Quick Hind Leg aka Quick Behind

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Quick Hind Leg aka Quick Behind

Postby musical comedy » Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:15 pm

It's a very common term. Here's one article that discusses it. There are many. Quickness (desireable) is always talked about with reference to the hind.

https://dressagetoday.com/instruction/quick-25520

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Re: Quick Hind Leg aka Quick Behind

Postby Tsavo » Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:38 pm

Alright how do you train it?

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Re: Quick Hind Leg aka Quick Behind

Postby Dresseur » Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:42 pm

Transitions, transitions, transitions (quick trot/halts). In hand work. Constantly asking for bits of extra effort (lengthenings and mini lengthenings without the horse spreading out). Being 110% consistent with feeling when and if the horse takes a little off the top and being quick with a tap with the spur or whip if the horse doesn't respond to seat/leg aids. And sometimes, yes sometimes, riding at a quicker tempo than ordinarily desirable especially if the horse is a confirmed hoverer.

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Re: Quick Hind Leg aka Quick Behind

Postby musical comedy » Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:55 pm

Tsavo wrote:Alright how do you train it?

What Dressuer wrote. But...some horses will never be ideally quick behind. That's why some never progress. That's why the ones with potential are usually expensive.

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Re: Quick Hind Leg aka Quick Behind

Postby demi » Tue Jun 19, 2018 2:35 pm

Interesting article, thanks for posting it. (I guess i need to subscribe to DT, after all ;) )

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Re: Quick Hind Leg aka Quick Behind

Postby Chisamba » Tue Jun 19, 2018 4:00 pm

So according to the article its a term that has nothing to do with tempo and is supposedly about articulation and stepping under.

I sure will never understand how terms come to mean something they are not.

According to this article the ability is innate, not trained.

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Re: Quick Hind Leg aka Quick Behind

Postby kande50 » Tue Jun 19, 2018 4:08 pm

Seems like the last thing anyone would want is quick behind, because collection involves loading the hind more and for longer. So I'm not sure why anyone would describe it as quicker, and especially not as quicker behind?

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Re: Quick Hind Leg aka Quick Behind

Postby Dresseur » Tue Jun 19, 2018 4:20 pm

I think articulation is part of it - the horse that travels with open joints tends to drag their feet.

Kande, yes, you load the hind, but you don't want the hind to get stuck and dwell in one spot for too long, because ideally, collection is kept at about the same tempo as your regular work. You don't want to see the horse visibly slow down or take lazy steps. The amount of energy expended in collection is much more than in regular work. So, for instance, when you do a canter on the spot, the horse is going more up and down in space and traveling less distance forward, but in as close to the same tempo as your regular canter as you can be.

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Re: Quick Hind Leg aka Quick Behind

Postby kande50 » Tue Jun 19, 2018 4:37 pm

Dresseur wrote:I think articulation is part of it - the horse that travels with open joints tends to drag their feet.

Kande, yes, you load the hind, but you don't want the hind to get stuck and dwell in one spot for too long, because ideally, collection is kept at about the same tempo as your regular work. You don't want to see the horse visibly slow down or take lazy steps. The amount of energy expended in collection is much more than in regular work. So, for instance, when you do a canter on the spot, the horse is going more up and down in space and traveling less distance forward, but in as close to the same tempo as your regular canter as you can be.


We're probably talking about different things, but I think we do want to see the horse visibly slow down when he collects, because even though the tempo stays the same the overall impression is that the horse has slowed down.

One way to think about it is to visualize what a horse would look like if he went from extended trot to piaffe. The most obvious observation would be that the horse slowed down, and in fact, even though collected work may actually take as much effort as extended work, the impression is that it's less energetic because it looks less active.

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Re: Quick Hind Leg aka Quick Behind

Postby Dresseur » Tue Jun 19, 2018 4:39 pm

Actually, the extended trot is the one that should have a tendency to look a bit slower. And, you have to look at the legs and literally count out 1, 2, 1, 2 and you'll see that the tempo should be kept the same. The canter piri tends to look slower... but again, you have to look at the hind legs in that instance.

