Clinic this weekend....

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HafDressage
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Clinic this weekend....

Postby HafDressage » Mon Apr 23, 2018 1:12 am

Sooooo this weekend I took a lesson from Jeff Moore, who traveled here from Cali, and I have to say I walked away with super duper mixed feelings. On the one hand, he said some things I agree with and had a couple of good tips, on the other hand it seemed to come with a lot of "bullshit and posturing" for lack of better terms. I also felt like he alluded to a lot of things, but then didn't explain them and it felt very much like "oh if you sign up for my 16-week course for the low low price of XX, then I will teach you all of these dressage secrets and this random vocabulary I made up, which is totally better from the bullshit all other instructors tell you." For example, he made some comment about disagreeing with inside leg/outside rein as most teach, which I'm not necessary against questioning, but then offered no explanation and alluded to future lessons wit him.

So there were lots of instances like that and I walked away feeling like I really didn't get a lesson or much of a lesson. Perhaps had I done more lessons I would have walked away with more. Also, he had a very strong contingent of older "chair-seated" lady riders who seemed to think he was the second coming of the messiah and that always irks me a little. Now, I'm not saying I wouldn't clinic with him again, but just that I walked away with super mixed feelings.


So, I'm curious if any of you guys have done lessons clinics with him and your thoughts afterwards. Anyone?

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Re: Clinic this weekend....

Postby piedmontfields » Mon Apr 23, 2018 1:18 pm

I've never heard of him. HafDressage, given your experience + success and apparent wisdom (on this board), I'd trust your assessment! :D I do think a great proof of trainer skill is the horses and riders they produce.

This summary jives with your description. I"m sure some could find it useful.
http://www.midsouthhorsereview.com/news.php?id=5446
Last edited by piedmontfields on Mon Apr 23, 2018 1:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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musical comedy
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Re: Clinic this weekend....

Postby musical comedy » Mon Apr 23, 2018 1:19 pm

I haven't heard J. Ashton Moore's name mentioned for a long time. I've never seen him teach and don't know anyone who has ridden with him. I actually know nothing about him. So, I googled. :lol: I found a couple older videos on youtube of him giving a lesson. My almost immediate impression was negative because what he was working on was not what I think should have been being addressed. Both horses were crawling along, not infront of the leg and he was asking for exercises where more forward was necessary. I also read some clinic notes a couple people wrote. It seems his focus is on biomechanics, which is a good thing. However, if not riding with him regularly, the first couple lessons would probably be to point out asymmetry in the horse and rider before moving on to other things. Those things can't be fixed in one ride.

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Re: Clinic this weekend....

Postby Tsavo » Mon Apr 23, 2018 1:57 pm

There are definitely people who claim they don't ride inside leg to outside hand including at least one GP trainer. Coupled with the crawling along comment suggests this guy is probably influenced by some French school.

I don't show and while Werth is not among my favorite riders, she is top of the heap and was said to have repeated the phrase "inside leg to outside hand" thousands of times in a recent clinc. This is consistent with riding in position which is specifically not what some French schools advocate. I would not have a hope in hell of riding if I was not doing inside leg to outside hand. It underlines everything for me.

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musical comedy
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Re: Clinic this weekend....

Postby musical comedy » Mon Apr 23, 2018 2:10 pm

Tsavo wrote:There are definitely people who claim they don't ride inside leg to outside hand including at least one GP trainer. Coupled with the crawling along comment suggests this guy is probably influenced by some French school.

I don't show and while Werth is not among my favorite riders, she is top of the heap and was said to have repeated the phrase "inside leg to outside hand" thousands of times in a recent clinc. This is consistent with riding in position which is specifically not what some French schools advocate. I would not have a hope in hell of riding if I was not doing inside leg to outside hand. It underlines everything for me.
I often used outside hand to inside leg.

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Re: Clinic this weekend....

Postby Tsavo » Mon Apr 23, 2018 2:12 pm

I sometimes use counterbend.

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musical comedy
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Re: Clinic this weekend....

Postby musical comedy » Mon Apr 23, 2018 2:18 pm

Tsavo wrote:I sometimes use counterbend.
Me too. When the hollow/soft side is the inside, I can't think too much about inside leg to outside rein. I have to think about bringing the outside shoulder over.

Check out this J. Moore clinic clip. He's trying to have the rider leg yield over to the outside rein, but the horse is not on the bit and not forward enough. Rider doesn't have a clue out use of the outside rein.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aalsQUFYTqk

Tsavo
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Re: Clinic this weekend....

Postby Tsavo » Mon Apr 23, 2018 2:27 pm

Did I hear that comment correctly about how she won't be able to do something but it doesn't hurt to try???

