Susanne von Dietz Educational Event in Landrum SC

A forum for discussion of training in dressage
piedmontfields
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 2735
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2015 4:41 pm
Location: E Tennessee USA

Susanne von Dietz Educational Event in Landrum SC

Postby piedmontfields » Sun Jun 17, 2018 11:34 am

FYI, Susanne von Dietz is teaching at JJ Tate's farm in Landrum SC this coming Tuesday-Wednesday. Most rides will be JJ, but auditors get to watch and learn! I will be there. I've always found Susanne's books really interesting and helpful and have heard great feedback about her teaching in person.

To register, go to https://www.facebook.com/TeamTateDressage/
Auditing is $40/day and includes lunch.

Tsavo
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1527
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 2:01 am

Re: Susanne von Dietz Educational Event in Landrum SC

Postby Tsavo » Sun Jun 17, 2018 11:43 am

SvD stated posting trot is technically hard and relatively few people do it correctly. I love her for that statement alone. I guess posting isn't intuitive. LOL

The only thing better than that statement is Wanless claiming elite riders are doing something even though they may claim they are not. Double LOL.

piedmontfields
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 2735
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2015 4:41 pm
Location: E Tennessee USA

Re: Susanne von Dietz Educational Event in Landrum SC

Postby piedmontfields » Sun Jun 17, 2018 11:46 am

You should go! Getting to watch JJ make adjustments in herself is like a master class in itself---and then we'll have Susanne to translate.

p.s. I think correct posting trot is incredibly hard.

demi
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 2218
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 7:02 pm
Location: Texas

Re: Susanne von Dietz Educational Event in Landrum SC

Postby demi » Sun Jun 17, 2018 11:56 am

I just googled Susanne von Dietze because I had never heard of her before. The first thing I clicked on was a book by her on balanced riding and there was an illlustration of a skeleton on a horse in a dressage saddle!! Since I have recently had my first experiences with physiotherapy I have been thinking a lot about my skeleton and seeing the skeletons at the PT facility made we want to borrow one to take home and put it on my saddle. Of course, I realize that to really get a good idea of what’s going on with my own riding, I’d need a replicate of my own skeleton :shock:....but pictures and explanations in a book are the next best thing! I can’t wait to get the book.

User avatar
musical comedy
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1302
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 3:41 pm
Location: New Jersey

Re: Susanne von Dietz Educational Event in Landrum SC

Postby musical comedy » Sun Jun 17, 2018 12:39 pm

demi wrote:I just googled Susanne von Dietze because I had never heard of her before.
You must not subscribe to Dressage Today magazine, because she does a piece on analyzing rider photos. I have her book "Rider and Horse - Back to Back" I think she has written several. I have only skimmed through it, as I do most books I own. I am just not a reader unless I can easily get at the meat of the subject. Too many words and complicated stuff, and I'm out. Interesting that Tate requires so many adjustments. That's encouraging for us...not. I can't sit still for long, so auditing clinics is something I don't do. I can't even sit through a ride on Dressage Training On Line. At this point in my life, it's a little late to be messing much with my position. That's how I ended up with a groin injury.

demi
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 2218
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 7:02 pm
Location: Texas

Re: Susanne von Dietz Educational Event in Landrum SC

Postby demi » Sun Jun 17, 2018 1:26 pm

musical comedy wrote:
demi wrote:I just googled Susanne von Dietze because I had never heard of her before.
...You must not subscribe to Dressage Today magazine, because she does a piece on analyzing rider photos. ...


You’re right. I used to get “Dressage and CT” many years ago but didn’t like it after it became “Dressage Today”. I do get USDF connection but only because its free with membership. I miss a lot by not subscribing to “Dressage Today” and maybe I should subscribe. I just have a negative view of modern competitive dressage, and I get put off by seeing the magazine covers of top dressage horses that look like saddle seat horses. I need to get over myself...

DISCLAIMER: It is only the general direction of competive dressage that I don’t like. There are many pros and amateurs that compete and the do a really nice job of it. I respect and admire them. In fact, I still belong to the various competition organizations because I would some day like to show my own horse.

