Uses of rising vs sitting trot for encouraging swing

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Uses of rising vs sitting trot for encouraging swing

Postby piedmontfields » Wed Apr 25, 2018 4:12 pm

This is really just a musing rather than a fully formed question, but I know many of you will have helpful thoughts and experiences to share.

I have been taught (and have experienced) that we rise the trot to encourage the horse's back to move and swing in the gait. Rising gives freedom to the back.

I have also been taught (and have experienced) that sitting the trot can be a way to encourage movement in the horse's back, by using your sitbones to accentuate the appropriate swing of the trot. This does assume an ability to sit the trot effectively and in a way that encourages greater movement by the horse.

I find that I use both techniques, depending on the horse and the day. I do find the second technique more "direct" but it also requires me to be a better/more tactful rider, so if my body is feeling tight or wobbly, I avoid this method.

What is your experience and thinking on this?

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Re: Uses of rising vs sitting trot for encouraging swing

Postby musical comedy » Wed Apr 25, 2018 4:43 pm

I am a person that has difficulty doing a good rising trot. It has to do with my conformation (and probably other things) that I won't get into here.

With a just started horse...no...I don't sit. Once they understand the outside rein and have rhythm and regularity, I start sitting after the trot warmup. I might do a rising trot stretch during my ride.

I understand pros can do all sorts of things (please, don't point to this/that person does rising trot), but it is just common sense to me that you can get a better connection sitting. Posting, each time your seat leaves the tack, that's a loss of connection imo.

I've been sitting on all my horses for years through all of the trot work after warmup, and have not had any soundness issues because of it. There is a reson that sitting trot is required in dressage tests. It used to be that it was required as early as Training Level test 3 until they dumbed the tests down because riders couldn't sit.

Edited to add: I think the reason I can't balance a horse well rising is that I cannot rise perpendicular. That is because my calf is very short
compared to my thigh and I also have lordosis.

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Re: Uses of rising vs sitting trot for encouraging swing

Postby piedmontfields » Wed Apr 25, 2018 6:18 pm

BTW, it was watching Dresseur's recent trot video that made me think of raising this topic. To me, she is clearly using her seat effectively to help shape the balance and power in her horse's trot.

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Re: Uses of rising vs sitting trot for encouraging swing

Postby Dresseur » Wed Apr 25, 2018 6:37 pm

IMO this is an "it all depends" situation. It depends on the horse, it depends on the rider, it depends on what you are feeling. I'll try to break down my decision tree.

I will preface all of this by saying, if you are not a balanced rider that can use their aids with a modicum of independence, I would say post and keep learning to sit. I PERSONALLY feel that I get a better connection by sitting. If the horse is young, I sit a bit more on my thighs so that I am not sitting too heavily and pressing the back down. But, I also primarily ride horses that are prepared to handle the rider's weight through a progressive longing program.

If the horse is very weak, has major rhythm issues, or is feeling very tight in the back, or has an issue with going forward, I will do a rising trot to encourage the horse forward. You can get more leverage by "throwing" your hips and upper body forward (in one piece), and it's the first time you start to teach a horse to follow your back. Post more emphatically and the horse should go. Slow your post and the horse should come back to you.

That being said, I do sit as soon as possibly - I find that I can feel the texture of what the horse is doing in the back much better. Again, if the horse is on the weaker side - I sit a bit more on my thigh rather than dropping my full weight down. I use my seat in a trampoline manner and through firming or softening my back/core. People tend to get scared about the trampoline metaphor- but think about it - if you bounce and keep a bit of rigidity in your body - you can go higher and higher. If you suddenly become loose like a noodle - you can stop the bounce immediately. So, it's more my legs backing up what my seat and back are asking for than anything that I am doing with my seat bones - I definitely do not swing independently or side to side - I remain perpendicular to the back of the horse and my seat bones act together. If you time the drive and the hh, you can absolutely shape the horse in a way that you can't with rising trot.

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Re: Uses of rising vs sitting trot for encouraging swing

Postby Ponichiwa » Wed Apr 25, 2018 6:57 pm

My mare is one of those horses that has a natural tendency to rush the tempo as a response to any increase in pressure-- tension, asking for more engagement, whatever-- and I've found that in my own riding the rising trot helps steady the tempo and then subsequently build the swing and cadence. This was especially true when she was a young horse. Nowadays, we're building the same cadence with better engagement at the sitting trot, but it took quite a while to get to this point and there are times in the work when we need to return to the rising trot to decompress.

For a less claustrophobic horse, I think I could have accomplished the rising trot results with a sitting trot, but Kiwi has always been a bit resistant to rider input.

