Learning from dissection

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Learning from dissection

Postby khall » Sat Jul 21, 2018 4:28 am

https://www.facebook.com/EcoledeLegeret ... =3&theater

I've always wanted to attend an equine dissection. Having a BS in Biology I've done dissections on smaller animals and have seen full sized articulated equine skeletons. I've also been present for small animal surgeries and necropsy but I have never seen an equine dissection. (learned muscles on a cat cadaver)

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Re: Learning from dissection

Postby silk » Sat Jul 21, 2018 9:10 am

Having attended several (3 with Sharon, including my own horse last year and a good client's horse this year), I would highly recommend it. To truly understand why 'bad' [posture/movement/training/riding/handling] is bad for the horse, and why good is good. To see their physical limitations and problems. To see the results of GOOD care and horsemanship even in an injured or damaged body.

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Re: Learning from dissection

Postby Chisamba » Sat Jul 21, 2018 11:03 am

I have been present at several autopsy/necropsy, and of course slaughtered many pig, sheep, antelope, steers and yes, horses. (Injured horses euthanized with a bullet are still edible to dogs )

Like Khall my degree is biological sciences also included dissections.

I have never taken the opportunity to attend one from the POV of performance. However, I would be somewhat skeptical of the findings. Many times from x Ray's, horses with definite ring one or navicular changes move without obvious pain, and horses with very little changes are obviously in pain.

Still interesting.

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Re: Learning from dissection

Postby Tsavo » Sat Jul 21, 2018 1:48 pm

I am not a biologist but I suspect, like book reading, doing dissections never moved any needle on improving ridng.

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Re: Learning from dissection

Postby demi » Sat Jul 21, 2018 3:26 pm

Tsavo wrote:I am not a biologist but I suspect, like book reading, doing dissections never moved any needle on improving ridng.


Some people consider dressage an art and the deeper understanding of equine anatomy, gained from dissection, might have a great affect on their riding. Michealangelo studied cadavers for insight into anatomy. Do you think it “moved the needle” in his artwork? He certainly had a distinctive style of awesome muscular precision combined with beauty.

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Re: Learning from dissection

Postby Tsavo » Sat Jul 21, 2018 3:41 pm

I think the proprioception required to ride a large animal with effective and largely imperceptible aids is a different issue front an artistic genius. An apt analogy would be if an athlete, especially a golfer, would get better from doing human dissections. I think that query answers itself.

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Re: Learning from dissection

Postby Tsavo » Sat Jul 21, 2018 3:42 pm

If doing dissections helped then it would be included in riding schools. And people who did dissections would be advancing faster than those who didn't. How much money would anyone here bet on that outcome?

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Re: Learning from dissection

Postby kande50 » Sat Jul 21, 2018 4:29 pm

Dissections can help educate one on soundness issues, which could save one from putting more resources into a horse who is too damaged to be able to do what they'd like him to be able to do (not to mention the far more important issue of sparing horses from abuse).

Hard to say whether doing dissections could be a factor in faster progress, as there are so many factors to consider when evaluating rate of progress.

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Re: Learning from dissection

Postby exvet » Sat Jul 21, 2018 5:44 pm

Having a better understanding of both anatomy through dissection and biomechanics can only add to the toolbox. When I completed my anatomy course in vet school I had to learn which nerves innervated which muscles, the groups of muscles which worked together to produce which type of action, etc. It was also required to understand the appropriate or should I say Ideal articulation of each of the joints. Now having said all that, I don't think I"m necessarily a better rider because of 'that' knowledge. I've been on horses from the time I could walk and taking lessons from the age of 6; so, I think it's been the time and miles I've put in and having horses around in my life from the beginning (which also means I had easy access to multiple mentors). I do think this knowledge has made me a FAR BETTER horseman.

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Re: Learning from dissection

Postby Tsavo » Sat Jul 21, 2018 6:30 pm

I just think it stands to reason that if books and dissections majicked better proprioception, tact, and timing, everyone would be at GP. If there was some other way besides wet saddle pads and thoughtful experimentation we would know it by now. The world is still waiting.

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Re: Learning from dissection

Postby StraightForward » Sat Jul 21, 2018 8:26 pm

Tsavo wrote:I just think it stands to reason that if books and dissections majicked better proprioception, tact, and timing, everyone would be at GP. If there was some other way besides wet saddle pads and thoughtful experimentation we would know it by now. The world is still waiting.


I don't think it's a surefire way to GP, but I've certainly learned a lot through books, but only through reading a passage, then sitting in the saddle and applying it. I haven't had many lessons over the years, but my books have certainly helped me with my modest progress. People can have great proprioception, tact and timing and still the application can be wrong. We all learn differently, but I'd say that reading can help with the thoughtful experimentation piece, and also help a student get more out of lessons by providing interpretation and context for those observations, or instructions received in a lesson.