P.S. I got my current injury from trying to correct my body. I just didn’t do it right. I had to experiment with training my own body, then working with a personal trainer, (neither approach was working well) and then finally getting an injury that made my PC physician send me to a physiotherapist. What an eye opener.
Last edited by demi on Sun Jun 17, 2018 1:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
musical comedy
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1302
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 3:41 pm
Location: New Jersey

Re: Susanne von Dietz Educational Event in Landrum SC

Postby musical comedy » Sun Jun 17, 2018 1:31 pm

demi wrote:You’re right. I used to get “Dressage and CT” many years ago but didn’t like it after it became “Dressage Today”. I do get USDF connection but only because its free with membership. I miss a lot by not subscribing to “Dressage Today” and maybe I should subscribe. I just have a negative view of modern competitive dressage, and I get put off by seeing the magazine covers of top dressage horses that look like saddle seat horses. I need to get over myself...
Don't waste your money on Dressage Today. The only reason I get it is because a friend buys me a subscription for a Christmas present. I can't tell her that I don't like the mag. I skim through it, and usually read the VonDeitz article. I don't belong to USDF anymore since I stopped showing so I don't get The Connection. Doesn't it have the same type of show photos as Dressage Today?

Actually though, there is a good Hinneman article in a recent issue that I keep meaning to post about. I just need time to extract the pieces I want to discuss. I never seem to have the inclination to take the time to do it. He says some interesting things; one of which I never heard before.

Tsavo
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1527
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 2:01 am

Re: Susanne von Dietz Educational Event in Landrum SC

Postby Tsavo » Sun Jun 17, 2018 3:02 pm

piedmontfields wrote:p.s. I think correct posting trot is incredibly hard.


If you approached 100 riders on a showground and informed them that most people there were posting incorrectly, they would look at you like you had two heads.

User avatar
Rosie B
500 post plus club
Posts: 641
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 11:38 pm

Re: Susanne von Dietz Educational Event in Landrum SC

Postby Rosie B » Sun Jun 17, 2018 4:08 pm

Of course they would.

Because if you actually did that you’d be behaving like a complete a$$.

Tsavo
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1527
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 2:01 am

Re: Susanne von Dietz Educational Event in Landrum SC

Postby Tsavo » Sun Jun 17, 2018 4:52 pm

Why is that bad behavior? It either is or isn't true. SvD seems to think it is true.

kande50
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1781
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 7:28 pm
Location: Williamstown, MA

Re: Susanne von Dietz Educational Event in Landrum SC

Postby kande50 » Sun Jun 17, 2018 5:26 pm

Tsavo wrote:Why is that bad be
havior? It either is or isn't true. SvD seems to think it is true.


Some seem to think that if anyone comments on the possibility that they might be doing something wrong, that makes the informer an ass. You'd think they'd be grateful, but ego protection comes first, and then possibly some enlightenment.

I think it could (maybe?) be said in a casual, or complimentary enough way to avoid the defensive reaction. :-)

Tsavo
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1527
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 2:01 am

Re: Susanne von Dietz Educational Event in Landrum SC

Postby Tsavo » Sun Jun 17, 2018 5:46 pm

I wonder if people think SvD is an ass for writing it.

User avatar
Rosie B
500 post plus club
Posts: 641
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 11:38 pm

Re: Susanne von Dietz Educational Event in Landrum SC

Postby Rosie B » Sun Jun 17, 2018 6:12 pm

If by “people” you mean me, then no I don’t think she’s an ass for writing it.

User avatar
musical comedy
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1302
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 3:41 pm
Location: New Jersey

Re: Susanne von Dietz Educational Event in Landrum SC

Postby musical comedy » Sun Jun 17, 2018 6:34 pm

How is all this improper posting detrimental to the horse or to progressing? I post the trot as little as possible and I am one that admits I post poorly. Which...is one reason I don't do it much except to warm up and cool down. I don't think my crappy posting has affected my progression. Plenty of other things trump that.

Tsavo
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1527
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 2:01 am

Re: Susanne von Dietz Educational Event in Landrum SC

Postby Tsavo » Sun Jun 17, 2018 6:36 pm

I wasn't suggesting some random person just telling people most people are not posting incorrectly. I was suggesting a random person quoting SvD to 100 people and what their reaction would likely be. That was unclear.

Tsavo
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1527
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 2:01 am

Re: Susanne von Dietz Educational Event in Landrum SC

Postby Tsavo » Sun Jun 17, 2018 6:38 pm

musical comedy wrote:How is all this improper posting detrimental to the horse or to progressing? I post the trot as little as possible and I am one that admits I post poorly. Which...is one reason I don't do it much except to warm up and cool down. I don't think my crappy posting has affected my progression. Plenty of other things trump that.


I am just saying if you ask 100 random people at a show if they knew that posting correctly was about as hard to do as sitting the trot correctly, they would probably reject that claim.

