why I find lungeing helpful

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demi
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why I find lungeing helpful

Postby demi » Fri Jun 29, 2018 6:40 pm

I have been lungeing for the last 5 weeks, 3-4 time a week, 15-20 minutes at a time. I lunge in sidereins and am getting a better feeling for how to adjust the length. I am working only at trot. The first three weeks were just spent figuring out the length of the sidereins (yes, it took me that long). At the same time I worked on keeping a good, steady rhythm, and establishing our working trot. Then I started on lengthening the stride for a few strides, and coming back to the working trot.

One huge (for me) thing that I noticed, was that Rocky's lengthening was definitely there, but I easily missed it until I studied it on vids that I took. I had to look and look at the vids (crappy ones because I was holding the phone and lungeing at the same time) before I could easily recognize that first lengthened stride. Now I realize that if I couldnt see the lengthening, I certainly couldnt feel it. That's probably why when teaching lengthenings in the past, I always pushed too hard.

So in this case, the lungeing in sidereins is a very good thing. I will start riding again tomorrow, but I plan on contiuing to lunge peridically.

One photo from yesterday which shows a difference from the photos I posted 5 weeks ago in the progress thread:
Image

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Re: why I find lungeing helpful

Postby musical comedy » Fri Jun 29, 2018 7:44 pm

Is this the posture you lunge (and ride) in all the time? Do you ever have the horse stretch down? This looks posed to me and not connected, sorry.

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Re: why I find lungeing helpful

Postby Tsavo » Fri Jun 29, 2018 11:01 pm


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Re: why I find lungeing helpful

Postby piedmontfields » Fri Jun 29, 2018 11:28 pm

Demi, I appreciate your update.

MC, my guess is that this is the more elevated frame that Rocky can now spend some time in vs. the starting frame---but I'm sure Demi can explicate if she desires. Sometimes that change of frame is a real challenge to balance and thoroughness.

I lunge occasionally, often due to time, weather or a chance to see how Em is moving. At this point, I do not use side reins, although Emi is fine with them. I really don't like using side reins at canter (although I think it can be fine---especially more sliding/Vienna-type). So I use a Spanish cavesson pretty much all the time now. Something I've been incorporating this year is trotting and cantering over poles and higher cavaletti (which = a small jump to my non-jumper). I find it is very relaxing for Em and gets her to release her back very nicely into a good forward down and out stretch---which is not her usual go to without help from the saddle.

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Re: why I find lungeing helpful

Postby Tsavo » Fri Jun 29, 2018 11:46 pm

I lunged for 2 months at the beginning of my horse's rehab for obvious reasons. I continued to lunge him intermittently just to see what he was doing.

I lunged him just yesterday because the roofers were at the house nearby and he was spooking and bolting at the noises which seemed to insult his people. :-) Anyway I was glad to see what he was doing and especially his face which reflects how he is feeling. He looks like he is moving almost normally. He was sound and even and stopped trotting and cantering only when I asked him to do so. So he is getting very comfortable in the work.

He still brought his haunches in when cantering right which I just find odd given that the left hind occasionally bothers him yet there he is bringing it under his body. He does this under saddle but will let me straighten him now.

The groaning is now confined to uphills in canter I'm glad to report. We only do a little bit of that each day.

I think the owner is keeping him out more because of the correlation to being in and then limping the next day. I would say he limps less than once a week but at least once every two weeks. If I kept him at a reasonable latitude, we wouldn't have to deal with this heat versus limping trade off. He lived out last winter and was sound almost the entire time though the magic of donkeys may have been involved there. :-)
Last edited by Tsavo on Sat Jun 30, 2018 10:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: why I find lungeing helpful

Postby demi » Sat Jun 30, 2018 11:46 am

musical comedy wrote:Is this the posture you lunge (and ride) in all the time? Do you ever have the horse stretch down? This looks posed to me and not connected, sorry.


I do lunge and ride in different postures, including stretching down. My trainer knows I have been lunging in sidereins. She rides Rocky every other week and she hasn’t mentioned that the lunging is having ill effects. In fact, she says she really enjoys riding her, and that the work I am doing in between is helping.

