Quick Hind Leg aka Quick Behind

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Re: Quick Hind Leg aka Quick Behind

Postby Tsavo » Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:46 am

Chisamba wrote:And I am walking away.


Why? You are contributing.

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Re: Quick Hind Leg aka Quick Behind

Postby musical comedy » Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:48 am

I'm not an advocate of French riding either.

Anyway, here is an article by Suzanne VD where she talks about quickening the hind end.

https://dressagetoday.com/instruction/q ... gine-25224

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Re: Quick Hind Leg aka Quick Behind

Postby Tsavo » Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:51 am

Chisamba wrote:I took a metronome to the video. When the horse balanced over the centerline and the instructor said good, the footfall was slower, not quicker.


I think the instructor knew that was the fastest the hind end could be given that level of collection.

These quick hind leg comments seem geared to not letting the hind end slow down more than it is forced to from the level of collection I think.

Think of those haute ecole movements where the front end is completely off the ground. It takes a strong horse to maintain any velocity whatsoever in the hind end. Collection as a much lower degree of weight on the hind end, also encourage the horse to slow on the hind. These comments are just to counteract the slowing I think.

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Re: Quick Hind Leg aka Quick Behind

Postby Chisamba » Fri Jun 22, 2018 12:00 pm

Remain active
Dont lose suspension
Allow shorter bascule
Do not block with your seat or arms
Rebalance and allow
Spiral in on the circle in medium canter

I can think of quite more useful comments and assists that are less obscure and more meaningful than quicken the bind end. (The guy in the video did say remain active which was useful along with shortening the reins)
I found the biomechanics article interesting, thank you.

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Re: Quick Hind Leg aka Quick Behind

Postby Tsavo » Fri Jun 22, 2018 12:02 pm

musical comedy wrote:I'm not an advocate of French riding either.

Anyway, here is an article by Suzanne VD where she talks about quickening the hind end.

https://dressagetoday.com/instruction/q ... gine-25224


That article is interesting.

I had a photo of me riding trot on my horse and the triangle of the front legs was larger than that of the hind and that was said to be on the forehand. This is opposite of what SvD is saying. That picture taken was during a short episode where my horse was dumping on the forehand. He never did that before or since which is why I really don't know to this day how to fix on the forehand. I have ridden other horses later who were on the forehand and indeed I didn't know how to fix it.

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Re: Quick Hind Leg aka Quick Behind

Postby Dresseur » Fri Jun 22, 2018 12:48 pm

Those pirouettes are absolutely the wrong way to start those, or allow them to continue. So down on the shoulder, the horse is literally pushing off the ground with the front legs.

In any case, I would have told the student to remain active and don't allow the tempo to slow as you hh. I would have also asked the student to do some quick transitions and canter on the spot and then haunches in on the circle. I agree with Chisamba, the horse is overall on the forehand and needs to be rebalanced - rather than recycle the energy, the horse just gets longer and more downhill when the rider asks for more activity.

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Re: Quick Hind Leg aka Quick Behind

Postby musical comedy » Fri Jun 22, 2018 1:31 pm

Dresseur wrote:Those pirouettes are absolutely the wrong way to start those, or allow them to continue. So down on the shoulder, the horse is literally pushing off the ground with the front legs.

In any case, I would have told the student to remain active and don't allow the tempo to slow as you hh. I would have also asked the student to do some quick transitions and canter on the spot and then haunches in on the circle. I agree with Chisamba, the horse is overall on the forehand and needs to be rebalanced - rather than recycle the energy, the horse just gets longer and more downhill when the rider asks for more activity.
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Re: Quick Hind Leg aka Quick Behind

Postby Dresseur » Fri Jun 22, 2018 1:39 pm

Someone asked what they would tell the student, and that's my answer.

And, I completely stand by my statement that it's the wrong way to perform a pirouette.

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Re: Quick Hind Leg aka Quick Behind

Postby musical comedy » Fri Jun 22, 2018 1:58 pm

Dresseur wrote:Someone asked what they would tell the student, and that's my answer.

And, I completely stand by my statement that it's the wrong way to perform a pirouette.
Well, my comment brings the question as to who people are supposed to read and listen to when trying to learn. I'm not qualified to give advice on how to train a pirouette, and I doubt you've taught many of them either if you are honest.

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Re: Quick Hind Leg aka Quick Behind

Postby musical comedy » Fri Jun 22, 2018 1:59 pm

From Arthur Kottas in an article: http://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/2015/0 ... -dressage/

"When the horse has fully understood the half-halt and is happy to lift a leg when touched by the whip, he is ready to learn how to collect. He is asked to walk on, and the trainer taps the legs to ask him to move them more quickly. The horse should begin to lift the legs, engage them under his body and eventually pick up a few steps of diagonal movement. When this happens, stop and reward him – and then repeat.”

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Re: Quick Hind Leg aka Quick Behind

Postby Ponichiwa » Fri Jun 22, 2018 2:06 pm

Chisamba wrote:Remain active
Dont lose suspension
Allow shorter bascule
Do not block with your seat or arms
Rebalance and allow
Spiral in on the circle in medium canter

I can think of quite more useful comments and assists that are less obscure and more meaningful than quicken the bind end. (The guy in the video did say remain active which was useful along with shortening the reins)
I found the biomechanics article interesting, thank you.


These are terms that you find more meaningful, but I wouldn't know what to do if a trainer told me to "rebalance and allow". Allow what? Rebalance-- was I balanced before and need to balance again? When was I balanced?

This discussion highlights how we as riders and trainers of ourselves and our horses may need to hear similar concepts in different ways in order to internalize them into something useful. This sport is a bit abstract and as such is open to interpretation.