I'd love to attend a dissection, but really learned a lot from the Jillian Kreinbring workshop last year, and it affected my horse stewardship, if not my riding directly.

Not sure why you feel the need to be condescending about this.
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Re: Learning from dissection

Postby khall » Sat Jul 21, 2018 8:58 pm

Dissection is not "majikal" tsavo, it is science and curiosity. Jillian K worked with Hilary Clayton (I do believe you are a HC aficionado?) who I am sure has done many dissections to further her learning. I know Jillian has done dissections. It is information that we can learn from as riders, to better understand the anatomy of the creature that allows us to sit on them and guide them. What is biomechanics if not based on equine anatomy? Heck the most basic of the equine anatomy that makes a huge impact on how and why we work the horses the way we do is that their shoulders are narrower than their HQs, why we do lateral work to narrow and engage the base behind so the horse can carry themselves in a better sounder more uphill manner.

How weird IMO tsavo and chisamba are chiming in to just throw shade on what I would consider to be valuable information.

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Re: Learning from dissection

Postby Tsavo » Sat Jul 21, 2018 10:01 pm

StraightForward wrote:Not sure why you feel the need to be condescending about this.


I don't know where you got condescending from. There is obvious academic value in attending dissections.

I am just projecting my focus on riding and training onto the topic and suggesting that if that is the focus then an academic pursuit likely will disappoint.

You are a biologist and I am not surprised you would be interested in this subject. I am not and a lack of interest in dissection has held back no rider in history.

I regret bringing in the topic of riding and training on this thread about an academic subject. I apologize.

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Re: Learning from dissection

Postby Tsavo » Sat Jul 21, 2018 10:05 pm

khall wrote:Dissection is not "majikal" tsavo, it is science and curiosity. Jillian K worked with Hilary Clayton (I do believe you are a HC aficionado?) who I am sure has done many dissections to further her learning. I know Jillian has done dissections. It is information that we can learn from as riders, to better understand the anatomy of the creature that allows us to sit on them and guide them. What is biomechanics if not based on equine anatomy? Heck the most basic of the equine anatomy that makes a huge impact on how and why we work the horses the way we do is that their shoulders are narrower than their HQs, why we do lateral work to narrow and engage the base behind so the horse can carry themselves in a better sounder more uphill manner.

How weird IMO tsavo and chisamba are chiming in to just throw shade on what I would consider to be valuable information.


I am not throwing shade on this academic subject. You posted this in the training forum, not some other forum so I assumed you were trying to claim there is some value in, or nexus to, training and riding to equine dissections. I think I miscalculated about that and that you were not trying to claim that.

If anatomical knowledge was helpful Deb Bennett would be the best rider and trainer in the world.

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Re: Learning from dissection

Postby musical comedy » Sat Jul 21, 2018 11:00 pm

Tsavo wrote:If anatomical knowledge was helpful Deb Bennett would be the best rider and trainer in the world.
:lol: :lol: :lol: Can't help myself, this is funny.

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Re: Learning from dissection

Postby Kirby's Keeper » Sat Jul 21, 2018 11:10 pm

Just like you don't have to be a mechanic to drive a car, you don't have to understand equine anatomy to ride a horse. I was one of those kids that took things apart to see how they worked. I would jump at the opportunity to attend a dissection to actually see the how the structures interplay to allow the horse to move. To me it would cement the "why" of various exercises we use in training. I would think that it would also allow me to be more attuned to what structures the horse is using and how to influence them. If it isn't your thing then it isn't your thing but please don't dismiss it as uselesss.
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Re: Learning from dissection

Postby Tsavo » Sat Jul 21, 2018 11:10 pm

musical comedy wrote:
Tsavo wrote:If anatomical knowledge was helpful Deb Bennett would be the best rider and trainer in the world.
:lol: :lol: :lol: Can't help myself, this is funny.


Am I right or am I right?!?!? LOL

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Re: Learning from dissection

Postby StraightForward » Sun Jul 22, 2018 1:08 am

Tsavo wrote:
StraightForward wrote:Not sure why you feel the need to be condescending about this.


I don't know where you got condescending from. There is obvious academic value in attending dissections.


Your use of "majicked". No one is claiming magic, and there is a difference between magic and useful knowledge.

