More Leg! More Leg! - May and June Goals

A forum for discussion of training in dressage
piedmontfields
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1356
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2015 4:41 pm
Location: E Tennessee USA

Re: More Leg! More Leg! - May and June Goals

Postby piedmontfields » Sat Jun 02, 2018 1:01 am

Best wishes for a fun and educational venture tomorrow, chisamba!

I realize that I am very primitive in education and ability compared to many on this list---I appreciate your response and comments to questions and descriptions that I and others propose.

Demi, lots of good wishes to you for improved feelings and beings. DRJ, you are inspiring and also totally practical and theory-worthy for following. I wish you well in your next set of work!!

MC, this is not simple praise, but recognizing the work wherein FYI :-D

p.s. It would be lovely for me to focus on dressage training + yoga (my love), but I am grateful at the moment to still be able to work (given my health) and execute a demanding job for living....hence, I ride, but with less focus and judgement than I would prefer!

User avatar
musical comedy
500 post plus club
Posts: 643
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 3:41 pm
Location: New Jersey

Re: More Leg! More Leg! - May and June Goals

Postby musical comedy » Sat Jun 02, 2018 1:17 am

Chisamba, I hope you don't get rained out tomorrow. Your are considerably north of me, but we have thunderstorms and massive rain predicted tomorrow.

I am dealing with a leg issue too, but not nearly as serious as Demi's. I ride in pain, but it is affecting my riding.

Piedmont, I didn't understand your previous sentence to me.

DJR
Herd Member
Posts: 391
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 12:59 pm
Location: eastern Ontario, Canada

Re: More Leg! More Leg! - May and June Goals

Postby DJR » Sat Jun 02, 2018 2:17 am

I managed to sneak in one ride this evening before the skies opened up and the thunderstorms started. I tried Sawyer in my old Collegiate dressage saddle which has a wider tree than my AP saddle. I haven't used it in ages since I got my Amerigo (which I truly LOVE, and fits me so well not to mention fitting Jet perfectly). It felt weird to sit in it, but I could tell that Sawyer liked it better than the AP saddle. I had zero balking tonight, and some lovely moments where he is trusting the contact more and daring to use his back a wee bit. I think the other saddle was pinching him. I kept it short & to the point, praising him every time he was brave enough to reach for the contact, and giving him many walk breaks. Very satisfying (and for him, too, I think!)!
formerly known as "Deanna" on UDBB -- and prior to that, as "DJD".

Moutaineer
500 post plus club
Posts: 959
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 2:45 pm
Location: Utah

Re: More Leg! More Leg! - May and June Goals

Postby Moutaineer » Sat Jun 02, 2018 6:22 am

DJR, it sounds like you may have solved that little problem at any rate! Love the driving pictures--years ago, I had a friend who ran a wedding carriage business in central London. I used to help her out on the weekends and maneuvering carriages full of thankfully oblivious wedding parties through places like Hyde Park Corner was interesting at times. If you hold your driving whip just right you can ward of marauding vehicles, or at least use the knob end of it to bang on their roofs if they get too close.

I lost my nerve for driving. I think dressage turned me into a control freak.

I'm trying to settle my new life into a routine. I think it's going to take a little while, and I feel a bit discombobulated at the moment. I can't even work out what day of the week it is a lot of the time... My theory is that I will largely work in the mornings and ride and do other things in the afternoons. However my clients have to fit in with this plan and they have been less than co-operative this week!

Still, I did go ride this afternoon--of course the rhythm of the barn is different in the afternoons and I ended up riding with the little girls, who had been practicing braiding their ponies with pink ribbons and flowers... Our trainer is out of town and I felt a bit of an old misery having to break it to them and their doting mothers that this level of self expression wasn't going to fly at the recognized dressage show we will all be attending in two weeks.

Plugging away on precision, expression, connection and all those good basic things here. I'm not at the level to be able to get into the angels dancing on the head of a pin discussions.

khall
500 post plus club
Posts: 763
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 1:47 am

Re: More Leg! More Leg! - May and June Goals

Postby khall » Sat Jun 02, 2018 10:54 am

But tsavo that is not what you said, you said what I posted was trick riding, not real riding. I look at riding with neck rope or bridle less as another tool in the tool box, Anja Beran uses the neck rope in hand, to check the willingness of the horse and her connection to them. I like trainers who think outside the box, why I am riding with Cedar now, she also rides bridle less and works the horses at liberty. Again, the liberty work is to test our connection with the horse. https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid ... =3&theater Cedar riding with neck ring.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid ... =3&theater Some liberty work with one of her TBs.

There was a rider in a Manola clinic who was just riding with neck rope only, had done all of her training that way. I had not seen video of her work and I am sure that it was taking longer to get to her end goal but apparently what she was doing was working. Again it takes being able to think outside the box. Most of the riders that I admire who ride bridle less do use the bridle for teaching, even in the NH world, they use the bridle teaching then ride bridle less for testing. Like the David and Karen here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ImzUgnhV-EU

Hosting a clinic with Cedar this weekend, heading out now to feed etc. Hope to get some video and will share.

Happy riding all! We've been still having rain every day, puddles and soupy mess except for my arena which is holding up well. Pray for clear weather for chisamba and her show and my clinic!

Tsavo
500 post plus club
Posts: 821
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 2:01 am

Re: More Leg! More Leg! - May and June Goals

Postby Tsavo » Sat Jun 02, 2018 11:45 am

There is a woman who taught most or all the work through GP to her horse from the ground using a lot of non-bitted bridle. She is a lower level rider and wanted a GP horse but didn't want to buy one and knew she couldn't train it from the saddle. I have to give her credit for trying and I think the footfalls probably were close to correct on that work. She got on to see if she could then learn these FEI movements now that she had an "FEI" horse.

Then a GP trainer got on the horse and there was no correct reaction at all. No basics.

This is raising trick training to a zen art.