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Re: Quick Hind Leg aka Quick Behind

Postby Dresseur » Fri Jun 22, 2018 2:14 pm

So, MC, are you saying that you feel that the pirouette that was shown in that video was correct?
And no, I have not taught full GP pirouettes to any horse as of yet. I've never once claimed to be something that I'm not in terms of skill or training and am not starting now :lol:. However, I do regularly school pirouettes from just beginning the working pirouettes up to the GP pirouette and that pirouette shown in the video was being pushed around by the shoulders and the hind legs are bunny hopping together. I pulled screenshots to illustrate what I mean, but decided that wasn't fair to the rider in the vid.

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Re: Quick Hind Leg aka Quick Behind

Postby musical comedy » Fri Jun 22, 2018 2:58 pm

Dresseur wrote:So, MC, are you saying that you feel that the pirouette that was shown in that video was correct?
I thought the pirouette was about what we see routinely in the PSG with AAs and even some pros. Correct? As in perfection, no. The video wasn't put up to assess the pirouette or even learn the pirouette. The purpose was to show what is meant by quickening. It showed only a little success at that but enough to get the idea I think.

I think we can probably all agree that sometimes when an instructor says "good", it means that it is good based on the competence of the rider/horse, where they are at the time, etc. It's like if a newbie gets a sloppy canter depart but at least gets the depart for the first time, the teacher may say "good".

My opinion of the horse is that it was not ready to do good pirouettes. The canter wasn't a collected canter. We don't know why the trainer asked her to do the pirouette and we don't know what exercises came before it as the video was cut.

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Re: Quick Hind Leg aka Quick Behind

Postby Dresseur » Fri Jun 22, 2018 3:01 pm

MC I would agree with your statements. And I probably derailed a bit and maybe the piris belong in their own thread. In terms of showing quickening, I'd say it didn't since it hopped around. And, while yes, that is the quality of piri shown routinely. My personal belief is that it's not good.

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Re: Quick Hind Leg aka Quick Behind

Postby Chisamba » Fri Jun 22, 2018 10:58 pm

Ponichiwa wrote:
Chisamba wrote:Remain active
Dont lose suspension
Allow shorter bascule
Do not block with your seat or arms
Rebalance and allow
Spiral in on the circle in medium canter

I can think of quite more useful comments and assists that are less obscure and more meaningful than quicken the bind end. (The guy in the video did say remain active which was useful along with shortening the reins)
I found the biomechanics article interesting, thank you.


These are terms that you find more meaningful, but I wouldn't know what to do if a trainer told me to "rebalance and allow". Allow what? Rebalance-- was I balanced before and need to balance again? When was I balanced?

This discussion highlights how we as riders and trainers of ourselves and our horses may need to hear similar concepts in different ways in order to internalize them into something useful. This sport is a bit abstract and as such is open to interpretation.


shift the balance more over the hind end, and they allow the horse to move forward. the more common term would be half halt another term that i dislike because it implies slowing rather than balancing ;)

if you know what to do with quicken the hind end then have at it

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Re: Quick Hind Leg aka Quick Behind

Postby kande50 » Sat Jun 23, 2018 2:04 pm

Chisamba wrote:See the lesson in the video hafdressage posted is an exact example of what I do not like.. it is an exact example of using an unclear buzz word to disguise poor teaching. The instructor gave nothing. No I indication. of how to be supposedly quicker behind. The horse in my opinion needed a change of balance that had nothing to do with the speed of the hind end and was actually acquired by the casually thrown in "shorten the reins'


The horse had no chance of being able to collect because he was already against the bit and btv, even in canter, which is the one gait in which it's much harder for the horse to come btv so you'd think we'd never, ever see that in canter. But no, instead of a soft, light, following hand we see a harsh hand which effectively blocks the horse from being able to move freely forward. So first the rider blocks the horse, and then she uses lots of whip and spur to keep him moving against the bit and btv.

I'm starting to think that few riders actually want to develop collection, because it gives their horses too much freedom which makes them too hard to ride when they're taken too far out of their comfort zones?

Or maybe the competition has just become all about making everything as hard for the horse as possible so that the trainers who are willing to be the most abusive can win?

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Re: Quick Hind Leg aka Quick Behind

Postby kande50 » Sat Jun 23, 2018 2:20 pm

musical comedy wrote: Do not pay several hundred dollars for professional advice from Dressage Training on Line or Dressage Clinic on Line. You can get free information right here on Definitely Dressage.


Yes you can, because there are a lot of people on here who can see it even if they may not be able to train or demo it. And personally, I'd rather spend my time listening to those who can tell the difference between the good and not-so-good, than watch the not-so-good represented as the way it should be done.

I've already spent way too much time watching the not-so-good and thinking that because it got good scores from the "experts" that it was what I should be emulating.

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Re: Quick Hind Leg aka Quick Behind

Postby musical comedy » Wed Jul 04, 2018 5:31 pm

Here's a short video clip of Lars Peterson schooling a pair on quickening the hind.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4dJO5RGe-c

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Re: Quick Hind Leg aka Quick Behind

Postby Tsavo » Wed Jul 04, 2018 6:58 pm

musical comedy wrote:Here's a short video clip of Lars Peterson schooling a pair on quickening the hind.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4dJO5RGe-c


That was pretty good. Canter depart every stride is useful.

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Re: Quick Hind Leg aka Quick Behind

Postby Chisamba » Wed Jul 04, 2018 7:26 pm

musical comedy wrote:Here's a short video clip of Lars Peterson schooling a pair on quickening the hind.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4dJO5RGe-c


i really enjoyed watching the video and listening, but to me the horse was clearly losing the correct rhythm of the canter in the collection, and so yes, the hind legs did need to be kept active. however in my opinion, the horse did not lower its hind or step more under in the process of the video, but I certainly knew what he was trying to get. especially with the do something comment lol.


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