And the statement about everyone who reads becoming GP riders, and now the statement about Dr. Bennett. No one is saying that there is One Key to unlock riding stardom, but having comprehensive knowledge gives a solid foundation. The "majick" comes from a complex stew of talent, hard work, knowledge, good instruction, luck and a support system (financial and otherwise). I don't think it's useful to pooh pooh efforts to build one of the ingredients in that stew. One could just as easily say that lessons and clinics are useless because so few people who take lessons become GP riders.

If someone says that learning X improves their riding, I think you should believe them. It's condescending to say you know better than they do about their own learning process and its application to riding.

There are also many yardsticks with which to measure improvement in horsemanship, beyond advancing through dressage levels. I think after learning more about biomechanics I've become a more patient, sympathetic and thoughtful rider, which I'm sure my horses would agree is an improvement.
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Re: Learning from dissection

Postby Tsavo » Sun Jul 22, 2018 1:37 am

StraightForward wrote:
Tsavo wrote:
StraightForward wrote:Not sure why you feel the need to be condescending about this.


I don't know where you got condescending from. There is obvious academic value in attending dissections.


Your use of "majicked". No one is claiming magic, and there is a difference between magic and useful knowledge.

And the statement about everyone who reads becoming GP riders, and now the statement about Dr. Bennett. No one is saying that there is One Key to unlock riding stardom, but having comprehensive knowledge gives a solid foundation. The "majick" comes from a complex stew of talent, hard work, knowledge, good instruction, luck and a support system (financial and otherwise). I don't think it's useful to pooh pooh efforts to build one of the ingredients in that stew. One could just as easily say that lessons and clinics are useless because so few people who take lessons become GP riders.

If someone says that learning X improves their riding, I think you should believe them. It's condescending to say you know better than they do about their own learning process and its application to riding.

There are also many yardsticks with which to measure improvement in horsemanship, beyond advancing through dressage levels. I think after learning more about biomechanics I've become a more patient, sympathetic and thoughtful rider, which I'm sure my horses would agree is an improvement.


I am saying not only is there no evidence attending dissections matters in terms of riding and training but that it strains credulity to even suggest it might help.

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Re: Learning from dissection

Postby khall » Sun Jul 22, 2018 2:14 am

Tsavo that is your opinion and one I heartily do not agree with. Jillian K certainly does not agree with it and any decent horseman who searches to understand more about equine anatomy I am certain would not agree with it. I know I would much rather have an instructor that has a good biomechanics understanding than one who just rides and trains. IMO biomechanics is based on anatomy of the horse and an deeper understanding of how the horse functions. Anatomy is based on dissection.

Maybe if some of these "GP" riders bothered to attend a dissection or two there would be less of this: https://www.pinterest.com/pin/502995852105420183/ in the dressage world

I did not bring this topic up to go down the rollkur road, I found it interesting to read about the nuchal ligament and what it skeletally does according to the person who attended this dissection that the article was about. A good friend of mine is a DVM (holistic horrors! that does chiro and acupuncture) but her chiro was based on neurology anatomy which is quite fascinating and illuminating as she shared her learning with us many times in her lectures during clinics. ANS for one. Learning about the ANS really brought home to me why dressage works when done well, it stimulates the PNS.

Also a tidbit from JK during one of her lectures, true lateral flexion is at C1/occiput not C1/C2. The way the vertebrae are formed does not allow after C1 for lateral bending without rotating the spinal column because of the way the cervical vertebrae are conformed. Again this explains the ODGs when the horse is bent or flexed you should see just the corner of the inside eye, any more and it is incorrect bending i.e. the spinal column will rotate. But no one would know or understand this without having dissected a horse or two, which JK has.

SF I am right there with you. I thoroughly enjoy (and so does the riders at the clinics I've hosted over the years) the lectures on various equine topics most often focusing on some anatomical aspect of the horse.

tsavo it must be very limiting to be so closed minded.

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Re: Learning from dissection

Postby Tsavo » Sun Jul 22, 2018 2:24 am

I didn't know about those facts and here is my horse clearly flexed right.

How does knowing those anatomical facts change how you ride? How exactly do those facts change what you do to get a flexion?

This reminds me of the footfall threads wherein I tried to make the distinction between the thing and what you call the thing. People who know the footfall and people who don't know the footfall can still have the feel to know when to cue the inside hind. People with footfall knowledge call it "inside hind leaving the ground". I call it "joe". Same result. The feel is what matters, not what you call it.

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Re: Learning from dissection

Postby StraightForward » Sun Jul 22, 2018 2:46 am

Tsavo wrote:I didn't know about those facts and here is my horse clearly flexed right.

How does knowing those anatomical facts change how you ride? How exactly do those facts change what you do to get a flexion?