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Re: Clinic this weekend....

Postby Tuddy » Mon Apr 23, 2018 3:03 pm

HafDressage wrote:I also felt like he alluded to a lot of things, but then didn't explain them .....

.... who seemed to think he was the second coming of the messiah and that always irks me a little.


Sounds like my lesson (which I walked out of) with Eddo Hoekstra, and the other participants thought I was a nut case for doing so, because they worshipped him.

Tsavo wrote:Coupled with the crawling along comment suggests this guy is probably influenced by some French school.


I happen to love the French classical stuff. Every French based trainer I have worked with have always been able to answer my questions and be open to discussion and theory. The non-French trainers I've had the chance to work with, are 85% of the time "just do as I say because it's been that way for years" with no ability to back up the reasoning why they've "done it for years", and quick to move to something else.

Sorry to hear your clinic left you with mixed feelings.

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Re: Clinic this weekend....

Postby Ryeissa » Wed Apr 25, 2018 2:54 pm

HafDressage wrote:Sooooo this weekend I took a lesson from Jeff Moore, who traveled here from Cali,

So, I'm curious if any of you guys have done lessons clinics with him and your thoughts afterwards. Anyone?



Nope, never seen him in person. Perhaps audit another before riding again? I'm sorry you had a mixed experience.

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Re: Clinic this weekend....

Postby Dresseur » Thu Apr 26, 2018 1:46 pm

I'm sorry that you had mixed feelings about the clinic. I'm not familiar with him, but watching the video that MC posted brings up a pet peeve of mine. How the heck do people teach effectively from the sidelines??? Sure you can see and comment on some stuff, and maybe it's just me, but I'm used to people being fully involved - which means walking over to the long sides to see the angle of lateral work, or going to the inside or outside of a circle to see what's happening to the aids. I (maybe wrongly) have the general feeling that people that just sit and postulate from the sidelines aren't 1. really involved and 2. just want to hear themselves talk. Please note: this doesn't apply to someone who is physically unable to walk around etc.

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Re: Clinic this weekend....

Postby demi » Thu Apr 26, 2018 2:07 pm

HafDressage, I used to live 30 minutes from J.M. I took several lessons with him and, without getting into details, I can say that I fully understand your mixed feelings. One thing I will say, is that I rode three different horses that he had trained and ALL were a delight to ride. All were light and responsive to the aides, including one very large, big boned, big footed mare.

HafDressage
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Re: Clinic this weekend....

Postby HafDressage » Thu May 03, 2018 5:42 pm

Thank you to many of you for the supportive words! Sorry I haven't been able to respond. It's been a BUSY week. We actually went to a show! More on that in another thread.

So, after a week and half of reflection, I still have really mixed feelings. I do think he made some good helpful points, but I think there was also a lot of wasted time in the lesson and in general I just don't think he's that great at delivering his instruction. SO, some good and some bad. On the one hand, I'm sort of like you've been teaching this for at least 40 years figure out how to deliver your message in a sensical, logical, and non-patronizing way. On the other hand, there is some good information if you don't mind the other bs.

demi wrote:HafDressage, I used to live 30 minutes from J.M. I took several lessons with him and, without getting into details, I can say that I fully understand your mixed feelings. One thing I will say, is that I rode three different horses that he had trained and ALL were a delight to ride. All were light and responsive to the aides, including one very large, big boned, big footed mare.


Demi - I'm glad to hear someone else walked away with a similar impression. I wasn't quite sure if it was just me or if that was just sort of how it comes with him.

Again - thanks everyone for the supportive words and I'll update you guys on the next clinician I try. :)

HafDressage
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Re: Clinic this weekend....

Postby HafDressage » Thu May 03, 2018 5:44 pm

Dresseur wrote:I'm sorry that you had mixed feelings about the clinic. I'm not familiar with him, but watching the video that MC posted brings up a pet peeve of mine. How the heck do people teach effectively from the sidelines??? Sure you can see and comment on some stuff, and maybe it's just me, but I'm used to people being fully involved - which means walking over to the long sides to see the angle of lateral work, or going to the inside or outside of a circle to see what's happening to the aids. I (maybe wrongly) have the general feeling that people that just sit and postulate from the sidelines aren't 1. really involved and 2. just want to hear themselves talk. Please note: this doesn't apply to someone who is physically unable to walk around etc.


Oh before I forget. Dresseur- totally agree! He sat in a judges booth outside the ring the entire lesson and it really bothered me. I'm like get up and teach this lesson. SO, that also surprised me.

I might do more lessons with him at some point, but in general, I'm still on the hunt for the perfect clinician for me and my alterna-horse.


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