Tsavo
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1527
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 2:01 am

Re: Susanne von Dietz Educational Event in Landrum SC

Postby Tsavo » Sun Jun 17, 2018 6:42 pm

I heard or read recently that posting (quality not specified) can be shown to induce a lameness/uneveness just in the normal course of events perhaps similar to a rein lameness. If that is true then I wonder if that is due to most people doing it incorrectly or if the very nature of it conduces to that.

User avatar
musical comedy
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1302
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 3:41 pm
Location: New Jersey

Re: Susanne von Dietz Educational Event in Landrum SC

Postby musical comedy » Sun Jun 17, 2018 6:59 pm

Tsavo wrote:I heard or read recently that posting (quality not specified) can be shown to induce a lameness/uneveness just in the normal course of events perhaps similar to a rein lameness. If that is true then I wonder if that is due to most people doing it incorrectly or if the very nature of it conduces to that.
I can see where it could. I have been told that posting can disguise a lameness.

I just went over to Amazon and peeked inside SVD's book on the chapter about posting trot. I did not read where she said most people do it wrong. I read where she said it was difficult (or something to that effect). I don't care for her style of writing; too busy for me.

Anyway, if I read it correctly, she advocates for a slightly foward upper body posting. She goes on to talk about so many things that affect posting, specifically body type. That is my problem. My thigh is freakishly long compared to my lower leg.

She briefly mentions using posting w/o stirrups. There is no way I could ever do that. When I was jumping, one clinician had us drop our irons and go over poles and caveletti. I was dying. I never figured out how much of my problem was my conformation or just lack of understanding and technique. It killed by groin.

galopp
Herd Member
Posts: 250
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2015 12:44 pm

Re: Susanne von Dietz Educational Event in Landrum SC

Postby galopp » Sun Jun 17, 2018 7:01 pm

Suzanne is quite articulate and wonderful for equitation. Her books are quite useful for many readers. (Suzanne is also the cousin of Felicitas von Neumann-Cosel. A very nice trainer who rides/trains all types of horses: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2Jf7Xb ... e=youtu.be )

Posting (height and speed) can affect the tempo and length of stride very easily. Most people try to match the tempo of the horse (esp if it is over tempo) which leads to the horse being more out of balance. Why is it difficult for most riders? They have not spent time on a lunge and w/o stirrups to post low and control the tempo precisely. In short the horse simply pushes the rider up far less high than they take themselves. mho

Tsavo
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1527
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 2:01 am

Re: Susanne von Dietz Educational Event in Landrum SC

Postby Tsavo » Sun Jun 17, 2018 7:30 pm

musical comedy wrote:I just went over to Amazon and peeked inside SVD's book on the chapter about posting trot. I did not read where she said most people do it wrong. I read where she said it was difficult (or something to that effect). I don't care for her style of writing; too busy for me.


I loaned my copy to the barn owner so I can't look it up. That is my recollection.

kande50
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1781
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 7:28 pm
Location: Williamstown, MA

Re: Susanne von Dietz Educational Event in Landrum SC

Postby kande50 » Sun Jun 17, 2018 8:38 pm

musical comedy wrote:
She briefly mentions using posting w/o stirrups. There is no way I could ever do that. When I was jumping, one clinician had us drop our irons and go over poles and caveletti. I was dying. I never figured out how much of my problem was my conformation or just lack of understanding and technique. It killed by groin.


Recently, or many years ago?

I was at a hunter barn for a year back in my youth, and posting without stirrups was what we did. If someone went to a show and died out during the posting without stirrups part of a class then they posted without stirrups in their lessons even more from then on.

Tsavo
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1527
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 2:01 am

Re: Susanne von Dietz Educational Event in Landrum SC

Postby Tsavo » Sun Jun 17, 2018 8:51 pm

One of my instructors did not ask her students to drop their stirrups because it encouraged clamping with the knee.

User avatar
musical comedy
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1302
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 3:41 pm
Location: New Jersey

Re: Susanne von Dietz Educational Event in Landrum SC

Postby musical comedy » Sun Jun 17, 2018 9:03 pm

kande50 wrote:
musical comedy wrote:
She briefly mentions using posting w/o stirrups. There is no way I could ever do that. When I was jumping, one clinician had us drop our irons and go over poles and caveletti. I was dying. I never figured out how much of my problem was my conformation or just lack of understanding and technique. It killed by groin.


Recently, or many years ago?