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Re: Quick Hind Leg aka Quick Behind

Postby demi » Tue Jun 19, 2018 4:55 pm

I am trying to imagine two horses trotting side by side at exactly the same tempo. One is quic behind, the other is not. In the same amount of time, the “quick”horse will close up the angles in the hip, the stifle, the hock, and maybe even the pastern, and the non quick horse will only swing his leg forward from the hip, articulating the other joints barely enough to clear the ground. Also, the “quick” horse will bring the foot well under the body (and rider), while the non quick horse’s hind leg will not come nearly as far under the body.

So in the same amount of time, the horse that uses his joints will look quick in comparison to the horse that doesn’t and maybe this is because there is so much more “action” with the quick horse...

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Re: Quick Hind Leg aka Quick Behind

Postby Ponichiwa » Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:11 pm

kande50 wrote:
Dresseur wrote:I think articulation is part of it - the horse that travels with open joints tends to drag their feet.

Kande, yes, you load the hind, but you don't want the hind to get stuck and dwell in one spot for too long, because ideally, collection is kept at about the same tempo as your regular work. You don't want to see the horse visibly slow down or take lazy steps. The amount of energy expended in collection is much more than in regular work. So, for instance, when you do a canter on the spot, the horse is going more up and down in space and traveling less distance forward, but in as close to the same tempo as your regular canter as you can be.


We're probably talking about different things, but I think we do want to see the horse visibly slow down when he collects, because even though the tempo stays the same the overall impression is that the horse has slowed down.

One way to think about it is to visualize what a horse would look like if he went from extended trot to piaffe. The most obvious observation would be that the horse slowed down, and in fact, even though collected work may actually take as much effort as extended work, the impression is that it's less energetic because it looks less active.


Re: bolded-- I think you're talking about changing velocity (rate of groundcover), and Dresseur is talking about tempo (rate of repetition of the rhythm of the footfalls). Collected and extended trots should carry the same tempo throughout (tough to do, but easy to say), but will naturally be very different speeds.

That said, there may not be much difference in groundcover of working vs. collected gaits. The main difference should be the posture and balance. I'm not convinced that collection = hind end stays grounded for longer; the joints of the hind end should be folding more as more weight is taken behind but does not require that the suspension phase be reduced.

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Re: Quick Hind Leg aka Quick Behind

Postby kande50 » Tue Jun 19, 2018 7:39 pm

Dresseur wrote:Actually, the extended trot is the one that should have a tendency to look a bit slower. And, you have to look at the legs and literally count out 1, 2, 1, 2 and you'll see that the tempo should be kept the same. The canter piri tends to look slower... but again, you have to look at the hind legs in that instance.


The extended trot should look a bit slower than the piaffe? :-)

I think maybe you're talking about the tempo and I'm talking about the whole horse?

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Re: Quick Hind Leg aka Quick Behind

Postby kande50 » Tue Jun 19, 2018 7:57 pm

Ponichiwa wrote:
I think you're talking about changing velocity (rate of groundcover)


Yes. That's what I meant by overall impression, which is what makes the choice of the word "quicker" so odd. I can't think of anything we want to be quicker in dressage.

I'm not convinced that collection = hind end stays grounded for longer; the joints of the hind end should be folding more as more weight is taken behind but does not require that the suspension phase be reduced.


I don't know, but it looks like it does as it takes more and more weight, with the progression extending from working trot through piaffe to levade.

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Re: Quick Hind Leg aka Quick Behind

Postby khall » Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:05 pm

MC so true!