User avatar
musical comedy
500 post plus club
Posts: 643
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 3:41 pm
Location: New Jersey

Re: More Leg! More Leg! - May and June Goals

Postby musical comedy » Sat Jun 02, 2018 12:03 pm

Moutaineer wrote: I'm not at the level to be able to get into the angels dancing on the head of a pin discussions.
:lol: We don't all admire the same people nor (at least it appears) we are not all on the same page as far as goals and training styles/techniques are concerned.

Tsavo
500 post plus club
Posts: 821
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 2:01 am

Re: More Leg! More Leg! - May and June Goals

Postby Tsavo » Sat Jun 02, 2018 12:15 pm

Except for Chisamba, we are all just a bunch of ammies as far as I know. It's a long road for everyone. Nobody gets out alive or sane. LOL

The issue of not trying to keep professionals and actually banning them raises the art of cutting off your nose to spite your face to symphonic levels. Doing that belies a lack of seriousness about learning this sport. And then it is just bunnies talking to bunnies.

User avatar
musical comedy
500 post plus club
Posts: 643
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 3:41 pm
Location: New Jersey

Re: More Leg! More Leg! - May and June Goals

Postby musical comedy » Sat Jun 02, 2018 12:26 pm

Tsavo wrote:Except for Chisamba, we are all just a bunch of ammies as far as I know. It's a long road for everyone. Nobody gets out alive or sane. LOL

The issue of not trying to keep professionals and actually banning them raises the art of cutting off your nose to spite your face to symphonic levels. Doing that belies a lack of seriousness about learning this sport. And then it is just bunnies talking to bunnies.
Well, this statement is unclear, but I 'think' I can read between the lines and know what you are talking about. Next, the insinuation that all AA's have less to offer or are lesser rider/trainers than all pros is just plain wrong and insulting.
Last edited by musical comedy on Sat Jun 02, 2018 1:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Tsavo
500 post plus club
Posts: 821
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 2:01 am

Re: More Leg! More Leg! - May and June Goals

Postby Tsavo » Sat Jun 02, 2018 12:43 pm

No I am not saying ammie's have nothing to offer. I am saying pros who have trained lots of FEI horses have much more to offer in general. And I am not limiting my comment about banning pros to this iteration of the forum. It goes back to previous ones. It is not a serious response.

User avatar
musical comedy
500 post plus club
Posts: 643
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 3:41 pm
Location: New Jersey

Re: More Leg! More Leg! - May and June Goals

Postby musical comedy » Sat Jun 02, 2018 12:46 pm

Pros that have trained lots of FEI horses usually don't participate in forum discussions. My trainer, and those that preceeded him, would never even considered posting on a chat forum. For one thing, good trainers are very busy and don't have time.

Tsavo
500 post plus club
Posts: 821
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 2:01 am

Re: More Leg! More Leg! - May and June Goals

Postby Tsavo » Sat Jun 02, 2018 3:27 pm

musical comedy wrote:Pros that have trained lots of FEI horses usually don't participate in forum discussions. My trainer, and those that preceeded him, would never even considered posting on a chat forum. For one thing, good trainers are very busy and don't have time.


I don't disagree with that. But there have been trainers of that ilk on the various iterations of this forum who have been banned or left. The idea that a person like that could get banned by a lesser rider just seems so unseemly to me. Idiocracy.

Moutaineer
500 post plus club
Posts: 959
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 2:45 pm
Location: Utah

Re: More Leg! More Leg! - May and June Goals

Postby Moutaineer » Sat Jun 02, 2018 4:47 pm

DJR, you have gone viral...

The school bus photo was shared with me on facebook by a friend in Ontario :)

Moutaineer
500 post plus club
Posts: 959
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 2:45 pm
Location: Utah

Re: More Leg! More Leg! - May and June Goals

Postby Moutaineer » Sat Jun 02, 2018 4:54 pm

I think this particular series of posts was supposed to be for "bunnies talking to bunnies," as you so charmingly put it, Tsavo. We provincial bunnies need somewhere to rabbit on about our lowly achievements and goals without driving our spouses and immediate families to drink.

May I gently suggest your intellectual prowess might be better served by starting your own post to discuss the more arcane subjects that float your boat rather than hijacking this one... again.

It's all riding horses for fun at the end of the day.

Tsavo
500 post plus club
Posts: 821
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 2:01 am

Re: More Leg! More Leg! - May and June Goals

Postby Tsavo » Sat Jun 02, 2018 7:17 pm

I'm one of the bunnies.

Tsavo
500 post plus club
Posts: 821
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 2:01 am

Re: More Leg! More Leg! - May and June Goals

Postby Tsavo » Sat Jun 02, 2018 7:19 pm

Hence my concern for the lack of concern about losing non-bunnies.

User avatar
StraightForward
500 post plus club
Posts: 977
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 3:04 pm

Re: More Leg! More Leg! - May and June Goals

Postby StraightForward » Sat Jun 02, 2018 8:29 pm

Well, I hope everyone will keep having these discussions, even when there is disagreement.

I'm not sure if the descriptions that were posted helped, but in my last two rides, I thought more about having A follow the inside rein, and got some much better canter. I think in my quest to contain her shoulders and get her on the outside rein, I was not turning MY shoulders in the direction of travel enough. I've frequently been yelled at about hanging on the inside rein, but I don't think I was this time, just using it with a little more of an opening feel and encouraging a little more "flow" around the circle. I don't know that this would have worked as well even three weeks ago, but A's canter feels much less chaotic now, and she was able to follow my hand without falling in, for the most part.
The UDBB member known as AQHA Hunter

Tsavo
500 post plus club
Posts: 821
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 2:01 am

Re: More Leg! More Leg! - May and June Goals

Postby Tsavo » Sat Jun 02, 2018 9:00 pm

StraightForward wrote:I'm not sure if the descriptions that were posted helped, but in my last two rides, I thought more about having A follow the inside rein, and got some much better canter. I think in my quest to contain her shoulders and get her on the outside rein, I was not turning MY shoulders in the direction of travel enough. I've frequently been yelled at about hanging on the inside rein, but I don't think I was this time, just using it with a little more of an opening feel and encouraging a little more "flow" around the circle. I don't know that this would have worked as well even three weeks ago, but A's canter feels much less chaotic now, and she was able to follow my hand without falling in, for the most part.


