders to keep their little fingers touching the mane or grab strap was very helpful in allowing them to feel how the hip comes through the elbow and the arm hangs in a relaxed way. Its a good tip SueB and very useful to many riders at various stages.

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Re: Various Training Topics

Postby calvin » Sun Apr 15, 2018 11:24 pm

Observation, but not sure if it is important. The line from bit / hand / shoulder in the photos is straight. Very straight.

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Re: Various Training Topics

Postby Tsavo » Sun Apr 15, 2018 11:30 pm

calvin wrote:Observation, but not sure if it is important. The line from bit / hand / shoulder in the photos is straight. Very straight.


???
We are discussing a line from bit to elbow.

Bit - hand - shoulder that you mention would require a straight elbow. Dujardin is almost there LOL but none of the pictures posted come close to that.

Which pictures are you talking about??

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Re: Various Training Topics

Postby calvin » Sun Apr 15, 2018 11:38 pm

The ones posted.

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Re: Various Training Topics

Postby Tsavo » Sun Apr 15, 2018 11:40 pm

Pass

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Re: Various Training Topics

Postby StraightForward » Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:22 am

I think Calvin is saying, if you continue to make a virtual line from the rein backward, it tends to intersect the rider's shoulder. It's not a solid physical line like the bit/hand/elbow line. I think for most rider conformation, that would happen as long as the upper arm is kept at the sides and the hands are raised.
Keep calm and canter on.

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Re: Various Training Topics

Postby Chisamba » Mon Apr 16, 2018 1:42 pm

Sue B wrote:No, MC, having my hands touching the pad does not put them behind the withers,


just because i really want to understand, your saddle pad covers the withers?

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Re: Various Training Topics

Postby Dresseur » Mon Apr 16, 2018 2:21 pm

StraightForward wrote:I think Calvin is saying, if you continue to make a virtual line from the rein backward, it tends to intersect the rider's shoulder. It's not a solid physical line like the bit/hand/elbow line. I think for most rider conformation, that would happen as long as the upper arm is kept at the sides and the hands are raised.


Yes, that's how I interpreted. And, I think that's of note... the reins are connected to the back through the shoulders, not the elbows.

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Re: Various Training Topics

Postby kande50 » Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:05 pm

calvin wrote:Observation, but not sure if it is important. The line from bit / hand / shoulder in the photos is straight. Very straight.


Excellent observation, Calvin.


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