Musings on horse type and lateral work - video added

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Re: Musings on horse type and lateral work - video added

Postby Ponichiwa » Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:21 pm

khall wrote:Question I am pondering right now, could this have been prevented earlier on? Rosie this is aimed at me and I will start another post about this topic.


I don't think that you can prevent a horse's natural tendencies w.r.t. movement. You meet them where they are and you work to improve them. You work with the slower-footed horses to add self-propulsion and you work with the speed demons to install lower gears.

My horse has the opposite tendency of the above. When the work gets tougher, the trot tends to get quicker. When we're well within her comfort zone of work, and we're doing things she knows how to do in a balance she's strong enough to maintain, I can really drop the tempo and add expression. However, if I up the ante for balance (or angle in lateral work, or whatever), her first reaction is to compensate for the increased difficulty by adding more steps. MORE STEPS. ALL THE STEPS. I know it, so when I introduce new or harder things I watch the tempo to make sure we're not experiencing tempo creep.

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Re: Musings on horse type and lateral work - video added

Postby Rosie B » Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:14 am

I agree with ponichiwa - you can't change their natural tendencies, but you can train them to get better.

I think I would be MUCH further ahead if I had started off lunging him the way I am now, with side reins short enough to be effective, and REALLY emphasizing that he MUST go when asked. We'd be light years ahead I think. So that was a mistake I made in the beginning. In my defense, the only person I had who could help me was a western trainer with tons of experience breaking horses but not a ton of experience making a dressage horse. She cautioned me heavily against side reins and so I never had them short enough to be effective.

Oh well - lesson learned for the next horse. I'm super pleased with the path we're on now, so onward and upward!

And the lunging is DEFINITELY helping. I rode for 35 minutes tonight (after lunging for 8) and again it was an amazing ride.

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Re: Musings on horse type and lateral work - video added

Postby Tsavo » Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:25 am

It's a long road. Don't beat yourself up.

I had the opportunity to observe and ask questions in real time of a GP trainer several days a week for three years. I saw what she did and how it worked. I learned as much in that auditing as in my lessons.

I have also seen things that didn't work but other trainers. These people were not FEI level. It is really so important to observe and work with people who have track records of correct results. I wasted many years working with people who did not get results with anyone including me. What a waste. I will never work with someone who doesn't have a track record of advancing students and horses ever again.

There is not one right way. But you have to avoid wrong ways. That GP trainer and other successful FEI trainers use side reins to accomplish correct results. If they can do it so can you. Don't doubt yourself.

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Re: Musings on horse type and lateral work - video added

Postby Sue B » Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:56 pm

All I have to add is...thank you for sharing your videos, I love to watch you and Bliss work, and yes, Bliss needs more activity/energy behind which will come as you build his strength.

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Re: Musings on horse type and lateral work - video added

Postby Chisamba » Sun Jun 24, 2018 2:10 pm

Rosie B wrote:I agree with ponichiwa - you can't change their natural tendencies, but you can train them to get better.

I think I would be MUCH further ahead if I had started off lunging him the way I am now, with side reins short enough to be effective, and REALLY emphasizing that he MUST go when asked. We'd be light years ahead I think. So that was a mistake I made in the beginning. In my defense, the only person I had who could help me was a western trainer with tons of experience breaking horses but not a ton of experience making a dressage horse. She cautioned me heavily against side reins and so I never had them short enough to be effective.

Oh well - lesson learned for the next horse. I'm super pleased with the path we're on now, so onward and upward!

And the lunging is DEFINITELY helping. I rode for 35 minutes tonight (after lunging for 8) and again it was an amazing ride.


i have had a long standing disagreement with the anti side rein contingent. I really believe they have a use, i think they really help the horse to learn some things without the weight of the rider. Now, short enough, not too short, not too long, its a skill to use side reins correctly, but they can actually be used correctly.

wishing you well, onward and upward

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Re: Musings on horse type and lateral work - video added

Postby musical comedy » Sun Jun 24, 2018 2:37 pm

Sue B wrote: Bliss needs more activity/energy behind which will come as you build his strength.
Is lack of strength usually the reason for horses that are lacking energy/activity behind? If that is the case, then all young just-started horses would be slow behind, and I don't think that is the case.

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Re: Musings on horse type and lateral work - video added

Postby Tsavo » Sun Jun 24, 2018 3:04 pm

Chisamba wrote:i have had a long standing disagreement with the anti side rein contingent.