This reminds me of the footfall threads wherein I tried to make the distinction between the thing and what you call the thing. People who know the footfall and people who don't know the footfall can still have the feel to know when to cue the inside hind. People with footfall knowledge call it "inside hind leaving the ground". I call it "joe". Same result. The feel is what matters, not what you call it.



If my horse was having issues responding to my request for flexion, I'd be more inclined to wonder why, and if I could address the problem from another angle, rather than just amplifying the request for flexion.
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Re: Learning from dissection

Postby Tsavo » Sun Jul 22, 2018 3:01 am

But how exactly would you change your aiding based on knowing the anatomy of flexion at the poll in order to get a correct flexion? How would you aiding change? What would you do with seat leg and hand differently?

Occasionally in rehab my horse couldn't flex. I got off and flexed him in hand. When he was rehabbing in 2007 he could not flex right. We worked on that in hand. My trainer and I used feel, not anatomical knowledge, and we solved it. Thinking back, I can not even guess what book fact about anatomy would have changed anything we did.

In that photo he is flexing maximally as far as I can tell. That is more than eyelash. I work on stuff that needs to be worked on without anatomical knowledge.

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Re: Learning from dissection

Postby khall » Sun Jul 22, 2018 4:09 am

tsavo don't you work out with a trainer? Does that trainer target certain areas at different times depending on what you are wanting to achieve (i.e. stronger core etc)? Don't you think that trainer knows what muscles to target? Is that not based on dissection, even if the trainer did not dissect the cadaver themselves but rely on the information gleaned from the many dissections done in order to know and understand the human anatomy?

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Re: Learning from dissection

Postby khall » Sun Jul 22, 2018 4:33 am

Obviously other riders are as geeky as I and want to better understand the equine anatomy:

http://www.horsesinsideout.com/dissections.html

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Re: Learning from dissection

Postby kande50 » Sun Jul 22, 2018 8:22 am

Tsavo wrote:
If anatomical knowledge was helpful Deb Bennett would be the best rider and trainer in the world.


Really? If someone with extensive anatomical knowledge isn't the best rider in the world then anatomical knowledge couldn't possibly be helpful? :-)
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Re: Learning from dissection

Postby AmityBee » Sun Jul 22, 2018 10:16 am

khall wrote:I've always wanted to attend an equine dissection. Having a BS in Biology I've done dissections on smaller animals and have seen full sized articulated equine skeletons. I've also been present for small animal surgeries and necropsy but I have never seen an equine dissection. (learned muscles on a cat cadaver)


No thanks ;) :lol:

Working in med research, I do surgery and dissections on small lab animals myself (learned muscles on a goat cadaver ;) ). Plus we did excursions to the large animal pathology hall. Disgusting. Not happening again.

So, yes. I think knowing the anatomy of the horse is important to ride AND care for your animal. Would I love to go to a dissection for a deeper understanding? No. I rather stick to books myself.

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Re: Learning from dissection

Postby Tsavo » Sun Jul 22, 2018 12:25 pm

khall wrote:tsavo don't you work out with a trainer? Does that trainer target certain areas at different times depending on what you are wanting to achieve (i.e. stronger core etc)? Don't you think that trainer knows what muscles to target? Is that not based on dissection, even if the trainer did not dissect the cadaver themselves but rely on the information gleaned from the many dissections done in order to know and understand the human anatomy?


I will ask him if the exercises we do are done specifically with the anatomy knowledge in mind or if they were first developed empirically based on results.

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Re: Learning from dissection

Postby Tsavo » Sun Jul 22, 2018 12:26 pm

khall wrote:Obviously other riders are as geeky as I and want to better understand the equine anatomy:

http://www.horsesinsideout.com/dissections.html


Nothing wrong with that. I also have academic hobbies.

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Re: Learning from dissection

Postby Tsavo » Sun Jul 22, 2018 12:36 pm

AmityBee wrote:So, yes. I think knowing the anatomy of the horse is important to ride AND care for your animal.


Can you give an example of how you did some aspect of riding differently once you knew the anatomy?

khall wrote:

Also a tidbit from JK during one of her lectures, true lateral flexion is at C1/occiput not C1/C2. The way the vertebrae are formed does not allow after C1 for lateral bending without rotating the spinal column because of the way the cervical vertebrae are conformed. Again this explains the ODGs when the horse is bent or flexed you should see just the corner of the inside eye, any more and it is incorrect bending i.e. the spinal column will rotate. But no one would know or understand this without having dissected a horse or two, which JK has.


How does knowing the facts about C1 and C2 inform a person how to get correct flex instead of twisting with the aiding? I mean isn't it completely sufficient if you aid and the horses twists instead of flexes to do something else? How does this bit of knowledge inform the what else? Isn't it fair to say it doesn't?