What I look at is where the hock is and how far back or not it goes with the horse in the trot especially. So think of all the engaging exercises. skipping a gait, transitions within the gait, all the lateral work, RB What happens with the slower hind legged horses is that it is difficult to keep the energy up in the lateral work, it tends to bleed the energy out of them. So we either need to go more forward in the lateral work, do transitions within the lateral work or get out of lateral work and refresh the gait. The horses that find engagement easier, the lateral work is easier. The Andalusians I rode in Spain were phenomenal to ride in lateral work! My filly's dam was like a ballerina, very light and easy to do lateral work in. She was half TB!

Extended trot has the maximum length of stride a horse can give in the trot, more air time longer stride=slower rate than piaffe which has little to no air time.

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Re: Quick Hind Leg aka Quick Behind

Postby kande50 » Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:10 pm

demi wrote:I am trying to imagine two horses trotting side by side at exactly the same tempo. One is quic behind, the other is not. In the same amount of time, the “quick”horse will close up the angles in the hip, the stifle, the hock, and maybe even the pastern, and the non quick horse will only swing his leg forward from the hip, articulating the other joints barely enough to clear the ground. Also, the “quick” horse will bring the foot well under the body (and rider), while the non quick horse’s hind leg will not come nearly as far under the body.


Fun mental exercise while I'm grounded with family responsibilities. :)

Seems that if the "quick" horse was closing up the angles more (sitting more?) he'd be collecting more so would be slower (covering ground slower) than the horse who was trotting at the same tempo but with much more open hind angles?

I also feel like the horse who is more on the forehand (sitting less) would be able to move his hinds more quickly compared to the one who was taking more weight on his hinds?



So in the same amount of time, the horse that uses his joints will look quick in comparison to the horse that doesn’t and maybe this is because there is so much more “action” with the quick horse...


Yes, I think there would be more action in front, although even that should be a smoother action when more collected so I wouldn't describe that as quicker, either.

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Re: Quick Hind Leg aka Quick Behind

Postby Chisamba » Wed Jun 20, 2018 10:04 pm

when people say quick behind, i imagine those sewing machine horses that scurry. I really dislike the term. but since we are talking about it, would you say Totilas was "slow" behind?

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Re: Quick Hind Leg aka Quick Behind

Postby Tsavo » Wed Jun 20, 2018 10:08 pm

Chisamba wrote:but since we are talking about it, would you say Totilas was "slow" behind?


I am awarding you +1 just for asking this. :-)

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Re: Quick Hind Leg aka Quick Behind

Postby musical comedy » Wed Jun 20, 2018 11:35 pm

Chisamba wrote:when people say quick behind, i imagine those sewing machine horses that scurry. I really dislike the term. but since we are talking about it, would you say Totilas was "slow" behind?
No, but I'm not going to debate you over it. You may not like the term, but it is a very commonly used term in dressage (maybe just modern dressage). I'm surprised you haven't heard it. Long ago on udbb I think, I provided a technical explanation of what it is, but even then people wanted to debate it.

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Re: Quick Hind Leg aka Quick Behind

Postby khall » Thu Jun 21, 2018 11:51 am

No chisamba Totilas was not slow behind. I got to see him in 2010 at WEG, his 3 Ps were very good and his HPs both trot and canter were just stunning to watch. His weaknesses were the tempis and trot extensions.

I have heard this terminology for years in respect to dressage horses from various trainers. It has always made sense to me and having a horse that is an energy conservationist has been on my radar screen for a good bit. With Rip early on asking for energy was tricky because you might get more of a woo wee yee haw than the energy in a more direct able manner. In fact the first time I came off him he was 3 and I asked for a bit more oomph and got weeee! swapped around tossing me into the arena fence. Love my flex rail! I should have addressed this differently with Rip I do believe looking back.

If the terminology does not make sense to you then ignore it. I was trying to find some video of a horse that I felt needed more energy or quicker behind but do not have much time right now.

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Re: Quick Hind Leg aka Quick Behind

Postby kande50 » Thu Jun 21, 2018 12:19 pm

I think it's like any other sport in that jargon just develops over time.

There does however, seem to be a trend toward using the same terms that are used in the rule books, which IMO, is a very good thing because then at least the well defined terms can be used to try to clarify what is meant by the jargon.

