About that S von Dietze comment about posting trot

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About that S von Dietze comment about posting trot

Postby Tsavo » Sat Jul 14, 2018 8:05 pm

I got my book back and looked up the quote.

I can't remember what MC said about my recollection of the quote but this is a direct quote from "Balance in Movement", p. 147...

"Only very few good riders really master the rising trot to perfection."


Hence my not so tongue in cheek placement of posting trot at he highest level of the rider training pyramid. :!:

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Re: About that S von Dietze comment about posting trot

Postby musical comedy » Sat Jul 14, 2018 8:44 pm

I'll counter with "only very few good riders really master ANYTHING to perfection". Any really, as knowledgeable and wonderful as Von Dietz may be (according to many of you), she is just one person with an opinion.

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Re: About that S von Dietze comment about posting trot

Postby Tsavo » Sat Jul 14, 2018 9:02 pm

Yes I realize she qualified the comment to death but I don't recall her saying that about other things. She said it about posting trot though.

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Re: About that S von Dietze comment about posting trot

Postby StraightForward » Sat Jul 14, 2018 9:04 pm

Well, I was thinking this morning about making a post (ha!) about posting trot, so can it be this one?

I'll be brave and put up some video for critique tonight.

Assuming the rider is balanced enough to not be pulling herself up by the reins, or plopping harshly into the saddle, what are the common pitfalls of rising trot? What are common improvements that can be made. What adaptations can the rider use to address issues with the horse's trot?
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Re: About that S von Dietze comment about posting trot

Postby musical comedy » Sat Jul 14, 2018 9:13 pm

StraightForward wrote:I'll be brave and put up some video for critique tonight.
Before you even put it up, I know I will like it because I like the way you ride. It's probably because you have a hunter background?? I especially like your forward hands.

Rising trot pitfalls? Tsvavo, does SVD say what they are? If she is going to make a statement that few people rise well, then she ought to say the faults she sees.

The way I see it, if the horse moves well and evenly and is supple, then the posting trot is fine. The horse is the judge.

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Re: About that S von Dietze comment about posting trot

Postby musical comedy » Sat Jul 14, 2018 9:35 pm

I have the SVD book "Rider and Horse Back to Back" There are several pages on rising trot w/exercises. Too much info to type here, but it seems it is more focused on novice riders. I'll type some of it below:

VonDietz wrote:Even though rising trot is usually one of the first tasks a beginner has to master when sitting on a horse, you seldom see it perfected because its demands on the rider's rhythm and balanced are very high (see photos in book).

It's important not to be behind or in front of the horse's movement with your upper body. Riders who try hard to keep their upper body straight (as required in dressage) often find their balance is behind the horse's movement.

How far you have to take your upper body forward to follow the movement depends on functional aspects of trotting, not some standardized criteria. Most important is that you keep your balance while the horse is moving forward.

The degree to which someone can lean forward depends on body proportion (especially the length ratio between thigh and lower leg), stirrup length, level of training of the horse, and your goal as a rider. As a general rule, you can say that the shorter the stirrups, the further forward the upper body will lean in rising trot.

Getting good at rising trot requires that the rhythm of trot becomes second nature. Rising trot brings to light the close connection between balance and rhythm in movement. Since you need to constantly move, the slightest loss of balance will cause you to fall behind the horse's movement. As this occurs quite often, some instructors hve decided not to school rising trot at all. This decision, however, robs the riders of a highly useful tool when training because rising trot improves the equine back and is gentle on the human back too.

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Re: About that S von Dietze comment about posting trot

Postby Tsavo » Sat Jul 14, 2018 10:02 pm

StraightForward wrote:Well, I was thinking this morning about making a post (ha!) about posting trot, so can it be this one?

I'll be brave and put up some video for critique tonight.

Assuming the rider is balanced enough to not be pulling herself up by the reins, or plopping harshly into the saddle, what are the common pitfalls of rising trot? What are common improvements that can be made. What adaptations can the rider use to address issues with the horse's trot?


Yes of course you can use this thread.

She discusses posting trot in numerous places in Balance in Movement like MC said she does in the other book. She has no index so I will just list what I can find easily for pitfalls.

She says the following:

- refers to posting trot as a difficult balancing act.
- many basic seat and balance problems can be diagnosed with posting trot.
- When learning it is okay to lean slightly forward. The vertical upper body is an advanced balance exercise. (Hmmm... I worked very hard to get a vertical upper body only to be gigged on it in a lesson.)
- Many riders can only contain and influence the horse in the sit phase which can lead to a pumping lower leg.
- particularly difficult to maintain the secure seat in rising trot. (She has a long description of secure seat which includes being "glued" to the saddle but I would say it is just staying on with balance alone.)
- rising trot minus secure seat lets the horse evade the aids.