Getting a correct flexion without involving the neck is something that every rider has to find. I wonder if a single rider could be found saying there is any nexus between the book anatomy and proprioception and tact.
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Re: Learning from dissection

Postby Tsavo » Sun Jul 22, 2018 12:37 pm

kande50 wrote:
Tsavo wrote:
If anatomical knowledge was helpful Deb Bennett would be the best rider and trainer in the world.


Really? If someone with extensive anatomical knowledge isn't the best rider in the world then anatomical knowledge couldn't possibly be helpful? :-)
.


Correct.

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Re: Learning from dissection

Postby Dresseur » Sun Jul 22, 2018 1:08 pm

Conformation is the sum of individual variances of the anatomy of a horse. So, why is this important? Because based on the conformation of the horse, I can make informed decisions about equipment and equipment position, particularly in longing, that makes me a better trainer. I can also make informed decisions on certain exercises, and can make pretty good guesses about certain predilections - and I can tailor exercises based on conformation (anatomy). That may change due to feel, but usually conformation is a good indicator of potential issues. That, in my mind, all makes me a better trainer, as well as rider because I can short circuit some of the stabbing in the dark trying to figure out how to approach a specific ride or horse. So, yes, I have a fascination with the anatomy and biomechanics of horses and have spend hours studying conformation. A dissection may not in of itself be useful to me, but conformation, which is based on anatomy is useful to everyone.

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Re: Learning from dissection

Postby StraightForward » Sun Jul 22, 2018 3:24 pm

Tsavo wrote:But how exactly would you change your aiding based on knowing the anatomy of flexion at the poll in order to get a correct flexion? How would you aiding change? What would you do with seat leg and hand differently?


Well, I would probably take stock of the rest of the horse's body and see if alignment was off. For instance, Annabelle often needs a little nudge with the knee to get her shoulders back in alignment before she can offer flexion. But if that didn't work, I would probably make another request, perhaps go ride several changes of bend, ask for some stretching out to the bridle, and then revisit the ask for flexion, having hopefully loosened up both sides of the neck and body to make it easier. On a really stuck horse, I'd probably get off and make sure that the jaw was active, since a clamped jaw will make the rest of the neck/poll rigid.
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Re: Learning from dissection

Postby Tsavo » Sun Jul 22, 2018 5:06 pm

Dresseur wrote:Conformation is the sum of individual variances of the anatomy of a horse. So, why is this important? Because based on the conformation of the horse, I can make informed decisions about equipment and equipment position, particularly in longing, that makes me a better trainer. I can also make informed decisions on certain exercises, and can make pretty good guesses about certain predilections - and I can tailor exercises based on conformation (anatomy). That may change due to feel, but usually conformation is a good indicator of potential issues. That, in my mind, all makes me a better trainer, as well as rider because I can short circuit some of the stabbing in the dark trying to figure out how to approach a specific ride or horse. So, yes, I have a fascination with the anatomy and biomechanics of horses and have spend hours studying conformation. A dissection may not in of itself be useful to me, but conformation, which is based on anatomy is useful to everyone.


Yes this is my point. If a horse has a long something or other, that obviously affects the movement whether or not you know the name of the long something or other or have physically seen the long something or other in a dissection.
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Re: Learning from dissection

Postby Tsavo » Sun Jul 22, 2018 5:10 pm

StraightForward wrote:
Tsavo wrote:But how exactly would you change your aiding based on knowing the anatomy of flexion at the poll in order to get a correct flexion? How would you aiding change? What would you do with seat leg and hand differently?


Well, I would probably take stock of the rest of the horse's body and see if alignment was off. For instance, Annabelle often needs a little nudge with the knee to get her shoulders back in alignment before she can offer flexion. But if that didn't work, I would probably make another request, perhaps go ride several changes of bend, ask for some stretching out to the bridle, and then revisit the ask for flexion, having hopefully loosened up both sides of the neck and body to make it easier. On a really stuck horse, I'd probably get off and make sure that the jaw was active, since a clamped jaw will make the rest of the neck/poll rigid.


I'm sorry I wasn't clear.

How would you ask for a flexion if your thought flexion was at C1-C2 versus how you would ask for flexion if you thought it was at Occiput-C1? How exactly would you translate the anatomical knowledge of a one level difference to a change in your aiding between those two scenarios in terms of hands, seat, and legs?