I agree with your point about keeping your shoulders aligned with your horse's shoulders. That will help with the inside-outside contact I think.

If your horse will move into the outside rein from your inside leg, it will show you how much you need in the outside while lessening the need to do much with the inside. Riding in position just makes everything much easier in my opinion. Plus it just feels good because the horse is in one piece so to speak and every body part in on the same page with what you are doing. It's like a way to instantly organize the whole horse.

Have you tried "turning the key" instead of opening your inside rein? Horses take this very well for some reason though I don't know why. Also juggling both hands works really well to find correct contact.

In terms of chaotic canters, I actually stepped off and let my instructor ride the horse exercise because I was struggling with this also. She got on and had the same issues and said he might need some help with his hocks. He does not stay under my weight and he switches behind lately. I am so glad she rode.

khall
500 post plus club
Posts: 763
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 1:47 am

Re: More Leg! More Leg! - May and June Goals

Postby khall » Sat Jun 02, 2018 9:00 pm

Excellent update today! Cedar helped me tremendously with Rip's piaffe work. I had gotten the energy and diagnolization down, she was working on holding him in place and getting more from the front end. Rip was doing a bit of levade:) You could really see him lifting out of his chest and then finally he got the idea of lifting one front leg then the other instead of both at the same time. Was very nice. Going to work on some Spanish Walk tomorrow, not anything I've played with before. Then we worked on lots of lateral work, moving from one to the other and asking more sideways of him. Targeting the LH which is his slower hind leg. Moving from HI to HP to counter TOF, to TOH back to HP. Good stuff.

And my filly is wearing a saddle now! Or more like a glorified bareback pad (Christ Fur saddle). WTC with it, very little issues except just a tiny bit in the canter. I just adore this filly, she is smart, willing and a really nice mover.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid ... =3&theater

piedmontfields
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1356
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2015 4:41 pm
Location: E Tennessee USA

Re: More Leg! More Leg! - May and June Goals

Postby piedmontfields » Sat Jun 02, 2018 9:27 pm

I had a really nice, simple ride today. Just very smooth and prompt reactions to changes of bend, changes of frame, changes of stride length esp. in trot but also in canter. The only exciting bit was when we were returning from the fields and we spooked a deer out of the shrubs on the edge of the field while we were walking on a long rein. She almost ran right into us! But Em jumped only as much as I did :lol:

Khall , your young mare is very pretty. Lovely eye. I just figured out that your Cedar used to work for JP in KY. That gives me pause, but I'm glad you are enjoying her and developing a connection with a new trainer after your loss. And it's wonderful that Rip is working well.

Tsavo
500 post plus club
Posts: 821
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 2:01 am

Re: More Leg! More Leg! - May and June Goals

Postby Tsavo » Sat Jun 02, 2018 10:21 pm

piedmontfields wrote:Khall , your young mare is very pretty. Lovely eye. I just figured out that your Cedar used to work for JP in KY. That gives me pause, but I'm glad you are enjoying her and developing a connection with a new trainer after your loss. And it's wonderful that Rip is working well.


How do you know it is the same person? I am doubtful it is the same person.

User avatar
musical comedy
500 post plus club
Posts: 643
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 3:41 pm
Location: New Jersey

Re: More Leg! More Leg! - May and June Goals

Postby musical comedy » Sat Jun 02, 2018 11:16 pm

Tsavo wrote:How do you know it is the same person? I am doubtful it is the same person.
It's the same person. Piedmont probably saw some videos like this one.

http://youtu.be/GnCIavIDyR0?list=PLxqF5 ... hqpNgYkXWN

Cedar was roasted on a COTH thread a couple years back. She has apparently improved in 3 years.

https://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/foru ... ini-clinic

Dresseur
Herd Member
Posts: 473
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2015 12:16 am

Re: More Leg! More Leg! - May and June Goals

Postby Dresseur » Sun Jun 03, 2018 12:12 am

DJR, you are definitely going viral with that pic! I'm so impressed with how well he and your trainer handled that situation. Not easy, especially for a horse that you've mentioned has been a bit difficult. StraightForward and others - it's so great hearing how your journeys are progressing!

With that being said - I just want to say, I've loved being on this board because I was able to share my journey with others without judgement. I didn't come here to push what I'm doing on anyone else, or push a methodology or agenda, or to pretend that I have all the answers and that I'm better than anyone else. I just wanted to be one of the "bunnies" and share. I screw up just as much as the next person and I've been honest about where I feel that I've gone wrong, and what I'm doing to right the ship in the hopes that a lightbulb will go off for someone, the way that I've had lightbulbs talking with others (such as my conversations with Chisamba).

I look forward to the discussions and insights from everyone on this board. But, it feels as though the tenor of responses has changed to the last couple of posts that I've made, and I feel as though I have to defend what I'm doing, rather than just have a discussion about methodologies. I will not agree with everyone's methods, and not everyone's methods are right for me and my horse and vice versa and that's ok - but neither should anyone have to defend their journey to anyone else. We're all learning and we're all doing what we feel is best. I would love to have a part in keeping this a discussion board instead of an attack and defend board.

Tsavo
500 post plus club
Posts: 821
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 2:01 am

Re: More Leg! More Leg! - May and June Goals

Postby Tsavo » Sun Jun 03, 2018 12:20 am

musical comedy wrote:
Tsavo wrote:How do you know it is the same person? I am doubtful it is the same person.
It's the same person. Piedmont probably saw some videos like this one.

http://youtu.be/GnCIavIDyR0?list=PLxqF5 ... hqpNgYkXWN

Cedar was roasted on a COTH thread a couple years back. She has apparently improved in 3 years.

https://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/foru ... ini-clinic


You are absolutely right.