I was at a hunter barn for a year back in my youth, and posting without stirrups was what we did. If someone went to a show and died out during the posting without stirrups part of a class then they posted without stirrups in their lessons even more from then on.
No, 20 or more years ago. I can canter and sit the trot w/o irons just fine. I cannot post w/o them. I'm a broken record here, but it has to do with my conformation. I have a tilted pelvis, a long pelvis, lordosis, and a very long thigh to calf ratio.

kande50
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1781
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 7:28 pm
Location: Williamstown, MA

Re: Susanne von Dietz Educational Event in Landrum SC

Postby kande50 » Sun Jun 17, 2018 9:07 pm

musical comedy wrote: I can canter and sit the trot w/o irons just fine. I cannot post w/o them. I'm a broken record here, but it has to do with my conformation. I have a tilted pelvis, a long pelvis, lordosis, and a very long thigh to calf ratio.


Could you post without stirrups when you were riding hunters? (I think you said you rode hunters at one time.)

piedmontfields
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 2735
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2015 4:41 pm
Location: E Tennessee USA

Re: Susanne von Dietz Educational Event in Landrum SC

Postby piedmontfields » Sun Jun 17, 2018 9:29 pm

musical comedy wrote: Interesting that Tate requires so many adjustments. That's encouraging for us...not. I can't sit still for long, so auditing clinics is something I don't do.


I'll just say that if you ride as well as JJ does before she tries for any further improvement (she is very much that type of trainer/rider---seeking all angles for improvement), more power to you! :D

I like to read and like to audit. Both are very flexible and affordable ways to explore training ideas. And I usually stand for most of the clinics I attend, as my body does enough sitting already.

User avatar
musical comedy
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1302
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 3:41 pm
Location: New Jersey

Re: Susanne von Dietz Educational Event in Landrum SC

Postby musical comedy » Sun Jun 17, 2018 9:48 pm

piedmontfields wrote:
musical comedy wrote: Interesting that Tate requires so many adjustments. That's encouraging for us...not. I can't sit still for long, so auditing clinics is something I don't do.


I'll just say that if you ride as well as JJ does before she tries for any further improvement (she is very much that type of trainer/rider---seeking all angles for improvement), more power to you! :D
What is that supposed to mean? Did you misinterpret something I wrote. I never said anything about riding well and not needing improvement myself. I just said it's unlikely to happen at my age.

I like to read and like to audit. Both are very flexible and affordable ways to explore training ideas. And I usually stand for most of the clinics I attend, as my body does enough sitting already.
If that floats your boat. Some don't have the luxury of that kind of time. Time in the saddle under instruction is the best way to ride better imo.

Could you post without stirrups when you were riding hunters? (I think you said you rode hunters at one time.)
Kris, that is what I was saying. Yes I rode hunters and eventers up until circa 1994. And yes, hunters stress the riding w/o irons in the 'equitation division'. I did the working hunters and my trainers never required no stirrup riding. I could never post w/o irons from the time I started riding when young.

piedmontfields
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 2735
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2015 4:41 pm
Location: E Tennessee USA

Re: Susanne von Dietz Educational Event in Landrum SC

Postby piedmontfields » Sun Jun 17, 2018 9:53 pm

FYI, here is a little bit about Susanne's background. While she is a very capable rider, her focus has been on biomechanics and especially back health. I have enjoyed both of her books, but I've heard that the DVD Riding in Balance is also very good.

About the clinician:

Susanne earned her Physiotherapy degree at University Goettingen in 1987 and for the next ten years worked actively in the field, focusing on back pain and spinal injuries. She is trained in manual therapy as well as PNF (Proprioceptive Neuromuscular Facilitation). During that time, Susanne also worked as a trainer at the German Academy of Riding, Warendorf and also Mannheimer Reitverein, developing horses, instructing and coaching riders, and working with a children and young riders project for the German Federation. In 1990, Susanne completed her Hippotherapy exam and in 1991 she became the trainer for disabled riders at Warendorf.

Since 2001, Susanne has traveled regularly to Scandinavia to give seminars and clinics for Physiotherapists with experience in Hippotherapy. She continues to give seminars and clinics for the German Academy of Riding in Warendorf as well as travels extensively abroad to Japan, Finland, Hungary, Australia and the USA to give clinics. In 2011, Susanne presented at the USDF Convention in San Diego and most recently in 2014, she presented at the North American Global Dressage Forum. Susanne also has an active column in Dressage Today.