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Re: Learning from dissection

Postby khall » Sun Jul 22, 2018 5:41 pm

Two instances that knowing anatomy and physiology of the horse that helps when I am working horses:

Most of you know I do a good bit of in hand work with my horses from the work of Mark Russell who learned from NO. So I learned the details of working them in hand before I learned more about their anatomy. But because I do know more about anatomy now, I focus on certain aspects of that anatomy now during my in hand work. One is the focus on C1/occiput joint. I want to check that joint and see if the work I am doing is keeping it fluid and moveable. How I do it is to stand directly in front of the horse (now this is with my horses who are very used to me being in close proximity to them around their head and neck). I first ask the horse to release the head and neck out and down, then I ask for flexion at C1/occiput just where the inside corner of the eye (not the eyelash tsavo) can be seen if I was sitting on them. I ask first one side then the other wanting to feel the movement in that joint. It should be fluid and easy to do, but with some remedial horses that did not start in this manner it can be not easy or fluid. Keeping that in mind when I work these horses in hand I will then address it with more releases in the neck, more releases in TMJ, more lateral flexion etc depending on what they need. For the most part, my horses who have been worked or started in hand ala Mark move fluidly and easily and release the neck out and down with no issues. My filly did this easily from the get go.

So the second instance where knowing anatomy and physiology of the horse helps me in their work is when I will ask for the release of the TMJ. I do this in hand and I do this US, but I always first introduce it in hand. Very often the horse will have one side or the other that they will clamp on, Rip is on the left side. So I started early on being cognizant of this fact and like SF wrote, if they lock in the jaw they will lock in the rest of the body (also why I do not use flash nosebands and only loose cavesons). You first address this at a stand still but once the horse understands you can do moving releases at any time. I want a true release where the horse opens then chews and softens. At first it can be just minuscule but as they develop it should be a more pronounced release. It can be just a jaw release or it can be coupled with a release the neck out and down, just depends on feel here. But the reason this is so important is because of the PNS, releasing the TMJ stimulates the PNS, often horses will start yawning (especially ones who are having issues) and yawning and yawning. They are releasing the TMJ themselves there.

tsavo you can bet those pro golfers are working with swing trainers and those swing trainers know their anatomy.

If you recall there was an exercise physiologist that was coming to the US at one time (he developed the Balimo chair) who worked with the German dressage team riders. He was not an equestrian but he knew human anatomy and physiology and with that knowledge was able to help the elite riders to become better riders. If I remember correctly one of his go to exercises was skipping. Why I sometimes head to the barn skipping.

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Re: Learning from dissection

Postby Tsavo » Sun Jul 22, 2018 6:05 pm

Thanks for typing that out.

I do in-hand flexions also. When it is correct I call it "correct". When you get a correct flexion you may call it "movement at occiput-C1". Same result.

When it is incorrect and producing motion at C1-C2, I call it "tilting" followed by "not correct". When you get an incorrect flexion I assume you call it "movement at C1-C2 therefore wrong". Same result.

Do you approach the in-hand work differently after knowing the anatomy? How exactly do you approach it differently if so? What exactly do you do differently with your hand?

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Re: Learning from dissection

Postby StraightForward » Sun Jul 22, 2018 7:53 pm

Tsavo wrote:I'm sorry I wasn't clear.

How would you ask for a flexion if your thought flexion was at C1-C2 versus how you would ask for flexion if you thought it was at Occiput-C1? How exactly would you translate the anatomical knowledge of a one level difference to a change in your aiding between those two scenarios in terms of hands, seat, and legs?


Nobody said the aids would be necessarily different, but there is a lot more to riding than the mechanics of the aids. As I outlined, it would change my training approach, and also give me a better understanding of whether what I'm producing is correct or not. I think when you've only learned the textbook of what is correct, and not the underlying reasons, you don't have the tools to problem solve in a non-standard situation, or will have to spend more time on trial-and-error.
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Re: Learning from dissection

Postby Chisamba » Mon Jul 23, 2018 4:46 am

I think from artistic, medical and physiology standpoint knowing anatomy snd dissection is important.

Riding, I tend to agree with Tsavo in this. If you listen to what your living horse tells you, that is more important than a carcass. First, no two animals are anatomically identical. Second, horses, like humans, have to believe something is possible to attempt it. A rider has to introduce the horse to that belief.

A thousand dissections will not teach you how to do that.

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Re: Learning from dissection

Postby Tsavo » Mon Jul 23, 2018 9:47 am

I think the flexion example is one that completely blows any help from knowing anatomy out of the water. Once you are shown a correct flexion, it is obvious it is happening right behind the skull and not lower. Furthermore, it is obvious if the horse bends further down the neck there will be tilting. these things are obvious and don't require one iota of anatomical knowledge. You just need to be shown what is correct and go away and figure out how to get it. Correct flexion was arrived at through trial and error by the ODGs because it helps put the horse in one piece, not because they dissected horses. You can't look at a cadaver and know that flexion should happen behind the skull versus lower down. You learn that empirically from ridden work. There are no academic shortcuts. Dressage is the most empirically derived thing I have ever encountered. The non-obviousness and the lack of other ways to crack the nut besides wet saddle pads is the story of dressage.