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Re: Quick Hind Leg aka Quick Behind

Postby kande50 » Thu Jun 21, 2018 12:26 pm

Chisamba wrote:when people say quick behind, i imagine those sewing machine horses that scurry. I really dislike the term. but since we are talking about it, would you say Totilas was "slow" behind?


Would slow be the opposite of quick, or would slow be the opposite of fast--and sluggish the opposite of quick? :-)

I think sluggish works better, because even though Totillas's tempo could possibly be described as quick (although fast would probably be more accurate), his hind end could be described as slow or sluggish if we were talking about its ability to flex (sit) and carry more weight.
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Re: Quick Hind Leg aka Quick Behind

Postby Chisamba » Thu Jun 21, 2018 12:27 pm

I am pedantic. I do dislike erroneous "slang". In my opinion the proof that the language is questionable is that an article like the one MC posted exists. There would be no need for such an article if the use of the word "quick" was not subject to misunderstanding.

If you are actually trying to help some one in the training of their horse, describing what your actual goal is would be far more effective .

In dressage it's pretty much universally accepted that rhythm and tempo are exceptionally important. If the horse is in rhythm and you talk about quickening only one end, you are literally telling a person to change the rhythm.

Also, since it is both possible and more likely, a horse can easily speed up the hind without stepping under more, in fact the speedier you make the hind, often, the less likely the horse is to step under and the more likely it is to take rapid little steps behind, I not only find the term ineffectual, I actually find it misleading.

I dont actually care how often it is used. I would still seek to find out what the person actually means, because I do like to learn from shared experiences.

At the start of all this I simply asked Dresseur to explain exactly what she meant by her advice because I felt the way she described it was too open to interpretation.

According to you, I'm not allowed to ask for clarification because in your opinion I should know what she meant, but then you share an article which clearly demonstrates that what is meant is not universally understood.

There are many commonly used dressage terms that are often used and misinterpreted, or at the very least have many interpretations
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Re: Quick Hind Leg aka Quick Behind

Postby musical comedy » Thu Jun 21, 2018 12:35 pm

Chisamba wrote:According to you, I'm not allowed to ask for clarification because in your opinion I should know what she meant, but then you share an article which clearly demonstrates that what is meant is not universally understood.
I said you are not allowed to ask for clarification? No, I did not. But as a professional trainer, I am surprised you didn't know and understand what the term meant. You get so defensive if someone doesn't think like you. It's not a good trait for a professional.

DressageToday magazine has many (even most) articles that are more for learning dressage riders. Lots of articles on things like "how to get your horse on the aids", etc. that most seasoned dressage riders know. Same with talking about quick hind ends. I took you comment about Totalis as snarky.

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Re: Quick Hind Leg aka Quick Behind

Postby Ponichiwa » Thu Jun 21, 2018 12:41 pm

I've heard "quick behind" as shorthand for "quick off the ground with the hind end" as well.

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Re: Quick Hind Leg aka Quick Behind

Postby Dresseur » Thu Jun 21, 2018 12:47 pm

I'll dip my toe back into this conversation because I agree, quick behind is a bit of a catch-all phrase that I've heard to describe a few different things. I agree with MC that it is a very commonly used term, but Chisamba is also right, it can be open for interpretation. I've been doing some thinking on this and I personally seek this out of the hind end (please take into consideration that I am expecting the hind to influence the front).

1. I want a horse that is quick in it's responses to my aids. So quick in the sense that I ask, and the horse immediately powers up. Miro is not this but he's learning. In this way, I can ask for more power at any point and the response is immediate. I think to me, this is number one in what I feel quick behind means.
2. I want the horse to have articulation in the joints - not a horse who lazily drags his toes in the dirt.
3. I want a horse to step clearly and cleanly underneath itself - again, articulation and no dragging of the toes.