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Re: Uses of rising vs sitting trot for encouraging swing

Postby Tsavo » Thu Apr 26, 2018 11:09 am

musical comedy wrote:I am a person that has difficulty doing a good rising trot. It has to do with my conformation (and probably other things) that I won't get into here.


S. von Dietz says posting trot is technically difficult and few people do it correctly. I agree with that. I recently was trying to help someone who wanted help with her posting. I watched for many minutes and saw the problem but I was at an almost complete lost as to how to tell her what to do differently. I think she was sitting too long but when I focused on that, that didn't appear so. It's a poser.

I understand pros can do all sorts of things (please, don't point to this/that person does rising trot), but it is just common sense to me that you can get a better connection sitting. Posting, each time your seat leaves the tack, that's a loss of connection imo.


If you hadn't said this I would have mentioned Hester saying he posts on trained horses and does LY instead of HP on them to save the wear and tear. :D That said, I am sure he sits a bit and throws in some HPs in the training.

Also, I think von Dietz claims you can influence a horse as much in posting as sitting but I have to review that. But that may be the very point she is making that few people can do it. Hester can do it I am sure. I loaned that book to the person I was helping with posting trot because I thought it would be helpful to her. When I get it back I will check this stuff.

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Re: Uses of rising vs sitting trot for encouraging swing

Postby Rosie B » Thu Apr 26, 2018 11:29 am

I am one of those who is much more effective sitting than rising. If the horse is trucking along in nice balance and is nicely through, then I can rise very nicely and keep the balance easily. But to get to that point almost requires that I be sitting. It's a catch 22. I warm up in rising trot of course, but after about 5 minutes I switch to sitting.

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Re: Uses of rising vs sitting trot for encouraging swing

Postby kande50 » Thu Apr 26, 2018 11:58 am

I used to sit all the time, even on horses who weren't collected, but now I prefer to post and don't really like to sit. Don't know what changed? Maybe loss of muscle strength which makes posting easier than sitting, which in turn makes me feel more balanced?

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Re: Uses of rising vs sitting trot for encouraging swing

Postby DJR » Thu Apr 26, 2018 1:07 pm

I think that sitting has a role in encouraging a more expressive trot. However, I do strongly follow the tenets of BNTs like Walter Zettl, Carl Hester, etc., who say "do not sit the trot on a young horse. At the CH symposium last year, he said that he does not sit on a youngster before the age of 6, and uses rising trot throughout the horse's training, including to GP level, to encourage swing & looseness through the back. Of course, sitting trot (by an effective rider) can also promote more swing in a different way, but I must say that I keep that tenet in my mind every time I ride.
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Re: Uses of rising vs sitting trot for encouraging swing

Postby musical comedy » Thu Apr 26, 2018 1:34 pm

DJR wrote:I think that sitting has a role in encouraging a more expressive trot. However, I do strongly follow the tenets of BNTs like Walter Zettl, Carl Hester, etc., who say "do not sit the trot on a young horse. At the CH symposium last year, he said that he does not sit on a youngster before the age of 6, and uses rising trot throughout the horse's training, including to GP level, to encourage swing & looseness through the back. Of course, sitting trot (by an effective rider) can also promote more swing in a different way, but I must say that I keep that tenet in my mind every time I ride.
:lol: See my post above. I just knew someone was going to bring up "well, CH said this......". I'm sure if I look hard enough, I can find some BNT that advocates sitting.

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Re: Uses of rising vs sitting trot for encouraging swing

Postby DJR » Thu Apr 26, 2018 2:06 pm

Musical comedy - I didn't bring that up to stir the pot. I brought it up because it's a tenet I've heard for a very long time and ascribe to it. Perhaps I'm wrong to do that. And I also didn't bring it up to shove it down anyone's throat. I was contributing to the conversation about my own experience & views.

I certainly didn't bring it up to imply "if CH says this, then it is true and everyone has to follow it". I brought it up to contribute to the discussion because I was taught all along to post to encourage swing in the trot. Even in my reply above I also aaid that the sitting trot can also contribute to swing in a different way.

Perhaps I should have simply said my views without mentioning CH as mentioning CH & WAZ obviously derailed the conversation. Not my intent, at all.
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Re: Uses of rising vs sitting trot for encouraging swing

Postby musical comedy » Thu Apr 26, 2018 2:33 pm

DJR wrote:Musical comedy - I didn't bring that up to stir the pot. I brought it up because it's a tenet I've heard for a very long time and ascribe to it. Perhaps I'm wrong to do that. And I also didn't bring it up to shove it down anyone's throat. I was contributing to the conversation about my own experience & views.