I have a lesson MOnday and will talk to her about it, as well as show her the pics and vid. In the meantime, can you explain what it is you see that makes it look posed? The only thing I can think of is the slack in the lungeline, but, as I explained in the post, it is difficult to hold a horse, a whip and the cell phone all at the same time, and keep her in the camera frame. I only briefly video, so I can at least get a small visual, then I put the camera in my pocket and concentrate on the lunging itself.

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Re: why I find lungeing helpful

Postby StraightForward » Sat Jun 30, 2018 4:11 pm

Well I am inspired to go out and lunge properly today. I need to step Annabelle's work up a little, but 3 days of riding in a row still seems like a little much for her. After watching yesterday's video, I think it's time to do some lunging in SRs. I use a Vienna rein type setup but haven't used SRs on A much at all since I got her. I've been too busy to find the assorted parts and get all my lunging kit together since moving to the new barn, but I'm off this week and will do it now. Lately, per Rosie's thread, I have been back to lunging for a few minutes before riding to get A's motor going. I was doing this to good effect, and had slacked off a little, but it always results in a better ride with less behind-the-leg warmup time.

What I think MC may have been looking at, is how Rocky looks a little contracted around the withers, so the neck shows elevation without a corresponding degree of lowering of the haunches. You were there and know your horse, so you know if she looked to be honestly recycling the energy, but that is the impression I get from the photo, and based just on that, would probably lower the SRs one place, but to me it's a very slight impression. Do you have a lunging caveson? I find it really helpful to be able to attach the line to the top of the nose and generate some flexion from that, rather than having multi-directional action on the bit.
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Re: why I find lungeing helpful

Postby musical comedy » Sat Jun 30, 2018 5:25 pm

My observation (which may not be that of others) is that most trainers want a horse to longitudinally stretch in lunging. Out, down and round, stretching into the contact. This is not just young horses, but most horses. I realize there is lunging for collection and advanced work, but that is usually reserved for the experts.

Rocky is hooked up like you would lunge an advanced horse working collection. By posed, it looks like she has backed
off the contact. Demi, maybe I’m wrong, but I think you subscribe pretty rigidly to the ‘poll the highest point, nose forward’ school.

When we ride, do we always keep the reins the same length and the hands the same position? I don’t. Don’t we ‘give’
occasionally? I do. Don't we vary the posture of the horse? I do. How can one do that lunging in set-length side reins?
How can we do walk/trot transitions, when it’s not recommended to walk in side reins. Same with canter.

If your trainer advocates lunging in this posture and if she and you think it is benefiting and progressing your horse, by all means continue this way. To my eye, it doesn’t look good, but we march to a different drum.

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Re: why I find lungeing helpful

Postby Josette » Sat Jun 30, 2018 6:49 pm

My disclaimer is I am not an experienced lunge person or ground driver. However, I've observed some experienced people and know there are differences of opinion, etc. My guy was a heavy leaner so he needed sliding side reins to prevent it. My instructor worked him as she closely monitored the rein length and his response - making adjustments. If I lunge now - I never use side reins. I'm after some exercise during bad weather or to practice his response to transitions - which I do frequent to assist when under saddle.

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Re: why I find lungeing helpful

Postby kande50 » Sat Jun 30, 2018 7:41 pm

Josette wrote:My disclaimer is I am not an experienced lunge person or ground driver.


Same here, Josette. I'm not good at lungeing, nor do I want to get good at it so I don't do it. Maybe if I was grounded and couldn't think of anything else I wanted to learn how to do I might do some lungeing, but I have about a million other things I'd like to get better at so I'll likely never get good at lungeing.

I like working at liberty and working in hand, so if I couldn't ride I'd do that instead.

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Re: why I find lungeing helpful

Postby Chisamba » Sat Jun 30, 2018 9:05 pm

When I longe, which is once a week per horse, I adjust the reins three or four times as I longe.