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Re: About that S von Dietze comment about posting trot

Postby Chisamba » Sun Jul 15, 2018 4:52 am

musical comedy wrote:I'll counter with "only very few good riders really master ANYTHING to perfection". Any really, as knowledgeable and wonderful as Von Dietz may be (according to many of you), she is just one person with an opinion.


And apparently a pretty stringent one about posting. My opinion here is an average imperfect posting trot is still more comfortable for the horse than an imperfect sitting trot.

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Re: About that S von Dietze comment about posting trot

Postby StraightForward » Sun Jul 15, 2018 6:57 pm

OK, here is a sample of posting trot from our ride on Friday morning. I see some things I would change, but curious what others think:

https://youtu.be/PzEjMITpyIA
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Re: About that S von Dietze comment about posting trot

Postby StraightForward » Sun Jul 15, 2018 7:16 pm

Here is a video of Jeremy Steinberg with several minutes of posting trot at the beginning. Of course his just warming up and not trying to influence the horse too much: https://youtu.be/EMZL5txbjgg
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Re: About that S von Dietze comment about posting trot

Postby StraightForward » Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:06 pm

Tsavo wrote:The vertical upper body is an advanced balance exercise. (Hmmm... I worked very hard to get a vertical upper body only to be gigged on it in a lesson.)


What did your instructor say? Were you getting left behind the motion or was the instructor of the opinion that a more forward position be used for posting, or something else?

My instructor told me in the last lesson or two that I need to use the sit phase a little more, and I think being close to vertical is needed for that sit moment to effectively drive the horse forward. She hasn't said anything else about my position or posting in general.
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Re: About that S von Dietze comment about posting trot

Postby musical comedy » Sun Jul 15, 2018 9:11 pm

Tsavo wrote:She says the following:
- When learning it is okay to lean slightly forward. The vertical upper body is an advanced balance exercise. (Hmmm... I worked very hard to get a vertical upper body only to be gigged on it in a lesson.)
Well, she sort of contradicts herself based on what she writes in my book. Did you bother to read my direct quote from book? The rider's conformation plays a role in how straight or forward one is when posting. There is no right or wrong way; it depends on various factors. The key is being able to stay in balance with the horse.

It's important not to be behind or in front of the horse's movement with your upper body. Riders who try hard to keep their upper body straight (as required in dressage) often find their balance is behind the horse's movement.

How far you have to take your upper body forward to follow the movement depends on functional aspects of trotting, not some standardized criteria. Most important is that you keep your balance while the horse is moving forward.

The degree to which someone can lean forward depends on body proportion (especially the length ratio between thigh and lower leg), stirrup length, level of training of the horse, and your goal as a rider. As a general rule, you can say that the shorter the stirrups, the further forward the upper body will lean in rising trot.

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Re: About that S von Dietze comment about posting trot

Postby Chisamba » Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:19 am

Straightforward, I am so NOT a guru on biomechanics. Your posting seems functional to me.

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Re: About that S von Dietze comment about posting trot

Postby Tsavo » Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:30 am

StraightForward wrote:What did your instructor say? Were you getting left behind the motion or was the instructor of the opinion that a more forward position be used for posting, or something else?

May instructor told me in the last lesson or two that I need to use the sit phase a little more, and I think being close to vertical is needed for that sit moment to effectively drive the horse forward. She hasn't said anything else about my position or posting in general.


She suggested I was blocking some of the forward. I was not getting left behind. Although I was not feeling any problem with forward I have to say that when I posted forward slightly, the horse I lesson on may have been a little more forward. That horse comes out forward and has correct training. But it wasn't a big change when I leaned forward slightly. She also said staying vertical is incorrect and leaning forward a bit in the post is correct per se.

I think you may be right about sitting more vertical addressing the short sit time.

I tried to post some pictures from a clinic I took a few years ago where I am clearly posting vertically and there were no comments about forward or it being incorrect. I am on a tab and can't resize them. I will send them to my kid to resize and send back. If that happens I will post them.

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Re: About that S von Dietze comment about posting trot

Postby Tsavo » Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:35 am

MC I read what you wrote. She is clearly using some of the same material in both books.