Susanne lives in Israel with her husband and three sons. She has several times earned the title Israel Champion in Dressage and has successfully represented Israel in team competition internationally, such as the FEI dressage Challenge Tour up to Advanced Level.

Tsavo
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1527
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 2:01 am

Re: Susanne von Dietz Educational Event in Landrum SC

Postby Tsavo » Sun Jun 17, 2018 10:11 pm

I love the one book at least that I have and her column critiquing riders is my favorite section of DT.

kande50
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1781
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 7:28 pm
Location: Williamstown, MA

Re: Susanne von Dietz Educational Event in Landrum SC

Postby kande50 » Sun Jun 17, 2018 10:16 pm

musical comedy wrote:Kris, that is what I was saying. Yes I rode hunters and eventers up until circa 1994. And yes, hunters stress the riding w/o irons in the 'equitation division'. I did the working hunters and my trainers never required no stirrup riding. I could never post w/o irons from the time I started riding when young.


Ah, now I get what you were saying.

galopp
Herd Member
Posts: 250
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2015 12:44 pm

Re: Susanne von Dietz Educational Event in Landrum SC

Postby galopp » Mon Jun 18, 2018 12:37 am

Posting trot w/o stirrups should not encourage clamping, it should be the opposite. Overpost (height) and the rider will be exhausted early with very sore muscles, etc. I remember in the days of posting w/o them, two point, jumping, etc that we actually had a contest of posting w/o them around an arena about three times the size of a dressage arena, and the record was always over 60x. By doing so the rider quits any pinching and lets the horse dictate the height and tempo. It all comes from the caprilli school, from the army teachers, and those were the teachers who 'made' riders like Steinkraus, George Morris, Victor Hugo-Videl, Woffords,etc. (Hunter eq/western eq/SS eq/etc in the 60s and 70s.)

Tsavo
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1527
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 2:01 am

Re: Susanne von Dietz Educational Event in Landrum SC

Postby Tsavo » Mon Jun 18, 2018 1:15 am

Do you think it is INTUITIVE that you don't need to clamp your knees in order to post without stirrups?

Just from normal life, how would a person raise their body if they are not bracing off of some surface? Or in the case of riding, how would you control the "throw" of the horse's motion without trying to anchor somewhere?

"Should not encourage". There is a lot in dressage that should not encourage X Y Z but routinely does.

galopp
Herd Member
Posts: 250
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2015 12:44 pm

Re: Susanne von Dietz Educational Event in Landrum SC

Postby galopp » Mon Jun 18, 2018 1:58 am

Initially there may be pinching, but doing it for longer periods of time causes the rider to let the body to go up from the horse's action, rather like an elastic action. The posting then is lower because the tossing up is less than we think when we learn 'up/down' at the beginning. Then the rider learns how to post bigger to get longer strides, or to slow then them and set the tempo rather than follow it (if it is over tempo). Training of the horse follows from equitation aspects imho.

Tsavo
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1527
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 2:01 am

Re: Susanne von Dietz Educational Event in Landrum SC

Postby Tsavo » Mon Jun 18, 2018 2:08 am

Do you think most riders will sit heavier than they should be when posting without stirrups versus with stirrups? Do you think at least some will use pinching with the knees INTUITIVELY to avoid this?

piedmontfields
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 2735
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2015 4:41 pm
Location: E Tennessee USA

Re: Susanne von Dietz Educational Event in Landrum SC

Postby piedmontfields » Mon Jun 18, 2018 11:50 am

I really can't speak for how other people learn. I know I am much less talented naturally as a rider than my husband, though, so many things which are obvious and easy to others took me years. My body proportions (long torso/short legs) are not ideal, either. I am so much worse at riding than I am in many others things in life! :lol:

FWIW, I learned proper posting by posting without stirrups. I was taught to not grip and to let the horse move me. It was and is still a good fix for my posting trot position, in a saddle. I very quickly was able to do this for minutes at a time. I don't think this was an athletic achievement---just guided technique. When I post bareback, I tend to grip more so it is less useful as a position fix.

I'll share my personal reactions and notes from the clinic later this week.

Tsavo
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1527
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 2:01 am

Re: Susanne von Dietz Educational Event in Landrum SC

Postby Tsavo » Mon Jun 18, 2018 12:17 pm

I think part of the problem is that people think they have to post the SAME with and without stirrups. If you explicitly tell people no it is not the same animal and you post much lower and less without stirrups and to ignore their sense of physics that you need to lever up and soften the down in some way, THEN people can get it faster,

But if a person is not told all that, 5 will get you 10 they will pinch the knee.