I start longer and ask the horse to warm up forward and stretching. I will shorten and raise, spiral in and spiral out to begin to elevate the shoulder and build muscle. Depending on the horse I may then do some collection in hand. I switch direction each time. Then I finish on long side reins allowing stretch. Even in a stretching posture you can spiral in and out and stretch up and our or down and out.

It abdutely amazes me when a trained horse comes to me and they think longing is galloping around full speed pulling on the longe line.

I happen to think that not every time a horse builds muscle should it have to carry weight. However I also believe posture, carriage and balance are not improved with liberty work.

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Re: why I find lungeing helpful

Postby Tsavo » Sat Jun 30, 2018 10:23 pm

I agree with Chisamba's approach. I was taught to lunge only a few years ago and it was an eye opener... how you hold the line, how you stand, how you adjust the side reins (I bought a pair finally).

In the article I posted there are a few things that are claimed to be a waste of time (free lunging is one). Once you know how to lunge correctly, it becomes obvious how powerful a technique it is to build a horse correctly and how it is nothing more than incorrect mileage or worse to not do it correctly.

I truly didn't know what I didn't know until I was taught.

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Re: why I find lungeing helpful

Postby StraightForward » Sun Jul 01, 2018 12:13 am

Chisamba wrote:I happen to think that not every time a horse builds muscle should it have to carry weight. However I also believe posture, carriage and balance are not improved with liberty work.


Yes to this. I got my full kit together and we had a productive lunging session today. Annabelle is at the point where she needs to learn to stay more connected in the T/C transitions. It seems more fair to me to have her work out the coordination and muscle to do so without me on her back (she still thought it was a little unfair). With the sliding reins a little longer, she was also stretching F/D/O better than she can when I'm riding.

So thank you, Demi, for the nudge. I'll be more diligent about our lunge work and make use of the side reins on a regular basis.
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Re: why I find lungeing helpful

Postby demi » Sun Jul 01, 2018 1:50 am

piedmontfields wrote:
...MC, my guess is that this is the more elevated frame that Rocky can now spend some time in vs. the starting frame---but I'm sure Demi can explicate if she desires. Sometimes that change of frame is a real challenge to balance and thoroughness...



Yes, Piedmont actually looked at the other recent pictures I posted, and her guess pretty much explains the frame I have her in. I have lunged her in longer sidereins, but it is very hard to keep her from going on the forehand with longer reins. I've used sliding sidereins as well as lowering the position of the siedreins but still had the problem of her going on the forehand. And it's not a matter of sending her more forward, because she has natural forward and can go like a cutting horse, ie very quickly with her front end dropped down.

I am adding a picture to show how she stands naturally:
Image

So as Piedmont pointed out, changing the frame can be a real challenge to balance and throughness.

Thanks for everyone's input! It is all useful info. I will update after I talk to my trainer at my lesson on Monday.

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Re: why I find lungeing helpful

Postby kande50 » Sun Jul 01, 2018 9:54 am

Chisamba wrote:I happen to think that not every time a horse builds muscle should it have to carry weight. However I also believe posture, carriage and balance are not improved with liberty work.


I think the benefits from liberty work are more about coordination and balance than muscle strengthening, although of course, horses build different muscles in different ways as their balance changes.

The most useful work for my horse, who prefers to motorcycle around corners, has been progressively smaller and smaller circles and corners, because not only does he have to learn how to bend to the inside to negotiate them (no bend, no click) but I think the results are much closer to the ideal (the horse looking like he's doing it on his own) than the results from the more traditional pressure and release approaches.

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Re: why I find lungeing helpful

Postby Kyra's Mom » Sun Jul 01, 2018 4:16 pm

Chisamba wrote:I happen to think that not every time a horse builds muscle should it have to carry weight. However I also believe posture, carriage and balance are not improved with liberty work.


I guess I have to disagree on this one. It is difficult and you need to be very precise and particular but most definitely, you can affect posture, carriage and balance with liberty work and lunging without side reins.