What I do not want.
1. A horse that just churns or cycles his hind legs underneath itself without stepping forward (the sewing machines or excessively hocky horses
2. A horse that tends to dwell out behind itself - the ones that have great articulation but tend to have an extended lag time out behind.These horses seem to have a longer than usual pushing phase and are not "quick off the ground"
3. A horse that appears to move in slow motion, I want a horse that moves through it's body cleanly - and a lot of that has to do with the hind legs.

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Re: Quick Hind Leg aka Quick Behind

Postby Tsavo » Thu Jun 21, 2018 12:52 pm

In my opinion, the jargon used in dressage hides a world of surmise versus hard data and in fact a world where people mean opposite things to each other as a consequence. Some part of it is difficulty in translating from other languages but that is more of a reason as opposed to an excuse.

People repeat things because they think they know what they mean. In many cases they do know but it is due to rote learning as opposed to any logic in the term.

In my journey and in my posts I often use the construction, "this that but what is really happening is this (or probably this)". I am explicitly trying to deconstruct jargon when I can or explicitly trying to demystify things if I can. I think jargon is a severe impediment to learning and if I can demystify things, imagine how less mystifying this sport would be if professionals did so. Instead some of these professionals just pass on their rote learning of terms and often do not attempt to deconstruct/demystify. I would love to see a small book of all these jargon terms deconstructed to what is really happening.

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Re: Quick Hind Leg aka Quick Behind

Postby kande50 » Thu Jun 21, 2018 12:52 pm

Ponichiwa wrote:I've heard "quick behind" as shorthand for "quick off the ground with the hind end" as well.


Horses who dump on the forehand and bounce their hinds higher are quick off the ground with their hinds too, so I'm not sure that phrase describes what may (possibly) be meant about quick behind?

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Re: Quick Hind Leg aka Quick Behind

Postby Ponichiwa » Thu Jun 21, 2018 1:40 pm

kande50 wrote:
Ponichiwa wrote:I've heard "quick behind" as shorthand for "quick off the ground with the hind end" as well.


Horses who dump on the forehand and bounce their hinds higher are quick off the ground with their hinds too, so I'm not sure that phrase describes what may (possibly) be meant about quick behind?


To my understanding, it's not a term that's intended to encapsulate perfection-- just one positive aspect that, if overemphasized to the detriment of the whole, can be problematic.

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Re: Quick Hind Leg aka Quick Behind

Postby Chisamba » Thu Jun 21, 2018 4:55 pm

musical comedy wrote:
Chisamba wrote:According to you, I'm not allowed to ask for clarification because in your opinion I should know what she meant, but then you share an article which clearly demonstrates that what is meant is not universally understood.
I said you are not allowed to ask for clarification? No, I did not. But as a professional trainer, I am surprised you didn't know and understand what the term meant. You get so defensive if someone doesn't think like you. It's not a good trait for a professional.

DressageToday magazine has many (even most) articles that are more for learning dressage riders. Lots of articles on things like "how to get your horse on the aids", etc. that most seasoned dressage riders know. Same with talking about quick hind ends. I took you comment about Totalis as snarky.


why? it was genuine. the first horse that came to mind that obviously had a different rate of leg motion between front and back was totilas, especially in the two gaits that really show, extended trot and tempi.

On a personal note, which may or may not be helpful, I have found, when i show a non dressage horse to demonstrate a point people call me snarky, so when i use a commonly known dressage horse to ask, again I am snarky. if i found a video of a hackney pony being quick behind, but not stepping under, i feel it would be labeled as disingenuous or snarky.

I have a fairly high autism spectrum quotient,
as such, i am mostly quite literal in interpretation, both in reading and expression. therefore, realistically any interpretation of snarky or disingenuouty is less likely to be on my account. it is also likely that i may have read more intention into a statement that you made than you intended.

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Re: Quick Hind Leg aka Quick Behind

Postby khall » Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:02 pm

I know for me hearing the same thing said a bit differently will often times click. So while some of us hear quicken the hind legs of the horse and we have an understanding of what the trainer is conveying (needs more energy, more engagement) for those who don't understand or feel that the terminology is problematic, then just ignore it. There are so many different ways to convey thoughts and ideas on riding/training not all will fit everyone.