Tsavo
500 post plus club
Posts: 821
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 2:01 am

Re: More Leg! More Leg! - May and June Goals

Postby Tsavo » Sun Jun 03, 2018 12:31 am

Dresseur wrote:I look forward to the discussions and insights from everyone on this board. But, it feels as though the tenor of responses has changed to the last couple of posts that I've made, and I feel as though I have to defend what I'm doing, rather than just have a discussion about methodologies. I will not agree with everyone's methods, and not everyone's methods are right for me and my horse and vice versa and that's ok - but neither should anyone have to defend their journey to anyone else. We're all learning and we're all doing what we feel is best. I would love to have a part in keeping this a discussion board instead of an attack and defend board.


I agree with this. Many "bunnies/ammies" especially you have valuable information that has helped me. My comments were about not valuing elite experience by some moderators. It is unseemly and counterproductive if the goal is to learn.

piedmontfields
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1356
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2015 4:41 pm
Location: E Tennessee USA

Re: More Leg! More Leg! - May and June Goals

Postby piedmontfields » Sun Jun 03, 2018 1:14 am

Moutaineer wrote:I think this particular series of posts was supposed to be for "bunnies talking to bunnies," as you so charmingly put it, Tsavo. We provincial bunnies need somewhere to rabbit on about our lowly achievements and goals without driving our spouses and immediate families to drink.
...It's all riding horses for fun at the end of the day.


Once again, Mountaineer is dead on! This board is delightful for its support of various processes of learning and development. Most of us are earnest amateurs. Unlike many earnest amateurs on other online settings, most of us actually ride regularly and seek to ride to train/improve the horse (and ourselves). I find that inspirational and informational.

If you are on this board for praise that "you are right!" "you know things!", that is incredibly boring.

Kyra's Mom
Herd Member
Posts: 484
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2015 2:04 am
Location: Sunny? Southern Idaho

Re: More Leg! More Leg! - May and June Goals

Postby Kyra's Mom » Sun Jun 03, 2018 6:27 am

Such deep discussions :? . Me, I am just happy to be on the back of my horse. I think I have 7-8 rides in so far on this 2 month chunk. My goal is 10 so I am more than on track and that makes me happy that I don't have to wait 5 or 6 days between rides for the old butt to cool off (pain wise). It is definitely improving.

Kyra seems to be more than happy to pack my (currently way too big) butt around. I am certainly not demanding much at the moment. I finally get my butt more compliant but my back just doesn't take much in the compression department (trot or canter). I do little bits of trot here and there but the ride before last, I definitely over did the trot work.

That ride I did turn on the forehand on the square...so 1/4 turn on each corner. After she was responding nicely to the leg, I asked her to trot on after the turn. The turns really got the inside hind pushing and I had some very nice transitions. Right is her weaker hind and I did have to use some whip assist to convince her that she needs to move that hind and NOW. I finally got a couple transitions that she really pushed into the trot, even on the right. However, I paid for it later in the day between the back pain and even the butt was sore but they both abated by the next day.

Today, we went to the track. It was a gorgeous day and we finally have our nice dry weather back. We have had 2 weeks of evening storms and rain and humidity :P . Today was nicely warm and it was a dry heat ;) . Much more tolerable for me.

Today we were back to doing some lateral work. I first warmed her up with some steeper leg yield zigzags...like across the 10 ft track in 4-5 strides, straight forward 2-3 steps then back the other way. Then we did some SI-->renver-->SI. I did them at the edge of the track, using that as a fence. It went much better than using the centerline and having trouble controlling her butt. After we did a couple of those, I would have her trot off and we trotted one side of the track then back to walk, rinse repeat.

I am going to keep riding as much as I can until my late July back surgery. Microdiscectomy. Surgeon feels no need for anything more extensive than trimming that danged bulge off the nerve root. Yay! I should be back to riding after 2-3 months. That will give the butt a bit more time to improve so hopefully by late fall, I can be a bit more active in my riding.
Today, I rode for a solid 35 minutes and could have done some more. We did wander down the road a bit and check out the cows next door. She was interested but didn't do anything but watch them.

Demi I hope your problem is improving. I can commiserate as I am having weakness too, in my left leg and hip...coming from a bulging disc. I haven't fallen but boy, uneven ground or going up stairs makes me grit my teeth and walk like a little old lady. The other day, I wasn't quite sure I was going to make it up on Kyra as the left leg did not want to cooperate and push me up there at all. Today was better. I am going to keep trying anyway :P .

Happy riding all.

Susan
from susamorg on the UDBB

demi
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1134
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 7:02 pm
Location: Texas

Re: More Leg! More Leg! - May and June Goals

Postby demi » Sun Jun 03, 2018 9:31 am

Kyra's mom, you're not JUST on the back of your horse! You are RIDING! And IMO, you are doing dressage. Your contributions to this board are thoughtfully written and valuable to an amateur like me.

I am fine with being simply an amateur dressage rider. I consider myself meek, but I do not just nibble the grass on this board. Nor am I frightened away by the deeper discussions (and I am referring to the validly deep discussions, not the "deep $h!t" ones.)

I feel like a broken record saying this , but I appreciate those who take the time to really explain and share their experiences. We are all different and in different places on our journey, and we are in a unique situation to be able to learn here. Many of our contributors work at full time, demanding, jobs and careers, and yet they take the time to share their dressage training experiences. Most of us on this board respect and appreciated their contributions to the discussions. I have learned a lot from them.

Just a couple of random things: I thought the picture of the standardbred horse, was NOT disingenuous, but was a perfect example of the point. And I am still thinking about that picture as I contemplate rein contact. Thanks for that picture, Chisamba.

And Mountaneer, your wry sense of humor helps considerably when some people get a little to full of themselves!
Thanks for lightening things up for us!!

khall
500 post plus club
Posts: 763
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 1:47 am

Re: More Leg! More Leg! - May and June Goals

Postby khall » Sun Jun 03, 2018 11:08 am

Yes Cedar is JP's assistant trainer (I had some reservations, but it was about JP not Cedar). https://www.facebook.com/Cedarequinedev ... 636125670/ This is the first video I saw of Cedar and I liked it. This is one of her TB retraining projects. You can look at her page and see more of what she is doing now, the video MC so lovingly posted was from 4 yrs ago. I risked working with someone I did not really know but I am glad I did. She has a very good eye and uses the exercises that I spent years learning from Mark, coming from that Nuno O influence since JP worked with NO as well.