I agree she is possibly being a little inconsistent. Vertical torso in the posting either is or isn't something everyone should shoot for and accomplish given enough effort irrespective of rider anatomy.

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Re: About that S von Dietze comment about posting trot

Postby musical comedy » Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:45 am

The USDF Rider Test wants the torso slightly in front of the vertical when doing rising trot. Scroll down to the bottom of link. Of course, this
is again only the opinion of USDF, so take that for what it's worth.

https://www.usef.org/forms-pubs/0-C5_tW ... rider-test

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Re: About that S von Dietze comment about posting trot

Postby Dresseur » Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:22 pm

IMO posting also has to change per the horse and rider combo, and I think that the rider conformation plays a large roll in where the torso can be in relation to vertical.

My rule of thumb is that everything should be positioned in such a way that when the rider is at the top of their post, they can stand in balance for a few strides. It's a self-correcting test. Personally, I tend to post fairly vertically, my torso is so long that it easily puts me ahead or behind the motion with just a small angle change. However I use that on purpose from time to time depending on the horse. Horses that are behind me, I can "chase" forward by coming a bit more IFV and posting more aggressively. Horses that want to speed away, I can slow them by posting slower and more vertically. Many of the shorter torso riders I know seem to be a bit more inclined forward - posting too vertically seems to put them behind the motion.

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Re: About that S von Dietze comment about posting trot

Postby Tsavo » Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:03 pm

musical comedy wrote:The USDF Rider Test wants the torso slightly in front of the vertical when doing rising trot. Scroll down to the bottom of link. Of course, this
is again only the opinion of USDF, so take that for what it's worth.

https://www.usef.org/forms-pubs/0-C5_tW ... rider-test


That is consistent with what my instructor said. She is a gold medalist, has many students, and knows rules inside and out.

My sense is there is probably no reason to be vertical in the post. That said, I think it is analogous to staying vertical in a canter depart... If you have enough core and poise to not get left in walk-canter then it it not a huge stretch to stay vertical in a posting trot. The reason I was doing it is because I think elite riders do it so it is something to focus on. I look for points like that to specifically try to copy.

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Re: About that S von Dietze comment about posting trot

Postby Chisamba » Mon Jul 16, 2018 2:16 pm

I dont post vertical and dont a pure too. On the couple of occasions clinicians have requested it, I found it robbed me of my ability to go to a more influential trot in lengthenings

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Re: About that S von Dietze comment about posting trot

Postby musical comedy » Mon Jul 16, 2018 2:21 pm

Chisamba wrote:I dont post vertical and dont a pure too. On the couple of occasions clinicians have requested it, I found it robbed me of my ability to go to a more influential trot in lengthenings
"don't a pure"? I don't post vertical either. It would be pretty impossible for me to do...unless...I was riding with really short stirrups in a jumping saddle. My conformation flat-out makes it impossible.

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Re: About that S von Dietze comment about posting trot

Postby Chisamba » Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:58 pm

Sorry, I'm not sure what words I allowed my phone to distort. I was trying to say that I do not aspire to post vertically.

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Re: About that S von Dietze comment about posting trot

Postby Tsavo » Tue Jul 17, 2018 2:44 pm

sha.jpg
sha.jpg (78.02 KiB) Viewed 497 times


I hope to hell I was doing something here given my whack hands and him kicking up dust behind.

I like his head and tail positions in this photo. They are correct... head slightly IFOV and tail carried a little away from the body.

This was two or three years ago and while I was getting fit there, I have improved more. That day was hot as hell and we both were dripping sweat throughout the clinic.

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Re: About that S von Dietze comment about posting trot

Postby piedmontfields » Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:34 pm

The big thing I took away from S v D in person was that if you are posting *through* your elbows, you are riding with a backward hand.

A lot of otherwise talented riders do this.

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Re: About that S von Dietze comment about posting trot

Postby musical comedy » Tue Jul 17, 2018 11:46 pm

piedmontfields wrote:The big thing I took away from S v D in person was that if you are posting *through* your elbows, you are riding with a backward hand.
I don't know what posting through the elbows is.

I think this was taken at the clinic you audited. I can't hear the instruction, nor figure out the pupose of the exercise. I'm going to guess that the rider needs to be more supple on her outside rein.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RC4TATwnjQ

Eliza Sydnor

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cz0JaOqI3hM

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Re: About that S von Dietze comment about posting trot

Postby Chisamba » Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:45 am

Has anyone seen this person ride?