Tsavo
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1527
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 2:01 am

Re: Susanne von Dietz Educational Event in Landrum SC

Postby Tsavo » Mon Jun 18, 2018 12:19 pm

What would clue a naive rider into thinking that walk and canter are IDENTICAL with and without stirrups but posting trot is different? Unless a person is explicitly told, they will try to do everything the same with and without stirrups thinking that is correct. Yes? No?

Maybe I am the only person confused by such matters. Could be.

demi
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 2218
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 7:02 pm
Location: Texas

Re: Susanne von Dietz Educational Event in Landrum SC

Postby demi » Mon Jun 18, 2018 12:31 pm

I am looking forward to your personal reactions and notes, Piedmontfields! Learning about SvD came about at just the right time for me. After your initial post, I ordered her “Balance in Movement” book (arriving tomorrow!). Then I read some more posts and your post about her background, and I cant believe how this is, quite possibly, just the right information at just the right time. In the last month, I have had moments of thinking that maybe I am just to old to ride anymore, but now I’m thinking I might be riding nicely for a long time to come!

I am so glad you shared this educational event with us! I really appreciate this board and those who contribute.

piedmontfields
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 2735
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2015 4:41 pm
Location: E Tennessee USA

Re: Susanne von Dietz Educational Event in Landrum SC

Postby piedmontfields » Thu Jun 21, 2018 11:33 am

Wow, that was 2 days of intense learning and observation! I feel like I just came back from an in-depth yoga or somatic studies weekend (something I used to do a lot of).

Susanne is an encouraging, detailed clinician with boundless energy and specific attention for each rider-horse. There was a moment that I thought to myself that she is like Mary Wanless if Mary were on steroids! But that isn't really fair. It's just that Susanne was able to very quickly drop layers of information onto pairs, depending on their challenges and readiness. Like Mary, she pays attention to getting the rider's language and using that to deepen learning There were many advanced riders in this clinic, so she was able to layer a lot of detail on both horse and rider biomechanics into each ride. All of the horses and riders improved in each ride, and I would say that the pairs after the improvements looked softer and more effortless.

I will write up notes and share, but the bottom line is that is was clear why a pro might benefit from her eyes on the ground, as she see horses and riders "afresh" and offers very subtle information (think more fascia than muscle) to help riders be in even better balance. As JJ trains/rides a variety of horses at the FEI level, I can see how this feedback is helpful so that she maintains essential balance even on horses that are a less than a perfect fit for her body.

One of my favorite comments from Susanne related to something I've been slowly learning from Jeremy Steinberg. Jeremy says (paraphrasing), Don't ride the feeling. Ride the balance.

Susanne noted Don't ride the feeling. Ride the future! (ride the balance you want) She noted that if you ride from feeling, you are already too late because feelings are history. This doesn't mean that you don't record feelings and reflect on them later, but in the action of riding she consistently emphasized be on or even slightly ahead of the horse's movement, rather than behind the horse's movement. In this approach, balance could be improved rather than chased.

Dresseur
500 post plus club
Posts: 867
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2015 12:16 am

Re: Susanne von Dietz Educational Event in Landrum SC

Postby Dresseur » Thu Jun 21, 2018 12:49 pm

Thank you for sharing, I'm looking forward to your notes! I'm curious about riding the balance vs feeling because to me, that is the feeling (in addition to softness connection etc.) Is there any clarity to what she specifically meant by feeling?

piedmontfields
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 2735
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2015 4:41 pm
Location: E Tennessee USA

Re: Susanne von Dietz Educational Event in Landrum SC

Postby piedmontfields » Thu Jun 21, 2018 12:58 pm

Riding the balance vs riding the feeling. This is a guess, based on my understanding from her and from Jeremy.

When we ride the feeling, we might think, oh, he's a bit stiff on the left, oh he feels too quick (running), etc. and then make adjustments in response to that feeling. When we ride the balance or ride the future, we are creating a place for good balance. We might notice, oh, the horse loses his balance when we increase the bend or decrease the circle size. Then we again can ride toward balance (adjusting for a bit less bend, a bit larger circle) to get the horse back in a balanced place where more can be asked of them.

Dresseur, you might mean the same thing by "balance" and by "feeling", so this might not be insight to you. It might be that you notice a loss of balance and call that a "feeling."

But I know I have definitely gotten lost following and riding to "feelings" before! Jeremy noted that "feeling" directed riders often focus on softness and suppling but never really get their horses moving powerfully in balance. Susanne did not talk about this directly, but her framing reminded me of this point.