So genuine question to you tsavo and chisamba, when you watch Bliss what do you think needs improving and what would you tell Rosie to do to help him improve?

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Re: Quick Hind Leg aka Quick Behind

Postby musical comedy » Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:11 pm

khall wrote:I know for me hearing the same thing said a bit differently will often times click. So while some of us hear quicken the hind legs of the horse and we have an understanding of what the trainer is conveying (needs more energy, more engagement) for those who don't understand or feel that the terminology is problematic, then just ignore it. There are so many different ways to convey thoughts and ideas on riding/training not all will fit everyone.
I didn't always know what it meant. I remember once long ago being in canter, and the clinician just said "quicker, quicker". Of course what dummy me tried to do was go more forward which was wrong.

I just thought of another way to better understand it. This could cause more confusion though. When someone is teaching a horse piaffe/passage, and the ground person taps the horse's hind legs, what are they trying to achieve? A quicker response from the hind legs. When a horse is in piaffe, yes you want them to lower the hind end, but don't you want the hind steps quicker?

Totalis had a good piaffe, showing he was quick with his hind end. All top international horses are quick behind or else they wouldn't be top international horses. Some are better than others as to the degree of quickness.

Where I see quick behind mentioned a lot is in horse sale ads of expensive horses.

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Re: Quick Hind Leg aka Quick Behind

Postby kande50 » Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:25 pm

[quote="khall"]...for those who don't understand or feel that the terminology is problematic, then just ignore it. There are so many different ways to convey thoughts and ideas on riding/training not all will fit everyone.

If I'm taking a lesson and my trainer tells me my horse needs to be quicker behind, should I just ignore it because I'm not sure I understand what she's getting at?

What better place to explore meanings and concepts than a discussion group?

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Re: Quick Hind Leg aka Quick Behind

Postby Chisamba » Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:28 pm

Musical Comedy, i see it was actually Khall that told "me" to ignore the terminology, not you, i do apologize.

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Re: Quick Hind Leg aka Quick Behind

Postby Chisamba » Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:30 pm

musical comedy wrote:Where I see quick behind mentioned a lot is in horse sale ads of expensive horses.


hahaha, that explains why its not as familiar to me, i don't look at those adverts!! :D :D

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Re: Quick Hind Leg aka Quick Behind

Postby musical comedy » Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:34 pm

Ok, here's another thought about it. Let's say we are in a lesson and our horse is doing a passagy trot or a lumbering canter. The instructor says to us "more energy" "more lively" "fill in your word of choice". What is the solution? Isn't it to activate the hind end? That would be quickening the hind end. Am I digging a hole to step in.

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Re: Quick Hind Leg aka Quick Behind

Postby kande50 » Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:35 pm

Ponichiwa wrote:
To my understanding, it's not a term that's intended to encapsulate perfection-- just one positive aspect that, if overemphasized to the detriment of the whole, can be problematic.


Now I'm wondering if "quick behind" or "quick off the ground" means that the horse turns his back hooves over sooner because he doesn't leave them out behind as far before he breaks over? "Sooner" as in, before he would break over if he was at the same tempo but less collected?

If that's what the phrase means (big if), then it seems like a rather roundabout way to say that the horse is too strung out/leaving his hinds out behind, although I think khali's right that a concept that doesn't work at all for some can be a lightbulb moment for others.