Are there any known quantity successful FEI trainers who are anti-side rein? That's the only thing that would matter in this argument. Then we can examine their reasons and track record and maybe learn something about their argument.

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Re: Musings on horse type and lateral work - video added

Postby musical comedy » Sun Jun 24, 2018 3:11 pm

Tsavo wrote:Are there any known quantity successful FEI trainers who are anti-side rein? That's the only thing that would matter in this argument. Then we can examine their reasons and track record and maybe learn something about their argument.
It depends on whether you would consider P. Karl a successful FEI trainer. Légèreté condemns the use of artificial and unnecessary training tools such as draw reins, side reins and tight nose bands.

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Re: Musings on horse type and lateral work - video added

Postby Tsavo » Sun Jun 24, 2018 3:17 pm

1. Does Cadre Noir use side reins?

2. Did PK use side reins at Cadre Noir?

3. Did PK get to a state of excellence in training by standing on the shoulders of what he learned using side reins?

4. Are normal people without his ability capable of training to the levels he can train without side reins?

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Re: Musings on horse type and lateral work - video added

Postby Tsavo » Sun Jun 24, 2018 3:21 pm

""All the schools (Spanish Riding School, Cadre Noir) say they want to be classical, but they want to continue using side reins and tight nosebands." - PK

Okay when did PK have his epiphany? It must have been after he left Cadre Noir with all his expertise some of which might have been gained by using side reins. Who knows.

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Re: Musings on horse type and lateral work - video added

Postby musical comedy » Sun Jun 24, 2018 3:25 pm

Tsavo wrote:Okay when did PK have his epiphany? It must have been after he left Cadre Noir with all his expertise some of which might have been gained by using side reins. Who knows.
In my opinion, he went off his rocker. I like nothing about him or his system, so I'll bow out of discussion of him.

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Re: Musings on horse type and lateral work - video added

Postby Tsavo » Sun Jun 24, 2018 3:35 pm

I saw a video of him and I thought there are few with better balance on a horse. Some as good but few better.

I am only very generally familiar with his system. I don't think it is walk-halt-walk-halt-P&P like Racinet/BSM but I wonder how far students get in system that may require PK's exquisite balance, tact and timing. I just don't know.

I don't think he is claiming to be doing BSM is he?

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Re: Musings on horse type and lateral work - video added

Postby Tsavo » Sun Jun 24, 2018 3:48 pm

As far as I can tell, if PK is using most of the Cadre Noir approach (minus gadgets), he is doing a synthesis of the Versailles school and Baucher and hopefully including SI which Baucher did not use. I think there is universal agreement that SI is key to everything.

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Re: Musings on horse type and lateral work - video added

Postby Abby Kogler » Sun Jun 24, 2018 3:55 pm

Tsavo.

As people become more informed, their practices can/will change as a result of their experiences and information. Some people like to continue to study and be open to things that may work better or approach a problem differently.

If the worlds knowledge were based on your standard, one that I have seen you espouse over and over again, one could ask

'When you Dr. Sane stop bleeding his patients?"

etc etc.

Or how about

"Who first felt the wheel was an improvement? People have dragged or carried things for ever...'

Its fine to disagree with Pk or any trainer you don't like or a method you don't see the value of. But at least just do it honestly, with some information and study on your own, without the endless really ridiculous queries that accomplish nothing.

I started to question the use of side reins and draw reins a long time ago, way before I knew PK. I had them all, yes I am quite good and experienced and know how to use them thank you, and I used them all with what would have been considered great success (although since I did Not Climb the FEI Ladder it will mean nothing to you). But I also started getting deeper and deeper in to physiology and movement and had access to cadavers and remember I have been in three states and in some big barns with world class riders and trainers, so I take your areas as relatively provincial, sorry. And I started to feel that confining the head while training particularly a young or rehab horse was not only not helpful but deleterious. Time and additional study and experience has only confirmed my view.

I think that there are better ways to accomplish with people are trying to accomplish with side and draw reins. I am sure, though I have not met him personally) that PK could explain exactly when and why he started to feel that they were not useful. You *could* buy Twisted Truths, and read for *yourself* about his path.