I have spent a lot of time working Kyra without side reins. She had most of the last year off of riding. All I could do (due to my issues) is lunging and ground work. She blew me away when I started working her again and found I could get lovely, correct canter to walk transitions when we started canter work again. I incorporate a lot of rein back (ok, backing up as there are no reins) in my lunging work and that absolutely shifts balance. Lately, as she has gotten some base of fitness, I have been putting her on a big circle and having her canter forward then half halting and going toward collected canter. Again, she is lowering her haunches and raising her withers in the 'collected' canter and when I ask for forward, it is coming from behind. you could paint the bridle and reins on her and she would look like a ridden horse. Some days those moments are fleeting then we go work on something else. If I want changes in balance and can't get them in with a couple reasonable requests, I do not continue on that course. I also do a lot of sideways work and work in hand. All without side reins and I am happy with her effort. I do have the halter (and sometimes bridle w/out side reins) so there is some shaping possible.

I can also get changes in balance in the round pen at total liberty (most days that is...she does have her moments when she would rather not be there and all she does is show me her butt:P ). I can get her alignment sorted out (no looking to the outside) and when she gets it, she goes into a lovely stretch that she wouldn't or couldn't do if she were not aligned and balanced. In the round pen, we do a lot of backup work with forward in walk, trot or canter. It really does help the balance.

Anyway, I feel it is absolutely possible but it does take timing and tact. I haven't been able to ride much in the last couple years so was able to commit a LOT of time to it. For the occasional lunger...I would say it isn't going to happen at liberty or sans side reins. Me, I have had lots of time to work on it and get the results I want.

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Re: why I find lungeing helpful

Postby kande50 » Sun Jul 01, 2018 5:33 pm

The #1 reason I lunge/do liberty work is so that I can see the whole horse, because one of my goals was to learn to see the difference between pseudo-collection and true collection.

Now that I'm pretty sure I can see it I might be able to see it in hand too, but I couldn't before because I needed to look at the whole horse to tell, and I couldn't see the whole horse when I was working in hand.

I can see it with most horses when they get beyond the initial stages, but not when they're first starting to collect, which is when I needed to be able to see it if I was ever going to be able to get it.

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Re: why I find lungeing helpful

Postby Chisamba » Sun Jul 01, 2018 11:42 pm

Kyra's Mom wrote:
Chisamba wrote:I happen to think that not every time a horse builds muscle should it have to carry weight. However I also believe posture, carriage and balance are not improved with liberty work.


I guess I have to disagree on this one. It is difficult and you need to be very precise and particular but most definitely, you can affect posture, carriage and balance with liberty work and lunging without side reins.

I have spent a lot of time working Kyra without side reins. She had most of the last year off of riding. All I could do (due to my issues) is lunging and ground work. She blew me away when I started working her again and found I could get lovely, correct canter to walk transitions when we started canter work again. I incorporate a lot of rein back (ok, backing up as there are no reins) in my lunging work and that absolutely shifts balance. Lately, as she has gotten some base of fitness, I have been putting her on a big circle and having her canter forward then half halting and going toward collected canter. Again, she is lowering her haunches and raising her withers in the 'collected' canter and when I ask for forward, it is coming from behind. you could paint the bridle and reins on her and she would look like a ridden horse. Some days those moments are fleeting then we go work on something else. If I want changes in balance and can't get them in with a couple reasonable requests, I do not continue on that course. I also do a lot of sideways work and work in hand. All without side reins and I am happy with her effort. I do have the halter (and sometimes bridle w/out side reins) so there is some shaping possible.

I can also get changes in balance in the round pen at total liberty (most days that is...she does have her moments when she would rather not be there and all she does is show me her butt:P ). I can get her alignment sorted out (no looking to the outside) and when she gets it, she goes into a lovely stretch that she wouldn't or couldn't do if she were not aligned and balanced. In the round pen, we do a lot of backup work with forward in walk, trot or canter. It really does help the balance.

Anyway, I feel it is absolutely possible but it does take timing and tact. I haven't been able to ride much in the last couple years so was able to commit a LOT of time to it. For the occasional lunger...I would say it isn't going to happen at liberty or sans side reins. Me, I have had lots of time to work on it and get the results I want.

Susan


The quote you used was specific to at liberty work.