After working with Mark for so long and being steeped in that influence it has been difficult to find someone that resonates with me, Cedar does. I feel like she can very much help me move forward with Rip and my filly, not wasting time, not taking too much time, pushing without frying them. I have audited Bettina (could not stand her, horses were tense and tight and she is arrogant) the SRS in hand work leaves me flummoxed, what I saw with AK was not horse friendly. Legerte is not in my wheelhouse either, some similarities but enough differences to not feel right, so too with the Straightness Training stuff. Competition trainers do not use the exercises that I learned from Mark, no in hand work and do not use the lateral work on bending lines very much. I would love to work with Anja B or her head rider, don't see that happening though. As many have pointed out this is my journey and I have to find what works and speaks to me. If in my questioning of others methods you have felt attacked, I apologize, that was not my intention. Obviously my posting here sparks controversy and I tend to not step away from it. Sometimes I do feel it can get personal and it should not.

Thankfully we are all adults and can agree to disagree I hope, no skin off my nose! But I can also step away spending more time with my own horses if that is required.

Josette
500 post plus club
Posts: 892
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 3:53 pm
Location: NJ

Re: More Leg! More Leg! - May and June Goals

Postby Josette » Sun Jun 03, 2018 11:26 am

I still cannot get a break with our weather to get some consistent riding in. The rain seems never to end. :x However, I've always looked forward to reading the conversations and updates here. Many of you get credit for clicking some :idea: for me which I've used on my guy. Your journeys and sharing your experiences have been extremely helpful for me to make progress in my riding. So I thank you all for sharing and hope you continue to do so in the future. Opinions and different viewpoints are just that and IMO not to be taken personally. Ride on everyone and enjoy!

Tsavo
500 post plus club
Posts: 821
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 2:01 am

Re: More Leg! More Leg! - May and June Goals

Postby Tsavo » Sun Jun 03, 2018 12:26 pm

khall wrote:Yes Cedar is JP's assistant trainer (I had some reservations, but it was about JP not Cedar). https://www.facebook.com/Cedarequinedev ... 636125670/ This is the first video I saw of Cedar and I liked it.


I agree she is riding differently now. This may be hard to answer but what level would you say she could train a horse in your opinion? That is, if she went to a show, what is the highest level she could show a horse she trained?

Based on his members-only videos and the public videos, I would not say JP is in the walk-halt-walk-halt-walk-P&P school of instruction so I assume Cedar is not doing that either.

so too with the Straightness Training stuff.


Can you please elaborate on this? Doesn't everyone teach straightness?

User avatar
Chisamba
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 2132
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 10:33 pm
Location: New Jersey

Re: More Leg! More Leg! - May and June Goals

Postby Chisamba » Sun Jun 03, 2018 1:28 pm

Musical Comedy, we had some rain but it was manageable. I ended to taking five riders to the show, and my ride on Kimba totally sandwiched between client rides so iI up having a friend take her in the ring. Friend didn't have much experience in second level and got lost a couple of times in her geometry . The exercise taught me two things. I really cannot show when I'm taking clients, and Kimba is ready for second level.

It was a very good day for my friends who I help train and teach. They all had definite improvements. The remarkable thing about dressage is that you are ultimately riding against your previous self. I have a rider who has struggled with leg yield . She came second in her class, and battled overcoming tension, but she got 8 for both leg yields and I think fellow dressage riders will understand the euphoria of seeing that 8 on the score sheet.

We can enjoy small success. We can appreciate each others journey without having to be on the same path.

I have taken a few clinics with trainers invested in unique methods of training. For me personally the methods are too divergent from what works for me to be beneficial.

I can empathize with Khall. When we lived in Zambia and I had my first experience with a trainer that was inspirational, and then for years and years was totally without guidance it was difficult. I relied on the podhajski books.

Then when I was "developed" in South Africa. They made available many clinicians. It was a politically incorrect time in SA, so basically it was anyone who would come (apartheid). We were banned from international competition. Anyway, every three months we had a clinician. One would tell us to slow down and balance. The next would have us dangle our legs on stirrups that just touched our toes and fly around on the forehand. Then we got this old German lady who was golden. She actually explained but actions, rein aids etc. But she was traditional, she had ridden at "the Berlin school". Anyway she too was transformative.

Anyway. I too have had transformative experiences and long droughts. I can empathise.

I think perhaps that is why look outside of dressage a lot. Horses don't read the books. They behave like horses. No matter what sport.

Anyway. I have through my varied experiences realized it is more helpful for me to seek assistance from those who are on a similar path . Side trips are interesting and entertaining. Some pleasant, some horrifying, but rarely progressive. What progresses me is what makes sense.

I don't discuss to convert. I am not zealous about my method. I simply try to consider the horse. And I am ridiculously pedantic or logical. That is simply who I am. I actually enjoy online discussion.

I have only brought two horses up through the levels to FEI level. Sunstorm, and Rose. Well Kea too but she burned before I could show her.

I have brought many through the levels to fourth, in US terminology. I still consider piaffe, passage and canter pirouttes to be difficult enough that very few horses and riders do it well.

Somewhere inside I am still the kid who got on my horse with no saddle or bridle in a ten acre field, kicked her into a gallop, and went for the ride. I had no TV, limited books, and all my brothers were at boarding school. I basically lived with the herd. I learned that the boss horse is in charge but generally benign. The non alpha are the nasty aggressive ones with something to prove. I learned to consider what my horse understands. And it's not human rules.

Anyway. It is not my intention to hurt anyone, or even prove anything. I have ridden endurance races, herded cattle, miles and miles of trails, galloped with no tack, jumped, evented, done saddleseat, reining , western pleasure, if there is a horse in it, I feel more at home. A standardbred horse is more similar to a dressage horse than different. Western pleasure training can show similarities to dressage. Jumping and collection have their components of similarity.
For one thing I truly believe, if you have one source of learning, you have limited yourself.