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Re: About that S von Dietze comment about posting trot

Postby khall » Wed Jul 18, 2018 11:09 am

Eliza Sydnor? http://www.elizasydnordressage.com/about-eliza.html daughter of Cindy Sydnor.

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Re: About that S von Dietze comment about posting trot

Postby piedmontfields » Wed Jul 18, 2018 11:10 am

I wasn't at the clinic you posted MC.

I believe "posting through your elbows" = leaving your elbows behind your hips on your up post. I think some people do this in an attempt to stabilize the hand.

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Re: About that S von Dietze comment about posting trot

Postby musical comedy » Wed Jul 18, 2018 11:14 am

piedmontfields wrote:I wasn't at the clinic you posted MC.

I believe "posting through your elbows" = leaving your elbows behind your hips on your up post. I think some people do this in an attempt to stabilize the hand.
Thanks for the explanation, but I still can't visualize it. Perhaps someone can find a photo showing it.

The reason I thought you were at this clinic is that it was held the same dates as the JJTate on and in NC.

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Re: About that S von Dietze comment about posting trot

Postby piedmontfields » Wed Jul 18, 2018 11:17 am

JJ Tate's farm is in *SC* (about 4 hours from the Sydnor farm in *NC*).

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Re: About that S von Dietze comment about posting trot

Postby kande50 » Wed Jul 18, 2018 11:46 am

Dresseur wrote:
My rule of thumb is that everything should be positioned in such a way that when the rider is at the top of their post, they can stand in balance for a few strides. It's a self-correcting test.


Interesingly, this happens to me fairly often, but not necessarily all the time. Not sure why not, but when I get to it I can feel it, and can then hold the up position effortlessly. Once I'm there I can drop the reins and stay up there, so it has nothing to do with using the reins for balance.

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Re: About that S von Dietze comment about posting trot

Postby Tsavo » Wed Jul 18, 2018 1:13 pm

MC, imagine reins that are too long and then you post. If you don't allow the reins to go slack, your elbows can be behind your body at the top.

Imagine my reins in the picture I posted being several nches longer with no slack. That would require my elbows to be behind my torso.

By the way, I think I was shortening my reins in my picture. At least I hope that was happening given my hands.
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Re: About that S von Dietze comment about posting trot

Postby Tsavo » Wed Jul 18, 2018 1:21 pm

The other thing that I think my not be clear is that my picture really doesn't illustrate the point. I think many people are vertical at the top of the post. I think the point is leaning forward to get to the top versus not doing that. I try to stay vertical at all times in the posting trot. This takes away momentum and uses core to train balance. It is directly analogous to what my gym trainer has me doing in the gym in holding positions for a second to take the momentum out. For example on the Captain's chair, people swing their legs and use momentum instead of core. Instead my trainer has me stop the movement at the bottom and top. It makes the exercise much harder but works the core much more.

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Re: About that S von Dietze comment about posting trot

Postby Chisamba » Wed Jul 18, 2018 1:30 pm

No , I meant von Dietz. Has anyone seen her post perfectly

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Re: About that S von Dietze comment about posting trot

Postby Tsavo » Wed Jul 18, 2018 1:34 pm

Chisamba wrote:No , I meant von Dietz. Has anyone seen her post perfectly


Post of the month nomination. :o

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Re: About that S von Dietze comment about posting trot

Postby musical comedy » Wed Jul 18, 2018 1:51 pm

Chisamba wrote:No , I meant von Dietz. Has anyone seen her post perfectly
I have not, but I suspect she is a good rider. She is wearing britches in those videos, so maybe she has gotten on some of the horses in the clinic. There are photos (and maybe video?) of Mary Wanless and let's just say she isn't someone I want to emulate. I guess maybe it goes back to being able to see the problem and addressing what needs corrected versus being able to do it yourself.

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Re: About that S von Dietze comment about posting trot

Postby piedmontfields » Thu Jul 19, 2018 3:11 am

She is a GP rider (from records) but I have not seen her ride so ? But her teaching was valuable to me. As I said in some post, her words/teachings were way beyond MW (but assumed that at a very basic level).

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Re: About that S von Dietze comment about posting trot

Postby Tsavo » Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:34 pm

musical comedy wrote:I think this was taken at the clinic you audited. I can't hear the instruction, nor figure out the pupose of the exercise. I'm going to guess that the rider needs to be more supple on her outside rein.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RC4TATwnjQ


I think you are correct about this.

It seems to me she was trying to get the rider into a spiral right seat nstead of blocking the horse on the outside.


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