I read you comments and thought you referenced longing? Was this liberty work or longing work. ? A mixture? Using a round pen. I can see how that would work. But you could paint a bridle on a mustang at liberty and it look like levada, or passage, if you took enough photos. Most horses in play will offer moments of these. It's being able to translate it into getting it when you ask under saddle that is difficult

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Re: why I find lungeing helpful

Postby Chisamba » Mon Jul 02, 2018 2:20 am

Karas mom, I have had the pleasure of discovering new to me, Techniques, because of mine or the horses physical restrictions. Well done for making the best !

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Re: why I find lungeing helpful

Postby Kyra's Mom » Mon Jul 02, 2018 6:35 am

Chisamba, I do lunging *or* RP. I still need the RP for liberty. Although we have a nice, smaller oval indoor, I usually can't get her to "stick" with me and due to said physical issues, I am not mobile enough to convince her otherwise. For lunging, I am usually in our large outdoor arena but my lunge line is a very light 3/8 inch cord rope. 3 years ago, I couldn't use that with her. It didn't have enough "life" to change something quick enough and frankly, she didn't respect it very much as in...whee, there is nothing there. Now, it is perfectly adequate and most times, I do have a nice soft but consistent contact with her. I also found a halter I adore and use for all our ground work, including most of our in-hand work. She has worked wonderfully in it, every since I got it. It is called a Hybrid halter. https://shop.horseeducation.com/collect ... rid-halter. A lot of the work I do is based on Karen Rohlf's program and that has been helpful in developing exercises that actually address balance, relaxation and energy issues all of which develop better self carriage as time goes on.

I can't tell you too much how well it relates to riding since I haven't been able to do much of that in the last 2 years. I do know that one day a couple months ago I was testing a bit on her and gritted my teeth and did some trot and canter. To save my back some, I asked her to walk from canter. I didn't expect much from a fairly out of shape mare...that she could collect enough to do it without falling on her face but lo and behold...half halt, half halt, half halt...walk. Maybe not quite a feather settling to earth but really better than anything she gave me 3 years ago when we were working on second level stuff. The transition was equally nice on the other rein. I don't think if I hadn't been doing the ground work, she would have or could have done it that nicely cold turkey. Currently almost all our work is in walk for the sake of my back and she is doing some very nice work. SI, HI, renver and half pass.I don't think those would be as nice as they are if she wasn't in good balance in all the lunging and ground work we have done.

My circumstances are a little different from most RIDERS...I haven't been able to do much of that. I really prefer to ride but that just hasn't been very possible when you are sitting on a damned spike :o . I was so looking forward to be able to get back to real riding after getting the tailbone addressed when I mucked up my back. It is a good thing I enjoy the ground work...yes indeed :D .

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Re: why I find lungeing helpful

Postby Dresseur » Mon Jul 02, 2018 12:31 pm

I obviously longe. I also subscribe to Chisamba's way of thinking and approach - it's purposeful. It is not to blow off steam. If the horse is on the longe, they are listening and working, not playing. I primarily use it as an extension of training - it works wonders for horses that want to be behind the leg, and to some degree you can address things like curling as well. I also use it as a way to see the whole horse, and as a diagnostic tool... if I see that the horse slows down every time I touch the line, it's probably slowing for hh. If I see that every transition is in slow motion, so will my ridden transitions. I move the horses around quite a bit too - spirals in and out, bits of straight lines. It's a system that I've seen work time and time again and I whole heartedly subscribe to it.

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Re: why I find lungeing helpful

Postby Tsavo » Mon Jul 02, 2018 12:52 pm

I agree with what Dresseur said.

I obviously use lunging extensively in my horse's rehab... seeing how he is traveling, marrying that to how he feels under saddle, trying to look for differences in movement between having weight and no weight in the saddle, visual record of change in addition to the ridden record, etc. In rehab especially, everything on the lungeline is as close to correct as possible in terms of posture, balance, etc. I hold the line the same as I hold a rein. My upper body is in the same posture as when I ride. I aim for the same amount in my hand. Anything less is not only wasting time but probably harmful.