Back to the topic of the thread:

The horses in our Pk clinics are of varied type and background. They have all changed dramatically in their posture and carriage. We don't do leg yield but we do all school movements. But we don't do them until/unless we are in the posture of collection. That just makes so much sense to me, after doing ballet, after watching Jurgen be a black belt, and his tennis lessons, and my own training as a classical pianist. Practice in the position to which you are working to achieve. When you have achieved it, proceed. If you lose it, go back.

I don't see why you have such an issue with people trying or succeeding with a different way to do things.

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Re: Musings on horse type and lateral work - video added

Postby Abby Kogler » Sun Jun 24, 2018 3:56 pm

Tsavo wrote:I saw a video of him and I thought there are few with better balance on a horse. Some as good but few better.

I am only very generally familiar with his system. I don't think it is walk-halt-walk-halt-P&P like Racinet/BSM but I wonder how far students get in system that may require PK's exquisite balance, tact and timing. I just don't know.

I don't think he is claiming to be doing BSM is he?


You could buy Racinet and Karl and Baucher books and FIND OUT FOR YOURSELF.

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Re: Musings on horse type and lateral work - video added

Postby khall » Sun Jun 24, 2018 4:00 pm

Only the most recent video of PK on the black horse do I like what I see of him, but he does have lots of followers.

Some other trainers who do not use and condemn the use of SRs (but most don't show so that may not fit your criteria tsavo): Karen Rohlf (I am sure she probably used them when she was mainstream dressage, but since combining NH and dressage a definite no), Anja Beran (who is my favorite trainer of any I've listed, her trainer Manuel Jorge de Olivera worked with NO), Manola Mendez (not one of my favorites but his system is kind to horses for sure, known for piaffe/passage) Magali Delgado (of Gallop to Freedom and Cavalia fame) she does show FEI also love her and her husband's work. The Straightness Training do not use SRs nor snaffles, just caveson and caveson with curb. Jillian Kreinbring famous for her biomechanics knowledge.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont ... cEkw22vJDs some nice work shown here IMO.

I am in the camp of no SRs, I have used them in the past but not for many years now. I just don't see the need for them anymore with the work that I do that I learned from Mark. There were on occasions where Mark would suggest just an outside SR to keep Rip from bulging out the outside shoulder, I would try it and just not like what it did for him so would discontinue.

The in hand work I saw from Arthur Kottas IMO was not horse friendly nor useful. Trying to do SI with the caveson and SRs was not very easy. The in hand work I learned from Mark is way more horse friendly and can do so much more work with the horse than the in hand work we saw from AK.

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Re: Musings on horse type and lateral work - video added

Postby Tsavo » Sun Jun 24, 2018 4:32 pm

khall wrote:Only the most recent video of PK on the black horse do I like what I see of him, but he does have lots of followers.


That may have been the video I saw. Just exquisite.

Some other trainers who do not use and condemn the use of SRs (but most don't show so that may not fit your criteria tsavo):


No that fits my criteria... correct training. Showing is not relevant to my argument.

Karen Rohlf (I am sure she probably used them when she was mainstream dressage, but since combining NH and dressage a definite no), Anja Beran (who is my favorite trainer of any I've listed, her trainer Manuel Jorge de Olivera worked with NO), Manola Mendez (not one of my favorites but his system is kind to horses for sure, known for piaffe/passage) Magali Delgado (of Gallop to Freedom and Cavalia fame) she does show FEI also love her and her husband's work. The Straightness Training do not use SRs nor snaffles, just caveson and caveson with curb. Jillian Kreinbring famous for her biomechanics knowledge.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont ... cEkw22vJDs some nice work shown here IMO.


Okay there are known quantities in that list who don't use side reins though I think it might be relevant if they learned with side reins.

I am in the camp of no SRs, I have used them in the past but not for many years now. I just don't see the need for them anymore with the work that I do that I learned from Mark. There were on occasions where Mark would suggest just an outside SR to keep Rip from bulging out the outside shoulder, I would try it and just not like what it did for him so would discontinue.


There are people who use them to very good effect. That is not an argument that they are needed but it is an argument that they can be used to good effect.

The in hand work I saw from Arthur Kottas IMO was not horse friendly nor useful. Trying to do SI with the caveson and SRs was not very easy. The in hand work I learned from Mark is way more horse friendly and can do so much more work with the horse than the in hand work we saw from AK.


Well at least he was using SI. I certainly hope PK does but I am not clear on that point.