If anyone actually read all of this, thank you for your kindness.

User avatar
musical comedy
500 post plus club
Posts: 643
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 3:41 pm
Location: New Jersey

Re: More Leg! More Leg! - May and June Goals

Postby musical comedy » Sun Jun 03, 2018 1:49 pm

Chisamba wrote:Anyway. I have through my varied experiences realized it is more helpful for me to seek assistance from those who are on a similar path . Side trips are interesting and entertaining. Some pleasant, some horrifying, but rarely progressive. What progresses me is what makes sense.

Chisamba wrote:For one thing I truly believe, if you have one source of learning, you have limited yourself.

Chisamaba wrote:If anyone actually read all of this, thank you for your kindness.


I read it all as I always do.
I extracted two things because they seem to contradict, although it is probably my misunderstanding.
Is it having a closed mind to stick with training methods of those on a similar path? If you (g) have a trainer or trainers that have accomplished what you want to accomplish and if you like the way their horses go and how they train them, then why would you want to experiment with another technique. This is especially true for someone like me that has been riding for 50 years.

My mind is totally closed to some things, I admit. Thinks like the Pkarl school. Just not interested. My focus isn't on piaffe/passage either. I appreciate it, but it was never my goal. I just want to ride a supple through horse in basic work.

User avatar
Chisamba
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 2132
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 10:33 pm
Location: New Jersey

Re: More Leg! More Leg! - May and June Goals

Postby Chisamba » Sun Jun 03, 2018 2:57 pm

MC. You are right, juxtaposed they are contradictory. And yet somehow I believe them both. Because I know that a horse with a bit harsh enough to bloody its mouth can still gallop and jump xc... I'm might show me that weight in the rain doesn't block forward, but it doesn't mean I want to do that.

I've seen a horse and rider do flying changes by the hand touching the shoulder. Or the whip held up being flicked left to right. I realize that horses are trained by consistency . But its still not a trick I plan to use. But it helps me realize accidental inconsistencies in riders often result in unfair blame to the horse.

Being open to other options increases my understanding, and often gives me subtle options. But it doesn't have to significantly alter the mainstay of my influences.

I hope I have been able to make sense of the contradiction. Lol. It makes sense to me.

User avatar
Chisamba
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 2132
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 10:33 pm
Location: New Jersey

Re: More Leg! More Leg! - May and June Goals

Postby Chisamba » Sun Jun 03, 2018 3:02 pm

Like Dresseur, I mostly share my discovery and journey. I make mistakes, I have fears, I fail. Despite that sometimes i may also be of help.

I find help here too.

User avatar
StraightForward
500 post plus club
Posts: 977
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 3:04 pm

Re: More Leg! More Leg! - May and June Goals

Postby StraightForward » Mon Jun 04, 2018 12:20 am

Tsavo wrote:
StraightForward wrote:I'm not sure if the descriptions that were posted helped, but in my last two rides, I thought more about having A follow the inside rein, and got some much better canter. I think in my quest to contain her shoulders and get her on the outside rein, I was not turning MY shoulders in the direction of travel enough. I've frequently been yelled at about hanging on the inside rein, but I don't think I was this time, just using it with a little more of an opening feel and encouraging a little more "flow" around the circle. I don't know that this would have worked as well even three weeks ago, but A's canter feels much less chaotic now, and she was able to follow my hand without falling in, for the most part.


I agree with your point about keeping your shoulders aligned with your horse's shoulders. That will help with the inside-outside contact I think.

If your horse will move into the outside rein from your inside leg, it will show you how much you need in the outside while lessening the need to do much with the inside. Riding in position just makes everything much easier in my opinion. Plus it just feels good because the horse is in one piece so to speak and every body part in on the same page with what you are doing. It's like a way to instantly organize the whole horse.

Have you tried "turning the key" instead of opening your inside rein? Horses take this very well for some reason though I don't know why. Also juggling both hands works really well to find correct contact.

In terms of chaotic canters, I actually stepped off and let my instructor ride the horse exercise because I was struggling with this also. She got on and had the same issues and said he might need some help with his hocks. He does not stay under my weight and he switches behind lately. I am so glad she rode.


I use "turning the key" more for flexion than for bending. Remember my horse is a green 5 year old, so a bit of opening rein makes sense. She could be giving me inside flexion, but still flying out through the outside shoulder. Fixing my shoulders and being a little more open with the inside rein she seems more capable of following her nose around with her shoulders, in better alignment.

And again - being a green 5 yo, the chaotic canter makes sense. It has actually come together by leaps and bounds in the last couple weeks. She was able to canter a small grid today as well as turning up the centerline in canter. A month ago it often felt like we were barely going to make the turn at the arena fence on the downhill side, and cantering more than one pole was unthinkable. I'm sure a pro could have gotten her balanced out more quickly, but it's all coming along.

I think the bigger lesson for me was to not get so focused on a single mantra (inside leg to outside rein) that some of the basics (turning the shoulders) go out the window. :)
The UDBB member known as AQHA Hunter

khall
500 post plus club
Posts: 763
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 1:47 am

Re: More Leg! More Leg! - May and June Goals

Postby khall » Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:11 am

tsavo https://www.facebook.com/Cedarequinedev ... 920569242/ this horse is one Cedar has trained herself under JP's eye. She will be showing him PSG/I1 here this summer and will show JP's other stallion at GP later in the year. She has not done much showing so it will be a learning experience for her. You have to understand what I look for in an instructor though is very different from what most of you probably would. More than likely none of you would have liked the way Mark rode, but it was his knowledge and eye and endless supply of what next to do that I appreciated. I do dressage because I want to make my horses more biomechanically better, not because I am looking to show a certain level. Why I think piaffe is invaluable in helping a horse get stronger. Anja B uses piaffe as PT for the broken horses she gets in. Cedar's eye and use of exercises (and yes piaffe) very much aligns with my thinking. I also asked her about inside/outside rein and she believes as I do that the horse should be more into the outside rein and not evenly in the reins. That is something I have learned from my early on training and it was reinforced often by Mark who called the inside rein the binkie rein. Just food for thought. Saying you should ride evenly into both reins was like saying the sky was green:)

Straightness Training: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbXxyw2fU_c

So while the in hand work is similar in "Straightness Training", yet different. Mark felt strongly about using the bit for releasing the TMJ, it was a corner stone of his work ST uses caveson, then caveson/curb. Mark also emphasized releasing the neck out and down and checking the mobility of C1/occiput. I also want to see more energy in the work. Collection is about energy.