Lunging is actually easier because small changes in how you stand or direction you stand w.r.t. the horse become aids. But the body control when standing on the ground is obviously not as challenging as in the saddle so the lunging is a good option for people to help their horse even if they don't have the body control to rehab from the saddle.

The reason my horse is progressing in his rehab is in no small measure due to the lunging. Had I not been taught how to do it, I probably could not have rehabbed my horse.

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Re: why I find lungeing helpful

Postby demi » Mon Jul 02, 2018 9:19 pm

StraightForward wrote:What I think MC may have been looking at, is how Rocky looks a little contracted around the withers, so the neck shows elevation without a corresponding degree of lowering of the haunches. You were there and know your horse, so you know if she looked to be honestly recycling the energy, but that is the impression I get from the photo, and based just on that, would probably lower the SRs one place, but to me it's a very slight impression...


Straightforward, this is almost exactly what my trainer said today when I showed her the pics and vid of Rocky’s lungeing. (I bolded the text where I took your quote).She stressed that it was just slightly, as you did. She said she wasn’t backing off the contact but rather coming above it at times, and that was visible by the front of the withers. She said to lower the side-reins one place, and to shorten them one hole! I must have looked :o because she said not to worry if she comes behind the vertical at times on the lunge, just send her forward and she will come back to the vertical.

She also said to add lots of trot canter transitions on the lunge, as well as a good bit of canter. I asked if I should lengthen the reins for canter and she said no, keep them the same length. Rocky did THE BEST EVER today and trainer was very pleased with her. She said the contact at the trot was very good, and the only time she had a problem was the transition to canter. Even that was so slight she said I probably didn’t even see it, and she was right. I didn’t. Once in the canter she was blowing in rhythm and fully cooperating. Trainer said she did everything she asked, willingly and without her usual opinions. It was so nice to watch my little horse looking like a real dressage horse!

She said to continue lungeing as much as I need to, until I am riding in full swing again. I asked if it was ok to lunge once a week even after I am riding and she said yes.

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Re: why I find lungeing helpful

Postby demi » Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:43 pm

I want to add that just because this is the course I am taking with my own horse, doesn’t mean that I dont see the value in other methods. We are individuals and so are our horses.

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Re: why I find lungeing helpful

Postby Chisamba » Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:57 pm

I recently bought a horse off a hack line. He's a bit thin, and stiff and under muscled.

First thing I did was teach him to work on the longe line. Walk, trot and canter on verbal and gestural prompt. No side reins, simple circles for short periods.ir has told me a lot about his way of traveling, his attitude and co operation, and it's starting to build muscle without weight on his undermuscled topline.

I find it very positive

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Re: why I find lungeing helpful

Postby Tuddy » Tue Jul 03, 2018 9:01 pm

demi wrote:I want to add that just because this is the course I am taking with my own horse, doesn’t mean that I dont see the value in other methods. We are individuals and so are our horses.


I like this. :)

That is all. :)

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Re: why I find lungeing helpful

Postby demi » Thu Aug 02, 2018 10:27 pm

These were pics from July 23 after I made several changes to my lungeing program (after reading the input from some on this thread, and after talking to trainer and showing her vid and pics.) The changes were as follows:

1. dug up and old cavesson and fitted it to her
2. made new adjustable sidereins (big improvement!)
3. lowered the siderein position on the surcingle
4. Shortened the sidereins one hole (although, I start with a longer rein and then gradually shorten to the final length)
(I still have my regular riding reins attached to the bit and the top of the surcingle.)

As sensitive as Rocky is, she can still take a very strong hold of the bit. My trainer has no problem with this but I still do if I ask for more forward than I can handle. Well, of course, the horse needs to be ridden forward. So, by lungeing her forward in the sidereins occasionally, she is much more respectful of the bit, and when I get on, I can ask for the forward and she doesn't try to take control of the bit. The problem goes away for several days to a week or so after trainer has ridden her, and has gotten a lot better over all, but I still feel the occasional lunging is helping a lot.