I wonder if Graf, Hester, etc. use side reins. There is also another Iberian dressage rider who is just exquisite and I can't remember his name. He also does jumping at the highest level. He is amazing. I wonder if he uses side reins.

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Re: Musings on horse type and lateral work - video added

Postby musical comedy » Sun Jun 24, 2018 4:49 pm

Tsavo wrote:
khall wrote:Only the most recent video of PK on the black horse do I like what I see of him, but he does have lots of followers.


That may have been the video I saw. Just exquisite.
What video would that be? Have you ever seen him sit a medium or extended trot? I have not.

Abby Kogler wrote:Its fine to disagree with Pk or any trainer you don't like or a method you don't see the value of. But at least just do it honestly, with some information and study on your own, without the endless really ridiculous queries that accomplish nothing.


What information does someone need when we have eyes to see? When I look at this demonstation, which includes probably his better students, it's pretty bad. It reminds me a bit of those Lip demos they used to have in USA. Just a bunch of sloppy tricks. All he and his group want to do is piaffe and passage. Worse yet, is I think we all agree that horses should be calm and relaxed. Take a look at PKarl's horse near the end (20 min mark or so). He can't even stand still; he's all over the place tense. Don't tell me it's the music, because our top intl. horses have to put up with way more crowds and music.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZimbNKyKLVw

Then there is this 2016 video. Look at his hands! They are all over the place and wide, including a wide outside rein. Pause and watch his legs jut forward. Look at the crooked flying change. He's just sloppy. Yes, he can get the good piaffe/passage steps. Big Deal. There is a lot more to riding than doing that imo.

https://ru-clip.com/video/tvHpxLuVKR4/p ... -2016.html

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Re: Musings on horse type and lateral work - video added

Postby Tsavo » Sun Jun 24, 2018 5:00 pm

MC, I don't remember which video I saw but after reading your post, it must have been a while ago.

Further it sounds like he is going down the Racinet road of teaching tricks instead of actual sequential training. That's where the money is I guess.

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Re: Musings on horse type and lateral work - video added

Postby Tsavo » Sun Jun 24, 2018 5:05 pm

Okay I watched the 2016 video. I am going to say the stuff with his hands is completely superfluous. He gives me the impression he is literally doing EVERYTHING from his seat. That really appeals to me and I think reveals perfect balance. If true there is NFW many(any?) of his students will be able to emulate him.

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Re: Musings on horse type and lateral work - video added

Postby musical comedy » Sun Jun 24, 2018 5:12 pm

Tsavo wrote:Okay I watched the 2016 video. I am going to say the stuff with his hands is completely superfluous. He gives me he impression he is literally doing EVERYTHING from his seat. That really appeals to me and I think reveals perfect balance. If true there is NFW many(any?) of his students will be able to emulate him.
Doing "everything" from his seat. LOL, he's not doing much except for cantering around a ring. He's not stringing together various movements correctly. As I said, the crooked flying change, using legs forward in a downward transition. Why does he need to use a double bridle then? If you like that, than go for that system. Watch the other video.

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Re: Musings on horse type and lateral work - video added

Postby Tsavo » Sun Jun 24, 2018 5:17 pm

musical comedy wrote:
Tsavo wrote:Okay I watched the 2016 video. I am going to say the stuff with his hands is completely superfluous. He gives me he impression he is literally doing EVERYTHING from his seat. That really appeals to me and I think reveals perfect balance. If true there is NFW many(any?) of his students will be able to emulate him.
Doing "everything" from his seat. LOL, he's not doing much except for cantering around a ring. He's not stringing together various movements correctly. As I said, the crooked flying change, using legs forward in a downward transition. Why does he need to use a double bridle then? If you like that, than go for that system. Watch the other video.


Well I am not going to disagree with your particular points. He may do something with his hands if he were to do more than canter around and and do a FC.

I like his seat and balance though I do want to see him do more to comment further.

I will watch the other video...

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Re: Musings on horse type and lateral work - video added

Postby Tsavo » Sun Jun 24, 2018 5:27 pm

I had to jump around in that 2014 video due to lack of patience but I see he is using the reins in that. My other thought is his horse looked like it was taking some uneven steps early on.

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Re: Musings on horse type and lateral work - video added

Postby Chisamba » Sun Jun 24, 2018 11:40 pm

Omg, I knew one word about side reins would bring on this sort of reparte.