Dressage is a cruel mistress.

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Re: Learning from dissection

Postby Dresseur » Mon Jul 23, 2018 12:44 pm

Well, there are two points of discussion on this thread. Some are referring to dissection, and some are referring to anatomy. You specifically asked for differences once you knew about the anatomy.
Tsavo wrote:Can you give an example of how you did some aspect of riding differently once you knew the anatomy?


So my point was, knowing the anatomy is helpful because it gives you a base to judge conformation on, and that knowledge can be a cheat code to some training and riding issues. So, if this is about dissection only, let's not confuse anatomy and dissection - because they were being used interchangeably a lot here. I will say, most people don't know where the cervical vertebrae actually lie in the neck - and once you are aware of that, it's easier to spot issues. A study of anatomy or watching a dissection will both give you that knowledge.

Also, maybe not for us little guys, but dissection, and advances in science have led to new learnings as well as pinpointed troubling trends, such as cervical joint arthritis. So, those people who are doing the dissections, are influencing our riding (maybe not yours or mine), but there is now actual proof that rollkur is damaging, and you know those carrot stretches that a lot of us do? They're really called dynamic mobilization exercises and they came about because of finding the axial muscles during dissection. So, while we didn't go to those dissections, we do benefit from the learnings from them. And, I'd imagine that if I had the chance to go, my understanding would be deeper as well.

https://thehorse.com/111085/the-incredible-equine-neck/
We’ve established a lot can go wrong with our horses’ necks—and much of it lies out of our control. But there’s an important link between the wellness of our horses’ necks and how we ride, our sources agree, and we can adapt our training styles to prolong their performance years and keep their necks healthy. The key lies in being flexible … on a number of levels.

“When you put a horse in a classic contact position, that’s supposed to be very good for the soft tissues (muscles, ligaments, and tendons),” Hepburn explains. “But it also narrows the vertebral canal and the intervertebral foramen (the opening between vertebrae), so you increase the risk of spinal (as well as peripheral nerve root) compression to occur.”

A horse that’s suffered a neck injury or is dealing with neck pain or stiffness from arthritis or poor riding can benefit greatly from physical therapy and specific exercises, say our sources. In fact, they can be very beneficial even to horses without neck pain. (snip) ... Clayton says she encourages owners to strengthen the short stabilizing muscles around the cervical vertebrae with very specific dynamic mobilization exercises (designed to promote movement in the joint tissues). Using a carrot as bait, handlers can bring horses’ chins to their upper chests, between their knees, between their fetlocks, and around to each side in a low head position, maintaining these positions for at least three to five seconds. Clayton, Stubbs, and colleague Nicole Rombach, APM, MEEBW, CBW, MSc, PhD, recently used automated motion analysis technology and ultrasound evaluations to confirm that these exercises mobilize the joints in the neck and back and, more importantly, strengthen the short stabilizing muscles. That’s likely to improve neck and back health, Clayton says.

While some neck issues can have lasting consequences, many can be resolved through veterinary management in conjunction with proper physical therapy and adjusted training techniques.

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Re: Learning from dissection

Postby khall » Mon Jul 23, 2018 1:03 pm

tsavo dissection is the ONLY way it was found that lateral flexion can only occur between C1/occiput without the vertebrae having to roll. Originally it was thought that lateral flexion was between C1/C2 it was only through dissection that is was discovered that lateral flexion is impossible between C1/C2 due to the vertebrae conformation. This is from Jillian K from her dissections that she has attended.

I use this knowledge to isolate and check that joint and it's mobility. I also use the knowledge of the rotation of the spinal column when working a horse, that is why when the horse is properly bent in work they will shift the weight to the outside of the bend specifically to the outside shoulder. So when I work a horse in SI they will shift that weight into the outside shoulder as the spine rotates in the bend. It is with the engagement and collection that the shoulders then lift and lighten.

So I guess chisamba and tsavo has no use for biomechanics in their work. It is just about riding. While I certainly agree riding is very important as well as developing feel, there should be an understanding of correct biomechanics otherwise you would just be riding willy nilly. Those biomechanics are based on the anatomy of the horse. We would not understand anatomy without dissection. Now should ever rider attend a dissection? IMO yes we should, if nothing else to give us an deeper appreciation for the horse. Will it make or break you as a rider? No. For correct riding though is that not based on biomechanics which absolutely is based on dissection. So the information is disseminated from dissection for a better understanding of how the horse works. The innervations, the skeletal makeup, the muscle groups and how they interact (think the all important sling) only through dissection is that information found.