Thanks chisamba for your thoughts and yes I understand where you are coming from about being open but also being firm in your beliefs of the work you do. That is why I went down the NH road for about 5 years, to get away from dressage land and because of a particular horse I had at that time. Then found Mark and it felt like I had found my home.

Had some very good lessons, Rip felt much better in his left lateral work that we worked on yesterday and he had some good medium trots. Started Spanish walk which he seems to find right up his alley and more piaffe in hand which he got a bit spectacular with though his posture was so much better even if he was protesting a bit.

My filly continues to impress me with her movement and willingness and connection to me. Wore the bareback pad again and added in flapping feed sacks first on the inside then on both sides with very little excitement. I just adore her and am so in love with her movement. Very balanced each direction with lovely free movement. A friend will tape for me (I hope) tomorrow so will share.

Tsavo
500 post plus club
Posts: 821
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 2:01 am

Re: More Leg! More Leg! - May and June Goals

Postby Tsavo » Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:25 am

khall wrote:tsavo https://www.facebook.com/Cedarequinedev ... 920569242/ this horse is one Cedar has trained herself under JP's eye. She will be showing him PSG/I1 here this summer and will show JP's other stallion at GP later in the year. She has not done much showing so it will be a learning experience for her.


She certainly has learned a lot from JP.



She should wear a helmet. King-Dye didn't think she needed a helmet either. This work reminds me of that woman I mentioned who taught everything from the ground.

User avatar
musical comedy
500 post plus club
Posts: 643
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 3:41 pm
Location: New Jersey

Re: More Leg! More Leg! - May and June Goals

Postby musical comedy » Mon Jun 04, 2018 1:14 pm

Tsavo wrote:She certainly has learned a lot from JP.
It shows how a rider can advance tremendously if they stick with a competent trainer and have decent horses to ride. Being able to ride those smaller baroque horses that are collection machines is so helpful too.

Khall, why don't you send your filly to Cedar to get started?

piedmontfields
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1356
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2015 4:41 pm
Location: E Tennessee USA

Re: More Leg! More Leg! - May and June Goals

Postby piedmontfields » Mon Jun 04, 2018 1:46 pm

Lots of interesting comments and updates. Chisamba, it sounds like Kimba did very well, as did your students! I would think it is hard to juggle your own showing with student showing, especially if you are the lone point of support. Susan, I love that you are riding and enjoying your mare. It has been a long haul back to the saddle. And yes, like Demi, I think this counts!! Demi, I hope you have a strategy for healing and see improvement soon.

And to those who routinely share their training process and inspirations, please know that I (and I think most on this board) find them fascinating, valuable and thoughtful. You are providing a rich translation service, in my opinion, from theory/master teaching to lived learning and experience. No, we don't all bow to the same methods/teachers or philosophies, but I appreciate the genuine curiosity that is routinely expressed. I have learned a lot from you and have found inspiration to keep trying to improve even as I am without regular local feedback. That is a huge gift to me.

I observed some challenges in my equestrian vicinity this week that just made me incredibly grateful to 1. be strong enough to ride and do regular training and 2. have a healthy, sound horse. I don't take either of these things for granted.

heddylamar
Herd Member
Posts: 333
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2015 3:04 pm
Location: Maryland

Re: More Leg! More Leg! - May and June Goals

Postby heddylamar » Mon Jun 04, 2018 2:01 pm

piedmontfields wrote:And to those who routinely share their training process and inspirations, please know that I (and I think most on this board) find them fascinating, valuable and thoughtful. You are providing a rich translation service, in my opinion, from theory/master teaching to lived learning and experience. No, we don't all bow to the same methods/teachers or philosophies, but I appreciate the genuine curiosity that is routinely expressed. I have learned a lot from you and have found inspiration to keep trying to improve even as I am without regular local feedback. That is a huge gift to me.


Agreed. I don't share the dressage goals of many here. Rudimentary second level + some third movements are plenty for my eventing needs. My sole goal is to have my horses to be super responsive and move off my leg as expected when asked, whether it be a quick step sideways, or collection to counter nasty footing before/after a jump.

Seeing and reading what everyone else is doing is inspiring, and the different explanations of how to achieve a movement are invaluable. I know I can get the same things from books, youtube, or an instructor, but having a disparate group of voices come together and explain how they achieved X on Jekyll and Hyde horses is far more useful to me than reading the one "correct" way to achieve X. From that collective experience, I can nearly always find a way to solve any training problem I'm experiencing.

khall
500 post plus club
Posts: 763
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 1:47 am

Re: More Leg! More Leg! - May and June Goals

Postby khall » Mon Jun 04, 2018 8:13 pm

As promised a short bit of video today. Rip was feeling a bit tired so we stopped early. Pretty demanding weekend with asking more from the piaffe (2 good steps today in place) and steeper angle in lateral work especially in counter SI. Also asking for medium trot in SI, pushing the Rip's boundaries a bit:)

https://www.facebook.com/keri.hall.35/v ... 114730323/

And my beautiful Joplin showing what a great brain she has!

https://www.facebook.com/keri.hall.35/v ... KE&fref=nf

She is so pretty https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid ... =3&theater

Tsavo
500 post plus club
Posts: 821
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 2:01 am

Re: More Leg! More Leg! - May and June Goals

Postby Tsavo » Mon Jun 04, 2018 8:31 pm

Khall why do you have bell boots on the hinds may I ask?

khall
500 post plus club
Posts: 763
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 1:47 am

Re: More Leg! More Leg! - May and June Goals

Postby khall » Mon Jun 04, 2018 8:40 pm

Tsavo, Rip pulls his back shoes off in the field, I used to pull the boots off before I rode but dang that velcro is difficult to pull off so I quit. His base has narrowed (he stands with hinds under and close together now) and will step on his inside nails/clenches or inside edge of shoe and has pulled more than one off until I put XL bell boots on. He has his plain blue ones on now, he usually wears purple sparkly ones:) Rip started doing this about 2 yrs ago I guess, never had been a problem before.