Just a comment or two.
Side reins are not draw reins.
Even draw reins can be used correctly.
And I have seen two separate artists from the school of legrete, slam the bit backwards in the horses mouth one hand on each rein, while standing in front of it, run the horse back, and kick it in the chest. The only thing this demonstrated to me was simple. Anything can be done badly or done well. We try to learn to do well and keep being better. Or we should.

I know of multiple horses that have been rehabilitated from very painful kissing spines using longing in side reins. I've seen radiological evidence of their progress.

I have also seen horses benefit from , let's just say, legrete.

But I've seen adverse effects of both methods as well. Little old me.

I bought a poor horse right after the fire. Its owner had been told that the horse was blocked by conventional riding methods and could be rescued by use of legrete. I have never seen harsher bits in a horses mouth. A double bridle but omg the mouthpieces. However the horse was not actually being blocked by longing in sidereins . Poor thing had severe advanced irriversible PSSM.

my point? Maybe if the fucking legrete trainer had looked for a reason beyond their blind apathy for conventional method, the horse would have suffered less. I have heard from Abby that she has seen examples of the opposite being true.

There are times when longing in side reins can be very helpful.

There are times when taking off sidereins and working a horse up and open can be helpful.

I suppose there may even be moments when low down and round, aka, the dreaded rolkur, when used briefly, could be useful.

By useful I mean not unkind and ultimately beneficial to the horse.

Now l guess I can make popcorn and enjoy the side show, or just abandon this thread too.

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Re: Musings on horse type and lateral work - video added

Postby Chisamba » Sun Jun 24, 2018 11:49 pm

MC, thanks for the video links.

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Re: Musings on horse type and lateral work - video added

Postby Chisamba » Sun Jun 24, 2018 11:54 pm

Abby Kogler wrote:Tsavo.


'When you Dr. Sane stop bleeding his patients?"

.


This is a hilarious choice of argument. Modern medicine has discovered bleeding, leeches, and maggots are succeeding where new methods have failed. Its all in how and when they are used.

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Re: Musings on horse type and lateral work - video added

Postby demi » Sun Jun 24, 2018 11:55 pm

Popcorn! Good idea

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Re: Musings on horse type and lateral work - video added

Postby Tsavo » Mon Jun 25, 2018 12:07 am

I think it comes down to choices. The more bone fide expertise a person has, the more things that can do with certain gadgets and the less they need certain gadgets. It is probably the people who can use side reins and such to great effect are also the people who can train without them. It is a choice that they make for each horse. Less skilled people have less choices.

When people like PK choose something for themselves, it is not because it is their only choice. But they are teaching people who don't have that range of choices and he has to pick something where they can succeed. And he has to especially pick something that protects the client horses. That is reason enough to eschew gadgets among his clients. It doesn't mean he can't train a horse many different ways. PK certainly trained horses with side reins at the Cadre Noir and probably can still do that in his sleep.

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Re: Musings on horse type and lateral work - video added

Postby Abby Kogler » Mon Jun 25, 2018 12:57 am

Chisamba,

I intentionally said 'bleeding'. Not leeches. I am well aware of the medical use of leeches. I am unaware of any current preference for the ancient practice of bloodletting to release the humours.

I am also well aware that there are French Classical trainers who are brutes to the point of cruelty. I do not know of any actual Legerete trainer who is cruel. I know some people who *think* they are Legerete people but they are not approved by the school.

I do not use side reins or draw reins. I think they are unnecessary and that better results can be achieved without them. I also don't lunge on the circle. Do I think that everyone who uses them is an idiot, cruel, backward? No. Do I think that every time they are used they are harmful? No, not really. Have I seen more horses harmed by side reins and draw reins than helped? Yes. Do I need to apologize for having come to this conclusion over my 50 count them 50 years in the industry? No.

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Re: Musings on horse type and lateral work - video added

Postby Rosie B » Mon Jun 25, 2018 2:21 am

If y’all would like to continue your debate over side reins, legerete, and blood letting, I encourage you to do that over on a new thread of your own creation. :mrgreen:

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Re: Musings on horse type and lateral work - video added

Postby Tsavo » Mon Jun 25, 2018 10:36 am

Sorry about that, Rosie.

Ultimately, if side reins are good enough for the Cadre Noir then there is probably no reason for you to use them if they can help. Please let us know if you have any epiphanies when you use them. LOL


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