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Re: Learning from dissection

Postby Chisamba » Mon Jul 23, 2018 2:10 pm

Someone has the gall to say I am snarky.

You cannot see biomechanics in a carcass. A body lying on the ground does not behave like a standing living held body. A dissection shows mostly anatomy, anything else is supposed or deducted and therefore subject to error.


In your dissection did you discuss fluid, gravity, blood pressure, and neurology and how these influence balance.


.

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Re: Learning from dissection

Postby Tsavo » Mon Jul 23, 2018 3:20 pm

Khall, my point is that the bottleneck to correct riding will never be an academic issue.

You can become a good rider without knowing anatomy.

Anatomy will never magically impart proprioception, tact, and timing.

Obviously people, notably the SRS, were riding around with correct flexion before the anatomical studies. How do you explain that? It is obvious correct flexion is done at the level of the skull without any anatomical studies. Are you saying you didn't know and couldn't recognize or ride correct flexion before hearing about the anatomical study? If you needed to be told where the flexion occurs then why didn't your instructor show you before then?

Am I missing something?? How do you explain that I am riding correct flexion in that photo without knowing the anatomy prior?

Dresser, I am trying to distinguish the what from the how. The anatomical studies on effects of rollkur say what happens. The studies in no way inform one iota of how to ride rollkur and how not the ride rollkur. That is my only point. Nobody is going to instantly get better at riding from any or all anatomical studies. It is academic.

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Re: Learning from dissection

Postby Tsavo » Mon Jul 23, 2018 3:22 pm

Chisamba wrote:Someone has the gall to say I am snarky.

You cannot see biomechanics in a carcass. A body lying on the ground does not behave like a standing living held body. A dissection shows mostly anatomy, anything else is supposed or deducted and therefore subject to error.


In your dissection did you discuss fluid, gravity, blood pressure, and neurology and how these influence balance.


.


Good point. Biomechanics is not to be conflated with either anatomy as thru a dissection or any of it speeding the learning to ride.

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Re: Learning from dissection

Postby Tsavo » Mon Jul 23, 2018 3:26 pm

khall wrote:tsavo dissection is the ONLY way it was found that lateral flexion can only occur between C1/occiput without the vertebrae having to roll. Originally it was thought that lateral flexion was between C1/C2 it was only through dissection that is was discovered that lateral flexion is impossible between C1/C2 due to the vertebrae conformation. This is from Jillian K from her dissections that she has attended.

I use this knowledge to isolate and check that joint and it's mobility.


The only thing that matters is if the flexion is correct or not. It is irrelevant what people think about where there is movement is happening since it doesn't affect learning how to get it once you know what correct is which is not dependent on a knowledge of anatomy.

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Re: Learning from dissection

Postby Ryeissa » Mon Jul 23, 2018 3:40 pm

Ultimately the good riders use the principles of biomechanics they just call it something else.

ie "spiral seat" or throasic sling. All are used in half halts and symmetrical riding.

Some of us just relate more to ideas of the body- Ie- I am a biologist too, and my riding has been revoluitionized with concrete reasons for classical principles.

I am also trained as a horse massage therapist. Everyone learns a different way.

I think anatomy is fun, and interesting, and it's so relevant.

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Re: Learning from dissection

Postby Tsavo » Mon Jul 23, 2018 4:04 pm

Ryeissa wrote:... and my riding has been revoluitionized with concrete reasons for classical principles.


Can you give some examples of how knowing anatomy was the bottleneck in being able to execute a correct aid where you weren't able to do it before reading about the anatomy?

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Re: Learning from dissection

Postby khall » Mon Jul 23, 2018 4:15 pm

IMO these questions are appropriate for this discussion:

Is equine biomechanics based on the anatomy of the horse? Yes it is
Can you understand the anatomy of the horse without dissection? No you cannot

http://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/2012/1 ... important/

http://wagnerhorsedoc.com/2016/04/equin ... ocomotion/

http://www.equicanis.com/courses/equino ... -lameness/

All of these courses are based on an understanding of equine anatomy. So tsavo and chisamba you may be riding with some understanding but studying biomechanics and anatomy leads to much greater understanding of how the horse moves underneath us. Tsavo this should especially be appropriate to you since you are dealing with lameness in your horse. I would love to know more which is why I would love to attend a dissection.

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Re: Learning from dissection

Postby khall » Mon Jul 23, 2018 4:28 pm

More:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkICCPSgjAI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNqJPxau37s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLkmVVKF17I

Why limit yourself? Why take just your instructors word on your riding and how your horse is going?


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