It dawned on me you were thinking they were possibly weighted, they are not. Davis boots from Smartpak in XL, prefer sparkly ones but went boring this time. He tends to tear the back ones up more frequently than the fronts. Rips the velcro off. BTW the old bell boots make great dog toys. My fosters and my pit puppy love to play with them.
Last edited by khall on Tue Jun 05, 2018 12:49 am, edited 2 times in total.

piedmontfields
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1356
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2015 4:41 pm
Location: E Tennessee USA

Re: More Leg! More Leg! - May and June Goals

Postby piedmontfields » Tue Jun 05, 2018 12:17 am

Joplin is adorable. Rip is super handsome--the kind of horse I call a real hunk. I have to resist saying "Dressage is not about begging" when I watched your clip. :D So I turned off the sound and watched again and enjoyed more!

p.s. Is that a normal carriage of his tail? It looks slightly left? I am watching tails these days due to some experiences with variations in alignment and swing :-)

khall
500 post plus club
Posts: 763
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 1:47 am

Re: More Leg! More Leg! - May and June Goals

Postby khall » Tue Jun 05, 2018 12:47 am

Today was a bit of begging! He was a tired pony. 2 weeks off due to rain before the clinic did not help, then asking for some more difficult lateral work for the big lug wore him out!

I really don't know about his tail, it is so rare for me to get video of he and I. I will have my chiro take a look at him. I do know it is his LH that can be his problem has trouble releasing that hip into the lateral work which is why we were doing steeper counter SI and HI. Good catch.

khall
500 post plus club
Posts: 763
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 1:47 am

Re: More Leg! More Leg! - May and June Goals

Postby khall » Tue Jun 05, 2018 2:56 am

Very interesting last ride today with Cedar and a former Mark student that was a regular at his clinics before his death. Lovely woman who had never been exposed to dressage world and the biomechanics of correct training until Mark,and she fully embraced the work with her adorable Arab (and quite talented at that!). So because of her exposure to Mark she went looking for another horse, a young Iberian horse in particular and found a cute Azteca in S Georgia. She was not very versed in horse shopping and bought this colt with a pretty significant club foot. Had some issues that were addressed medically because of the foot as he got older (he was 10 months old at purchase but she did not know she could have done the check ligament surgery and probably would have helped him) so she has a horse with a grade 1 or 2 club now at 5 which does impact his balance. LF is the club, is maintained with trimming, no shoes because he pulls them and wears boots to ride. He is VERY heavy/weighted on the LF, bent to the right. LH does not flex as easily.

Owner has not done any "dressage" work, just been riding and exposing him to stuff (cows/trails) but realizes he really needs this work to help balance him. It was interesting to watch him as he first learned to release his neck out and down in hand just off the halter, then Cedar asking him to shift his weight more to the outside RF so he could bend L a bit and be in better balance, a bit of SF work on both straight and bending lines. VERY basic work, but goes to that thought of forelegs being weighted and shifting the weight from one foreleg to another to help facilitate the bend. All horses have a shoulder they will be more inclined to put weight into or fall out of, some will fall out both on occasion (Rip was known to do so) but still usually have a more weighted shoulder. My filly wants to fall out the left shoulder but is actually pretty well balanced. I've early on worked on her being able to shift her shoulders and move her HQs when asked. Mark ALWAYS started with asking the inside shoulder to step away in starting the lateral work, targeting the inside elbow to ask the horse to tuck that elbow into their sides and engaging the sling just a bit with that movement. Cedar was doing the exact same thing with the Azteca today, to shift that weight from LF to RF so he could bend left some and drift a bit out into SF position and step that inside hind under center line.

Tsavo
500 post plus club
Posts: 821
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 2:01 am

Re: More Leg! More Leg! - May and June Goals

Postby Tsavo » Tue Jun 05, 2018 12:25 pm

khall wrote:It dawned on me you were thinking they were possibly weighted, they are not.


No actually I have never heard of weighted bell boots. I assume that is a TWH/SS thing. TWH/SS is a true hostage crisis.

khall
500 post plus club
Posts: 763
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 1:47 am

Re: More Leg! More Leg! - May and June Goals

Postby khall » Tue Jun 05, 2018 1:09 pm

Weighted bell boots and snappies (bungie type cords have been used in dressage land as well, borrowed from the park type and saddle seat world). I think it was exvet with her FEI horse that was told to use them on him by an instructor, she declined.

Sue B
500 post plus club
Posts: 558
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 2:55 pm
Location: Spud country (Idaho)

Re: More Leg! More Leg! - May and June Goals

Postby Sue B » Tue Jun 05, 2018 4:36 pm

Dresseur, i too have been frustrated by some who seem more intent on arguing than discussing, and even stepped away for a bit. I enjoy your posts and your thoughts and hope you continue to share them. lately my tactic has been to try to clarify once and then stop engaging, allowing folks to reach their own conclusions.

That being said, I got a few rides in this past week. 8-) As promised, I finally got a couple pictures of me riding Tio in my new saddle, including proof of canter. :P Ds wouldn't hang around and snap some of Rudy, so y'all will just have to believe he's wonderful.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-csDKMs7M410/WxbKru1M65I/AAAAAAAAGCw/mKj1XtWIJcoxHUpwHVHmDVefCWemx8sRQCJoC/w530-h715-n-rw/20180602_154107.jpg

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-csDKMs7M410/WxbKru1M65I/AAAAAAAAGCw/mKj1XtWIJcoxHUpwHVHmDVefCWemx8sRQCJoC/w530-h715-n-rw/20180602_154107.jpg
Last edited by Sue B on Tue Jun 05, 2018 5:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.


Return to “Dressage Training”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 9 guests