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Re: why I find lungeing helpful

Postby StraightForward » Fri Aug 03, 2018 2:45 am

I like how that looks! I will try to get some video next time I lunge Annabelle. I've got Lauffer reins for her now and have started lunging her with the reins through the bit instead of the cavesson rings. I also bought a rigid-nosed serrata and that is helping with getting better flexion and bend on the circle. Today was interesting. She started out with her mincy western pleasure jog, then I got her moving into a nice, longer frame. She couldn't seem to work out how to make the T/C transition within the confines of the very loose reins and came up with some acrobatic solutions. Then she remembered that she hadn't gotten her weekly zooming session out, and started some airs above ground. However, towards the end of the session, with the extra energy, she produced a really impressive, uphill trot that I've never seen before. With that I stopped, took her tack off and she proceeded to do Thoroughbred zooming across the arena until she was in a lather. I think with the airs she adjusted something in her sacrum though, because she was suddenly able to round her back and really step under, so maybe that just saved me the $100 for this month's bodywork session. :lol:
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Re: why I find lungeing helpful

Postby Rosie B » Fri Aug 03, 2018 12:01 pm

demi - that looks MUCH better than the earlier photos you posted. It also looks like she's developed more topline? Or maybe it's just how she's carrying herself, but either way, good for you!

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Re: why I find lungeing helpful

Postby Dresseur » Fri Aug 03, 2018 2:36 pm

Demi, well done. That looks very appropriate in terms of placement of equipment and movement. One thing, and without vid is hard to tell, but make sure she's trucking along - the second picture she looks pretty ideal. The first looks a tad backed off and short in the stride.

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Re: why I find lungeing helpful

Postby demi » Fri Aug 03, 2018 3:15 pm

Thanks for the input, SF, Rosie, and Dresseur! Your comments are encouraging.

I look forward to video of Annabelle lungeing. I had to google Lauffer reins and it looks like what i call sliding sidereins. I had a pair several years ago that I made out of an old old set of western split reins. The leather was so old tho, I could only punch a few holes in it and they were hard to adjust. In retrospect, I am pretty sure I didnt know how to adjust them at the time, and I just gave up on them.

Dresseur, Rocky was definitely backed off in that first pic. The pics are screenshots from video, but the video was not one I wanted to post. Rocky clearly knows that when I am holding the lungeline, the lunge whip and the camera(phone) that I’m not coordinated enough to enforce forward! I was clucking to her like a chicken all through the vid. A couple of times i put the phone in my pocket and gave the lunge whip a few cracks to get her going. I had probably just done that before the second pic. Usually forward isn’t an issue with her, but the heat of the summer is wearing us both down.

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Re: why I find lungeing helpful

Postby Kyra's Mom » Sat Aug 04, 2018 4:22 am

Good work. I find a decent lunging cavesson or arrangement that doesn't attach the lunge line to the bit or over the head and through the bit ring to be #1. Otherwise, so much pressure from the side on the bit and I haven't seen any horse that is really comfortable with that arrangement. When Kyra was younger and stronger (and flakier :roll: ), I used an arrangement I got from a Baron Von Blixen Fincke tape (yes, a tape :lol: ). The line went through the bit and wrapped around the cavesson so that the line was guided through the bit ring but not directly attached to it. Now I use my Hybrid halter or a lunging cavesson. She is much more civil these days, having a bit of age on her.

Much better posture from Rocky so the work will be much more fruitful.

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Re: why I find lungeing helpful

Postby demi » Sat Aug 04, 2018 12:38 pm

Kyra's Mom wrote:Good work. I find a decent lunging cavesson or arrangement that doesn't attach the lunge line to the bit or over the head and through the bit ring to be #1.

Susan


Yes, I now see the importance of his. I never liked the nylon lungeing cavesson that I have, but Rocky’s head is so tiny I didn’t like the heavy leather “professional” type either. I made some adjuststments to the one I have so it would fit better. I didnt like how tight I had to make it so it wouldn’t twist so I put fleece under the critical parts. Since the most recent pictures, I’ve added fleece to the strap that goes under her jowl, and then tied the jowl strap to the chin strap so the jowl strap can’t ride up. It still twists a little if she does her acrobats :roll: ...