BTW, this is a different point than talking about a rider having "feel."

Tsavo
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1527
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 2:01 am

Re: Susanne von Dietz Educational Event in Landrum SC

Postby Tsavo » Thu Jun 21, 2018 1:07 pm

Dresseur wrote:Thank you for sharing, I'm looking forward to your notes! I'm curious about riding the balance vs feeling because to me, that is the feeling (in addition to softness connection etc.) Is there any clarity to what she specifically meant by feeling?


I agree. You can't ride the balance without first feeling where the balance is.

If forced to deconstruct/demystify this comment LOL, I would say she is trying to say instead of feeling that a horse is against your leg or grabbing a rein, try to do SOMETHING ELSE DIFFERENT such that the horse stops coming against your leg or grabbing a rein instead of trying to fix the problem at hand. In other words solve the cause and don't get to a point where the cause is giving you feedback that you then fix.

The obvious next question is how exactly does one ride the balance versus the feel? If forced to surmise her answer I would suggest she is advocating strict adherence to staying in neutral spine and expert use of weight aids and training your horse to follow your balance. My horse will do this (try to stay under my weight, links his shoulders and hips to my shoulders and hips, etc.) but I don't think a horse NOT trained to do that will respond to this "ride the balance" paradigm.

kande50
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1781
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 7:28 pm
Location: Williamstown, MA

Re: Susanne von Dietz Educational Event in Landrum SC

Postby kande50 » Thu Jun 21, 2018 1:11 pm

galopp wrote:Posting trot w/o stirrups should not encourage clamping, it should be the opposite.


I do remember that after taking hunt seat lessons for several years I was very annoyed to finally discover that posting was supposed to be "minimal" rather than exaggerated, and that I'd never been told that. What annoyed me so much about it was that I was physically able to post correctly, but didn't know how it was supposed to be done---which was why I was taking lessons! I still don't know if my instructors didn't know either, or didn't think I could do any better, or didn't think it was important enough to mention?

When I think back, so many of my lessons were nothing more than the instructor standing in the center and running us through exercises rather than making any attempt to explain anything.

piedmontfields
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 2735
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2015 4:41 pm
Location: E Tennessee USA

Re: Susanne von Dietz Educational Event in Landrum SC

Postby piedmontfields » Thu Jun 21, 2018 1:14 pm

Tsavo wrote: I agree. You can't ride the balance without first feeling where the balance is....If forced to deconstruct/demystify this comment LOL, I would say she is trying to say instead of feeling that a horse is against your leg or grabbing a rein, try to do SOMETHING ELSE DIFFERENT such that the horse stops coming against your leg or grabbing a rein instead of trying to fix the problem at hand.


Yes, I think this is what it means. Don't ride/follow the feeling you're getting (if it's problematic). Ride toward the balance/feeling you want!

Tsavo wrote: but I don't think a horse NOT trained to do that will respond to this "ride the balance" paradigm.


Based on observation of 10 horses a day for 2 days, I disagree. They really seemed to! (including quite green horses + re-train projects)

Tsavo
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1527
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 2:01 am

Re: Susanne von Dietz Educational Event in Landrum SC

Postby Tsavo » Thu Jun 21, 2018 1:20 pm

piedmontfields wrote:
Tsavo wrote: but I don't think a horse NOT trained to do that will respond to this "ride the balance" paradigm.


Based on observation of 10 horses a day for 2 days, I disagree. They really seemed to! (including quite green horses + re-train projects)


All the participants were instantly able to "ride the balance" immediately as opposed to what they were doing? In other words they all understood (and perfectly executed!) what SvD was saying but you were there and can only guess?

kande50
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1781
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 7:28 pm
Location: Williamstown, MA

Re: Susanne von Dietz Educational Event in Landrum SC

Postby kande50 » Thu Jun 21, 2018 1:22 pm

piedmontfields wrote: Jeremy noted that "feeling" directed riders often focus on softness and suppling but never really get their horses moving powerfully in balan)ce.


Maybe so, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it's a cause and effect relationship (if one focuses on soft and supple they'll never get to power). In fact, I'd say it's just the opposite, and if one can't get and keep soft and supple then they'll never get soft and supple power, because soft and supple has to come first, and be preserved, because it can't be recovered once the horse has been developed to move powerfully without it.