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Re: Quick Hind Leg aka Quick Behind

Postby Chisamba » Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:35 pm

MC, not being disingenuous, some horses that are tapped behind on the hocks to piaffe to achieve quicker hind legs develop a stuck front end and bouncy hind end . have you seen the type of piaffe i am trying to describe? the not very desirable type. My first GP horse, Sunstorm, had a grounded front end bouncy hind end type Piaffe, and it was achieve by a ground person helping me.

although my piaffe was not good. NOT GOOD , on Sunstorm, i did achieve a reasonably good piaffe on Kea when in a clinic and the clinician tapped her behind, so yes, i also understand the correct and good results from your description too.

everything is so relative isn't it, at times it is hard to understand others because you see it all from the framework of your own horses and experience, ( which may not be at all similar to the described horse and experiences)

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Re: Quick Hind Leg aka Quick Behind

Postby kande50 » Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:36 pm

musical comedy wrote:Ok, here's another thought about it. Let's say we are in a lesson and our horse is doing a passagy trot or a lumbering canter. The instructor says to us "more energy" "more lively" "fill in your word of choice". What is the solution? Isn't it to activate the hind end? That would be quickening the hind end. Am I digging a hole to step in.


:D

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Re: Quick Hind Leg aka Quick Behind

Postby Chisamba » Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:41 pm

okay, i am NOT picking on a particular rider but this is a well remembered scene to me,

but, imho it demonstrated a horse that is quick behind but this has not maintained activity in front. of course clearly it is a difficult moment, and an example of shutting down, but it does show moments of what i was talking about, ( quick behind in piaffe not always translating to correct)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3FcOaMElBg

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Re: Quick Hind Leg aka Quick Behind

Postby khall » Thu Jun 21, 2018 6:46 pm

Another question for those who are not agreeing with the phrase quicker behind. What do we target on the horse usually when we apply the whip? The HQs or hind legs is it not? Chisamba you even talked of riding with a longer whip to be able to touch the hind legs when we were discussing using a buggy whip for in hand and riding. So what are you asking for when you touch the hind leg? For it to be more active right? So we need the horse to be active in their work so we can begin to shape them and ask for more. If we don't have that desire in the horse to GO then there is no recycling of energy that leads to the development in the horse. That energy is needed even more as we begin collecting work, so the horse can engage and carry instead of push the load. With some horses who do not have this innate desire we have to develop it by targeting the engine. Sometimes it does require riding over tempo but sometimes it just requires asking for a greater effort on the horse's part to keep those hind legs more under i.e. quicker off the ground so they can tuck the pelvis and engage/lift the sling.

Now the incorrect piaffe we can see IMO is often from the overall training. I feel there are several causes, compression of the neck and not allowing the horse to come up and IFV so he can lower the HQs instead of bounce behind. With Rip we right now have to actually have him a bit above the bit so he can get those front legs out of the way. Sometimes it is asking for the piaffe to be on the spot too soon. Also while the initial concentration should be on the hind legs, once the horse starts to get the understanding of hind leg activity then the handler/trainer can begin to address the front legs as well. Some use bamboo for this. We have started Spanish walk with Rip to give him the understanding of lifting the front legs better.

Anyway off to oral surgeon for DS, has to get his wisdom teeth out before he goes to college.

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Re: Quick Hind Leg aka Quick Behind

Postby musical comedy » Thu Jun 21, 2018 7:11 pm

Chisamba wrote:okay, i am NOT picking on a particular rider but this is a well remembered scene to me,

but, imho it demonstrated a horse that is quick behind but this has not maintained activity in front. of course clearly it is a difficult moment, and an example of shutting down, but it does show moments of what i was talking about, ( quick behind in piaffe not always translating to correct)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3FcOaMElBg
You may be correct that this is the reason for that mishap. I won't comment because I don't know or have an opinion of why it happened. I never meant to say tapping the hinds for piaffe would always generate a correct piaffe; only that the purpose of the tapping was to quicken the hinds.

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Re: Quick Hind Leg aka Quick Behind

Postby kande50 » Thu Jun 21, 2018 7:35 pm

khall wrote:asking for a greater effort on the horse's part to keep those hind legs more under i.e. quicker off the ground so they can tuck the pelvis and engage/lift the sling.


More under, yes. More thrust, yes (or at least the same amt of thrust but in a different direction). But quicker off the ground? I doubt it, but that may depend to what we're comparing which part?