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Re: why I find lungeing helpful

Postby Ryeissa » Sun Aug 05, 2018 5:03 pm

Sent pm.

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Re: why I find lungeing helpful

Postby demi » Sun Aug 05, 2018 5:41 pm

Ryeissa wrote:Sent pm.


Your pm was a very interesting response to this thread. If you want to cut and paste it to the thread, it’s fine with me, and I do think it would add some interesting thoughts to the discussion. I’ll respond either way. Thanks for you input.

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Re: why I find lungeing helpful

Postby Ryeissa » Sun Aug 05, 2018 6:36 pm

Sure go ahead! Thanks

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Re: why I find lungeing helpful

Postby Ryeissa » Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:27 pm

I'm going to be the voice of dissent and say I like the first set more. Yes I get that you are saying he was backed off. Let me say why I like that set posture wise.
There is more articulation of the pelvis and the sternum is more up.
In the new set he is very downhill and low in the poll. Look how far out the hind leg is in the second newer set of photos vs the first. THere is more weight bearing on the first one. The inside hind has more tone and lift in the first set.

I get exactly why you guys like the second set better, but I feel like I could deal with the horse being a wee bit too high vs too low. That is more desiraable and it is a stage they go in when they are figuring out collection, Being IFV doesn't bother me as much as it used to, I see it as positive. There still seems to be a connection to the bit, it's not a hollow horse. A heavy shouldered horse like this should be encouraged to come up in the poll. In the first set there is still a nice filling in front of the withers and there is "tone" in the topline. The strides show more energy- there is a bit of flair to the strides. the second set feels more daisy cutter flatter movement. There is more angle to the hock in the first set.

It depends on where you want the horse and the goals of that horse. I want collection, so I ride for more uphill. Longing low and closed doesn't help my horse.

Just a few thoughts, and I of course have never ridden or seen this horse in person. Some horses do need to be encouraged to take a hold. I'm just a fan of the more poll high work.

Im admittedly late to the party, so glad things are progressing. Just adding my comments in more of a learning/discussion aspect.

My light bulb came when I figured how to ride up and connected. its hard. After they get over the TL hill they get lighter/too light for a bit then we all sort out these things. Had I always come back to how I rode at TL i"d never learn how to ride with an elevated sternum. At some point you need to ride more up or you never get anywhere :)

PS_ my lenthenings were not there if I rode in a closed way. I had to elevate the front before I got lengtheneings. its impossible

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Re: why I find lungeing helpful

Postby demi » Sun Aug 05, 2018 10:39 pm

I agree with much that Ryeissa is saying. BUT I also think that Rocky needs to develop more topline. And this will (hopefully) occur with the lower neck posture that some on the board have approved. I agree with Rye, that she is more on the forehand in the lower neck posture, but since I am only working in this posture part of the time, I hope that she won’t lose that lighter quality that she has when she is allowed “up and open”. It’s a trade off. I really like how she can lower her hind quarters, and lift her sternum. NOW, if I can get that affect while at the same time keeping her working “over the back”, she will be a joy to ride. And really, she is SO much more enjoyable to ride than she was a couple of years ago when it was a continual struggle to keep her from being too much on the forehand. As Rye points out, she is a heavy shoulders horse. She was bred to be a cow pony and the heavy shoulders are an asset in roping. (Don’t let’s get into roping :o )

She does take a contact, even when she is up and open. While not a steady, consistent contact, it is still a measurable contact and she is not posed. If I was a better rider, I think I could get the contact I am seeking with her in the up and open postition, but for now, I need that lower neck posture for two reasons: 1.) to teach her respect for the bit (NO, Rocky, you cant escape the contact by going above the bit!) and 2.) to develop the muscle of the topline.

Time will tell.

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Re: why I find lungeing helpful

Postby piedmontfields » Wed Aug 08, 2018 12:10 am

You know, what I love about your photos is that there is variety of posture and form. Maybe because I'm just off another Charles clinic (other thread), but C H A N G E is what trains a horse and Rocky looks to be embracing that. She is your dressage horse!


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