I think it's why so many get to power so soon, but without the soft and supple that allows the horse to produce it correctly (in a collected posture) so that he doesn't end up damaged.

demi
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 2218
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 7:02 pm
Location: Texas

Re: Susanne von Dietz Educational Event in Landrum SC

Postby demi » Thu Jun 21, 2018 1:30 pm

I started thinking about "riding the feeling" when piedmont first mentioned it in one of her JS posts. I was confused because I believe I do ride the feeling. It used to rile me when some instructors would say "if it feels good you're doing it wrong!" because with a few BNT's, in the middle of a ride (after the BNT had worked us for a while) they would say, sometimes smiling, "how does THAT feel?!", and my answer was always something like "wonderful!". So obviously, I was doing something right and it felt good...

I still ride the feeling but am starting to understand what it means to "ride the future (ride the balance you want)" vs riding the feeling.

This jargon stuff is confusing on one hand, but oth, I learn a lot by trying to figure out what people are talking about.

I got SvD's "Balance in Movement" book Tuesday night!!. I've just had time to skim it and I can tell it is going to answer a lot of questions for me. The illustrations are excellent, especially the "X-ray" drawings that show the body on a horse with the skeleton". And like the parts where she tells you how to palpate your own body to figure out what she's talking about. Oh, and the comparison photos of different body types are going to be really helpful in understanding my own body.

Dresseur
500 post plus club
Posts: 867
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2015 12:16 am

Re: Susanne von Dietz Educational Event in Landrum SC

Postby Dresseur » Thu Jun 21, 2018 1:36 pm

piedmontfields wrote:
Tsavo wrote: I agree. You can't ride the balance without first feeling where the balance is....If forced to deconstruct/demystify this comment LOL, I would say she is trying to say instead of feeling that a horse is against your leg or grabbing a rein, try to do SOMETHING ELSE DIFFERENT such that the horse stops coming against your leg or grabbing a rein instead of trying to fix the problem at hand.


Yes, I think this is what it means. Don't ride/follow the feeling you're getting (if it's problematic). Ride toward the balance/feeling you want!

Tsavo wrote: but I don't think a horse NOT trained to do that will respond to this "ride the balance" paradigm.


Based on observation of 10 horses a day for 2 days, I disagree. They really seemed to! (including quite green horses + re-train projects)


Thank you Piedmont, that makes sense to be!

As far as riding the balance - horses will seek to find balance and will seek to match the rider. That's why posting slower or with more emphasis works. So, sometimes all it takes is the rider making a change (even as simple as looking up) and the horse will change too. It's not always a profound change, but that is also why pro's can get on an ammy's horse and make them look like a million bucks!

piedmontfields
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 2735
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2015 4:41 pm
Location: E Tennessee USA

Re: Susanne von Dietz Educational Event in Landrum SC

Postby piedmontfields » Thu Jun 21, 2018 1:36 pm

Tsavo wrote:
piedmontfields wrote:
Tsavo wrote: but I don't think a horse NOT trained to do that will respond to this "ride the balance" paradigm.


Based on observation of 10 horses a day for 2 days, I disagree. They really seemed to! (including quite green horses + re-train projects)


All the participants were instantly able to "ride the balance" immediately as opposed to what they were doing? In other words they all understood (and perfectly executed!) what SvD was saying but you were there and can only guess?


You are now demonstrating an inability to read! (e.g., Read my first post. Improvements in rider + horse balance and movement quality were observed in all of the pairs with the type of guidance and understanding that was being taught in this clinic. Was this instant? Usually not, but it was pretty rapid (minutes). And riders carried learning from earlier rides to later rides. Overall, the improvements were obvious, and not just to me! (it was a pretty well educated audience--a few modest learners like me, but many with substantial experience)

I'll leave this thread for various wonderings and provide notes in another thread.

Tsavo
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1527
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 2:01 am

Re: Susanne von Dietz Educational Event in Landrum SC

Postby Tsavo » Thu Jun 21, 2018 2:40 pm

You admit you would have to guess exactly what she meant. I don't know what she means. If you had to guess then I suggest at least some of the riders are guessing and don't know what she means either. If they improved it is coincidence if they didn't understand either, yes?

Tsavo
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1527
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 2:01 am

Re: Susanne von Dietz Educational Event in Landrum SC

Postby Tsavo » Thu Jun 21, 2018 3:21 pm

I would love to interview those clinic riders. I wonder how many different interpretations they would have of the same phrase "ride the balance not the feeling" despite the fact that they all improved.


Return to “Dressage Training”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 56 guests