I certainly didn't bring it up to imply "if CH says this, then it is true and everyone has to follow it". I brought it up to contribute to the discussion because I was taught all along to post to encourage swing in the trot. Even in my reply above I also aaid that the sitting trot can also contribute to swing in a different way.

Perhaps I should have simply said my views without mentioning CH as mentioning CH & WAZ obviously derailed the conversation. Not my intent, at all.
I didn't mean to get you upset either. Honestly. I just happened to get somewhat annoyed when people base their views on "so-and-so" said to do this or that. I prefer that discussions be what we do based on our experiences and personal opinions.

If someone is a talented enough rider to school all the advanced trot work doing rising trot, then good for them. I don't think that applies to the majority of AA's. Getting the kind of collection needed for half passes, extensions etc. requires a good bit of skill if you're doing it rising. And really, if you are destined to progress up the training ladder (as a few on this forum are), you are schooling light collection with 5 and 6 year old horses. Take a look at the 5 year old tests. Can you be schooling all your work rising and then only sit when you do a test? I dunno, maybe some people can.

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Re: Uses of rising vs sitting trot for encouraging swing

Postby DJR » Thu Apr 26, 2018 2:37 pm

Ya, I don't know either. I didn't start sitting on Panache until he turned 6 (late last summer). Even now, with him coming back into work after the winter off, I rise 80% of the time and only sit in short bursts to allow his back to adjust. I am seeing dividends from this approach, though, as he is lifting his back up to my seat now when I sit.

I was having some success in the last two years with up/down transitions within trot and encouraging baby collection. My instructor pushes this a lot, especially on youngsters. So I can see how it's possible to attain lower degrees of collection without sitting on the youngsters.
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Re: Uses of rising vs sitting trot for encouraging swing

Postby Dresseur » Thu Apr 26, 2018 2:46 pm

Personally, I think that there are a few factors.
1. it's hard to learn how to sit the trot well. Doubly hard if you don't have access to a horse that is schooled well enough for you to practice it.

2. People equate sitting with collection. So they wait until they think they are "doing collection" That's not the case. You can sit to a horse that is not collected as long as they have a good connection to the bridle, and are moving forward in a rhythm. But, it also takes good control on the rider's part to sit to a larger, more forward moving horse. And, collection is a continuum - it's not something that you wake up and say, Now my horse is ready for collection. All the work that you are doing, gradually brings the horse into collection.

3. The horse giving you a place to sit - this relates to the above point. If you are a skilled enough rider, you can cushion your seat on the horse's back so that you can coax the horse to relax through the sitting trot.

4. Horses have to be prepared to take the rider's weight. Not many people school or longe in an uphill shape - that shape helps build the bridge of the horse's back, so that a horse can better accept the rider's weight when the rider choses to sit. A lot of people ride in a longer frame that is not necessarily connected - which means the horse is not building the muscles across the topline and is not giving the rider a place to sit because the back is sagged down. So, it increases the time that it takes to get the horse used to carrying the weight. But, IMO... horses that can carry the weight of a rider in the canter can carry the weight of a rider in the sitting trot - which brings us back to skill....

5. many people don't ride forward enough or with enough energy to create a good connection - so, it's a cycle. Not enough energy from behind, means not a good connection, means rider struggles to sit, which means riders slows the horse down... rinse, repeat. Especially in the lateral work. Any amount of sideways bleeds impulsion, so people don't recognize that their horses are slowing in the lateral work. I always refresh the trot on the short sides or abandon the movement if I feel the horse slow.

6. Most people thing collection = slow. It's the opposite. The more the collection, the more the activity level should go up in the hinds. Which brings the overall gait up in the air as opposed to more ground cover. I still get into trouble with this in the piri canter. I always want to slow it to be on the spot instead of increasing activity and tipping the balance up. And then that goes into the cycle of number 4 and 5.
Last edited by Dresseur on Thu Apr 26, 2018 2:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Uses of rising vs sitting trot for encouraging swing

Postby piedmontfields » Thu Apr 26, 2018 2:49 pm

First, thank you all for the discussion and reflections. Very helpful! Definitely agreeing that sitting is not equal to riding collection. The forwardness (energy) needed for connection does require rider skills to create + sit (even as the energetic trot is much easier to sit, as the horse will suck you in).