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Re: Quick Hind Leg aka Quick Behind

Postby HafDressage » Fri Jun 22, 2018 4:33 am

I don't have time to read all the posts, but quick behind in reference to most horses (esp. warmbloods and big movers) is that they are either slow behind which means the gait loses purity or that they need to spend less time in the air with their hind legs. So, in the trot many horses that naturally have lots of suspension end up with a lot of "air time," which means the hind end is moving too slow in the air and hovering, which among other problems gives a very lackadaisical look. In the canter, it means the hind leg is not quite jumping through quick enough, so the hind end also looks lackadaisical and disconnected. In some horses this is 4-beaty in the canter. In others, the look of too much air time. More importantly, for those that hover it means they are not sitting down with their butts and hence having too much air time or moving slowly through the air means a lack of sitting and pushing. So, if their butt is up in the air all the time or the hind end is not jumping through fast enough, there is no true collection. So, hence the term make them quicker behind.

Too quick in the trot or canter, as I'm sure others have said is a reference to speed and is also not ideal, but a totally different reference.

Example of a horse that needs to be quicker behind and the trainer working on it. You can see the nicer moments across the center line where the horses leg gets quicker and the horse sits more instead of being downhill:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=II-CiQvh9-k

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Re: Quick Hind Leg aka Quick Behind

Postby Chisamba » Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:02 am

See the lesson in the video hafdressage posted is an exact example of what I do not like.. it is an exact example of using an unclear buzz word to disguise poor teaching. The instructor gave nothing. No I indication. of how to be supposedly quicker behind. The horse in my opinion needed a change of balance that had nothing to do with the speed of the hind end and was actually acquired by the casually thrown in "shorten the reins'

What did he actually want.? The hind end under? More activity? Quicker simply means more rapid. Quicker is nothing more than a description of speed.

It's what I actually dislike about the becoming more common use of the term.

Again, I suppose it's just my personal opinion and if I live long enough it may swing out of use again.

By the way, the reason for the hover warmblood horse existing is it used to be mistaken for schwung. Another misunderstood buzzword. And sold for big bucks and was bred for.

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Re: Quick Hind Leg aka Quick Behind

Postby Tsavo » Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:14 am

I think he wanted her to change the longitudinal balance while keeping the activity. If most horses lose hind end activity as they sit then the term "quicken the hind" may be just a cue to not let it slow down as opposed to quickening it. It takes great strength to sit and probably even more to sit and keep the activity.

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Re: Quick Hind Leg aka Quick Behind

Postby Chisamba » Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:30 am

I promise to walk away from the topic. Sorry for irritating everyone.

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Re: Quick Hind Leg aka Quick Behind

Postby musical comedy » Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:35 am

Disagree Chisamba. How is the balance going to be changed without quicking the hind end? If more activity is needed, how does one get activity without quickening the hind end? What IS activity in the canter, can someone explain that? And yes, in this case quicken does mean more rapid as in getting the hind legs off the ground faster. How can one rebalance energy that isn't there? The shorten the reins comment was appropriate as well. I understood the video and it would be similar to lessons I've had and watched.

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Re: Quick Hind Leg aka Quick Behind

Postby Chisamba » Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:45 am

A horse can change balance standing still.
I took a metronome to the video. When the horse balanced over the centerline and the instructor said good, the footfall was slower, not quicker.

And I'm not even an advocate of french riding.

And I am walking away.

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Re: Quick Hind Leg aka Quick Behind

Postby Tsavo » Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:45 am

Chisamba, what would you have told that student?

I think this issue of keeping the activity is akin to a HH... you really can't teach it. I think every student has to have the clear idea in mind of what they need to accomplish and just experiment with doing things until they get the right reaction.

I am not an instructor but I think the most you can tell a student to teach them this is to ask with seat and leg to come and to make room for the front end to come up and to not let the horse come against the hand during any of this. That will force them to learn a HH also.


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