What prompted me to post on this topic was a realization that both approaches I've been taught have a lot of value---and that I personally may need to be more flexible and strategic in choosing sitting or rising. I see the different teaching that I have encountered not as dogmatic or contradictory, but as a challenge to think about what I do when and why. I do think the kind of horse and age/development of horse plays a huge role, too, as many of you pointed out.

On a personal note, I do a fair bit of lateral work in rising trot (shoulder in, half pass). I find it a nice loosening, engine-awakening tool. I have some days where I do all of the trot warm up rising, but other days it is a mix (usually with lots of transitions from w-t). But when I really need to influence the horse, I sit. It is easier for me to be clear when sitting. I, too, have always felt that I don't have the best mechanics for the rising trot. I am better without stirrups, though!

Also, when my horse is acting like she is about to explode (ex. this week: a male turkey parades with feathers out in front of us on a trail), I sit. :D

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Re: Uses of rising vs sitting trot for encouraging swing

Postby Chisamba » Sat Apr 28, 2018 12:04 am

science can be very interesting. It can blow long held tenets right out of the water. It has recently been shown, using pressure sensors that the posting trot actually causes hind leg stride unevenness in young horses, on the up stride. There are people who post really well, remain engaged in the core, and do not have a particular push on the up or relax on the sit phase, but quite a lot of people have a thrust phase of posting which i can see adversely affecting the hind limb .

I too had been taught to rise on young horses, but modern science seems to be showing that a good sitting trot may not unevenly load the horse when pushing off in the hind legs

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Re: Uses of rising vs sitting trot for encouraging swing

Postby khall » Sat Apr 28, 2018 3:15 am

dresseur great points there!! Especially 4,5 and 6 IMO.

Rip is pretty difficult to sit most days, he has a good bit of movement through his back and because I am asking for MORE from him these days I am finding it even more difficult. That is a lot of horse to sit on! I did have some light bulb moments riding today and dresseur your post also gave me some aha. I am trying to ride him much more uphill (his conformation is not, with a lower set neck yet he can with engagement look much more uphill) tendencies and NOT stretching out and down. He does not need that except at the end for a break. That couple with ACTIVE hind legs means I am getting one heck of a ride right now and I am going to have to adjust to it. I think like dresseur says I need to take a bit of the sitting with my thighs and not try to SIT so much see if that will help. Was doing this asking trot halts today and he was nailing the halts.

I've not heard that about muscle building with uphill shape as opposed to stretch shape. Though was just reading something very similar on Manuel Jorge de Olivera's FB page (he trained under NO and was Anja Beran's mentor). I do think that can be horse dependent though. For a horse like Rip with big strong back and more of a downhill tendency he does not need to motor around all stretched out, just buries him on his forehand. Yet I've also ridden the total opposite type, with high head and neck, weak in the back and they IMO need time in a stretched frame to build that back strength before going to the higher frame. Some of the higher framed horses also need that stretch to keep those backs from getting too tight. The lovely Andi I rode in Spain fit this build. He could really over engage and get climby so needed to go more forward but with stretching to be his best. I think my filly really will be the best of both worlds. She is high headed from her Luso sire yet strong in her back and loin from her dam. Watching her today I can see where she will find engaging very easy, I was practically giggling lunging her today:) Need to get video of both of my guys to share! I promise I will. We have a long stretch of nice weather right now so hoping to get some good work in.

Gaila is an anomaly, one of the easiest horses I have ever sat on. Almost easier to sit her than to post. You just do not move. But she (even though full sister to Rip) has higher neck connection, not in much collection yet but carrying herself nicely. Gallie their dam, I find easier to sit riding her bareback than with saddle. Go figure.

I do both, sit and rise in lateral work. Rip I do tend to rise more, Gaila not as much usually. But all of my horses have very strong backs and loins, like Mark said I am not going to hurt these guys sitting on them!

piedmont LOL on the turkey! Totally feel you there!!!

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Re: Uses of rising vs sitting trot for encouraging swing

Postby Tsavo » Sat Apr 28, 2018 1:45 pm

Chisamba wrote:science can be very interesting. It can blow long held tenets right out of the water. It has recently been shown, using pressure sensors that the posting trot actually causes hind leg stride unevenness in young horses, on the up stride. There are people who post really well, remain engaged in the core, and do not have a particular push on the up or relax on the sit phase, but quite a lot of people have a thrust phase of posting which i can see adversely affecting the hind limb .

I too had been taught to rise on young horses, but modern science seems to be showing that a good sitting trot may not unevenly load the horse when pushing off in the hind legs


I wonder if the Lameness Locator was used to show this. Anyway I think this underscores von Dietz's comment about how technically hard posting is and few do it correctly.


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